Roy desires to be higher on the Tier List

[LSDX]

I think in the end, if people want Roy to be higher on the tier list, someone is going to actually have to do well with him.

http://challonge.com/rc1amateur

amateur bracket of 43, but better than any results y'all have to offer

 

[lolazerz]

http://challonge.com/rc1amateur

amateur bracket of 43, but better than any results y'all have to offer

I think by do well he meant it as well know / recognized Roy main. Like people in different regions know your name because you do well with this character.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I have really strong opinions/feelings on the viability of Roy. He has the potential to go far if solo-mained and has excellent niche as a counterpick for certain players/stages/characters. Marth outclasses him, but nowhere near as much as people think. Roy isn't top 8, but he's up there. If people are willing to exit the mid-2000's for IC's, Yoshi, and Pikachu, then I hope they can do it for Roy.

Roy is at the right tier and is hovering around the right position in the low-tier (Zelda should be lower than him though). His position in the list all comes down to the shortcomings he has, disadvantages that other characters above him don't suffer from. Most of these characters above him can still do what he does with much less difficulty, and one mess-up with him can severely hinder him in high-level play.

So yes, he does have combos, he has tools, and he can win even his hardest matchups through smart use of DD, side-B, down-tilt, CC and overall a ton of hard work invested in him. But concerning his tier list position, (and according to the title, this is what this topic is about), regardless of how many things he might be able to do, fact remains that he's outperformed at the highest levels: the majority of characters above him can do many of the things he does without worrying about his shortcomings.

The important thing to remember is that a tier list doesn't tell you who you should play: a tier list tells you how each character performs compared to the rest of the cast. Yes, Roy does have things going for him, and although it is possible to win when invested enough time in him, it's really difficult to make full use of his advantages and negate his shortcomings.

But hey, please feel free to prove us wrong if you truly believe Roy should be higher. Become as good as you can with him. If you love Roy, and love playing as him, then keep on going. You're gonna have more fun playing as a character you love rather than playing one you don't.

You seem to be one of the very, very few who can discuss Roy and make perfect sense. I agree with this. Everyone else is stuck in 2004 and early 2005 for Roy, when he was around Yoshi/IC's/Pika for a really long time no matter where he shifted. I think he's about as good as those three specifically (I don't agree with IC's being top 8 at all, I think they're Yoshi/Pika good though) and aim to prove it. Everyone either overrates him and acts like he's a top 8, or they act like he has no potential whatsoever. There's been little to no originality in Roy discussion for almost a decade, and it's refreshing to see some.

Sethlon gave it his all with Roy and didn't achieve a thing. Yoshi and Mewtwo do have extremely glaring weaknesses like Roy (Mewtwo is light as a feather with a gigantic hitbox and Yoshi has no answer to shield pressure along with being extremely vulnerable if he doesn't have his second jump) however, unlike Roy both of these characters have strengths that can be used against someone who doesn't know how to properly exploit their weaknesses. Mewtwo has a great grab game, a decent defensive option in his up-b, as well as a decent combo game. Yoshi has double jump cancel combos, parrying, and subtractive knockback armor on his double jump making him somewhat difficult to edgeguard without the proper timing. Roy on the other hand has very little he can do that Marth can't do better. Pretty much the only thing Roy can do that Marth can't is follow up on down tilt with an aerial. Marth has a better recovery and considering that his recovery is decidedly mediocre it really shows just how bad Roy's is. Other than that Marth's moves are universally less laggy, have better hitbox placement, give more follow ups, come out faster, and deal more damage when spaced correctly. Marth also has better OoS options than Roy and considering that Marth really only has 2 good OoS options (Wavedash and up-b) and one decent one (Dair) that says a lot.

Many players have given Fox/Marth/Sheik their all for years and have gotten nowhere. You think one example matters for Roy? Are you going to hide behind one player's shortcomings and use that to excuse your own potential or potential of other players with Roy? At least use neo as an example, he beat top players and made lots of money primarily with Roy, and didn't invest more than a few years. Not a god-tier Roy but he has a solid foundation that needs to be built on. If more people attempted to build on his foundation and innovate on their own instead of fanboy over okay Roys, copy them, and hide behind their failures, we'd see more Roys placing.

Yoshi and Mewtwo are outclassed hard by Marth as well and Marth does practically everything better than both of them, yet you're still downplaying Roy a lot. He may be a clone of Marth, but he has a good amount of tools and some niche factors over Marth. I see him as an excellent counterpick character that is be better than Marth in a good amount of character/player/stage spreads, and I still see a lot in solo-maining Roy. You act like Yoshi's recovery is so unpredictable and good, then give a character with a ton of recovery mixups nothing. Edgeguarding is starting to matter less and less in a game where vertical kill moves/confirms are becoming more dominant (which Roy's fall speed is excellent at averting), and where characters flat-out die off the side or bottom blastzones more often. You should lose your stock if you're being pressured offstage no matter who you are, anyways. You can be as tricky as you want but missed punishes can only be excused to a certain extent. Roy still has DED swings, saving his jump, good DI (can take advantage of when other characters would die when you wouldn't easier for more room to manuever), he doesn't fall to the Marthslayer edgeguard, and he can drastically angle Blazer to be tricky.

Marth is better but this honestly doesn't hold back Roy from moving up a good chunk of spots in the slightest at full potential. His neutral and punish game are very strong. You should kill many characters off one dthrow at 0 with competent tech chasing, a stray sweespot fair at 60-70 should lead into 3-4 more hits or a finisher, and you have tools to punish a lot. Even Peach/Puff can eat huge Roy combos at mid percents, and the characters Roy can't tech chase to death (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser, a handful of others) are ones Roy usually beats. Just because players suck with Roy's punish game and don't have the balls to follow up a lot of stuff or put more effort into beating all of an opponent's options so that they can't do anything about a combo even after they exit hitstun doesn't mean Roy has bad punishes or combo tools. Almost everything in his general kit is a good combo tool. Regrab, regrab, regrab. Experiment and innovate. Blazer OoS is really good, especially versus shine pressure and whiffed attacks. Even better than Samus's imo. It's good simply to rack up damage and swat someone away, like Samus's, and it knocks spacies away a lot farther than they should go, considering their properties versus Blazer. SH Dair and wavedash OoS are still really good for Roy. Reverse Blazer can kill in some character/stage MU's at 0 since its knockback is fixed, but it's still super overrated. It's there, though.

I'm not saying that Roy is top 8, but he's not anywhere near bottom 8. Seeing someone say his MU with spacies on FD is 25/75 in their favor is just something that makes me snicker quite a bit. Don't just braindead cg with him and play the character wrong to where you can't get good followups. Learn tech chasing as it's guaranteed on every stage, rewards you more both in short and long term, and is something Roy has much more utility with. Fthrow and dthrow and experiment. Look in more places, innovate and create, challenge yourself as a player more. Roy is difficult to optimize but he will give you a lot as a player and a lot to win, this is the essence of a Fire Emblem lord. Maybe a decent Roy didn't change much, but that's just one player who doesn't believe in himself enough and push himself enough. This isn't just from outside observations, this is from Skype conversations with him where I've firsthand seen his self doubt beat him.

The problem is that his combos are difficult to set up, mostly just d-tilt(his only combo tool). Plus you don't get much out of his combos. Another factor in why Roy would be placed this low would be His terrible approach options.

Why would you main Roy if he's low in your eyes without the potential to climb, though? I honestly don't see the point. You're better off with Marth or another top pick if you really do feel that way and don't see potential.

http://challonge.com/rc1amateur

amateur bracket of 43, but better than any results y'all have to offer

This is good. You didn't even drop a game until the very end which is probably the most noteworthy part. I've been playing Smash competitively for less than a year (studying competitive smash for years, not maining Roy until 2014), but I got 9th out of 60ish people in a normal bracket with solo Roy in a good region (CO) at my first tournament. I rarely do get to travel, but many of my improvements and fine-tuning should show when I get another opportunity via work and smash hopefully colliding well again. I have to drive a few hours for Smash and have a randomly-generated full-time work schedule, so I'm biding my time and training hard. Maybe I haven't entered Melee for a while, but I'm looking to do big things if I can end up lucky and go to Summit 7 and Melee Mondays this Sun and next Mon-Tue from what I requested. I spend too much time on Smash 4, with it being the only game I can play online. This thread's motivated me to look seriously into Melee again, because Roy still needs heroes in Melee. I have more than enough in fundamentals and mental game now to afford solo practice for a while.

 

[NJzFinest]

@ dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523 great post. This is pretty much exactly how I feel about Roy.

Hopefully I'm able to do damage over the next few months, we'll see :0

 

[Delta Chae]

Many players have given Fox/Marth/Sheik their all for years and have gotten nowhere. You think one example matters for Roy? Are you going to hide behind one player's shortcomings and use that to excuse your own potential or potential of other players with Roy? At least use neo as an example, he beat top players and made lots of money primarily with Roy, and didn't invest more than a few years. Not a god-tier Roy but he has a solid foundation that needs to be built on. If more people attempted to build on his foundation and innovate on their own instead of fanboy over okay Roys, copy them, and hide behind their failures, we'd see more Roys placing.

Yoshi and Mewtwo are outclassed hard by Marth as well and Marth does practically everything better than both of them, yet you're still downplaying Roy a lot. He may be a clone of Marth, but he has a good amount of tools and some niche factors over Marth. I see him as an excellent counterpick character that is be better than Marth in a good amount of character/player/stage spreads, and I still see a lot in solo-maining Roy. You act like Yoshi's recovery is so unpredictable and good, then give a character with a ton of recovery mixups nothing. Edgeguarding is starting to matter less and less in a game where vertical kill moves/confirms are becoming more dominant (which Roy's fall speed is excellent at averting), and where characters flat-out die off the side or bottom blastzones more often. You should lose your stock if you're being pressured offstage no matter who you are, anyways. You can be as tricky as you want but missed punishes can only be excused to a certain extent. Roy still has DED swings, saving his jump, good DI (can take advantage of when other characters would die when you wouldn't easier for more room to manuever), he doesn't fall to the Marthslayer edgeguard, and he can drastically angle Blazer to be tricky.

Marth is better but this honestly doesn't hold back Roy from moving up a good chunk of spots in the slightest at full potential. His neutral and punish game are very strong. You should kill many characters off one dthrow at 0 with competent tech chasing, a stray sweespot fair at 60-70 should lead into 3-4 more hits or a finisher, and you have tools to punish a lot. Even Peach/Puff can eat huge Roy combos at mid percents, and the characters Roy can't tech chase to death (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser, a handful of others) are ones Roy usually beats. Just because players suck with Roy's punish game and don't have the balls to follow up a lot of stuff or put more effort into beating all of an opponent's options so that they can't do anything about a combo even after they exit hitstun doesn't mean Roy has bad punishes or combo tools. Almost everything in his general kit is a good combo tool. Regrab, regrab, regrab. Experiment and innovate. Blazer OoS is really good, especially versus shine pressure and whiffed attacks. Even better than Samus's imo. It's good simply to rack up damage and swat someone away, like Samus's, and it knocks spacies away a lot farther than they should go, considering their properties versus Blazer. SH Dair and wavedash OoS are still really good for Roy. Reverse Blazer can kill in some character/stage MU's at 0 since its knockback is fixed, but it's still super overrated. It's there, though.

I'm not saying that Roy is top 8, but he's not anywhere near bottom 8. Seeing someone say his MU with spacies on FD is 25/75 in their favor is just something that makes me snicker quite a bit. Don't just braindead cg with him and play the character wrong to where you can't get good followups. Learn tech chasing as it's guaranteed on every stage, rewards you more both in short and long term, and is something Roy has much more utility with. Fthrow and dthrow and experiment. Look in more places, innovate and create, challenge yourself as a player more. Roy is difficult to optimize but he will give you a lot as a player and a lot to win, this is the essence of a Fire Emblem lord. Maybe a decent Roy didn't change much, but that's just one player who doesn't believe in himself enough and push himself enough. This isn't just from outside observations, this is from Skype conversations with him where I've firsthand seen his self doubt beat him.

You're taking everything I've said completely out of context or you've just flat out ignored it. Players that don't achieve anything with a top tier typically don't do so for a number of reasons but the limitations of their character is not one of the them. Roy's frame data and hitbox properties simply are not conducive to a good character. The top tiers on the other hand have the data that shows what their true potential is. You can't say "it just takes the right player" when Roy's data is so bad that anyone who plays him is essentially playing with a potential limiter.

First of all: when was the last time NEO entered a national Melee tournament? The last time NEO entered a Melee tournament was all the way back in 2006 when the metagame was still developing and the gap between good and bad characters was not nearly as pronounced as it is now. Sethlon is pretty much the only example of a good Roy player in Melee now and up until around 2010ish his play was really pushing Roy as far as he could go, it was around that time that he hit the "cap" if you will with Roy. Don't delude yourself, there isn't some sort of hidden potential in Roy's data, Roy is a bad character and you can't get around that. Here's a list of just a few of the things that are wrong with Roy: his attacks are universally more laggy in both start-up and ending than Marth's, his attacks even when spaced properly are not nearly as rewarding on hit as Marth's are resulting in Roy having very few followup opportunities, he has one of the worst recoveries in the game, his main finisher can't kill until late percents well after you can reasonably combo into it, and he's combo food.

I never said that Yoshi's recovery was unpredictable, it's one of the most predictable recoveries in the game but the subtractive knockback armor makes it more difficult to deal with than it would otherwise be. A predictable recovery is not necessarily an easily edgeguarded recovery. By the way, Roy's fall speed does almost nothing to help his vertical endurance, his gravity is just below the threshold where it actually makes a noticeable difference and in fact would hinder it in certain cases such as Fox's up throw to up air which is guaranteed on Roy at almost any percent as a result of this with it's ridiculous knockback completely negating any help Roy might receive from his above average gravity. As far as being off stage goes, Roy's recovery is absolutely abysmal even with good DI, you're seriously overselling how much angling Blazer can actually help you and not being vulnerable to the Marth Slayer is no consolation for his recovery granting almost no horizontal or vertical distance and being extremely easy to edgehog.

You really think that Roy can kill someone off of a single down throw? If that character's tech rolls are as bad as Game and Watch's then yes, I agree, but almost every other character has much better tech-rolls and even if you get the tech-chase what are you going to do with it? Re-grab? That's probably your only good option and Roy's tech chases are not nearly as good as Marth's or Falcon's. Roy's fair does not lead into nearly as many followups as you seem to think it does, even when sweetspotted Roy's attacks rarely put the opponent in enough hitstun to allow followups meaning that Roy has to fish for his kills, something that none of the top 8 have to worry about when played properly. Also, did you seriously just say that Blazer OoS is a good option? Maybe in Smash 4 where it can actually kill at high percents but not in Melee where it does hardly any knockback or hitstun, the main reason this is a terrible OoS option is because the landing lag makes it highly punishable since it hardly sends your opponent anywhere. As for Reverse Blazer, only works on Jigglypuff, Pichu, and Game and Watch. Pichu and Game and Watch never see play at the top level and it's only good on Jigglypuff if you're punishing a whiffed Rest so that isn't nearly enough to offset the numerous other advantages Puff has against Roy and doesn't even work at all on Dreamland.

You want to know why people say Roy is bad? Because he's bad. Seriously, why is it so hard for people to just admit this and move on? You keep saying that Roy players need to tech-chase more, well how are they supposed to do that when Roy's dash-dance sucks and and he doesn't have any way of compensating for that like Sheik does? Sethlon plays PM Roy for a reason, PM Roy is actually good. His nair is objectively better, his bair is harder to land properly but is a reliable finisher, his dair is easier to sweetspot and can't be meteor cancelled, his dsmash is a reliable finisher and is easier to land, his usmash lands all the hits more consistently, and his moves actually cause enough hitstun to allow followups.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

You're taking everything I've said completely out of context or you've just flat out ignored it. Players that don't achieve anything with a top tier typically don't do so for a number of reasons but the limitations of their character is not one of the them. Roy's frame data and hitbox properties simply are not conducive to a good character. The top tiers on the other hand have the data that shows what their true potential is. You can't say "it just takes the right player" when Roy's data is so bad that anyone who plays him is essentially playing with a potential limiter.

First of all: when was the last time NEO entered a national Melee tournament? The last time NEO entered a Melee tournament was all the way back in 2006 when the metagame was still developing and the gap between good and bad characters was not nearly as pronounced as it is now. Sethlon is pretty much the only example of a good Roy player in Melee now and up until around 2010ish his play was really pushing Roy as far as he could go, it was around that time that he hit the "cap" if you will with Roy. Don't delude yourself, there isn't some sort of hidden potential in Roy's data, Roy is a bad character and you can't get around that. Here's a list of just a few of the things that are wrong with Roy: his attacks are universally more laggy in both start-up and ending than Marth's, his attacks even when spaced properly are not nearly as rewarding on hit as Marth's are resulting in Roy having very few followup opportunities, he has one of the worst recoveries in the game, his main finisher can't kill until late percents well after you can reasonably combo into it, and he's combo food.

I never said that Yoshi's recovery was unpredictable, it's one of the most predictable recoveries in the game but the subtractive knockback armor makes it more difficult to deal with than it would otherwise be. A predictable recovery is not necessarily an easily edgeguarded recovery. By the way, Roy's fall speed does almost nothing to help his vertical endurance, his gravity is just below the threshold where it actually makes a noticeable difference and in fact would hinder it in certain cases such as Fox's up throw to up air which is guaranteed on Roy at almost any percent as a result of this with it's ridiculous knockback completely negating any help Roy might receive from his above average gravity. As far as being off stage goes, Roy's recovery is absolutely abysmal even with good DI, you're seriously overselling how much angling Blazer can actually help you and not being vulnerable to the Marth Slayer is no consolation for his recovery granting almost no horizontal or vertical distance and being extremely easy to edgehog.

You really think that Roy can kill someone off of a single down throw? If that character's tech rolls are as bad as Game and Watch's then yes, I agree, but almost every other character has much better tech-rolls and even if you get the tech-chase what are you going to do with it? Re-grab? That's probably your only good option and Roy's tech chases are not nearly as good as Marth's or Falcon's. Roy's fair does not lead into nearly as many followups as you seem to think it does, even when sweetspotted Roy's attacks rarely put the opponent in enough hitstun to allow followups meaning that Roy has to fish for his kills, something that none of the top 8 have to worry about when played properly. Also, did you seriously just say that Blazer OoS is a good option? Maybe in Smash 4 where it can actually kill at high percents but not in Melee where it does hardly any knockback or hitstun, the main reason this is a terrible OoS option is because the landing lag makes it highly punishable since it hardly sends your opponent anywhere. As for Reverse Blazer, only works on Jigglypuff, Pichu, and Game and Watch. Pichu and Game and Watch never see play at the top level and it's only good on Jigglypuff if you're punishing a whiffed Rest so that isn't nearly enough to offset the numerous other advantages Puff has against Roy and doesn't even work at all on Dreamland.

You want to know why people say Roy is bad? Because he's bad. Seriously, why is it so hard for people to just admit this and move on? You keep saying that Roy players need to tech-chase more, well how are they supposed to do that when Roy's dash-dance sucks and and he doesn't have any way of compensating for that like Sheik does? Sethlon plays PM Roy for a reason, PM Roy is actually good. His nair is objectively better, his bair is harder to land properly but is a reliable finisher, his dair is easier to sweetspot and can't be meteor cancelled, his dsmash is a reliable finisher and is easier to land, his usmash lands all the hits more consistently, and his moves actually cause enough hitstun to allow followups.

I get cash money 0 to death tech chases 24/7, even on Falco's tech roll

Roy's tech chases > Marth's, not as good as Falcon's

Yea Blazer OoS is excellent and I explained why lol, has too much knockback to be punished in a lot of MU's and platforms make it easy to get away with, plus ledge cancel aerials after Blazer are sexy. That's one thing Roys need to push, he has some of the best ledge canceling.

If Roy can win in 05/06 then it should be easy 15/16. Good players are still good, the meta is more friendly to a skilled Roy, and there's a lot more to innovate and work with. Things that universally affect the cast like light powershield and ledge cancels are gonna be completely lit for Roy.

Roy doesn't have to fish for kills if you tech chase into a kill move, set up a landing trap, shield poke them with frame 6 dsmash, only go ham with throwing that raw fsmash if it's gonna push them onto the ledge or any raw smash if you read them (I know it sounds bad but everything about Roy is bad to you so idc about making anything sound bad and reads will always exist even in optimal play), do a DI mixup and catch them with fsmash, edgeguard well, gimp with fair, and probably more my sleepy ass is missing.

Play with sweetspot fair or first hit of nair -> land more, you'll like it I promise

Roy's dash dance is excellent and he's got the tools to cover other stuff. You have a dash dance and grab range almost as good as Marth, a lot of Roy's frame data is beast. He can follow up tech chases better than Sheik.

People play PM Roy cause PM is easy to win $$$ in. PM Roy wasn't even changed much, that's cause Roy was mostly fine to begin with.

I know you're gonna outright hate this/become livid at it and it's just gonna be us taking each other's stuff out of context and ignoring everything for what we want to specifically pick apart, so I'm peacing outta this thread. I thought about it and didn't feel like typing much more. Imma beat the gods with Roy smfh. If he can decimate Idoun then he can win over Armada.

 

[Delta Chae]

I get cash money 0 to death tech chases 24/7, even on Falco's tech roll

Roy's tech chases > Marth's, not as good as Falcon's

Yea Blazer OoS is excellent and I explained why lol, has too much knockback to be punished in a lot of MU's and platforms make it easy to get away with, plus ledge cancel aerials after Blazer are sexy. That's one thing Roys need to push, he has some of the best ledge canceling.

If Roy can win in 05/06 then it should be easy 15/16. Good players are still good, the meta is more friendly to a skilled Roy, and there's a lot more to innovate and work with. Things that universally affect the cast like light powershield and ledge cancels are gonna be completely lit for Roy.

Roy doesn't have to fish for kills if you tech chase into a kill move, set up a landing trap, shield poke them with frame 6 dsmash, only go ham with throwing that raw fsmash if it's gonna push them onto the ledge or any raw smash if you read them (I know it sounds bad but everything about Roy is bad to you so idc about making anything sound bad and reads will always exist even in optimal play), do a DI mixup and catch them with fsmash, edgeguard well, gimp with fair, and probably more my sleepy *** is missing.

Play with sweetspot fair or first hit of nair -> land more, you'll like it I promise

Roy's dash dance is excellent and he's got the tools to cover other stuff. You have a dash dance and grab range almost as good as Marth, a lot of Roy's frame data is beast. He can follow up tech chases better than Sheik.

People play PM Roy cause PM is easy to win $$$ in. PM Roy wasn't even changed much, that's cause Roy was mostly fine to begin with.

I know you're gonna outright hate this/become livid at it and it's just gonna be us taking each other's stuff out of context and ignoring everything for what we want to specifically pick apart, so I'm peacing outta this thread. I thought about it and didn't feel like typing much more. Imma beat the gods with Roy smfh. If he can decimate Idoun then he can win over Armada.

I'm not even going to bother with this because most of what you're saying is either wishful thinking or blatant lies. If you're so good with Roy why haven't we seen you win a regional?

 

[NIFOFD]

You can write a novel on the viability of Roy, but until someone actually wins something notable, I'll still say he sucks.