Roy 3.5

[Pitzer]

Its KB angle is 37 iirc, which is lower than standard horizontal (45).

Thank you Based Strong Bad.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Hey guys
Forgive me

 

[Leafeon]

View attachment 30340 Hey guys

We done.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Something I've noticed with Roy's upsmash is that when opponents SDI they will sometimes get sent at a downward angle like a spike. Is this new because I never had this happen in 3.0.2 and it's happened a couple times already in 3.5

 

[Leafeon]

Something I've noticed with Roy's new upsmash is that when opponents SDI they will sometimes get sent at a downward angle like a spike. Is this new because I never had this happen in 3.0.2 and it's happened a couple times already in 3.5

Nothing new here.

 

[CyberZixx]

I really wonder why the sweetspot hitbox will lessened. I guess they felt it was too strong with a spike and the bigger oh well. We just gotta be real good, and getting one is always hype. I find it the most satisfying spike in the game at least.

 

[Charmilio]

Am I the only one who doesn't like his new sword swing sound effects?

This.

Other than Uair taking some time to get reacquainted with, Roy actually feels slightly better overall to me, and I think the increased walk speed has a lot to do with that more fluid movement. He just feels easier to get around with, but I think that's the general airdodging changes doing that more than anything. DED feels more like Melee which I like, and honestly the grab range doesn't matter since Roy should be using JC grabs anyways.

New taunts are literally top tier now. Only surpassed by Ocarina and Ganon's Sword.

 

[ShadowGanon]

New taunts are literally top tier now. Only surpassed by Ocarina and Ganon's Sword.

The new taunts look great and all, but his up taunt is no longer able to taunt cancel

And... To be honest... I miss his d-air meteor...

 

[Pitzer]

View attachment 30340 Hey guys
Forgive me

Sakurai pls stop kicking us.

 

[G13_Flux]

it almost does feel like tipped dairs are easier to land. although i also thought TLs up b height got higher (which i though i was 100% positive about, although it wasnt in the changelogs) and that turned out to be wrong. so who knows.

the sweetspot dair hitbox is still pretty easy to land after dtilts, but i think the other big change that makes it harder to land at other times is the fact that the second, shoulder hitbox was made to not be part of that sweetspot. since the sweetspot doesnt take priority, its almost impossible to land on grounded opponents now, and it also means that you have to start the dair earlier, so that the closest non-sweetspot hitbox isnt touching them (the one that was previously a sweetspot). the classic ken combo is extremely difficult now i have to say and im not sure how much use roy is going to get out of it. it would be nice if at least the sweetspot took priority, but maybe with some more practice it will get easier. dtilt to dair is going to remain staple though.

 

[ninjuh1124]

I really wonder why the sweetspot hitbox will lessened. I guess they felt it was too strong with a spike and the bigger oh well. We just gotta be real good, and getting one is always hype. I find it the most satisfying spike in the game at least.

I personally don't really care. I mostly use d-air sourspot to tech-chase on level ground or continue a SHFFL combo when I get bored of f-air.

 

[Pitzer]

Tipper Dairs are the future of roy's edge guarding <3

Also Im playing on Netplay for the most part I got 1st like some time, but Im back at 2nd. However I'm going to keep grinding!

 

[Ghetto Blush]

So I'm almost positive nair got ninja nerfed. It feels like in 3.5 it's a lot harder for your opponent to get stuck in the nair, which results in it just clipping your opponent for like 4%.

 

[Hellrazor]

So I'm almost positive nair got ninja nerfed. It feels like in 3.5 it's a lot harder for your opponent to get stuck in the nair, which results in it just clipping your opponent for like 4%.

The tracer seems smaller. Not sure if it's a hitbox or artistic change. But I've felt like nair was a tad harder to land than before.

 

[Binary Clone]

Has anyone confirmed that only the one hitbox sweetspots with the dair? I was just spending some time in debug mode and it seems like the 2nd hitbox will still allow a sweetspot.

 

[G13_Flux]

Has anyone confirmed that only the one hitbox sweetspots with the dair? I was just spending some time in debug mode and it seems like the 2nd hitbox will still allow a sweetspot.

im almost 100% percent positive. and i only dont say 100% because i havent gotten a developers confirm on it. just stand right up next to an opponent with your back facing them, and try to spike them. you really cant. put them up on a platform and try to jump up facing away from them, and make the shoulder hitbox connect. it just pops them up. ive tested this in debug mode alot, and im very positive that its only that itty bitty circle over his head that causes the spike.

 

[Sethlon]

Both of the body hitboxes are spike hitboxes. His blade hitboxes take priority over the body ones, however, so for you to actually land a spike, you need to be hitting with the body hitboxes and ONLY the body hitboxes.

 

[Hellrazor]

Both of the body hitboxes are spike hitboxes. His blade hitboxes take priority over the body ones, however, so for you to actually land a spike, you need to be hitting with the body hitboxes and ONLY the body hitboxes.

Gotta wonder about the logic behind such a hitbox though. Y'know, igniting the enemy and spiking them downward ferociously with a sword swing attack requires direct contact with the body and not the blade.

Roy has become one with the sword; he is the sword.

 

[Taytertot]

Its been confirmed, the fire comes from roy himself.

 

[CyberZixx]

And we, the Roy players, are the matches.

 

[Taytertot]

making roy's sword wooden which explains logically why his sword catches fire.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why can Tuun Link spike with his cap

Why does Falcon spike with his nipples

Why does Fox's face hurt you when he pops his leg out for Nair

Hitboxes make no sense man

 

[Hellrazor]

Why can Tuun Link spike with his cap

Why does Falcon spike with his nipples

Why does Fox's face hurt you when he pops his leg out for Nair

Hitboxes make no sense man

I could understand Falcon's nipples, but...

...yeah.

 

[BBOY15]

So if you have to hit someone with only the body hitboxes to spike, is the best way to spike to go below someone and jump up into them?

 

[Hellrazor]

So if you have to hit someone with only the body hitboxes to spike, is the best way to spike to go below someone and jump up into them?

That's how I've always done it. Pop up, run under, jump right up to them and hope they don't have time to react before the hit lands. It's a janky hitbox either way.

 

[CyberZixx]

It is not too difficult if you jump up into them and are aiming the straight down angle. Getting the forward angled spike is a different story. I find it far harder to hit in 3.5.

 

[TFerg]

Roy's rising dair off the ledge is just so good for edgeguarding now, even if you don't quite time it perfect.
Sweetspot= dead
Tipper = popped up for f-smash/bair/fair for more edgeguarding
Sourspot = weird angle that sometimes just kills them

Even though it technically could always accomplish these things, it just feels more potent now with the way the new dair feels.

If you don't have a good ledge game, grind that jank out yo

 

[Leafeon]

Roy's rising dair off the ledge is just so good for edgeguarding now, even if you don't quite time it perfect.
Sweetspot= dead
Normal spot = popped up for f-smash/bair/fair for more edgeguarding
Tipper/Sourspot = weird angle that sometimes just kills themo

fix'd

 

[G13_Flux]

Both of the body hitboxes are spike hitboxes. His blade hitboxes take priority over the body ones, however, so for you to actually land a spike, you need to be hitting with the body hitboxes and ONLY the body hitboxes.

hmm so is the fact that its harder to hit with because the hitboxes were made smaller then compared to 3.02? i was having quite a tough time hitting grounded opponents at all, and i did some rough debug testing which led me to my earlier conclusion. but i guess its hard to be that precise in debug mode without putting in a bit more time and patience.

It is not too difficult if you jump up into them and are aiming the straight down angle. Getting the forward angled spike is a different story. I find it far harder to hit in 3.5.

its true, now we actually have to pay more attention to our positioning while jumping into the opponent. as long as you get a good read on their DI quickly enough, its not too bad to get it. you just have to be mindful to not overshoot past the opponent. i find that starting the dair a few frames earlier than Iwould have done in 3.02 is the easiest way for me to connect it. that way the normal and tip hitboxes that stick out forwards during the first active frame will be long gone behind roy and wont out prioritize the sweet spot.

its not hard at all out of a dtilt, thats definitely its easiest set up. its a bit trickier out of a fair. you have to make sure you fast fall ASAP after connecting the fair to try and get as much underneath them as possible. DI away makes it hard to do, if not impossible at relevant kill percents, but since that is generally poor survival DI for that kind of situation, it may still work in our favor. its also quite difficult to test how well you can connect with it with DI away by yourself. i need someone to help me do that to know for sure what percents are viable for that combo.

 

[Leafeon]

hmm so is the fact that its harder to hit with because the hitboxes were made smaller then compared to 3.02? i was having quite a tough time hitting grounded opponents at all, and i did some rough debug testing which led me to my earlier conclusion. but i guess its hard to be that precise in debug mode without putting in a bit more time and patience.



its true, now we actually have to pay more attention to our positioning while jumping into the opponent. as long as you get a good read on their DI quickly enough, its not too bad to get it. you just have to be mindful to not overshoot past the opponent. i find that starting the dair a few frames earlier than Iwould have done in 3.02 is the easiest way for me to connect it. that way the normal and tip hitboxes that stick out forwards during the first active frame will be long gone behind roy and wont out prioritize the sweet spot.

its not hard at all out of a dtilt, thats definitely its easiest set up. its a bit trickier out of a fair. you have to make sure you fast fall ASAP after connecting the fair to try and get as much underneath them as possible. DI away makes it hard to do, if not impossible at relevant kill percents, but since that is generally poor survival DI for that kind of situation, it may still work in our favor. its also quite difficult to test how well you can connect with it with DI away by yourself. i need someone to help me do that to know for sure what percents are viable for that combo.

If you have them at a relevant kill % and you're trying to fair dair them, change that dair to a backair. It's simply the more optimal choice, albeit less stylish. Even if it sourspots you won't get a bad angle unlike dair normalspot. Doing this may also cause them to focus more on survival DI up-inwards so that next time a spike is more relevant from fair even if they're at say 50-60%.

 

[G13_Flux]

Yeah I'm aware of the bair combo. its definitely the more reliable one, although the dair is the more rewarding one by far, especially with heavies that can usually survive the bair until decent percents and have weak vertical recoveries (DK, Bowser, yoshi, etc.). of all the offstage fair combos, you've basically got your pick between dair, neutral b, bair, nair, and another fair, listed in order of most rewarding > lest rewarding. not oddly enough, that list also goes mostly in order of most risk/difficulty to set up > least risk/easiest to set up. its all about playing the percents game and getting a good read on their DI. luckily, with most characters a few well placed fairs will suffice to complete the edge guard. if you go up the list though, youre going to be getting kills earlier and earlier, and with more style lol. the dair combo is hard but i think its worth the risk of the glory here and there.

 

[Leafeon]

Yeah I'm aware of the bair combo. its definitely the more reliable one, although the dair is the more rewarding one by far, especially with heavies that can usually survive the bair until decent percents and have weak vertical recoveries (DK, Bowser, yoshi, etc.). of all the offstage fair combos, you've basically got your pick between dair, neutral b, bair, nair, and another fair, listed in order of most rewarding > lest rewarding. not oddly enough, that list also goes mostly in order of most risk/difficulty to set up > least risk/easiest to set up. its all about playing the percents game and getting a good read on their DI. luckily, with most characters a few well placed fairs will suffice to complete the edge guard. if you go up the list though, youre going to be getting kills earlier and earlier, and with more style lol. the dair combo is hard but i think its worth the risk of the glory here and there.

The large heavies like bowser I think are even harder to hit with the dair sweetspot because the normal hitboxes take priority over the sweetspot hitboxes. Since they have such large hitboxes it becomes harder to only hit with the sweetspot ones. And I find that nair has more risk than bair, and less reward seemingly. I don't think I would ever use nair to try and edgeguard someone, that seems... kinda silly. Nair's IASA is way too long to make it more worth it than bair. But yeah, if you can land those sweetspots on those characters rather easily (Not sure why you're not just footstooling yoshi instead if you have that precision.) then go for it. It just seems less risky and same reward to go for bair in most situations.

 

[Binary Clone]

The large heavies like bowser I think are even harder to hit with the dair sweetspot because the normal hitboxes take priority over the sweetspot hitboxes. Since they have such large hitboxes it becomes harder to only hit with the sweetspot ones. And I find that nair has more risk than bair, and less reward seemingly. I don't think I would ever use nair to try and edgeguard someone, that seems... kinda silly. Nair's IASA is way too long to make it more worth it than bair. But yeah, if you can land those sweetspots on those characters rather easily (Not sure why you're not just footstooling yoshi instead if you have that precision.) then go for it. It just seems less risky and same reward to go for bair in most situations.

Nair for edgeguard is definitely silly. Bair is almost always a better option than dair offstage unless you're very confident you'll hit, or you only want to style on them.

 

[G13_Flux]

The large heavies like bowser I think are even harder to hit with the dair sweetspot because the normal hitboxes take priority over the sweetspot hitboxes. Since they have such large hitboxes it becomes harder to only hit with the sweetspot ones. And I find that nair has more risk than bair, and less reward seemingly. I don't think I would ever use nair to try and edgeguard someone, that seems... kinda silly. Nair's IASA is way too long to make it more worth it than bair. But yeah, if you can land those sweetspots on those characters rather easily (Not sure why you're not just footstooling yoshi instead if you have that precision.) then go for it. It just seems less risky and same reward to go for bair in most situations.

well nair has the same FAF as dair does. bair is definitely more rewarding, but its also harder to hit with because of short range. in the event that you want something thats better than fair, but the opponents too high in percent to connect with bair, or you're just not close enough, then nair is a suitable replacement, especially if youre doubtful of trying a neutral b due to start up. its angle is 361, which means 45 degrees at anything past mid percent, which is better than fairs 50 degree angle on the outer three hitboxes. it also has more damage, BKB, and KBG than fair, making it a suitable intermediate option in some circumstances. unless you're below the ledge, you can easily recover from it, and there's not much risk to using it. if you think that bair is going to be your staple, go-to option all the time, then all the power to you, but youre going to run into times when you simply just cant hit with it. you can think its silly, but when you could have gotten a kill, and instead completely whiffed a bair and got punished for it, you might re-evaluate your approach to the situation.

footstooling, while useful at times, isn't going to pack the punch needed to kill most characters unfortunately. at 60 %, dair offstage is a guaranteed kill on all but those with great vertical recovery. yoshi will easily be able to survive a footstool if he still has his second jump especially since you're performing it above the ledge most likely. bair is also not going to kill at those percents at all. good DI, especially with heavyweights, is going to render bair as a kill option uneffective until well past 100%. Im not trying to tell you that bair is a bad option, because its going to get you kills occasionally in offstage usage, and its safer than trying to hit dair. but its undeniable that dair is your most rewarding option offstage if you can connect with it. i personally havent noticed a difference with connecting it with bigger characters . you just have to make sure you start it earlier so the initial hitboxes that are out to the side of roy get moved underneath him in subsequent frames.

Nair for edgeguard is definitely silly. Bair is almost always a better option than dair offstage unless you're very confident you'll hit, or you only want to style on them.

like i said, if you think youre going to connect with bair all the time, then you go ahead and keep trying that. theres going to be times where you are too far out of range and you need to resort to either a fair or nair. you could go with the safe fair, but nair is pretty safe too, and yields a better reward than fair. if youre jumping down into the depths like youre CF, wolf, peach, DDD, or some other character with amazing edge guard prowess, then yes its a silly option. but youre roy. we dont do that with him besides with fair. if you dtilt someone missing a sweetspot, following up with fair > nair can be a powerful option if fair > bair is out of range, and you dont want to risk the neutral b.

 

[Leafeon]

I meant particularly against Yoshi @ footstooling. Assuming he is recovering, (and that you know about what the trajectory his doublejump sends him at, kind of mu knowledge there) if you space yourself around there and the fact you can just spam your taunt buttons in midair... if he DJs into it, it's basically bye-bye yoshi. Usually they panic DJ for their super armor as soon as you get close to them anyway, so footstooling even if you go out before their dj is sometimes okay. Double footstool is still also possible if you really want to go for it and you're not that far down or away from ledge.

But from how I see it, if you can hit with a nair and recover, you can go the extra 2cm to hit with bair as well. I don't always go for it, no, because tipped downair is still viable. The sweetspot is just not reliable enough for me to continuously use as an edgeguarding tool. I've had times against a friend of mine playing ganon when I miss the sweetspot, they get popped up, and then I get stomped. I usually use my dair rising when I try to hit with sweetspot so I don't have a DJ and you know where it goes from there basically.
I'll consider nair a few more times but I figure there's reason I don't see it altogether too often outside of even my own play.

As for larger characters (Bowser, DK, Charizard) I always seem to hit with the first active frame, and being as imperfect as I am, I don't yet know the timing for "early pressing" before hitting, since when I try to do that it's just an entire whiff. Not saying that I can't hit with it, it's just tougher than a tall+thin character. I don't deny that dair sweetspot has the most reward, I just don't really think that the risk is quite that worth it at all times, and that bair will usually finish the job in its own right with less IASA.

 

[Binary Clone]

If you have time to nair, you can also Flare Blade or probably double fair.

 

[G13_Flux]

If you have time to nair, you can also Flare Blade or probably double fair.

flare blade comes out on frame 16. nair comes out on frame 6. if you have time to nair, you dont necessarily have time to neutral b. that isnt a true combo most of the time and you can often get hit before hand quite easily unless you space it right. even then they can double jump out of it. flare blade is better reward, yes, but much more risk as youre more likely to whiff.

ive already described how nair has a better angle, more KBG and BKG, and more damage than fair, making it more optimal at the expense of more endlag. the endlag however, can easily be recovered from in the scenario i described and isnt much of a risk since it has plenty of range and comes out only one frame slower than fair.

But from how I see it, if you can hit with a nair and recover, you can go the extra 2cm to hit with bair as well.

were on the same page about dair, but this sentence here was the only thing i was trying to get at with mentioning nair as a follow up from fair offstage. there are going to be times when the opponent is approaching the end of hitstun, and going the extra couple feet will mean a complete whiff or your getting counter attacked first. its not like the difference between roys front facing bair and nair is small.. nair has got some great disjoint to it, providing great saftey, while the hitbox for bair is literally within roys shoulder. for that reason, against characters that have a quick nair (or even worse, like ness's frame 5 dair) using bair can actually be quite a risk. its character dependent yes, and percent dependent, yes, and bair will usually yield the much better reward, but there are times that nair is safer, and since its more rewarding than a fair, it can be incorporated as such. ive had success with it where a bair or dair just wasnt an option due to the opponents percent and combo break abilities. use it as you see fit, as im not telling you its a game breaking option, but its far better than being "silly." it has its niche and there are times where i do believe that it would be a far better and safer option than bair.

 

[Leafeon]

flare blade comes out on frame 16. nair comes out on frame 6. if you have time to nair, you dont necessarily have time to neutral b. that isnt a true combo most of the time and you can often get hit before hand quite easily unless you space it right. even then they can double jump out of it. flare blade is better reward, yes, but much more risk as youre more likely to whiff.

ive already described how nair has a better angle, more KBG and BKG, and more damage than fair, making it more optimal at the expense of more endlag. the endlag however, can easily be recovered from in the scenario i described and isnt much of a risk since it has plenty of range and comes out only one frame slower than fair.



were on the same page about dair, but this sentence here was the only thing i was trying to get at with mentioning nair as a follow up from fair offstage. there are going to be times when the opponent is approaching the end of hitstun, and going the extra couple feet will mean a complete whiff or your getting counter attacked first. its not like the difference between roys front facing bair and nair is small.. nair has got some great disjoint to it, providing great saftey, while the hitbox for bair is literally within roys shoulder. for that reason, against characters that have a quick nair (or even worse, like ness's frame 5 dair) using bair can actually be quite a risk. its character dependent yes, and percent dependent, yes, and bair will usually yield the much better reward, but there are times that nair is safer, and since its more rewarding than a fair, it can be incorporated as such. ive had success with it where a bair or dair just wasnt an option due to the opponents percent and combo break abilities. use it as you see fit, as im not telling you its a game breaking option, but its far better than being "silly." it has its niche and there are times where i do believe that it would be a far better and safer option than bair.

After some testing, I continue to hold my statement about nair being not-so-good offstage. The first swing (front and back) does 4% damage and if the opponent SDIs upwards (which is usual survival DI) then they won't get hit by the stronger hit. If you start early, then you're basically going the flare blade route anyway with a slightly less optimal off-stage thin hitbox in comparison (but a better angle, yes). Technically speaking, the attack starts on the frames close to fair, but the attack you're really trying to hit with doesn't start until frame 7 or 8.
If bair won't hit, I will B-reverse flare blade, nair usually only helps for them to recover easier with ASDI up making them only get hit by the initial hit with almost no knockback and 4% damage.

 

[G13_Flux]

After some testing, I continue to hold my statement about nair being not-so-good offstage. The first swing (front and back) does 4% damage and if the opponent SDIs upwards (which is usual survival DI) then they won't get hit by the stronger hit. If you start early, then you're basically going the flare blade route anyway with a slightly less optimal off-stage thin hitbox in comparison (but a better angle, yes). Technically speaking, the attack starts on the frames close to fair, but the attack you're really trying to hit with doesn't start until frame 7 or 8.
If bair won't hit, I will B-reverse flare blade, nair usually only helps for them to recover easier with ASDI up making them only get hit by the initial hit with almost no knockback and 4% damage.

Then you can continue by all means to try and hit your bairs and flare blades every time. Let me know how it works out. If you are rising from a DJ, then SDI ing upwards won't allow you to escape it. I still feel that you don't understand the situation I described and are arguing for some kind of cf style leaping edge guard. I've been talking about off stage combo enders to fair. I've had a good amount of success with the Nair combo ender because it's far more reliable than neutral b as a ranged option in this situation.

I don't have a clue what b reversing a flare blade is going to do here, but you can continue as you see fit. My opinion stems from my experience and i think it's hard to argue that there is a better option for the situation I described

 

[Leafeon]

Then you can continue by all means to try and hit your bairs and flare blades every time. Let me know how it works out. If you are rising from a DJ, then SDI ing upwards won't allow you to escape it. I still feel that you don't understand the situation I described and are arguing for some kind of cf style leaping edge guard. I've been talking about off stage combo enders to fair. I've had a good amount of success with the Nair combo ender because it's far more reliable than neutral b as a ranged option in this situation.

I don't have a clue what b reversing a flare blade is going to do here, but you can continue as you see fit. My opinion stems from my experience and i think it's hard to argue that there is a better option for the situation I described

I play my game with contingency in mind.
If what I said can happen, and it could, then you could be hard-punished for it by not only now being below them offstage, but in long endlag and now forced to take a one-dimensional recovery path.
Many characters could hit you with a backair after getting hit with the first hit and still make it back. If you would have just hit with flare blade or backair, that couldn't have happened.
Nair's great-- It has its niche-- I get it. But niches aren't really how I plan the more dangerous gameplay scenarios.
In my testing it worked plenty, (also rising doublejump nair can be broken out of by floaties with ASDI up+away if they're prepared for it, but only if they're prepared) but I also lost stocks based on what I just described to you.

I certainly see its use, and I might use it now and then, but definitely not often.