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Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

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Swamp Sensei

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1. for the games that have had mascots (1 4 and 5) none of them have been legendary. I mean maybe it wouldnt matter but at least its evidence that there could be something else on the way. This also helps to explain its movie presence since nearly all of the legendaries have had movies focused around them (I think at least. pokemon anime isnt my thing)
2. they were only calling it a new pokemon to crush peoples dreams :lick: but as for me its national pokedex number will remain 150 so it is just a well advertised old pokemon.
3. We should at least get another pokemon that is plausible to add in smash
4. cliches...
1.I like how you completely ignore Pichu and/or Lugia (Oh look! A legendary!) as the Gen 2 mascot. Gen 3 had Blaziken/ Keckleon/ Rayquaza/ Plusle and Minun but it's much harder to tell who that mascot was there. There is no evidence that something new is one the way. X and Y are coming out in October. If they wanted to reveal a new mascot. They would have done it by now! Your last sentence does not make much sense at all. Really. What are you trying to argue.
2. Crush people's dreams? What? Okay. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that it's still considered a new pokemon BY THE POKEMON COMPANY.
3. We already got one. Newtwo.
4. Nope. Tropes. :troll:
 

Swamp Sensei

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I mean I guess it's true that they are using him as advertisement. But it's impossible to know whether there will be another pokemon introduced later that will have lots of advertisement to it as well.
It's a safe bet that they will not.
 
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I mean I guess it's true that they are using him as advertisement. But it's impossible to know whether there will be another pokemon introduced later that will have lots of advertisement to it as well.
Doesn't matter.

The time for character selection had likely been passed around a year ago, meaning a 6th Gen "mascot" of sorts had likely missed the boat.
The only chance it's got is Awakened Mewtwo, since Mewtwo is likely to have already been planned prior to this announcement.
 
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Noler_Mass said:
Well my reasoning behind not having Lucario is Mewtwos imminent inclusion especially since they announced his new form and he has been requested so much. Mewtwo and lucario are just too similar to be in the same fighting game when there are plenty of other choices that would be much more interesting. Plus I think that they would rather go for characters from more recent games. I for one personally believe that zoroark will not be in the game either even though he would make a great character and instead we will get a currently unknown character from x and y (possibly the giratina or kyurem of the 6th gen). I will say that unlike many many smash fans I am an avid supporter of having new characters and leaving the characters that don't compliment the cast behind (this is why I have never liked the inclusion of a second link that is nearly exactly the same) I think that it would be quite possible that we won't see lucario, snake, rob, Lucas, Ike, and even falco in the next game
Noler_Mass said:
As for Dixie kong I just don't think she would make a unique enough character. It's not that donkey kong isn't a big series but I don't think there are any other characters important enough to warrant inclusion. Just like how I think there won't be any other wario characters since there aren't any other major ones. I don't like to think of characters on a series basis but more just from the Importance of the character to Nintendo standpoint (which is why fire emblem should get more characters!)
I don't see how Lucario and Mewtwo would be too similar. They barely share any similarities in move sets (even Lucario's B move acts different from Mewtwo's) and are from much different origin. For characters in a new game, they sort of already have one in Mewtwo (who got a new form and is being heavily promoted). Mewtwo would kill two birds with one stone; to give the latest generation playable representation and the inclusion of likely the most wanted character. Also we are not getting more than three cuts in the next game and even three is highly unlikely. Also, if we're discussing possible cuts, why is Sonic nowhere to be found, yet Lucas, R.O.B and Falco are mentioned as possibilities? As much as people don't want to admit, if there's going to be cuts, Snake and Sonic are at the top of the chopping block.

Dixie Kong can be made into an unique character (just read move sets from the Dixie Kong support thread). But even then, uniqueness in move set potentials isn't exactly a deal breaker for characters. There's no reason why we shouldn't get three Donkey Kong characters. King K. Rool is the most important villain in the franchise and is also very heavily requested to get in (he's among the top five, looking to be the third most wanted character).
 
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I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Snake and Sonic being at the top of the chopping block. As long as there's Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf, who were all among low priority characters that would be axed if time would not allow for their production, while Sonic was given time for his production despite being added very late (where the alternative would be for Sakurai to not include Sonic because negotiations came too late), they would be among the first on the chopping block again.
And same with the ones that WERE chopped if they are being considered again this time around (with the exception of Mewtwo for obvious reasons, and the possible exception of Roy).
 
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I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Snake and Sonic being at the top of the chopping block. As long as there's Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf, who were all among low priority characters that would be axed if time would not allow for their production, while Sonic was given time for his production despite being added very late (where the alternative would be for Sakurai to not include Sonic because negotiations came too late), they would be among the first on the chopping block again.
And same with the ones that WERE chopped if they are being considered again this time around (with the exception of Mewtwo for obvious reasons, and the possible exception of Roy).
We currently don't know anything about Sakurai's guest policies for returning guest or even if he allows them to return. So far, Smash has only had one game with third-parties. I do think both will return because of Sakurai's positive attitude towards them, but until we get confirmed information on some third-party details (particularly the question of whenever or not guests can return), we shouldn't be saying that they're safe.
 

Noler_Mass

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I don't see how Lucario and Mewtwo would be too similar. They barely share any similarities in move sets (even Lucario's B move acts different from Mewtwo's) and are from much different origin. For characters in a new game, they sort of already have one in Mewtwo (who got a new form and is being heavily promoted). Mewtwo would kill two birds with one stone; to give the latest generation playable representation and the inclusion of likely the most wanted character. Also we are not getting more than three cuts in the next game and even three is highly unlikely. Also, if we're discussing possible cuts, why is Sonic nowhere to be found, yet Lucas, R.O.B and Falco are mentioned as possibilities? As much as people don't want to admit, if there's going to be cuts, Snake and Sonic are at the top of the chopping block.

Dixie Kong can be made into an unique character (just read move sets from the Dixie Kong support thread). But even then, uniqueness in move set potentials isn't exactly a deal breaker for characters. There's no reason why we shouldn't get three Donkey Kong characters. King K. Rool is the most important villain in the franchise and is also very heavily requested to get in (he's among the top five, looking to be the third most wanted character).
As for having both lucario and mewtwo, I think it is likely that only one will be there not because of their move sets but because of how similar their move sets seem. They are both bipedal animalistic psychic powered pokemon and out of the over 600 pokemon out there you have to pick two that are so very similar?

As for King K. Rool I firmly believe he will be in this game maybe even announced at e3 if I accidentally said otherwise I didn't mean it. I just meant that other than the big three no other kong sticks out to me as a plausible character.

As for why sonic isnt on the chopping block I would say first of all it is because segas and nintendos compliance has only gone up since brawl. There is also the fact that is the sonic fan base is so. Flipping. Huge. They would literally burn this game to the ground. In fact they will probably try to burn this game to the ground if shadow or knuckles doesnt make it but I hope and pray that sakurai doesn't fall for that because this game doesn't need many third party. I just think that we will get sonic, a namco character most likely pacman, and another from somewhere either being megaman or a return of snake
 

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As for having both lucario and mewtwo, I think it is likely that only one will be there not because of their move sets but because of how similar their move sets seem.
If having one or two moves in common made two characters clones, most of the cast of Smash 64 would be considered clones.

They are both bipedal animalistic psychic powered pokemon and out of the over 600 pokemon out there you have to pick two that are so very similar?
 

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Lucario is Psychic-type? Someone hasn't played Pokémon to know that he's dual Fighting and Steel-type...
 
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In what way is a psychic genetically modified fetus cat "so very similar" to a brawling jackal with mystical energy? Their movesets are hardly similar; just a similar Neutral Special and Forward-Smash.
Kirby and Meta Knight have more similarities to each other than those two.

We currently don't know anything about Sakurai's guest policies for returning guest or even if he allows them to return. So far, Smash has only had one game with third-parties. I do think both will return because of Sakurai's positive attitude towards them, but until we get confirmed information on some third-party details (particularly the question of whenever or not guests can return), we shouldn't be saying that they're safe.
We also shouldn't be saying they are first on the chopping block BECAUSE we simply don't know, so practice what you preach.
 
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Noler_Mass said:
As for having both lucario and mewtwo, I think it is likely that only one will be there not because of their move sets but because of how similar their move sets seem. They are both bipedal animalistic psychic powered pokemon and out of the over 600 pokemon out there you have to pick two that are so very similar?

As for King K. Rool I firmly believe he will be in this game maybe even announced at e3 if I accidentally said otherwise I didn't mean it. I just meant that other than the big three no other kong sticks out to me as a plausible character.

As for why sonic isnt on the chopping block I would say first of all it is because segas and nintendos compliance has only gone up since brawl. There is also the fact that is the sonic fan base is so. Flipping. Huge. They would literally burn this game to the ground. In fact they will probably try to burn this game to the ground if shadow or knuckles doesnt make it but I hope and pray that sakurai doesn't fall for that because this game doesn't need many third party. I just think that we will get sonic, a namco character most likely pacman, and another from somewhere either being megaman or a return of snake
You're nitpicking at this point. You acknowledge that their move set isn't similar, but yet they feel similar? I don't see how that even remotely begins to work, especially when both are significantly different from each other when you look away from the fact that both are bipedal (and there are plenty of bipedal Pokémons). Plus they aren't even of the same type (Lucario is a Steel/Fighting Pokémon whereas Mewtwo is a Psychic Pokémon).

If Sonic were to be removed, there will be a large back lash, but you are very much over-exaggerating the effect of Sonic getting cut. They won't burn the game to the ground just because Sonic gets cut; as a matter of fact, it would have minimal impact on sales (almost everyone who would cry over Sonic's exclusion would still buy the game because of the characters in Smash 4 that do make it and because of how Smash 4 will be different from it's predecessor). There probably won't be much complaining about the lack of a second Sonic rep either considering that getting one is highly doubtful, so you don't have to worry about one appearing.
 

Noler_Mass

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Lucario is Psychic-type? Someone hasn't played Pokémon to know that he's dual Fighting and Steel-type...
As someone who has put in over 1500 hours of pokemon in my life (believe me I've counted) I feel like a failure right now... But never the less he is very mystically inclined to say the least as you can tell from his move set in brawl. Please forgive me.

As to why mewtwo and lucario are similar... They are both animals with mystic abilities that are shown by a purplish aura in their moveset. They move the same way, fight similarly, use similar tactics (for someone who is just playing the game for fun please don't try to debate this. This is fact that I have witnessed) and they even sound the same. Now lets say darkrai had made it in to the game instead. He would've had a different moveset he would have moved similar and I'm fairly certain he doesn't talk the same (in a way he would've have been more similar to what zoroark could be) this is what leads me to believe that lucario is Mewtwos replacement. He may not have stolen Mewtwos moveset per say but he stole the aesthetics of Mewtwos moveset. And now that mewtwo is most likely returning and lucario has become obsolete, he will very likely be cut. Also who other than sonic and snake (so you say) would be cut before lucario? I think his chances in the next smash are slim if not microscopic
 
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"For someone who is just playing the game for fun please don't try to debate this"?
So, you're giving an excuse why you're saying ignorant things and you don't want people to call you out on the ignorance?
 

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Character cut tier list: (In order from most to least likely)


:sonic: :snake:
These two are the most likely to be cut. Simply because they have legal issues because of their third party status.


:lucario: :ike:
I think these two are rather unlikely to be cut (Ike morseo than Lucario), but I think if ANY Nintendo character was going to be cut, it would be one of these two.


:pt: :wolf: :toonlink:
I would be suprised at these three being cut, but their the only other characters I could fathom being cut if they needed more Nintendo characters cut. I see PT as being more likely than Wolf of Toon Link, simply because Pokemon tends to change it's roster a lot. And it's possible Sakurai may want PT to leave over Lucario. Not likely, but minutely possible.

I don't really see Lucas, Shiek, Jigglypuff, or R.O.B being cut, even though they are some characters who sometimes are put on these lists.
 

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"For someone who is just playing the game for fun please don't try to debate this"?
So, you're giving an excuse why you're saying ignorant things and you don't want people to call you out on the ignorance?
I'm not trying to be ignorant I'm trying to say that from a "playing the game for fun and not for competition" perspective lucario and mewtwo fight extremely similarly and many of you can't see this because you are the smaller percentage of people who do fight for competition can nitpick and find how they are different. I was simply trying to not start a flame war on a topic that doesn't even matter to the topic at hand which is whether with the inclusion of mewtwo, lucario will make the game or not.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin said:
We also shouldn't be saying they are first on the chopping block BECAUSE we simply don't know, so practice what you preach.
The fact that they are third-parties already makes them realistic contenders to be cut because of the licensing issues that will be involved to get them back, so this isn't just assumption that because they're third-parties, they'll be low priority.
 
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It doesn't take "competitive" perspective to note now Mewtwo and Lucario are different. I'm a ****ing casual player and I notice major differences just by playing as both.

The fact that they are third-parties already makes them realistic contenders to be cut because of the licensing issues that will be involved to get them back, so this isn't just assumption that because they're third-parties, they'll be low priority.
This is a horrible double standard.

"You can't claim that they are not low priority because they are third party and we don't know how third parties will work. But I can claim that they are low priority because they are third party despite not knowing how third parties will work".

Then in reality, they are of unknown priority. You can't claim one way or the other with an insufficient amount of information.
 

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Shorts

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I don't see how you cannot read this

Adding characters from other series and from other worlds, really, outside the Nintendo universe, is an incredibly difficult process. In some ways it's more difficult from just building a game from the ground up because you're really trying to make everything match and in some ways that creates limitations. I hope that people can understand that's the reason we can't include more characters from outside the Nintendo universe. And, of course, I believe that when you increase the number of worlds, you're also increasing the number of people who could potentially enjoy that videogame and the series that you're putting in there. But there are also problems because having these non-traditional characters in there -- even with just Snake and Sonic -- has resulted in a number of people who do dissent in seeing these characters put into the Smash series. It's not a simple matter of adding as many worlds and characters from other games as possible -- you can't be careless in doing that sort of thing, you have to be careful. Internally and externally, there have been people who have raised objections to it.
And still try to say that keeping Sonic is as keeping Peach.
 

Pazzo.

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Mainly because he was Sakurai's favorite choice in Melee, indicating that Sakurai likes him. I also feel as Sakurai will be reviving a retro character. Takamaru has been in a way, revived (if he gets a new game, I expect Platnium Games to do it), so that's why I'm thinking Mach Rider.
Alright, I'll go with that. I'll find out more about Mach Rider.
 

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It doesn't take "competitive" perspective to note now Mewtwo and Lucario are different. I'm a ****ing casual player and I notice major differences just by playing as both.


This is a horrible double standard.

"You can't claim that they are not low priority because they are third party and we don't know how third parties will work. But I can claim that they are low priority because they are third party despite not knowing how third parties will work".

Then in reality, they are of unknown priority. You can't claim one way or the other with an insufficient amount of information.
Okay obviously your belief is fairly set in stone. Even if it is borderline ridiculous. But I think (or at least pray) that you can at least agree that lucario is the reason that mewtwo was saved til last to make in brawl, and mewtwo will be the reason that lucario will be saved til last in ssb4
 
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I don't see how you cannot read this



And still try to say that keeping Sonic is as keeping Peach.
Did anyone say anything along the lines of "keeping Sonic is as keeping Peach"? Didn't think so.

I also don't see how you cannot read this
I think Snake and Sonic joining were fantastic. It made many fans happy, and it broadened the Smash Bros arena. However, introducing more non-Nintendo characters willy-nilly will lose the focus of the game, so I also recognize the need to narrow it down.
And still try to say that Sonic is less likely to come back than Toon Link.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Well regardless, something must have happened for those two to be cut. Or some reason why they didn't take more time to include them.
 

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Sheik can be cut, and if she's not, she's probably going to be in Smash forever.
 
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I don't see this argument going anywhere but downhill at this point, so I'll end with this:

If anyone is going to get cut for reasons other than time constraints, they will be third-parties. Because of the licensing issues involved with getting these characters (which don't just magically go away just because they appeared in one game) and how hard it is to fit any third-parties in the game (Sakurai saying that it's in some ways, harder to add third-parties in than to make the game is not something to take lightly), the possibility that Sonic and Snake are cut does exist. Not saying that they're going to be axed, but with this being a primarily Nintendo-focused game, third-parties are going to be the lowest priority for Sakurai.

They're like desserts for a meal. It's great to enjoy in small doses, but they should be treated as optional.
 
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Okay obviously your belief is fairly set in stone. Even if it is borderline ridiculous. But I think (or at least pray) that you can at least agree that lucario is the reason that mewtwo was saved til last to make in brawl, and mewtwo will be the reason that lucario will be saved til last in ssb4
If my belief is borderline ridiculous, then that makes your belief more ridiculous than trying to drown Aquaman or trying to kill Godzilla with an atomic bomb.

Because really, you'd have to be a moron (and no, I'm not going to sugarcoat this) to keep on believing that Mewtwo and Lucario are "very similar" after actually playing as the two or watching this video:
And no, Lucario is not the reason why Mewtwo was "saved til last". Otherwise, you'd have to say that Lucario is the reason that Jigglypuff was saved until last as well because, like Mewtwo, Jigglypuff was also a low priority character that was expendable. The only difference between Jigglypuff and Mewtwo is that Jigglypuff managed to survive the chopping block.
And then we get Pokémon Trainer, who was higher priority than all of them. So do we blame the Trainer now? The Trainer would be more to blame with his three Pokémon as to why Jigglypuff and Mewtwo were low priority, but of course he can't be blamed because "none of his Pokémon are 'similar' to them". :rolleyes:

With wind waker hd on the horizon toon link is guaranteed. Before it was announced I thought he was a lost cause.
You mean just like how FireRed and LeafGreen made Mewtwo guaranteed?
Aside from that, we got A Link to the Past 2 on the horizon as well. That Link can just as easily replace Toon Link as he replaced Young Link.
 

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Too Long Didn't Watch: Mewtwo and Lucario only share their Neutral B and Forward Smash.
 

kikaru

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Both Mewtwo and Lucario play clearly differently, the only similarity they have is that they both aren't even competitively viable. Who the hell is going to run Disable, Teleport, and Confusion on Mewtwo when Psystrike, Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, Ice Beam and Recover are clearly the superior choices? And Special Sweeper Lucario? Don't make me laugh, give him Close Combat or Ice Punch for crying out loud. I'm also sure that Double Team is banned too.

But seriously, even if Mewtwo made it into Brawl him and Lucario would have very little similarities aside from their Neutral B and possibly a smash attack or two, but which characters can really say they have a completely unique smash attack?

On another aside wasn't there an article regarding Mach Rider and Melee stating that Mach Rider would be an unviable fighter/ way too hard to implement? Or was that Excitebike? Does it matter?

And finally, as far as Sonic getting cut I personally do not see it happening. This is mostly because of how much he was requested and supported during Brawl despite being added in during the final parts of the development seeing as he took precedence over Mewtwo, Roy, and Dixie. However, like it has been stated before, if Sonic were to get cut major backlash would occur (Possibly the bigger than Mewtwo/Roy) we'd still buy the game anyways right? Hell we'd probably still buy the game if Peach or Metaknight got cut amrite, maybe even Captain Falcon, I mean he hasn't seen a game in so long amirite? It's just one character after all. If Sonic does get cut then oh well, it was fun playing him while it lasted.

Let's not make these baseless assumptions people, Sonic may have past the point where cutting him would cause a regrettable backlash that cannot be fixed (Even if he was available as DLC later it'd could still leave quite the sour taste and as some important Japanese figure in the video game industry once said, 'You can only make a great game once.). Is it worth the risk? The answer is simply that we do not know.

While we can speculate who's going on the chopping block we cannot make rules based on trends we have seen in the past. Just because Jigglypuff and Sheik were some of the last characters to be included doesn't mean it's going to be the same this time around.
 

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And still try to say that Sonic is less likely to come back than Toon Link.
You're picking the two little bits you like out of the entire thing. The interview were Sakurai talks about Capcom only furthers the idea that he simply isn't to keen on third party additions.

Yeah, he's less likely still.
 
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You're picking the two little bits you like out of the entire thing. The interview were Sakurai talks about Capcom only furthers the idea that he simply isn't to keen on third party additions.

Yeah, he's less likely still.
You're one to talk.
Nothing he says in the Capcom discussion is remotely similar to him showing to be "not keen on third party additions". Quite frankly, you're only hearing what you want to hear.
Sakurai bright as day is stating that while he is pleased with how Snake and Sonic turned out in Brawl, he can't just add a bunch more third party characters at random because it takes great effort to make them "fit" within the atmosphere and style that Smash has established using Nintendo's franchises and because they aren't supposed to be a major focus.

It's like the "Nintendo characters that couldn't even make an appearance" quote that you translate as "Geno was considered but couldn't happen because of Square-Enix", when in reality, it was heavily unlikely Geno was considered at all.

So yeah, while Snake and Sonic can be cut for whatever reason because we really don't know what's going to happen with third parties this time around, to treat it like a close inevitability to absurd.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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So...anybody have any rosters they would like to share?

I don't see why anyone wants any characters cut. What does that do for the game?
 

Noler_Mass

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I was going to make mine (honestly I can't wait for people to hate on it mwahahaha) but I can't get my roster maker system to work :(

I don't see why anyone wants any characters cut. What does that do for the game?
Opens up possibilities for new characters by cutting the ones that no longer compliment the series. This is what Melee did and I expect brawl to do the same.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Sigh... Whatever ill just leave an "I told you so" here for when lucario doesn't make it.
And I'll let people flame me if lucario does make it. I'm not worried though.
So... you don't address the counterpoint at all.

You just say I'm right.?You'll see? "I told you so?

Really? No offense but.... wow.....

Did you happen to come from GameFAQs? I'm honestly asking that.

Opens up possibilities for new characters by cutting the ones that no longer compliment the series. This is what Melee did and I expect brawl to do the same.
If Sakurai had his way, only Pichu would have been cut.There is proof to support that statement.

With the possible use of DLC, even time constraints, which are the only reason why Mewtwo, Roy and Doc were cut, are not a problem.

There is no real excuse for cuts anymore.
 
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