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Rosalina's weaknesses

Iceweasel

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Does she have any? At all? Thanks to Luma, you can't approach her, you can't grab her, and you CAN'T EVEN PUNISH A SHIELD BREAK (Just got knocked out of a tournament because of that. The salt is absolutely real.) Her own frame data is pretty decent, so staling all of your moves for 8 seconds of no Luma isn't a good option. Are there any cracks in this stone wall?

EDIT: You can't combo her either, since Luma can move around freely regardless of whether Rosa is in hitstun or not. Seriously, shield break? ****ing really, Sakurai?
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Rosalina has some very obvious weaknesses, which includes her very light weight, along with her tall frame. Also, fighters who can easily get at Rosalina's face can be a nuisance as well. Based on what I've heard, Yoshi, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, and Wario have been known to be troubling opponents for Rosalina.

It should also be noted that if Rosalina gets grabbed, the Luma isn't able to do anything until after Rosalina gets thrown.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Does she have any? At all? Thanks to Luma, you can't approach her, you can't grab her, and you CAN'T EVEN PUNISH A SHIELD BREAK (Just got knocked out of a tournament because of that. The salt is absolutely real.) Her own frame data is pretty decent, so staling all of your moves for 8 seconds of no Luma isn't a good option. Are there any cracks in this stone wall?

EDIT: You can't combo her either, since Luma can move around freely regardless of whether Rosa is in hitstun or not. Seriously, shield break? ****ing really, Sakurai?
Rosalina's fastest move is dtilt, at 5 frames. Luma's fastest grounded move is utilt, at 3 frames, although I've literally never seen anyone use utilt as a GTFO option. Getting past the Great Wall of Luma is admittedly tricky, but if you do, Rosalina lacks fast CQC options.

Here's what Luma can do to free Rosalina from sticky situations, and the mechanics behind it:

Grabs: Luma can free Rosalina from a grab. First, Rosalina can simply input a fairly quick attack such as jab before getting grabbed, but not fast enough for her hitbox to actually protect her. In such a case, she'll be grabbed but Luma, who cannot be grabbed, will still proceed with its own version of the attack. This will hit the opponent and free Rosalina.. (It's important to clarify here and now that Luma will never, I repeat, NEVER, attack of its own volition. Whenever it does anything other than move around, it's because Rosalina pressed a button.) In rare and not-completely-understood cases, Rosalina can also mash buttons while being pummeled and make Luma attack, although I'm personally uncertain as to what limits exist on this ability. The correct action to avoid getting bopped by Luma is to throw Rosalina immediately without pummeling, and do not try to beat her faster options with a grab. (If Luma is absent, you can of course pummel all you like.)

Combos/Strings/Followups: If an attack hits Rosalina but not Luma, or if an attack hits both but is not strong enough to send Luma flying, you'll find yourself somewhere nearby Luma while Rosalina is in hitstun. Here it's important to note that you can airdodge out of hitstun before you can jump or attack. Once Rosalina is able to airdodge, even if she herself cannot attack, her button presses will reach Luma and make it attack. When this happens, Luma will start to fly back to Rosalina at the same moment it starts attacking -- imagine a straight line from Luma to Rosalina to figure out how it will move. (This applies only if Luma is linked to Rosalina at the time, i.e. Rosalina did not use Luma Shot.) The correct action here is to either shield Luma's attack, hit Luma quickly with a reasonably fast move (Luma cannot do anything when it's in hitstun or in a tumble animation), or avoid the line from Luma to Rosalina when moving for your followup. Since the time to Luma's counterattack depends on Rosalina's hitstun, you will have more time to do whatever when Rosalina has more damage.

Sleep/Stun: When Rosalina is asleep or stunned, she can still press buttons to make Luma attack. When in the air from a shield break animation, she can make Luma do any aerial except bair, and when asleep/stunned on the ground she can make Luma jab (including the gentleman and rapid finisher) or do a tilt, but she can't make it do a smash. The correct action here is to swat Luma away with anything strong enough to send it flying before moving in on Rosalina. Alternately, use something that outranges Luma, but be aware that Luma's second and third jab will move it forward, so Rosalina can give it a little extra range that way.

Helpless: When Rosalina is in helpless fall state after using Launch Star, she can make Luma perform any aerial except bair. The correct action is to simply be aware of this and time/space your punish to avoid Luma -- from behind is best given the restriction on bair.

Landing: When Rosalina lands on the ground, she can perform an aerial a few frames before landing. Done correctly, she will land without any landing lag since the attack has not even started yet, but Luma will still perform its version. Since she incurs no landing lag, Rosalina is free to act while Luma attacks. If Luma is linked to Rosalina at the time, it will follow her as she moves around. This technique is known as Lunar Landing. The correct action is to be aware of this option and be ready to punish improperly timed attempts -- the techinque requires single-digit frame precision (exact numbers depend on the aerial she uses) and performing it too early will result in normal landing lag. Performing it too late will result in a normal landing followed by a jab, tilt, or smash depending on what buttons Rosalina pressed.

Land Mine: When landing on the ground from hitstun or helpless, or when recovering from sleep or stun, Rosalina can mash the jab button to make Luma perform its rapid jab, then hold the button before she herself does her own rapid jab. She is then able to move around freely while Luma continues spinning in place, wherever it is. She can even perform tilts, smashes, and aerials by very briefly releasing the button and pressing it again -- if she's fast enough, it won't interrupt Luma. She cannot use specials without making Luma perform its finisher. The correct action here is to hit Luma with literally anything -- hitstun will break it out of its rapid jab.
 
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Iceweasel

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So, basically: If Luma exists, you're boned, but it's possible to become slightly less boned.
 

ParanoidDrone

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So, basically: If Luma exists, you're boned, but it's possible to become slightly less boned.
More accurate to say that when Luma exists, Rosalina can get insanely creative with what she does, and yes she can take advantage of Luma to do some fairly cheesy things. But without Luma she's almost literally half a character.

Fortunately for everyone else, it's really easy to kill Luma off. Once it's in a tumble animation there's nothing Rosalina can do, so if you get it tumbling offstage then it's done for, enjoy your 13 Luma-free seconds. Without Luma, Rosalina lacks any real way to approach and is missing nearly all of her kill power. Press your advantage. Bonus points if you time a meaty attack with the moment Luma reappears to send it flying all over again without any chance for Rosalina to use it. (This has happened to me before. It sucks.)

It's worth mentioning that the people who give my Rosalina the most trouble are the ones that understand when it's safe to go after Luma and take every chance they can to swat it away.

EDIT: Rosalina is just so unique that you really can't fight her like any other character. Understanding how Luma works, at least on a basic level, is mandatory to winning the fight. Similar to how you can't really expect to do well against the Ice Climbers without at least knowing that they can desynch and do amazing stuff from grabs. (And that Nana can sometimes pull clutch saves.)
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Send the Luma falling into an abyss, and you can potentially force Rosalina to have to regroup. Either that, or wipe out the Luma's HP.

Shulk can be a nightmare for the Luma while he's using his Buster Monado Art, since the increased damage that Buster offers can eliminate the Luma in just a few attacks, which is strengthened even further with the Hyper Monado Arts.
 

Im Fragbait

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I need help im a zss main and i just got ****ed by a rosa in bracket because of their campy play style. Like the initial post says i cant get grabs zss cant use any the paralyzer or the dsmash(Because of lumas range). The only options i feel like i have are zair Which tacks on no percent and has no follow ups on rosa, or dash attack which can be easily shield grabbed. Also just letting everyone know this is a custom Rosa so she has the far shooting side b. Any time i get luma out of the equation he runs for like 12 seconds and i cant chase him down like I ONLY HAVE 12 ****ING SECONDS WHAT BULL**** IS THIS. AT LEAST WHEN I KILL NANA IN MELEE SHES GONE FOR THE STOCK.

Side Note - Honestly im about to stop playing this game if the best character in the game has no combo game and is just annoying to play against. I feel like everyone who played hbox in melee at evo 2015 like i just dont see the enjoyment in playing her in tournament.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I need help im a zss main and i just got ****ed by a rosa in bracket because of their campy play style. Like the initial post says i cant get grabs zss cant use any the paralyzer or the dsmash(Because of lumas range). The only options i feel like i have are zair Which tacks on no percent and has no follow ups on rosa, or dash attack which can be easily shield grabbed. Also just letting everyone know this is a custom Rosa so she has the far shooting side b. Any time i get luma out of the equation he runs for like 12 seconds and i cant chase him down like I ONLY HAVE 12 ****ING SECONDS WHAT BULL**** IS THIS. AT LEAST WHEN I KILL NANA IN MELEE SHES GONE FOR THE STOCK.

Side Note - Honestly im about to stop playing this game if the best character in the game has no combo game and is just annoying to play against. I feel like everyone who played hbox in melee at evo 2015 like i just dont see the enjoyment in playing her in tournament.
Contrary to what you might think, Rosalina is NOT the best character, since she has some issues against anyone who can easily get at her face. While Shooting Star Bit may be good against the more sluggish fighters, it can't really keep the faster fighters away for too long, especially if they wield reflectors.

Zero Suit Samus does have the tools to mess up Rosalina, but if you're finding yourself getting clobbered by her, you need to become less predictable with your attacks.
 

Im Fragbait

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Contrary to what you might think, Rosalina is NOT the best character, since she has some issues against anyone who can easily get at her face. While Shooting Star Bit may be good against the more sluggish fighters, it can't really keep the faster fighters away for too long, especially if they wield reflectors.

Zero Suit Samus does have the tools to mess up Rosalina, but if you're finding yourself getting clobbered by her, you need to become less predictable with your attacks.
mhm sure, this is what i get for saying that in a rosalina thread. Im obviously not predictable i took a game off of the best person at the tournament in a set of 3 but when playing a scrubby, campy rosalina player of course i get 2-0d. YOU CANT JUST GIVE ME A BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE YOUR ****ING PREDICTABLE, BECAUSE EVERYTHING YOU THROW AT ROSALINA LUMA EITHER ABSORBS, OR YOU GET SHIELD GRABBED.

ROSALINA IS STRONG, HAS FEW STRINGS OF MOVES THAT GIVE DEVASTATING PERCENT, HAS LUMA WHO DOESN'T TAKE DAMAGE BUT IS A ***** TO KILL AND WHEN YOU FINALLY DO YOU HAVE 12 SECONDS TO GET A COMBO GOING MEANWHILE THE ROSA IS RUNNING LIKE A *****. LUMA CAN BE SHOT OFF STAGE AND THROW OUT SMASH ATTACKS OR LEDGE GUARDS MAKING IT EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO RECOVER. LUMA ALSO CAN TRAP YOU BETWEEN HER A ROSALINA AND CONTINUOUSLY THROW OUT MOVES. IF YOU HAPPEN TO GET A SHIELD BREAK AND WANNA PUNISH IT... NOPE.

SEEMS TO ME LIKE ROSALINA HAS TONS OF WAYS TO PUNISH THE CAST BUT HAS FEW OPPORTUNITIES TO BE PUNISHED. LIKE 12 ****ING SECONDS WHAT IS THIS... ESPECIALLY SINCE LUMA CAN ****ING BE WARPED BACK TO ROSA. LIKE ITS NOT FAIR, ITS NOT FUN, ITS JUST STUPID AND I DONT SEE HOW ANYONE COULD ENJOY PLAYING LIKE THAT.
 

ChikoLad

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She has no glaring weakness in the hands of a player who realises her potential, as she has some kind of option or trick up her sleeve to moot any weaknesses she has (e.g. her light weight is easily offset by Luma, and her exceptional evasion abilities, among other things). There are no players like that yet, though, not 100% of the way.

This goes for SoRo too. I strongly disagree that she is "half a character" without Luma. SoRo still can be an exceptional close combat fighter in the right hands, and has her own fair share of combos and strings. In fact, they are easier to do than anything involving Luma. But they are not as potent, though she has a lot of powerful KO options anyway without Luma.
 

mario123007

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She has no glaring weakness in the hands of a player who realises her potential, as she has some kind of option or trick up her sleeve to moot any weaknesses she has (e.g. her light weight is easily offset by Luma, and her exceptional evasion abilities, among other things). There are no players like that yet, though, not 100% of the way.

This goes for SoRo too. I strongly disagree that she is "half a character" without Luma. SoRo still can be an exceptional close combat fighter in the right hands, and has her own fair share of combos and strings. In fact, they are easier to do than anything involving Luma. But they are not as potent, though she has a lot of powerful KO options anyway without Luma.
Whenever my Rosa turns to SoRo, I always notice that Rosalina's attacks are "One fist short"...
SoRo disadvantages are smaller hitboxes because without Luma, doing Up air with out Luma is really hard to KO opponents, and you can't easily edgeguard without Luma. I think I might train using my Rosalina in SoRo mode more often.
 

ChikoLad

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Whenever my Rosa turns to SoRo, I always notice that Rosalina's attacks are "One fist short"...
SoRo disadvantages are smaller hitboxes because without Luma, doing Up air with out Luma is really hard to KO opponents, and you can't easily edgeguard without Luma. I think I might train using my Rosalina in SoRo mode more often.
They aren't smaller hitboxes. Luma is a second hitbox. There's a difference.

Also Rosalina still has some of the best range in the game without Luma when it comes to melee attacks.
 

mario123007

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They aren't smaller hitboxes. Luma is a second hitbox. There's a difference.

Also Rosalina still has some of the best range in the game without Luma when it comes to melee attacks.
That's right, I just can't used to SoRo's hitbox without Luma, so I often try to avoid opponent's attacks until Luma respawns again. And even so, because Luma's attacks has more knockback compare to Rosalina's, this means I need to be very advance to her movesets when in SoRo to ko opponents. In SoRo mode, I think she can at least give her opponent damage, but can't ko them that easily.
 

ChikoLad

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That's right, I just can't used to SoRo's hitbox without Luma, so I often try to avoid opponent's attacks until Luma respawns again. And even so, because Luma's attacks has more knockback compare to Rosalina's, this means I need to be very advance to her movesets when in SoRo to ko opponents. In SoRo mode, I think she can at least give her opponent damage, but can't ko them that easily.
Actually that isn't universal. Rosalina's U-air is way stronger than Luma's, to a point where ZeRo whines for it to be nerfed. Rosalina's D-air spikes, while Luma's does not. Rosalina's jab finisher is the better KO move compared to Luma's. Etc, etc.
 
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mario123007

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Actually that isn't universal. Rosalina's U-air is way stronger than Luma's, to a point where ZeRo whines for it to be nerfed. Rosalina's D-air spikes, while Luma's does not. Rosalina's jab finisher is the better KO move compared to Luma's. Etc, etc.
Really? But her Up-air has to be your opponent right on top of you to work right? With Luma, it's easier to up-ko because you can just use Luma to do the push.

D-air totally agreed, but again, Rosalina can only spike opponent by hitting it in the center of the ring. It really requires skill.

Can you give me some more useful SoRo tips please? I'm really bad at being SoRo recently...
 
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Athrel

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Actually that isn't universal. Rosalina's U-air is way stronger than Luma's, to a point where ZeRo whines for it to be nerfed. Rosalina's D-air spikes, while Luma's does not. Rosalina's jab finisher is the better KO move compared to Luma's. Etc, etc.
Whether or not rosalina's up air is stronger than luma's actually depends on the opponents percentage. Luma's extremely high base knockback means that for most percentages under around 110% Luma's up air is stronger. After that point Rosalina's superior knockback growth lets her overtake Luma, but considering that Luma's can K.O. at around 100 (or earlier) after an up-throw anyway Luma's is stronger in most realistic situations.

As for their dairs, both have their own niche. Rosa's transcendent meteor makes quick work of characters like falcon or olimar who have exploitable recoveries potentially as early as 30% whereas Luma's ridiculous base and growth on his dair can net him some super early surprise horizantal KO's (My personal record is 70% on a Roy). Their dairs are probably equally useful, but I find Luma's more satisfying to connect with (It's also 10 frames faster than Rosa's meteor).
 

ChikoLad

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Really? But her Up-air has to be your opponent right on top of you to work right? With Luma, it's easier to up-ko because you can just use Luma to do the push.

D-air totally agreed, but again, Rosalina can only spike opponent by hitting it in the center of the ring. It really requires skill.

Can you give me some more useful SoRo tips please? I'm really bad at being SoRo recently...
Luma's U-air launches at an angle. Rosalina's U-air launches straight up and when sweet-spotted, has better launch power.

D-air doesn't require you hit with the center to spike with it. It has four hitboxes over the course of the animation. The second one spikes. It's just a timing thing.
 
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mario123007

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Luma's U-air launches at an angle. Rosalina's U-air launches straight up and when sweet-spotted, has better launch power.

D-air doesn't require you hit with the center to spike with it. It has four hitboxes over the course of the animation. The second one spikes. It's just a timing thing.
Yep, it's timing part that I found the most trouble with, and so is getting the sweet spot.
 

ChikoLad

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Whether or not rosalina's up air is stronger than luma's actually depends on the opponents percentage. Luma's extremely high base knockback means that for most percentages under around 110% Luma's up air is stronger. After that point Rosalina's superior knockback growth lets her overtake Luma, but considering that Luma's can K.O. at around 100 (or earlier) after an up-throw anyway Luma's is stronger in most realistic situations.

As for their dairs, both have their own niche. Rosa's transcendent meteor makes quick work of characters like falcon or olimar who have exploitable recoveries potentially as early as 30% whereas Luma's ridiculous base and growth on his dair can net him some super early surprise horizantal KO's (My personal record is 70% on a Roy). Their dairs are probably equally useful, but I find Luma's more satisfying to connect with (It's also 10 frames faster than Rosa's meteor).
I disagree since Rosalina launches them straight up, Luma launches at an angle. It's possible to KO Bowser as low 60% with Rosalina's U-air, without rage. I also KO'd a Charizard at 42% without rage just the other day.
 

mario123007

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I disagree since Rosalina launches them straight up, Luma launches at an angle. It's possible to KO Bowser as low 60% with Rosalina's U-air, without rage. I also KO'd a Charizard at 42% without rage just the other day.
But her Up air's sweetspot is just hard to get in my opinion, where as you can just use Luma to do the Up air, and it often works for me.
I might need to test this out some day.
 

Athrel

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I disagree since Rosalina launches them straight up, Luma launches at an angle. It's possible to KO Bowser as low 60% with Rosalina's U-air, without rage. I also KO'd a Charizard at 42% without rage just the other day.
Rosa's is technically an angle too (88 degrees to be exact) whereas, according to kuroganehammer's collection of her frame data, Luma's can either launch at 92 or 108 degrees (I'm guessing it depends on which part of luma hits the opponent). if you get the 92 degree knockback, you're sending them at essentially the same angle Rosa does but in the other direction.

But her Up air's sweetspot is just hard to get in my opinion, where as you can just use Luma to do the Up air, and it often works for me.
I might need to test this out some day.
The sweetspot's the first of the three hitboxes so you should be able to land it by having her head as close to the opponent as possible before doing the move.
 
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mario123007

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Rosa's is technically an angle too (88 degrees to be exact) whereas, according to kuroganehammer's collection of her frame data, Luma's can either launch at 92 or 108 degrees (I'm guessing it depends on which part of luma hits the opponent). if you get the 92 degree knockback, you're sending them at essentially the same angle Rosa does but in the other direction.



The sweetspot's the first of the three hitboxes so you should be able to land it by having her head as close to the opponent as possible before doing the move.
Ok, I'll try, but that's kind of risky too...
 

ChikoLad

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Rosa's is technically an angle too (88 degrees to be exact) whereas, according to kuroganehammer's collection of her frame data, Luma's can either launch at 92 or 108 degrees (I'm guessing it depends on which part of luma hits the opponent). if you get the 92 degree knockback, you're sending them at essentially the same angle Rosa does but in the other direction.



The sweetspot's the first of the three hitboxes so you should be able to land it by having her head as close to the opponent as possible before doing the move.
I've never had that happen, nor has Luma's U-air ever come close to KO'ing someone before Rosalina's would. It seems apparent that Rosalina's is the main KO move, especially against heavier characters. That's not to say you can't get KO's with Luma's, but unless you detether him and have him hang around real high up and knock them into Luma with Rosalina, Luma's U-air isn't KOing before Rosalina's.
 

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I've never had that happen, nor has Luma's U-air ever come close to KO'ing someone before Rosalina's would. It seems apparent that Rosalina's is the main KO move, especially against heavier characters. That's not to say you can't get KO's with Luma's, but unless you detether him and have him hang around real high up and knock them into Luma with Rosalina, Luma's U-air isn't KOing before Rosalina's.
I still always found Luma really useful for KOing opponents by using up air, but I do found out that Rosalina's up air do have a huge knockback if hit by sweetspot, but you have to get the sweetspot by having her head as close to the opponent as possible before doing the move. Where as Luma can hit opponents on the side. So I guess that Luma is the one who does the push, while Rosalina does the KO move.
 

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I've always been interested in Rosalina as a secondary, but I have hardly any good control over that Luma, so...

And Zelda/Palutena as other secondaries when I'm already having plenty of trouble with Lucina... yeah, I should just quit while I'm ahead. Which I've done, before I end up breaking down all my walls. One already has a nice, big dent.
 

SpottedCerberus

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The shield break thing doesn't matter. Shield breaks are pretty uncommon, especially in high level play. When a shield break does occur, it's usually completely avoidable.

Anyway, Rosalina has a lot of weaknesses. She has a large hurtbox and she's a lightweight. Her recovery has no hitbox. Luma can be knocked off stage with a single well-placed attack. Exploit these things.
 

Iceweasel

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The shield break thing doesn't matter.
My best alt is Lucina. Shield breaks absolutely do matter.

When a shield break does occur, it's usually completely avoidable.
That's because most characters have to fear a shield break. A shield break on every other character spells death the vast majority of the time, so if they get a low shield they'd rather take the hit than be completely open to any combo or fully-charged smash their opponent can use. If you can still guard yourself with a broken shield, you don't have to be moderate in shield usage, and if you can safely wall your opponents you don't have to worry nearly as much about being grabbed. In other words, the two balancing factors to shields don't apply to you.
 

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Rosalina's fastest move is dtilt, at 5 frames. Luma's fastest grounded move is utilt, at 3 frames, although I've literally never seen anyone use utilt as a GTFO option. Getting past the Great Wall of Luma is admittedly tricky, but if you do, Rosalina lacks fast CQC options.

Here's what Luma can do to free Rosalina from sticky situations, and the mechanics behind it:

Grabs: Luma can free Rosalina from a grab. First, Rosalina can simply input a fairly quick attack such as jab before getting grabbed, but not fast enough for her hitbox to actually protect her. In such a case, she'll be grabbed but Luma, who cannot be grabbed, will still proceed with its own version of the attack. This will hit the opponent and free Rosalina.. (It's important to clarify here and now that Luma will never, I repeat, NEVER, attack of its own volition. Whenever it does anything other than move around, it's because Rosalina pressed a button.) In rare and not-completely-understood cases, Rosalina can also mash buttons while being pummeled and make Luma attack, although I'm personally uncertain as to what limits exist on this ability. The correct action to avoid getting bopped by Luma is to throw Rosalina immediately without pummeling, and do not try to beat her faster options with a grab. (If Luma is absent, you can of course pummel all you like.)

Combos/Strings/Followups: If an attack hits Rosalina but not Luma, or if an attack hits both but is not strong enough to send Luma flying, you'll find yourself somewhere nearby Luma while Rosalina is in hitstun. Here it's important to note that you can airdodge out of hitstun before you can jump or attack. Once Rosalina is able to airdodge, even if she herself cannot attack, her button presses will reach Luma and make it attack. When this happens, Luma will start to fly back to Rosalina at the same moment it starts attacking -- imagine a straight line from Luma to Rosalina to figure out how it will move. (This applies only if Luma is linked to Rosalina at the time, i.e. Rosalina did not use Luma Shot.) The correct action here is to either shield Luma's attack, hit Luma quickly with a reasonably fast move (Luma cannot do anything when it's in hitstun or in a tumble animation), or avoid the line from Luma to Rosalina when moving for your followup. Since the time to Luma's counterattack depends on Rosalina's hitstun, you will have more time to do whatever when Rosalina has more damage.

Sleep/Stun: When Rosalina is asleep or stunned, she can still press buttons to make Luma attack. When in the air from a shield break animation, she can make Luma do any aerial except bair, and when asleep/stunned on the ground she can make Luma jab (including the gentleman and rapid finisher) or do a tilt, but she can't make it do a smash. The correct action here is to swat Luma away with anything strong enough to send it flying before moving in on Rosalina. Alternately, use something that outranges Luma, but be aware that Luma's second and third jab will move it forward, so Rosalina can give it a little extra range that way.

Helpless: When Rosalina is in helpless fall state after using Launch Star, she can make Luma perform any aerial except bair. The correct action is to simply be aware of this and time/space your punish to avoid Luma -- from behind is best given the restriction on bair.

Landing: When Rosalina lands on the ground, she can perform an aerial a few frames before landing. Done correctly, she will land without any landing lag since the attack has not even started yet, but Luma will still perform its version. Since she incurs no landing lag, Rosalina is free to act while Luma attacks. If Luma is linked to Rosalina at the time, it will follow her as she moves around. This technique is known as Lunar Landing. The correct action is to be aware of this option and be ready to punish improperly timed attempts -- the techinque requires single-digit frame precision (exact numbers depend on the aerial she uses) and performing it too early will result in normal landing lag. Performing it too late will result in a normal landing followed by a jab, tilt, or smash depending on what buttons Rosalina pressed.

Land Mine: When landing on the ground from hitstun or helpless, or when recovering from sleep or stun, Rosalina can mash the jab button to make Luma perform its rapid jab, then hold the button before she herself does her own rapid jab. She is then able to move around freely while Luma continues spinning in place, wherever it is. She can even perform tilts, smashes, and aerials by very briefly releasing the button and pressing it again -- if she's fast enough, it won't interrupt Luma. She cannot use specials without making Luma perform its finisher. The correct action here is to hit Luma with literally anything -- hitstun will break it out of its rapid jab.
This was very informative--Thank you! However, I would like to address a few things... Rosa's fastest move is frame 5, while Mario's fastest is frame 3 (nair and up+b?). What really concerns me is how you say that we have to study a lot of single frame data in order to defeat Rosalina, which is quite a difficult feat. I don't have much difficulty with getting Luma offstage or destroyed, as it's pretty much one of the few ways one can actually approach her, but a big issue here is that you said that she becomes "half a character" without Luma, almost relating her to SoPo, which I believe is untrue. Projectile approaches are completely obsolete against a good Rosalina, so I won't spend much time on that.
Rosalina has wickedly good spacing options on every one of her moves (She's the Queen of Space, after all), and an outstanding recovery should she get sent offstage (or decide to stall). Her light weight makes her somewhat hard to combo, as she can often escape without much difficulty, even without Luma. Not only are her moves incredibly spacious, they are also incredibly time-consuming, making the Luma countdown all the more drastic of a punish, alongside good damage and knockback. I honestly think that this character has quite possibly the least amount of weaknesses of any character in the entire game--and while she requires a very high amount of skill to play proficiently and with consistency, it requires a much higher amount of skill to actually defeat her.

My opinion aside, thank you for all the great Rosalina knowledge! It's much appreciated! :)

Edit: Grammar fixes!
 
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SpottedCerberus

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When she tries to mess up your projectile approach with down-b, punish her for it. The move lasts a while and she's defenseless for its duration.

If Rosalina is that good, then why is Dabuz the only player who has had major success with her? And why does he have to rely on his Olimar secondary so much?

Sheik clearly has fewer weaknesses than Rosalina. She has no negative match-ups and few that are even. Rosalina has several negative match-ups. She loses hard to Meta Knight, for instance.
 

FrankTheStud

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When she tries to mess up your projectile approach with down-b, punish her for it. The move lasts a while and she's defenseless for its duration.

If Rosalina is that good, then why is Dabuz the only player who has had major success with her? And why does he have to rely on his Olimar secondary so much?

Sheik clearly has fewer weaknesses than Rosalina. She has no negative match-ups and few that are even. Rosalina has several negative match-ups. She loses hard to Meta Knight, for instance.
You mean she's defenseless while I exhaust my FLUDD to try to force-change her position, and while my hands cool off from throwing fire? Luma as a meat shield and shields still exist as well, making projectile play even rougher. The lag time on down b isn't as high as people think it is, and even at that it'd require a good read to punish to it's full potential--Which could also lead to running into a shield grab or a Luma to the nose.
Everyone needs a secondary, so I don't know what you mean by that comment about Dabuz and Olimar. No MKs in Evo's top 8, and Aba really won against him because of well timed wafts (which is a risky punish that literally revolves around countering the entire way Dabuz plays), and that Dabuz owned a house in Choke City at Evo. It's funny--Wario has to counter-stall to a waft in order to have a CHANCE at landing it and killing Dabuz's Rosalina... Aba literally countered Dabuz as a person, instead of Rosalina as a character, and in a very risky way. (Which is why his Wario didn't win many battles after him). Maybe Jigglypuff and Luigi are good counters to Rosalina, and we just have to keep trying to land risky Down B's and Up B's througout the set. We may as well if we're being forced to focus on single-digit frames to punish her. Yes, I'm being somewhat sarcastic, but also somewhat realistic and honest, which is a scary realization.
As far as Sheik goes, she's wicked good, definitely top 3 (With Rosalina) but Zero won Evo with a nerfed Diddy Kong against her, so I don't know where we're going with this. Zero's Sheik being played hyper-aggressively is as good for him as Dabuz playing Rosalina hyper-defensively... The only difference is that someone finally figured Dabuz out.
 

ChikoLad

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When she tries to mess up your projectile approach with down-b, punish her for it. The move lasts a while and she's defenseless for its duration.

If Rosalina is that good, then why is Dabuz the only player who has had major success with her? And why does he have to rely on his Olimar secondary so much?

Sheik clearly has fewer weaknesses than Rosalina. She has no negative match-ups and few that are even. Rosalina has several negative match-ups. She loses hard to Meta Knight, for instance.
Because Dabuz has a flawed playstyle with her, but it's heavily personalised. However, Rosalina mains simply try to copy him. This results in them trying to copy a playstyle another player has mastered, even though it's a very flawed one.

Rosalina doesn't really have any major weaknesses. Any weakness you list is mitigated by one of her strengths, made a moot point of. That's why she's top tier.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Anyway, Rosalina has a lot of weaknesses. She has a large hurtbox and she's a lightweight. Her recovery has no hitbox. Luma can be knocked off stage with a single well-placed attack. Exploit these things.
That's only true if Rosalina is not using Launch Star Attack. However, that move is flawed in that you're giving up travel distance for the ability to damage others while recovering, and the extra nail in the coffin is that the move halts Rosalina's momentum when it ends.
 

ChikoLad

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I'd also like to note that Launch Star isn't completely without offensive use - Luma can still attack while Rosalina is falling helplessly. It's also the perfect start for the "Luma Spin" Advanced Technique.
 

FrankTheStud

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Because Dabuz has a flawed playstyle with her, but it's heavily personalised. However, Rosalina mains simply try to copy him. This results in them trying to copy a playstyle another player has mastered, even though it's a very flawed one.

Rosalina doesn't really have any major weaknesses. Any weakness you list is mitigated by one of her strengths, made a moot point of. That's why she's top tier.
I wouldn't necessarily say it's "flawed," as none of us here were top 8 at Evo (that I know of...If you're famous, speak up!!) I would just say he got figured out and is finally forced to expand/change his playstyle with her... Aba and Dabuz played defensively before, losing via time out on thier Pac vs Rosa matches almost every round--Aba simply adapted to win this time, however risky or insane his adaption was, and Dabuz was caught off guard because of that. (Just like most of us watching Evo!) My only concern is that Aba had to literally counter Dabuz as a player in order to effectively counter his Rosalina, which when you think about it requires an incredible amount of mind-games to accomplish--It's not about the game anymore, it's about the way the player thinks.
 

ChikoLad

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I wouldn't necessarily say it's "flawed," as none of us here were top 8 at Evo (that I know of...If you're famous, speak up!!) I would just say he got figured out and is finally forced to expand/change his playstyle with her... Aba and Dabuz played defensively before, losing via time out on thier Pac vs Rosa matches almost every round--Aba simply adapted to win this time, however risky or insane his adaption was, and Dabuz was caught off guard because of that. (Just like most of us watching Evo!) My only concern is that Aba had to literally counter Dabuz as a player in order to effectively counter his Rosalina, which when you think about it requires an incredible amount of mind-games to accomplish--It's not about the game anymore, it's about the way the player thinks.
No, it absolutely is a flawed playstyle.

Dabuz's playstyle is about hyper defense. He camps, he will stall for time, he will not make a move unless he has assured himself that there is zero chance of it missing and zero chance of him taking damage, and he will rarely let Luma loose (if customs are off, he never does). He also doesn't do combos so much as he hits and runs, and he always retreats when Luma is KO'd.

This effectively means he's only using a portion of Rosalina's known potential. And because his playstyle carries over into other characters he plays, it makes him very predictable. He may have mastered the things he does, but his playstyle is a simple one anyway. It says a lot that despite Dabuz getting so many good results, he can't seem to take the big tournaments as much as he should, and that he is one of the only players who claims Rosalina "isn't even close to top tier", while everyone else believes she is, even ZeRo - who ALWAYS beats Dabuz, often times with characters that have a clear disadvantage in the Rosalina MU. He blames the faults of his own playstyle on the character.

Also his performance in EVO Top 8 was actually pretty abysmal even for his playstyle. He SD'd in the first ten seconds against Abadango through no fault but his own, so don't tell me that just because I have never been in EVO Top 8 (I have never entered tournaments largely because it's just not feasible for me - people seem to forget that aspect of entering tournaments), I can't criticise and point out the flaws in the playstyle of someone who has. I don't need to be a movie director to say Birdemic is a hilariously terrible movie. There's also the fact that professional players benefit from the stagnation of a character's meta.

Rosalina should ideally be played as a paradigm shifter, since you're actually controlling two characters and both characters can cover any playstyle very well, either together at the same time, or by covering two different playstyles between them. This should be common sense, but people are more content with Dabuz's way of playing because it's easier to grasp, even if it is limiting. By learning how to use Rosalina & Luma as offensive characters, defensive characters, mind game centric characters, bait and punish characters, campy characters, rushdown characters, etc, both TOGETHER and SEPARATELY (separately referring to them covering two different playstyles at once, rather than one playstyle at the same time), only then are you attempting to truly master the character. Being able to dynamically switch which kind of playstyle Rosalina and Luma cover individually is the key to mastering Rosalina & Luma, not simply mastering one specific playstyle for both of them.
 
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FrankTheStud

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No, it absolutely is a flawed playstyle.

Dabuz's playstyle is about hyper defense. He camps, he will stall for time, he will not make a move unless he has assured himself that there is zero chance of it missing and zero chance of him taking damage, and he will rarely let Luma loose (if customs are off, he never does). He also doesn't do combos so much as he hits and runs, and he always retreats when Luma is KO'd.

This effectively means he's only using a portion of Rosalina's known potential. And because his playstyle carries over into other characters he plays, it makes him very predictable. He may have mastered the things he does, but his playstyle is a simple one anyway. It says a lot that despite Dabuz getting so many good results, he can't seem to take the big tournaments as much as he should, and that he is one of the only players who claims Rosalina "isn't even close to top tier", while everyone else believes she is, even ZeRo - who ALWAYS beats Dabuz, often times with characters that have a clear disadvantage in the Rosalina MU. He blames the faults of his own playstyle on the character.

Also his performance in EVO Top 8 was actually pretty abysmal even for his playstyle. He SD'd in the first ten seconds against Abadango through no fault but his own, so don't tell me that just because I have never been in EVO Top 8 (I have never entered tournaments largely because it's just not feasible for me - people seem to forget that aspect of entering tournaments), I can't criticise and point out the flaws in the playstyle of someone who has. I don't need to be a movie director to say Birdemic is a hilariously terrible movie. There's also the fact that professional players benefit from the stagnation of a character's meta.

Rosalina should ideally be played as a paradigm shifter, since you're actually controlling two characters and both characters can cover any playstyle very well, either together at the same time, or by covering two different playstyles between them. This should be common sense, but people are more content with Dabuz's way of playing because it's easier to grasp, even if it is limiting. By learning how to use Rosalina & Luma as offensive characters, defensive characters, mind game centric characters, bait and punish characters, campy characters, rushdown characters, etc, both TOGETHER and SEPARATELY (separately referring to them covering two different playstyles at once, rather than one playstyle at the same time), only then are you attempting to truly master the character. Being able to dynamically switch which kind of playstyle Rosalina and Luma cover individually is the key to mastering Rosalina & Luma, not simply mastering one specific playstyle for both of them.
I never said you couldn't critique him on his playstyle, that's what I've been doing for a lot of this thread... The difference is that you said that his playstyle is "wrong," and haven't shown any proof of a "right" Rosalina play. His play gets him to top 8, even with his terrible Evo performance, and yours hasn't gotten you nearly as far--So what weight does your opinion of "wrong playstyle" hold?

Once again, it's one thing to critique, it's another thing to tell a top player that their play is straight up "wrong" with no data of what "right" is.
 

ChikoLad

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I never said you couldn't critique him on his playstyle, that's what I've been doing for a lot of this thread... The difference is that you said that his playstyle is "wrong," and haven't shown any proof of a "right" Rosalina play. His play gets him to top 8, even with his terrible Evo performance, and yours hasn't gotten you nearly as far--So what weight does your opinion of "wrong playstyle" hold?

Once again, it's one thing to critique, it's another thing to tell a top player that their play is straight up "wrong" with no data of what "right" is.
As I've said, I've simply not had the opportunity to enter tournaments due to personal reasons (finance, responsiblities, etc). That doesn't mean I haven't practiced, beat tournament players, etc. I have been vigorously training with Rosalina since launch and am even currently developing new tech for her. I am more than at liberty to critique another player's playstyle.

I also never said his playstyle was wrong, I said it's flawed, limiting, and not close to the full potential of the character, so please don't put words in my mouth. It's up to Dabuz if he wants to keep that playstyle up, though it hasn't been winning him many tournaments lately (the difference between him and I is that I haven't made my debut yet - I haven't won, but I also haven't been losing - however, some other players like Falln are really offensive and do well, while Dabuz has been doing worse lately), so I think that's enough proof that his playstyle isn't optimal.

My playstyle (and just the optimal playstyle for the character) entails everything Dabuz does, and much more. I don't see how you can argue it isn't a better way to go. Switching Rosalina & Luma's individual roles based on the situation is objectively better than giving them both a defensive role regardless of the situation. It's common sense, and just means you have to adapt.

People can specialise playing Rosalina one specific way if they want to, but they should do that realising that they are missing out and not tapping into everything the character does.
 
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