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Rosalina can no longer attack whilst being grabbed.

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DarkKiru

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This will effect good Rosalinas actually, because it means they no longer have an effective counter to being grabbed. Without this, Rosalina can be grabbed a lot easier (she's one of the biggest characters in the game).

I also doubt she has the highest FG win rate. She isn't as popular as the likes of Greninja and Sheik in the context of Smash, and those two are also high performing characters.
I should've clarified, it will affect them, though I don't think it would do very much since Luma can still act the moment shes released from the grab (either by grab escape or being thrown)

Still, that said, im not sure how I feel about the change since while it likely won't be absurdly noteworthy (as in, people will learn to adapt to it and still likely do fine with Rosa since shes still overall a very good character). Its still a change thats quite soon, especially given that even in the highest level play, she hasn't shown to be a problem character
 
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ParanoidDrone

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This is a piece of news and I'll be checking the competitive subforum to see if anyone there has noticed yet. (If not I'll bring it up.)

@ ChikoLad ChikoLad I sympathize with your view but it's equally true that as a "real" puppet fighter (the Ice Climbers got there by accident because desynchs) Rosalina is treading completely new ground in Smash and it stands to reason that the devs may have decided to tone down some of what Luma can do. The inability to properly punish Rosalina with a grab has been a major sticking point on the competitive character discussion thread, and this will go a long way towards silencing some of the people claiming she breaks the game in half.

As a Rosalina main myself (aren't we all, this is the Rosalina forum) I'm of course less than thrilled but IMO this is preferable to possibly even more extreme measures like nerfing Luma itself, reducing its HP, etc.

Also...
I didn't have the opportunity to test but I'm fairly certain Luma can still help Rosalina in shield break/free fall animation/hitstun oh and while getting up from being knocked down. I think that's all there were. The only one I remember noticing was getting up from the ground.
If you could test that and report back that would be fan-freaking-tastic. I admit I'm slightly apprehensive of the results.
 

ChikoLad

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What does bother me, is with the way these balance changes are going, it's going to lead Rosalina to being a much more campy character. That isn't really fun for anyone.
That's my main worry - nerfing Rosalina to the point where her utility is gone and she is stuck to a campy playstyle that won't be fun. If I find she is reduced to that, I dare say I may not main her anymore. Because the reason I find her fun to play is because she has so much utility, she isn't stuck to a specific play style archetype. Even if she remained high tier, I won't play her if she is forced into a play style I simply don't enjoy.

Everytime I attack rosalina, luma counter. With low knocback attack (most fast attack) or grab. Because if rosa send a input few frame after getting hit or grabed or at the same time but with lower priority, luma still apply the last input. So my match against rosa was me waiting for her attack engage so she cannot send any input to rosa when i strike back. It also mean if she doesn't engage, we had no fight.

So im glad of this nerf.
You say this being a Lucina main, a character who literally has a move called "Counter", that can counter any attack at the drop of a hat for free, and can't be read provided the Lucina player has sharp reflexes.

I should've clarified, it will affect them, though I don't think it would do very much since Luma can still act the moment shes released from the grab (either by grab escape or being thrown)

Still, that said, im not sure how I feel about the change since while it likely won't be absurdly noteworthy (as in, people will learn to adapt to it and still likely do fine with Rosa since shes still overall a very good character). Its still a change thats quite soon, especially given that even in the highest level play, she hasn't shown to be a problem character
That's useless though if you employ the counters I have noted above, such as swinging Rosalina into Luma.

The inability to properly punish Rosalina with a grab has been a major sticking point on the competitive character discussion thread, and this will go a long way towards silencing some of the people claiming she breaks the game in half.
But you can properly punish Rosalina with a grab, I've already stated three methods of doing so.

I'm not concerned with silencing whiners who don't know how to play against her because if those people refuse to take the advice of Rosalina mains, then that is their fault and frankly, their opinions are invalid.

Just look at any of the past threads involving Rosalina being hard to fight where we give other people advice, and they refuse to listen.

Rosalina is not over powered. She didn't need a nerf. It's that simple. All of her strengths have counters. While some of those counters are only available to certain characters, then that means other characters should be improved, not the better ones nerfed.
 
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Clemente

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Warning Received
Not surprised whatsoever.

I also hear her aerial hitboxes are nerfed.

Well deserved nerf


I think this way too fundamental a thing to change.

...

completely unwarranted.
Why do you want to main an OP character so badly?
 
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ChikoLad

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Not surprised whatsoever.

I also hear her aerial hitboxes are nerfed.

Well deserved nerf




Why do you want to main an OP character so badly?
Why are you terrible at Smash and productive discussion? :c
 
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Luggy

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This is how it was supposed to be.

But yeah, good news for the people who thinks that Rosaluma is broken.
 

Clemente

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Why are you terrible at Smash and productive discussion? :c
How am I terrible at Smash lol? I'm up to 83% winrate using Pit exclusively with 4000+ matches.

I get wins using a mid tier character - not one that's fundamentally broken & easymode.
 
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ChikoLad

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This is how it was supposed to be.

But yeah, good news for the people who thinks that Rosaluma is broken.
You mean you're supposed to separate the two and grab her, like that GIF is demonstrating, and like I have been telling people?
 
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Clemente

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There, Clemmy, have a cookie:
I wasn't looking for praise.

I just think it's funny that every time I bring up how fundamentally broken Rosalina is, sonicbrawler says "GET GOOD, YOU JUST NEED TO PRACTICE MORE! You want nerfs because you don't want to practice!"

Sorry, but Rosalina being STAGGERINGLY OP has nothing to do with my personal skill level.

I'm glad for the Luma respawn nerfs and this nerf when being grabbed -- I fully expect her to be nerfed even more in the future.
 
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Luggy

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I just think it's funny that every time I bring up how fundamentally broken Rosalina is, sonicbrawler says "GET GOOD, YOU JUST NEED TO PRACTICE MORE! You want nerfs because you don't want to practice!"

Sorry, but Rosalina being STAGGERINGLY OP has nothing to do with my personal skill level.

I'm glad for the Luma respawn nerfs and this nerf when being grabbed -- I fully expect her to be nerfed even more in the future.
I never had any "big problems" with her personally. I in fact love to fight Rosaluma, it's even more challenging compare to other characters.

And I don't think she'll be nerfed that much. I don't see where she could be nerfed really. Other characters might be nerfed like Lil'Mac, but I don't think Rosaluma will be touched that much.
 

Warlock*G

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I wasn't looking for praise.

I just think it's funny that every time I bring up how fundamentally broken Rosalina is, sonicbrawler says "GET GOOD, YOU JUST NEED TO PRACTICE MORE! You want nerfs because you don't want to practice!"

Sorry, but Rosalina being STAGGERINGLY OP has nothing to do with my personal skill level.

I'm glad for the Luma respawn nerfs and this nerf when being grabbed -- I fully expect her to be nerfed even more in the future.
Let's transport ourselves to the future. After a bunch of tournaments, once the first tier list is out, say Rosalina is declared OP because she won all tourneys.

Why nerf her then? Why not boost other characters instead? It would be more interesting that way, instead of removing unique characteristics from one or more characters.
 

Shog

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This is good news! I like the idea that no Brawl Meta-Knight situation can happen.
 
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Johnknight1

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To me the problem wasn't so much that she's good but that she's boring to play as or against if you truly play to win.

It just is not fun sitting back and doing a projectile battle all day. I want action, I was lots of mixups, I want risks, and matches with Rosalina to require more than just this standard fare of frankly boring matches.

Hopefully this forces Rosalina players to play smarter, their matches to be more entertaining, and forces players of Rosalina to play the character in more ways that is ultimately more deep.
 

Clemente

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Let's transport ourselves to the future. After a bunch of tournaments, once the first tier list is out, say Rosalina is declared OP because she won all tourneys.

Why nerf her then? Why not boost other characters instead? It would be more interesting that way, instead of removing unique characteristics from one or more characters.
Because it's not that simple. You always propose your counter argument in very vague terms. You have to look at the specifics of WHY Rosalina is broken, which has much to do with her extra level of play (the puppet) when it comes to balancing her with other characters.


Do you say this every time a character you dislike is nerfed?
... nope? I just do expect her to be nerfed even more. I already said there was going to be more nerfs besides the respawn timer, and I turned out to be right. There will def. be more.
 

Game And Guy

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Anyway, I guess some people have had enough of seeing the Luma be like a security blanket for Rosalina, and the irony is that that's what makes Rosalina unique. Taking away the Luma's ability to save Rosalina from grabs pretty much messes up her uniqueness.
...no? Her uniqueness is the fact Luma is there in the first place. She's already unique for having a puppet. The fact Luma can body attacks is just another feature. A single nerf that is actually called for isn't the end of the world of her "uniqueness", it's simply a nerf of a dumb feature. The irony would be taking Luma out of the equation completely, if that even counts as irony.
 

Shog

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I don't get the Anti-Clemente stuff, he said that he expects more nerfs for characters like Rosalina, a puppet character, because she was broken.
He was right about there being more nerfs and now you write back wierd arguments like "why not boost anyone else?!"...
I thought his point was that because of her design, we could expect more nerfs. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't get the bashing.

Also, I don't get how people can defend the Luma not having a longer spawn time. There should be a reward defeating the cute obese star you know?
 

monadoboyy

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You say this being a Lucina main, a character who literally has a move called "Counter", that can counter any attack at the drop of a hat for free, and can't be read provided the Lucina player has sharp reflexes.
I don't get you. Countering is all about prediction, do it wrong and you'll be grabbed or punished. There're only benefits for breaking out of someone's grab on the other hand, and she's the only character in the roster that can do it, whereas some characters rely on grabs to do damage
 

Warlock*G

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Because it's not that simple.
I know. That's a reason not to try to you?

You always propose your counter argument in very vague terms.
"Always", huh? Suit yourself.

You have to look at the specifics of WHY Rosalina is broken, which has much to do with her extra level of play (the puppet) when it comes to balancing her with other characters.
Yeah, I think we heard that already.
 

ChikoLad

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I don't get you. Countering is all about prediction, do it wrong and you'll be grabbed or punished. There're only benefits for breaking out of someone's grab on the other hand, and she's the only character in the roster that can do it, whereas some characters rely on grabs to do damage
I don't have a problem with counters. I never said that.

But if you have a problem with what Rosalina can do, you should have a problem with counters, as it's the same thing, but with grabs instead. So a Lucina main having a problem with this particular tool of Rosalina's should have a problem with their own Down B.

I don't get the Anti-Clemente stuff, he said that he expects more nerfs for characters like Rosalina, a puppet character, because she was broken.
He was right about there being more nerfs and now you write back wierd arguments like "why not boost anyone else?!"...
I thought his point was that because of her design, we could expect more nerfs. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't get the bashing.

Also, I don't get how people can defend the Luma not having a longer spawn time. There should be a reward defeating the cute obese star you know?
I don't have a problem with respawn timer thing, I accepted it. Thought it was too early since people were figuring out how to deal with Luma anyway, but it wasn't a bad thing.

I do have a problem with outright removing one of Rosalina's tools though.
 
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Starbound

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I'm totally okay with this nerf. This isn't even that big of a deal.

Luma is still an essential component of Rosalina's moveset, but Luma also needs to be less of a troll. I don't think this will have much impact on her competitive viability.
 

Game And Guy

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Honestly, the alternative could have been heavily nerfing Rosalina herself. Luma could have kept all of its features, if that was the case.
 

Teshie U

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This is how it was supposed to be.

But yeah, good news for the people who thinks that Rosaluma is broken.
ironically, that same trailer prominently displayed luma respawning and saving rosalina from getting grabbed. I really hate to see a character's design become less faithful for balance.

First metaknight has a sword with no range and now rosaluma's puppetry is being nerfed.
 

monadoboyy

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I don't have a problem with counters. I never said that.

But if you have a problem with what Rosalina can do, you should have a problem with counters, as it's the same thing, but with grabs instead. So a Lucina main having a problem with this particular tool of Rosalina's should have a problem with their own Down B.
Never have I said you have a problem with counters or that I have a personal problem with luma breaking grabs (haven't fought many Rosalinas tbh), I'm just comparing both. I can see why people don't like this uniqueness of her.
 

ParanoidDrone

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ironically, that same trailer prominently displayed luma respawning and saving rosalina from getting grabbed. I really hate to see a character's design become less faithful for balance.

First metaknight has a sword with no range and now rosaluma's puppetry is being nerfed.
I'd forgotten her trailer showed off getting freed from DK's grab. That is an unfortunate thing but oh well.
 

Clemente

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I don't get the Anti-Clemente stuff, he said that he expects more nerfs for characters like Rosalina, a puppet character, because she was broken.
He was right about there being more nerfs and now you write back wierd arguments like "why not boost anyone else?!"...
I thought his point was that because of her design, we could expect more nerfs. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't get the bashing.

Also, I don't get how people can defend the Luma not having a longer spawn time. There should be a reward defeating the cute obese star you know?
I don't understand it either -- I'm just commenting on Rosalina and her design, but the people who main her sometimes act like it's them I'm attacking.

People can use whatever character they want.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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ironically, that same trailer prominently displayed luma respawning and saving rosalina from getting grabbed. I really hate to see a character's design become less faithful for balance.

First metaknight has a sword with no range and now rosaluma's puppetry is being nerfed.
Yeah it's just very ironic how something that was shown on Rosalina's trailer had to get taken away, all because of the so called balancing measures.


Remember this?

Sorry, but that won't ever be happening now. But like what @ ChikoLad ChikoLad mentioned, in Smash 3DS, if Rosalina is grabbed, the only thing that the Luma could do was its f-air, and that wasn't going to save Rosalina from getting thrown to oblivion.
 

NairWizard

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How am I terrible at Smash lol? I'm up to 83% winrate using Pit exclusively with 4000+ matches.

I get wins using a mid tier character - not one that's fundamentally broken & easymode.
I'm sorry, but having 83% win rate on For Glory does not mean that you're not terrible at smash. Out of 1200 matches, I've only encountered one player whom I would consider good enough to compete in my state tournaments. It is absolutely a "casual" mode. Even the most average of tourney players should have 98% or more winrate there using his/her main. That is the reality that no one wants to accept. Your 83% winrate means nothing, because you are beating casuals. Don't use it as a measure of your skill.
 
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Clemente

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I'm sorry, but having 83% win rate on For Glory does not mean that you're not terrible at smash. Out of 1200 matches, I've only encountered one player whom I would consider good enough to compete in my state tournaments. It is absolutely a "casual" mode. Even the most average of tourney players should have 98% or more winrate there. That is the reality that no one wants to accept. Your 83% winrate means nothing, because you are beating casuals. Don't use it as a measure of your skill.
I didn't mean it like that. This is my first bout of playing Smash Bros. in a serious capacity. I'm not delusional enough to think that I'm at a competitive level or anything.

I only cited my win rate because sonicbrawler has defaulted to the excuse that I always lose to Rosalina and that's the only reason I think she's OP -- which is just not true
 

ChikoLad

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I didn't mean it like that. This is my first bout of playing Smash Bros. in a serious capacity. I'm not delusional enough to think that I'm at a competitive level or anything.

I only cited my win rate because sonicbrawler has defaulted to the excuse that I always lose to Rosalina and that's the only reason I think she's OP -- which is just not true
I never said you always lose to Rosalina. If you think she is OP based on what you can comprehend of the character, then you must not be that good, nor must you be able to see past what you yourself can do (since you cite "I have never lost as her" as one of your main reasons - never losing as her in FG, that is).
 

NairWizard

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I didn't mean it like that. This is my first bout of playing Smash Bros. in a serious capacity. I'm not delusional enough to think that I'm at a competitive level or anything.

I only cited my win rate because sonicbrawler has defaulted to the excuse that I always lose to Rosalina and that's the only reason I think she's OP -- which is just not true
That's fair; it just annoys me that so many people consider For Glory competitive and then bring it to balance discussions (including Sakurai! -- this one has me nervous about future balance patches).

You seem to be keen on rubbing the nerf in the Rosalina mains' faces, though, and that's probably triggering their reaction to your posts. She did get nerfed; that should be enough, right? Why bring it up outside of that?
 

Clemente

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If you think she is OP based on what you can comprehend of the character, then you must not be that good, nor must you be able to see past what you yourself can do
Again, you can personally attack me if you wish, but what about the people working for Nintendo -- who, y'know, decided to go ahead with the nerf? Surely you don't think they all "must not be that good" because they decided to nerf her?

By the way, keep in mind that Nintendo has access to much more data than us. If they decided to remove one of her initially advertised features (the subject of this thread), then the situation must be pretty critical in their eyes


That's fair; it just annoys me that so many people consider For Glory competitive and then bring it to balance discussions (including Sakurai! -- this one has me nervous about future balance patches).

You seem to be keen on rubbing the nerf in the Rosalina mains' faces, though, and that's probably triggering their reaction to your posts. She did get nerfed; that should be enough, right? Why bring it up outside of that?
I'm discussing the nerf just like everyone else in the thread. The only difference is that I 100% agree with it.
 
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Luggy

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That's fair; it just annoys me that so many people consider For Glory competitive and then bring it to balance discussions (including Sakurai! -- this one has me nervous about future balance patches).

You seem to be keen on rubbing the nerf in the Rosalina mains' faces, though, and that's probably triggering their reaction to your posts. She did get nerfed; that should be enough, right? Why bring it up outside of that?
You know, it's not really the fault of Sakurai. He can't go see stuff like tournaments to try and balance the game, so looking at stats of the FG mode is quicker and easier. The big problem is, that's not the right way to do it. He should instead ask the community, see what they have to say instead at looking at stats and FG replays. But hey, I think Sakurai isn't dumb enough to nerf only the popular characters. I hope.
 
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