Rock Paper Scissors

[ChaosDrifter]

hmmmm i've always thought PT sucks balls too... maybe im on the right track to being qualified to enter the BBR

 

[victra♥]

hahaha luke. fantastic response LOL

 

[lilseph]

please x-plain

You don't need to play near perfect to realize the potential Marth has. I could play Marth for a day and realize that "holy **** this character is a beast." Marth is just an all around good charcater will very few flaws. One of them might be his recovery, which is mediocre at best. Other than his recovery, he has basically no flaws. He just requires A LOT of spacing and patience. Edge gurading is huge as well (second best edge guarding in the game). Point i'm getting at is that you don't have to play near perfect to know hes a good character, in fact you could play like **** and still know hes a good character.

 

[Alphicans]

I wouldn't say marth's edge guard game is 2nd best in the game, but I agree with Kyle's point. Marth is 2nd best in the game material, so naturally he is going to be broken, it's not hard to figure out.

 

[Diminisht]

You don't need to play near perfect to realize the potential Marth has. I could play Marth for a day and realize that "holy **** this character is a beast." Marth is just an all around good charcater will very few flaws. One of them might be his recovery, which is mediocre at best. Other than his recovery, he has basically no flaws. He just requires A LOT of spacing and patience. Edge gurading is huge as well (second best edge guarding in the game). Point i'm getting at is that you don't have to play near perfect to know hes a good character, in fact you could play like **** and still know hes a good character.

Mike H's statement wasn't about knowing if marth is a good character or not. He said: To realize his potential he needs to be played near perfect. And when he says to realize his potential, he means, achieve it, Which I agree with. In fact, your argument had nothing to do with what Mike was getting at, and his recovery actually isn't that bad at all, especially when you play near perfect

 

[Alphicans]

His recovery IS bad no matter what. Perfect play assumes your opponent plays perfectly as well, and it's not hard to get the ledge before he upB's.

 

[Vitality]

You don't need to play near perfect to realize the potential Marth has. I could play Marth for a day and realize that "holy **** this character is a beast." Marth is just an all around good charcater will very few flaws. One of them might be his recovery, which is mediocre at best. Other than his recovery, he has basically no flaws. He just requires A LOT of spacing and patience. Edge gurading is huge as well (second best edge guarding in the game). Point i'm getting at is that you don't have to play near perfect to know hes a good character, in fact you could play like **** and still know hes a good character.

You just haven't played better people.

 

[ChaosDrifter]

marth's recovery is easily gimpable, but it's not super terrible

but the point i was trying to get at is that marth has a lot more potential than he's being played at currently in brawl's metagame

 

[Diminisht]

If this were facebook, I would "like" Mike's last comment. lol

As for his recovery, I guess ya if we assume the opponent is also playing perfect, it isn't too great. I just think that you have a lot of chances to return because you can quite easily change the timing of your return by swordancing to slow your fall, which will let you get past the invincibility frames from edge grabbing. That was my reasoning, but your right, if MK for example plays near perfect, Marth is pretty gimped lol

 

[brningpyre]

Pfft, change the matchup? Wario has plenty of positive matchups against people that can infinite/0->death him off a grab.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

all marth needs is sideb

 

[Kuraudo]

lol, your funny.

Brawl, Kyle. NOT BlazBlue. lmao /gets wrecked s'more

--

/just beat Metal Gear Solid 2. woot. next up, 3 and then 4.

 

[ChaosDrifter]

all marth needs is sideb

and downb for killing

 

[T-block]

Umm...every character needs to play near perfect to realize his/her full potential. It's basically by definition lol. People say "this character has more potential than the level they're being played at now", but honestly, what does that actually mean?

A big thing is a character's "options". It's directly correlated to a character's "potential" in some sense of the word. Once you get a character who doesn't have glaring attributes that make them suck, what makes them good is the presence of options. That's why you hear things like "Sheik has a lot of potential" - because she's a character that's not particularly strong, but has options, which allow player skill to shine through. It's also why people say things like "Snake sucks" - because he actually doesn't have many options at all... it's just he hits so hard and survives for so long that he can ACTUALLY MAKE UP FOR THAT.

Spoiler

In all seriousness, that's what annoys me about this character: he SHOULD suck, but he doesn't - that's horrible character design.

To be honest, this talk about perfect play in conjunction with metagame potential is silly. If you wanna talk perfect play, fine; but realize that you are entering a completely foreign, irrelevant metagame. I think it was proven that played 100% perfectly, Pit becomes unbeatable and every other character is nonviable. Marth has options, but the existance of options is only relevant if both you and your opponent can make mistakes.

 

[ChaosDrifter]

Umm...every character needs to play near perfect to realize his/her full potential. It's basically by definition lol. People say "this character has more potential than the level they're being played at now", but honestly, what does that actually mean?

it means that Marth could be placing much higher in the next year or so after his metagame develops more, and more talented players start using him. He has the ability to become much better while characters like snake or falco for example really don't have any more growth potential.

fox is another character who will likely be placing much higher in tournaments in the next while as a comparison.

btw, this is all imo/what i believe

 

[brningpyre]

It's also why people say things like "Snake sucks" - because he actually doesn't have many options at all... it's just he hits so hard and survives for so long that he can ACTUALLY MAKE UP FOR THAT.

Spoiler

In all seriousness, that's what annoys me about this character: he SHOULD suck, but he doesn't - that's horrible character design.

Actually, I think Snake has a lot of different options in most situations, but he has to prepare them ahead of time. And he can do a good job controlling the situations that come up to prevent himself from ending up a bad situation.

Snake's options are more unconventional than bad. If you try to play Snake the same way you play other characters (like MK, Marth, etc...) you get screwed.

 

[T-block]

At any given instant of time, Snake's actions are predictable. That by definition means he has limited options, no? It's just that those two things that he is likely to do will probably **** you whether you know they're coming or not.

 

[Alphicans]

Actually, I think Snake has a lot of different options in most situations, but he has to prepare them ahead of time. And he can do a good job controlling the situations that come up to prevent himself from ending up a bad situation.

Snake's options are more unconventional than bad. If you try to play Snake the same way you play other characters (like MK, Marth, etc...) you get screwed.

Prepare them ahead of time? Against a good character that has a lot of good options, this seems pretty much impossible.

 

[ChaosDrifter]

summary: snake is a lame character that doesn't fit well in smash

 

[Kuraudo]

Prepare them ahead of time? Against a good character that has a lot of good options, this seems pretty much impossible.

Wrong. This is what proper implementation of C4/Mines/Grenades/Mortars is for.

To succeed with Snake, you have to PLAY like Snake, if that makes any sense at all. Even good characters fall victim to proper strategizing on the player's part. Play EXTREMELY smart with Snake. Just like playing extremely smart with Marth.

That's the key to winning (that can be said about any character really), it just so happens that Snake falls in line with how he should be in character too. All of those set up kills with the tools at Snake's disposal, he's got many options. His one glaring flaw is getting back on the ground against characters who are great at punishing.

Use everything at your disposal on the battlefield. Good Snakes need to use just about everything they've got to win.

 

[lilseph]

His recovery IS bad no matter what. Perfect play assumes your opponent plays perfectly as well, and it's not hard to get the ledge before he upB's.

This is what was going though my head when "perfect play" was brought up.

You just haven't played better people.

Sorry, i live in Alberta.

Brawl, Kyle. NOT BlazBlue. lmao /gets wrecked s'more

I know, 1v1 me brawl.

It's also why people say things like "Snake sucks" - because he actually doesn't have many options at all... it's just he hits so hard and survives for so long that he can ACTUALLY MAKE UP FOR THAT.

Spoiler

In all seriousness, that's what annoys me about this character: he SHOULD suck, but he doesn't - that's horrible character design.

This 1000x

 

[Kuraudo]

$10 MM.

Best of 5. Sonic vs. Meta Knight.

 

[lilseph]

lol k.

btw what happened to ike?

 

[T-block]

Brandon, you missed the point. You're mixing up having options with limiting your opponent's options. Yes, Snake can limit his opponent's options probably better than any other character in the game.

But look at Diddy's options OoS with a banana in hand. Look at Wario's options in the air. When does Snake have a situation where the opponent is thinking "man, he could do anything"? When he's at long range he's probably going to pull a grenade, etc. etc. Being "EXTREMELY smart", as you say, doesn't really suddenly open up options. It means you make good use of the few that you have.

 

[Kuraudo]

lol k.

btw what happened to ike?

He's a secondary.

--

@ Mike

And if you make good use of the few that you have, aren't those good options against your opponent? Snake is still a dominant/strong character for it. Those grenades are the one thing that make taking on Snake a complete and total pain. Meta Knight? Tornado is tougher to use. Anyone attacking Snake while he's got a grenade in his proximity? Problems OoS for some. Only a select few aren't scared of grenades/have attacks that go around those things.

Snake has both options AND the ability to limit the opponent's options. But it doesn't come without glaring flaws.

I don't think I've missed any point here. That's just my perspective.

 

[ChaosDrifter]

sonic's way cooler than ike newayz

p.s. post 6666 :D

 

[Kuraudo]

Agreed. Sonic is totally awesome in every possible way. Ike's just so satisfying to kill with though. He HURTS.

 

[lilseph]

Really, I think that snake is a very limited character and has almost hit the ceiling as far as metagame is concerned. When you break down Snake in the simplest form, he is just a character that survives to stupid %'s and hit VERY HARD. The metagame is still progressing and people will find that Snake is not the second best in the game, maybe not even top 5 (who knows at this point). It's as Mike said, he has limited options compared to his other top/high tier friends, and has almost none to begin with. I almost find it funny when i see the Snake boards frantically trying to find new strats and techs to better their game.

Also i find it kind of funny how Ally suddenly shows up and wins tournies, then after about a year people learn how to fight against Snake and all of his tricky-ness. Ally all of a sudden doesn't do so good anymore and STILL to this day has not bounced back (like ADHD just did), ever since people have figued Snake out.

 

[T-block]

Why do you keep running off on tangents ._.

 

[lilseph]

Why do you keep running off on tangents ._.

Makes me feel good :D

 

[Kuraudo]

feels good man

 

[T-block]

I was talking to Brandon, Kyle =P

Yes Brandon, having good but limited options means Snake does fine - especially at lower-levels of play. But the point has never been "Snake is not a good character" -_-

The point is, Snake's potential to advance past his current level is probably not very high.

 

[Alphicans]

Marth is the future of brawl. Better pick him up....

 

[Kuraudo]

I was talking to Brandon, Kyle =P

Yes Brandon, having good but limited options means Snake does fine - especially at lower-levels of play. But the point has never been "Snake is not a good character" -_-

The point is, Snake's potential to advance past his current level is probably not very high.

I didn't think you were saying that. Being in top tier, high tier, even the viable mid-tier are good characters. But I just don't see Snake being dropped below the top 5. That's all.

Though not very high, I wouldn't be so certain to slam all the nails on Snake's coffin as far as his progression in the metagame is concerned. Brawl's still a young game. We saw the platform cancelling goodness with Marth, and the list goes on and on. If nothing gets discovered, so be it. But there's a chance that Snake's resources haven't been completely burnt either.

I think Snake does just fine at higher levels of play as well. You just need some good counterpicks to fend off the pains in the neck like Olimar or whatever.

 

[Alphicans]

Eh, you're kinda right, but most of the new things in brawl that are being discovered revolve around buffering, and usually with grabs. BDACUS is like the latest new useful thing discovered, and that only really helps falco (bdacus out of grab), but it can help most characters out too. Platform cancelling has been known for awhile and it applies to EVERYONE not just marth. I guess just recently someone decided to post a thread on how to do it, and why it works lol.

I don't think snake is gonna gain anything from buffering, because his moves are pretty slow, and his grabs have too much knockback, except for dthrow, but that doesn't have any buffer potential to it. I am not even sure how well bdacus works with snake, but if it works as well as falco's I could see some ledge get up shenanigans, or maybe even fthrow to bdacus? That's probably WAYYYY too slow, and I feel dumb for saying that lol.

 

[lilseph]

I was talking to Brandon, Kyle =P

Yes Brandon, having good but limited options means Snake does fine - especially at lower-levels of play. But the point has never been "Snake is not a good character" -_-

The point is, Snake's potential to advance past his current level is probably not very high.

Oh lol my bad

Also the last part of your statement is what i was saying about Snake hitting the ceiling as far as meta-game goes. He is not going to get much better than what he is right now and as luke said we are finding new tactics in the game and Snake is either not benefiting from them, or the tactic is just straight up not very useful for Snake.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

snake is pretty easy to exploit, but to keep exploiting him consistently is a hard thing to keep up.

 

[Kuraudo]

I think it works like this.

Snake is just so powerful and the options he DOES have are really good. By the same token, he's exploitable too like Dan said.

But in a high level match though, it stems down to this.

Can you exploit him enough times fast enough to win? Or will he use his power and options quicker? It's a trade off in a lot of cases.

 

[Diminisht]

Prepare them ahead of time? Against a good character that has a lot of good options, this seems pretty much impossible.

Wrong.

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LOL this made me laugh so hard.

After reading these last few pages, i got rather irritated by listening to illogical/uneducated arguments. So I have to comment and say one thing:

@ Luke and Maiko, Thank you for proving why you guys are in the BBR, and giving some sort of real/useful insite into this argument. Without you two it would have been a bunch of nonsense fanboyism.

 

[Kuraudo]

... Are you saying that what I'm saying is nonsensical fanboyism? D:

Like, sorry if my perspective differs, but I really was speaking with a non-fanboy opinion.