Any and all further comment is welcome, but this initial post was created with the help of @
Raziek
.
Reference Vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcmQmzpvMo0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu_4NC0g15w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_IwYnPrdMs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ViasiJOQk
Robin vs. Shulk is a weird matchup. Both are generally considered ‘zoning’ characters. Robin zones with the Levin Sword and a wide array of exceptional projectiles. Shulk does so more aggressively with the sheer length of his sword, and his mobility options through his Speed and Jump stances. When the two clash, it becomes largely about ‘who is where’ and ‘who swings first’. Robin is at advantage MOST of the time in this matchup, as Shulk has a very specific zone he wants to reach where he’s at maximum effectiveness, where Robin is happy to be pretty much anywhere BUT that zone. Shulk can also struggle to find consistent kills, limiting his ability to keep Robin from getting a lead and further extending it thanks to her zoning. Shulk, conversely, makes his money on finding immense profit in the small advantages. His explosive nature can turn extreme deficits back into real matches with a few correct reads in Buster or Smash.
Neutral
Shulk Side
There is a very small zone and you want to occupy it. This zone lies outside Robin’s aerial threat range and inside Shulk’s. Any farther back is too far and Robin can safely throw projectiles at you to make it difficult to get to this zone. Any closer and you will find that the Levin Sword does not appreciate your presence. Being outsped and outsafetied in comparison to Robin is not good for Shulk. Your plan in neutral is to find a way into this effective zone. You want to live in it, but it is hard to find your way there. To that end, you have a couple of things you can use, but first, there are some ground rules.
Past that, there’s the information on which MArts to use. Start the match with Speed or Jump, typically. Speed increases the range from which you can punish. Jump gives you the ability to better traverse her Arcfire traps. Do not use Buster in neutral unless you are desperate for a comeback or you are at a high enough percent that taking more percent hardly matters to you. Robin can string together multiple moves and trap your landing fairly easily, so it usually isn’t worth doing.
Robin Side
As the ‘Shulk side’ assessment would suggest, Robin wants to be everywhere Shulk doesn’t. In this case, you want to be either close enough to swing with the Levin sword (or your dominant jab, if grounded), or far enough to safely charge a Thunder spell or position yourself to throw out Arcfire.
When at ‘long-range’, Robin holds a clear advantage. Shulk has no projectiles, so if he insists on STAYING at long-range, he’ll eventually get hit by something. He can only really choose to stay at this range if he’s trying for a time-out (and is already ahead), or you’re on a transitioning stage and he’s waiting for a more favorable position, or simply waiting for you to break one of your tomes. (Which you can then throw at him and start zoning with the other one. Ha!)
‘Mid range’ is where Shulk has closed the gap enough to swing with Fair, Nair, or Bair from outside of Robin’s range. If he’s in Speed or Jump, this range is larger, and also notably increases the distance from which he can threaten to grab you. This situation is one Robin wants to exit immediately, usually by getting closer. Retreating is fine if space permits it, but recklessly giving up stage control will see you end up on the ledge and in ‘Shulk time’.
From a frame data perspective, Robin wins the aerial fight pretty much outright.
(Robin) vs. (Shulk)
Nair: 9 vs. 13
Fair: 12 vs. 14
Bair: 9 vs. 18
Uair: 10 vs. (Functionally irrelevant)
Shulk competes in the air battle by abusing his range advantage. He does so by starting Nair from a safe distance and floating inwards, or using his Fair and Dair pre-emptively in a manner that maximizes its range. Thanks to the buffs he received in 1.04, Fair has less landing lag and is safer as a zoning tool. It is still possible, however, to close the gap with a well-timed shield and punish Shulk’s landing, so he cannot carelessly float it out.
Shulk’s Bair can be used due to its insane range, but he telegraphs using it, and he must do so from a range that is almost considered ‘long range’. If he’s doing it, unless you’re trying to out-disjoint it (you won’t), you shouldn’t have trouble closing the distance or retreating to shoot projectiles at him.
Once you’re in ‘close range’, your goal is to harass Shulk with LSFair, Nair, and LSUair. If you can get close enough, the Jab/Grab mixup. Most of the damage you’ll be getting is going to be Fair strings, Arcfire follow-ups, juggles, grabs, or tech-chases off of Nair knock-downs. Bair is reserved largely as a punish tool against Shulk due to its low range. However, it CAN hit him standing, which is extremely important.
It’s also extremely important to realize the potency of LSUair as a neutral tool. Properly auto-canceled, it’s difficult for Shulk to punish, and it prevents him from jumping out of sticky situations. He’s very floaty and LSUair can be expected to start getting kills at around 130 on the ground, and as early as 105 if you catch him high in the air. (Excluding MArts modifiers and rage effect. Results may vary. Some restrictions may apply.)
When it comes to the grounded battle, Shulk is not threatening on the ground unless he’s close enough to grab you. His Jab is 5 frames (slower than our 4 frame jab) and is extremely punishable on block. All his tilts are either relatively laggy, or not adequate for ground combat. His F-tilt is relatively easily punished if blocked (unless in Buster), D-tilt can be freely rolled into, and U-tilt, though excellent at stuffing aerial approaches, is not a button he should use if you’re both grounded, as it likely just won’t hit you.
His Smashes seem threatening at first, but are actually extremely easy to deal with as long as you don’t have a ton of bad roll/spot-dodge habits. F-Smash is unsafe if shielded outside of buster stance. If he’s in Buster, the push-back becomes too much to reliably punish if it was well-spaced. D-Smash can simply be shielded or jumped out of, and jumping out earns you a free Nosferatu or LSUAir/LSBair on his recovery time. U-Smash is a bit safer, but lacks the hitbox needed to threaten Robin in a grounded fight, leaving it relegated to hard reads on Shulk’s part.
Dealing with MArts
Buster/Smash
Buster and Smash can be treated in much the same manner. If Shulk is in Buster, you focus on the safe stuff. Well-placed Arcfires, retreated aerials, spend a lot of time in your shield. Buster means Shulk gets a bigger pay-off for hitting you, and it makes his attacks a little bit safer on shield. Your goal is to make sure he regrets activating it by getting easy damage through safe confirms, and finding your way out of the juggle if he manages to find a grab or push you to the ledge. Note: Be wary of shield damage on his Smash attacks. They CAN break your shield.
If Shulk is in Smash mode, things get a lot more volatile. He’s basically only going to enter Smash because he’s trying to kill you. Knowing that, the list of things that are dangerous changes, to a degree! Nair and Jab become less threatening. Fair/Bair, his grabs and his smashes get a lot MORE threatening.
Most of the time if Shulk goes into Smash, I just straight up leave. Don’t take risks. It’s not worth trying to fight him if you can die from a stray hit, but he won’t die himself. Wait it out. However, you will almost certainly EVENTUALLY have to fight him. (Due to lack of space to retreat to) Once again, stick to low-risk options and just keep him away from you until it wears out. B-throw will send him quite far if you can find a grab, as will any aerial or Fire Jab. Be wary of how early he can kill you OFFSTAGE in Smash stance. Also: BE WARY OF VISION, ESPECIALLY if he is running Power Vision. It will kill you HILARIOUSLY early.
Shield
This one is easy. Just don’t fight him. Every single problem Shulk has approaching from the ‘long-range’ situation becomes exacerbated if he enters Shield. Toss Arcfire and Elthunder and laugh at him. This stance should never really be threatening unless you’re being careless and letting him hit you or get too close. Be aware, that he’ll also be surviving an obnoxiously long time in this stance. Save your kill moves for after it wears off. If ever you find yourself boxed in in the corner, know that he still can’t move very fast, as this is where he’ll struggle to keep you. If you CAN get past him, you have the entire stage available to retreat to.
Speed
Speed sees Shulk trade Jump height and damage for immensely increased ground speed and air speed. This MArt is one of the harder ones to deal with, as this makes it much easier for him to close the distance and find his way into that ‘advantage time’ by grabbing you. The decrease in jump height means Arcfire controls more effective space, so be sure to put it in his way. Just be wary of him anticipating it and jumping over with Fair. Otherwise, your best bet is to stay patient and rely on the safety of retreating Nair/Jab to prevent him from freely dashing in on you.
Jump
This MArt’s effectiveness is extremely stage-dependant. It lets him navigate Arcfire much more easily, but the reduced Dash speed means he’s basically forced to commit to an aerial approach, which means he has to COMMIT. If there’s platforms in the way, like on Battlefield, this Art’s effectiveness is greatly reduced since those block him from jumping in with an aerial at some ranges. Speed is more likely to be the one you’re dealing with most of the time due to its ability to let him threaten to grab you. His aerial approaches become more threatening, so take care not to simply let him grab you, out of fear. If Shulk has to come down for a high position, chances are his goal is to Nair the back of your shield so he can get down safely. If he does so, the safest course of action is simply to roll forward (and away from where he is landing).
Advantage Time
Shulk Side
Shulk’s redeeming factor in what would otherwise be a poor match-up is his ability to gather insane profit from a small advantage.
When he reaches the sweet spot we talked about earlier, then Fair, Nair, and tilts become terrifying for Robin and any hit can lead into more or a potential grab. Once you’ve found a hit, begin looking to grab Robin or find a way to open her up to aerial strings. Any time you land a Nair and a lot of Fairs, you will find yourself with frame advantage on the ground near to Robin. Her options are very limited there. Her likely course is to either jump, roll, or jab. Jab is good. Frame 4, scary move. However, the first two hits can be shield grabbed (from close range), while the fire ender can be punished with shield drop FSmash for Christ’s sake. Do not spot dodge that move though (as I can attest as you see me do it repeatedly in the above videos since I haven’t shaken the muscle memory). If she jumps, she likely will not make it high enough to get out of a grab and even if she could, Utilt or Fair tend to light that up. Probably her best option is to roll, in which case, you want to chase the roll down. Either stand your ground and punish with DSmash or grab if she rolls through you or chase it down with grab, dash attack, or USmash if she rolls away.
Now, the tricky part is that once you’ve gotten to your sweetspot and then found the hit, your next follow-up is likely to put Robin outside of your sweetspot again. She is likely above and in front of you, as that is the safest place for her to be. This is fine with you. Due to her powerful aerials and favorable airspeed, you want to trap her landing more so than go up after her. Catch her with a grab on landing or a tilt, shield if you think she’s going to throw an aerial (do not let her hit you with her command grab in this scenario). Experiment. The options here are just so terribly plentiful I cannot possibly cover them all. If you’re having trouble with trapping landings, post on the boards and we’ll see what we can do about it. Note: When under Robin in such a position, that’s a good time to switch to Buster or Smash (percent depending) or even Jump so that you can go deep for an edgeguard if you get them off stage. She can’t do much to you in this scenario until the you reset to neutral. One last thing on this scenario though, don’t use UAir. It’s a hell of a hard read for an early kill, but it’s just too easy to be avoided and that lag can easily tip the scales and give Robin an opening. I’m not really feeling that.
The final advantageous position to discuss is the edge guard. When Robin is offstage, she’s hell on Earth to kill. Her sword means that committing to a Fair must be done early lest you recieve a shocking reprimand from Robin’s own Fair. However, if you do throw that Fair, she can likely air dodge on reaction and you will have to jump back to safety lest you find yourself in the absolute perfect location for an Elwind spike. If Robin is air-dodging prematurely, this can be punished with a down air as long as you have good timing and have not committed to a different aerial before she airdodged. However, NOT swinging still leave you vulnerable to her swinging back. If you can get behind her (and some wonky postitions between her and the stage), Bair can be effective, but it’s hard. Finding a Fair or Bair offstage can easily mean you get a stock, but don’t go too hard and get killed yourself because without your double jump, you’re toast. Your real advantage comes from trapping her at the ledge. Being near the ledge when Robin has to get back on stage means you are instantly in your perfect place AND Robin’s options are limited. Simply standing outside of Robin’s ledge attack range is threatening. You fought for all this space, do not give it up freely.
Robin Side
Okay, so basically every time you hit Shulk with ANYTHING you enter ‘advantage time’. This is a result of Robin’s ability to string together numerous aerials, and her ability to trap Shulk’s landing options exceptionally easily. Shulk’s aerials are SLOW. Because of this, when you hit him and he’s forced to leave the ground, he almost never gets to swing BACK at you. He’s forced to take the hit and try to find a way out of the situation. He’s extremely floaty, which means you DESTROY him if he ends up above you. LSUair bullies essentially every single option he has except Vision. That’s REALLY BAD for him. Like Little Mac, he’s basically forced to commit to a counter-option in order to get down safely. So every time you get in range to swing Uair at him, he has to pick one of the following options:
#3 might as well not even be a real option, we out disjoint Dair SUPER hard. Vision is a strong option that can turn the tables if it connects, but not only can you space Uair such that the vision will trigger but not HIT you, you can also simply wait, bait it out, and punish him afterwards. If Shulk air-dodges, Uair -> Bair is a frametrap if your spacing is correct, and if he air-dodges into the ground it’s a free grab, putting you at advantage time once more.
When it comes to off-stage, most of what you’re going to be doing is tacking on additional damage with Fair/Elwind, going for the Nair gimp, or going for a ledge trump trap with Bair/Uair. Elwind spikes are not particularly viable in this match-up due to how Air Slash clanks with Elwind, and the fact that you need to get extremely close to him to even attempt it.
If you’re on-stage and he’s on the ledge, you’re mostly just going to want to wait and react. Once again, his laggy aerials means he has to pick a vulnerable defensive option that you can follow up on. D-Smash catches him if he tries to simply hang there or do the quick-stand or ledgeroll, while SHUair covers ledge-jump. If you prefer a safer distance, you can throw Arcfire directly onto the ledge to force him to take action to avoid it and punish his defensive choice then.
Disadvantage
Shulk Side
You start the game at a disadvantaged situation. You spend 70% of the game at a disadvantage. Your strength in the match-up is what you do with the 30% you aren’t at disadvantage. But I digress, here’s a look at what you can do to mitigate the disadvantaged situations.
a.) Arcfire
The big one. Arcfire is free pressure and there’s little you can do to directly punish the correct use of this move. As mentioned before, if Robin uses this at a poor time, you can roll through it and get close enough to punish.Equally poor for her is if she uses it in a scenario where you can go over it and Fair her. Against a good player, those times are few and far between. For the most part, a victory over Arcfire is one in which you don’t get hit and Robin backs up closer to the ledge. Change your mindset because that scenario is great and you can’t go thinking it isn’t. You have to weave around Arcfire. If it falls short of reaching you, wait for it to end and then move forward either on the ground or with a short hop, being wary of Robin’s ability to move forward and possibly circumvent your sweetspot by closing the gap. If it lands behind you because you spot dodged or rolled, look out for Robin. Nair, Fair, Dash Attack, and Dash Grab are all very threatening and if she is in range for those, you need to find your opportunity to shorthop a retreating Fair or Nair to gain your space as that means you are close to Robin. If she is still in lag, feel free to light her up with a grab, tilt, or dash attack. If Arcfire hits your shield, figure out how deep you are into it. Robin is coming to throw something safe at your shield for even more pressure and to land her right in her own sweetspot. If you’re deep into Arcfire, you have to shield the entire move and hold that mix-up. If you aren’t, you can roll out of the later hits after it ignites. Time will get you used to it. One final trick is that while in Speed (or any nonshield form if the situation lines up sometimes) Dash Forward -> Shielding will oftentimes ignite Arcfire, but your momentum will carry you close enough to Robin (and out of the Arcfire) so you can shieldgrab her.
In the worst-case scenario, you get hit by Arcfire. DI away from the point where it ignited. Sometimes it ignites HIGH and you can DI out of the later hits before Robin can close the gap to claim her free follow-up. But if you DO not get out, be aware of the situation and stay ready to switch your DI for the incoming Uair/Fair.
She only has 6 uses of Arcfire and each use of Jab3 takes one of those. I’m not necessarily saying count the uses (but you should definitely count the uses), but when that red book breaks, you have a great time to find an advantaged situation.
b.) Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder/Thoron
Step one is to ascertain which Thunder tome you are dealing with by the charge time as that will determine how scared you should be, its travel time, and how long she has to charge before reaching the next level. For a general rule, you can deal with each level in the same way although they have slightly different traits. Thunder is a nuisance, but that’s all. Don’t really worry about it. Elthunder will disrupt you a lot if you’re hit as it has real knockback. Try to avoid it, it’s also very simple to avoid, but you can also clank or counter it. Arcthunder is a *****. She’ll abuse you and tell you to like it. If you’re hit, go ahead and start preparing your DI. If you shield it, HOLD THAT BUTTON!!! Unlike Arcfire, you cannot roll out of Arcthunder. Thoron is also a rude customer, but there’s not much to say. Hold shield until it’s over if you must, but preferably don’t ever get hit with it by jumping over it. If Thoron is charged, you should super not be using those rolls that you probably shouldn’t be using anyway. Landing is also a pain as air dodging a perceived aerial, can oftentimes just lead you to getting a face full of lightning.
We’ll cover Elwind in the recovery section, but let me just point out that almost every scenario that occurs with it offstage, Robin can use when above you onstage and if it hits, she will find purchase and you will find yourself back in a disadvantaged state.
First, this is the one place that rolling is even somewhat acceptable. Roll back, never forward (that gets you downsmashed), but if you see an opportunity to roll out of Robin’s zone, then do so.
Second, if Robin throws rising Fair, Nair, or Uair out of a shorthop, THERE IS A FRAME 4 JAB COMING IF SHE LANDS. For those of you who don’t speak capslock, that means that she will hit you if you try to retaliate with any of your grounded options. This is your time to drop your shield and short hop a Fair. Also note that, depending on the spacing, you may can get out of this pressure by using UpB out of shield either before the Fair/Nair/Uair comes out or after it hits your shield. That move is not to be underestimated.
Third, her jab is also very good. If not spaced perfectly, you can shieldgrab the first or second jabs, but the fire jab is VERY punishable (shield drop FSmash punishable). As long as you’re wary of the extended hitbox on the final hit, the wind jab is also fairly punishable after shielding it. If it is well spaced, you kind of have to wait for Robin to stop jabbing, but you don’t know if it will be after jab 1, 2, or 3. It can be reacted to, however, so play it and you’ll get a feel for it. Also, a word to the wise, don’t spot dodge this jab.
And finally, Arcfire. Wait, you thought this move was only good at range? You’re underestimating how stupid it is. At any point from just outside your shield grab range, Robin may opt to use Arcfire. If it hits your shield at this range, you’re in for a bad time. If she called you out, it’ll catch your roll and lead into a Fair or Uair. If it hits you while close, you’ll get one of those or an Upsmash. You beat it by timing a spot dodge or rolling through her, same as always.
Also, a word on Dair. This move is not a GOOD choice while above Robin. BUT it CAN force Robin to change the timing on her Uair. Throw it out once in a while to keep her honest and it may allow you to air-dodge through and avoid the grab waiting to grab your landing in the future.
NOTE: Charging Backslash can definitely help you find the ground, although whether you’ll be hit for it or not is up in the air.
Getting off the ledge can be a pain, as all of your options are fairly slow. Ledge-drop double jump fair, ledge-hopping over Robin, quick-stand, ledgeroll and ledge attack all have their own associated risks, so getting back is tricky, much like getting down. If she tries to Arcfire the ledge, make sure you go low enough, but don’t be afraid to simply let go of the ledge and up-B to re-grab it. Similarly, if you’re ledge-ejected, DON’T DOUBLE JUMP unless you fancy a mouth full of steel. Uair/Bair both trap your double jump very well, but since Up-B eats Elwind blades, you can simply drift down and re-grab the ledge without much threat.
Robin Side
Disadvantage time in this match-up is when Shulk grabs you, gets you off-stage, or gets you to the ledge. Robin struggles at fighting those directly below her (since Dair is buns), so you’re basically trying to ‘get away’ and get back to neutral any time that happens.
If Shulk lands a grab and wants follow-ups, he’s going for either U-Throw or F-throw. U-Throw puts you above him, F-throw pushes you towards the ledge. U-throw U-tilt is a nasty trap. You’re forced to either Air-dodge or jump away from it. Air-dodging can get you re-grabbed easily, so I usually opt simply to jump out of this situation due to Shulk’s difficulty chasing it. At that point he’s basically hoping to pressure you towards the ledge by putting Nair/Fair in your way, or attempting to trap your landing with U-tilt.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO LAND INTO SHULK. Just don’t do it. You’re going to get hit by U-tilt, grabbed, or worse, hit by one of his Smashes. Just let him have his space. He earned it fair and square. Don’t make things worse by letting him hit you again.
Off-stage Shulk really only has two tools that threaten you. Fair and Bair. Most of the time, you’re going to deal with Fair, since Bair is obvious (he has to jump out facing backwards) and slow. If you have a good enough reaction time, Fair is extremely easy to deal with. It’s 14f start-up, which is completely reactable given the constraints placed on the situation. Our Fair is 12 frames, which means if we get it out at the right time and range, it can stuff his. That means that for best results, Shulk has to swing BEFORE he’s close enough for us to swing, so it’s very easy to predict when he’s going to go for it and simply air-dodge it. You should really only get hit by it if you’re in a position where you CAN’T really air-dodge it. (You’ve gone too low, air-dodging would leave you too low, etc.) OR he’s in Jump and you just DIDN’T REALIZE HE COULD JUMP THAT HIGH.
Robin is floaty enough that you can basically just tumble back towards the stage, save your double jump, and react to what he commits to edge-guarding you with. If he tries to cover the low option, jump, Elwind, you’re back on stage, goodjob. If going high is less of an option, that’s when it gets a bit dicier, since you have to either hit him with Fair, or weave around the Fair/Dair/Bair mix-up. Not impossible, but less trivial.
Raziek
.Reference Vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcmQmzpvMo0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu_4NC0g15w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_IwYnPrdMs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ViasiJOQk
Robin vs. Shulk
Ratio: +1 Robin
Overview
Ratio: +1 Robin
Overview
Robin vs. Shulk is a weird matchup. Both are generally considered ‘zoning’ characters. Robin zones with the Levin Sword and a wide array of exceptional projectiles. Shulk does so more aggressively with the sheer length of his sword, and his mobility options through his Speed and Jump stances. When the two clash, it becomes largely about ‘who is where’ and ‘who swings first’. Robin is at advantage MOST of the time in this matchup, as Shulk has a very specific zone he wants to reach where he’s at maximum effectiveness, where Robin is happy to be pretty much anywhere BUT that zone. Shulk can also struggle to find consistent kills, limiting his ability to keep Robin from getting a lead and further extending it thanks to her zoning. Shulk, conversely, makes his money on finding immense profit in the small advantages. His explosive nature can turn extreme deficits back into real matches with a few correct reads in Buster or Smash.
Neutral
Shulk Side
There is a very small zone and you want to occupy it. This zone lies outside Robin’s aerial threat range and inside Shulk’s. Any farther back is too far and Robin can safely throw projectiles at you to make it difficult to get to this zone. Any closer and you will find that the Levin Sword does not appreciate your presence. Being outsped and outsafetied in comparison to Robin is not good for Shulk. Your plan in neutral is to find a way into this effective zone. You want to live in it, but it is hard to find your way there. To that end, you have a couple of things you can use, but first, there are some ground rules.
- Do Not Roll Forward.
- Stay Patient
- Not Getting A Hit Can Still Be A Win
Past that, there’s the information on which MArts to use. Start the match with Speed or Jump, typically. Speed increases the range from which you can punish. Jump gives you the ability to better traverse her Arcfire traps. Do not use Buster in neutral unless you are desperate for a comeback or you are at a high enough percent that taking more percent hardly matters to you. Robin can string together multiple moves and trap your landing fairly easily, so it usually isn’t worth doing.
Robin Side
As the ‘Shulk side’ assessment would suggest, Robin wants to be everywhere Shulk doesn’t. In this case, you want to be either close enough to swing with the Levin sword (or your dominant jab, if grounded), or far enough to safely charge a Thunder spell or position yourself to throw out Arcfire.
When at ‘long-range’, Robin holds a clear advantage. Shulk has no projectiles, so if he insists on STAYING at long-range, he’ll eventually get hit by something. He can only really choose to stay at this range if he’s trying for a time-out (and is already ahead), or you’re on a transitioning stage and he’s waiting for a more favorable position, or simply waiting for you to break one of your tomes. (Which you can then throw at him and start zoning with the other one. Ha!)
‘Mid range’ is where Shulk has closed the gap enough to swing with Fair, Nair, or Bair from outside of Robin’s range. If he’s in Speed or Jump, this range is larger, and also notably increases the distance from which he can threaten to grab you. This situation is one Robin wants to exit immediately, usually by getting closer. Retreating is fine if space permits it, but recklessly giving up stage control will see you end up on the ledge and in ‘Shulk time’.
From a frame data perspective, Robin wins the aerial fight pretty much outright.
(Robin) vs. (Shulk)
Nair: 9 vs. 13
Fair: 12 vs. 14
Bair: 9 vs. 18
Uair: 10 vs. (Functionally irrelevant)
Shulk competes in the air battle by abusing his range advantage. He does so by starting Nair from a safe distance and floating inwards, or using his Fair and Dair pre-emptively in a manner that maximizes its range. Thanks to the buffs he received in 1.04, Fair has less landing lag and is safer as a zoning tool. It is still possible, however, to close the gap with a well-timed shield and punish Shulk’s landing, so he cannot carelessly float it out.
Shulk’s Bair can be used due to its insane range, but he telegraphs using it, and he must do so from a range that is almost considered ‘long range’. If he’s doing it, unless you’re trying to out-disjoint it (you won’t), you shouldn’t have trouble closing the distance or retreating to shoot projectiles at him.
Once you’re in ‘close range’, your goal is to harass Shulk with LSFair, Nair, and LSUair. If you can get close enough, the Jab/Grab mixup. Most of the damage you’ll be getting is going to be Fair strings, Arcfire follow-ups, juggles, grabs, or tech-chases off of Nair knock-downs. Bair is reserved largely as a punish tool against Shulk due to its low range. However, it CAN hit him standing, which is extremely important.
It’s also extremely important to realize the potency of LSUair as a neutral tool. Properly auto-canceled, it’s difficult for Shulk to punish, and it prevents him from jumping out of sticky situations. He’s very floaty and LSUair can be expected to start getting kills at around 130 on the ground, and as early as 105 if you catch him high in the air. (Excluding MArts modifiers and rage effect. Results may vary. Some restrictions may apply.)
When it comes to the grounded battle, Shulk is not threatening on the ground unless he’s close enough to grab you. His Jab is 5 frames (slower than our 4 frame jab) and is extremely punishable on block. All his tilts are either relatively laggy, or not adequate for ground combat. His F-tilt is relatively easily punished if blocked (unless in Buster), D-tilt can be freely rolled into, and U-tilt, though excellent at stuffing aerial approaches, is not a button he should use if you’re both grounded, as it likely just won’t hit you.
His Smashes seem threatening at first, but are actually extremely easy to deal with as long as you don’t have a ton of bad roll/spot-dodge habits. F-Smash is unsafe if shielded outside of buster stance. If he’s in Buster, the push-back becomes too much to reliably punish if it was well-spaced. D-Smash can simply be shielded or jumped out of, and jumping out earns you a free Nosferatu or LSUAir/LSBair on his recovery time. U-Smash is a bit safer, but lacks the hitbox needed to threaten Robin in a grounded fight, leaving it relegated to hard reads on Shulk’s part.
Dealing with MArts
Buster/Smash
Buster and Smash can be treated in much the same manner. If Shulk is in Buster, you focus on the safe stuff. Well-placed Arcfires, retreated aerials, spend a lot of time in your shield. Buster means Shulk gets a bigger pay-off for hitting you, and it makes his attacks a little bit safer on shield. Your goal is to make sure he regrets activating it by getting easy damage through safe confirms, and finding your way out of the juggle if he manages to find a grab or push you to the ledge. Note: Be wary of shield damage on his Smash attacks. They CAN break your shield.
If Shulk is in Smash mode, things get a lot more volatile. He’s basically only going to enter Smash because he’s trying to kill you. Knowing that, the list of things that are dangerous changes, to a degree! Nair and Jab become less threatening. Fair/Bair, his grabs and his smashes get a lot MORE threatening.
Most of the time if Shulk goes into Smash, I just straight up leave. Don’t take risks. It’s not worth trying to fight him if you can die from a stray hit, but he won’t die himself. Wait it out. However, you will almost certainly EVENTUALLY have to fight him. (Due to lack of space to retreat to) Once again, stick to low-risk options and just keep him away from you until it wears out. B-throw will send him quite far if you can find a grab, as will any aerial or Fire Jab. Be wary of how early he can kill you OFFSTAGE in Smash stance. Also: BE WARY OF VISION, ESPECIALLY if he is running Power Vision. It will kill you HILARIOUSLY early.
Shield
This one is easy. Just don’t fight him. Every single problem Shulk has approaching from the ‘long-range’ situation becomes exacerbated if he enters Shield. Toss Arcfire and Elthunder and laugh at him. This stance should never really be threatening unless you’re being careless and letting him hit you or get too close. Be aware, that he’ll also be surviving an obnoxiously long time in this stance. Save your kill moves for after it wears off. If ever you find yourself boxed in in the corner, know that he still can’t move very fast, as this is where he’ll struggle to keep you. If you CAN get past him, you have the entire stage available to retreat to.
Speed
Speed sees Shulk trade Jump height and damage for immensely increased ground speed and air speed. This MArt is one of the harder ones to deal with, as this makes it much easier for him to close the distance and find his way into that ‘advantage time’ by grabbing you. The decrease in jump height means Arcfire controls more effective space, so be sure to put it in his way. Just be wary of him anticipating it and jumping over with Fair. Otherwise, your best bet is to stay patient and rely on the safety of retreating Nair/Jab to prevent him from freely dashing in on you.
Jump
This MArt’s effectiveness is extremely stage-dependant. It lets him navigate Arcfire much more easily, but the reduced Dash speed means he’s basically forced to commit to an aerial approach, which means he has to COMMIT. If there’s platforms in the way, like on Battlefield, this Art’s effectiveness is greatly reduced since those block him from jumping in with an aerial at some ranges. Speed is more likely to be the one you’re dealing with most of the time due to its ability to let him threaten to grab you. His aerial approaches become more threatening, so take care not to simply let him grab you, out of fear. If Shulk has to come down for a high position, chances are his goal is to Nair the back of your shield so he can get down safely. If he does so, the safest course of action is simply to roll forward (and away from where he is landing).
Advantage Time
Shulk Side
Shulk’s redeeming factor in what would otherwise be a poor match-up is his ability to gather insane profit from a small advantage.
When he reaches the sweet spot we talked about earlier, then Fair, Nair, and tilts become terrifying for Robin and any hit can lead into more or a potential grab. Once you’ve found a hit, begin looking to grab Robin or find a way to open her up to aerial strings. Any time you land a Nair and a lot of Fairs, you will find yourself with frame advantage on the ground near to Robin. Her options are very limited there. Her likely course is to either jump, roll, or jab. Jab is good. Frame 4, scary move. However, the first two hits can be shield grabbed (from close range), while the fire ender can be punished with shield drop FSmash for Christ’s sake. Do not spot dodge that move though (as I can attest as you see me do it repeatedly in the above videos since I haven’t shaken the muscle memory). If she jumps, she likely will not make it high enough to get out of a grab and even if she could, Utilt or Fair tend to light that up. Probably her best option is to roll, in which case, you want to chase the roll down. Either stand your ground and punish with DSmash or grab if she rolls through you or chase it down with grab, dash attack, or USmash if she rolls away.
Now, the tricky part is that once you’ve gotten to your sweetspot and then found the hit, your next follow-up is likely to put Robin outside of your sweetspot again. She is likely above and in front of you, as that is the safest place for her to be. This is fine with you. Due to her powerful aerials and favorable airspeed, you want to trap her landing more so than go up after her. Catch her with a grab on landing or a tilt, shield if you think she’s going to throw an aerial (do not let her hit you with her command grab in this scenario). Experiment. The options here are just so terribly plentiful I cannot possibly cover them all. If you’re having trouble with trapping landings, post on the boards and we’ll see what we can do about it. Note: When under Robin in such a position, that’s a good time to switch to Buster or Smash (percent depending) or even Jump so that you can go deep for an edgeguard if you get them off stage. She can’t do much to you in this scenario until the you reset to neutral. One last thing on this scenario though, don’t use UAir. It’s a hell of a hard read for an early kill, but it’s just too easy to be avoided and that lag can easily tip the scales and give Robin an opening. I’m not really feeling that.
The final advantageous position to discuss is the edge guard. When Robin is offstage, she’s hell on Earth to kill. Her sword means that committing to a Fair must be done early lest you recieve a shocking reprimand from Robin’s own Fair. However, if you do throw that Fair, she can likely air dodge on reaction and you will have to jump back to safety lest you find yourself in the absolute perfect location for an Elwind spike. If Robin is air-dodging prematurely, this can be punished with a down air as long as you have good timing and have not committed to a different aerial before she airdodged. However, NOT swinging still leave you vulnerable to her swinging back. If you can get behind her (and some wonky postitions between her and the stage), Bair can be effective, but it’s hard. Finding a Fair or Bair offstage can easily mean you get a stock, but don’t go too hard and get killed yourself because without your double jump, you’re toast. Your real advantage comes from trapping her at the ledge. Being near the ledge when Robin has to get back on stage means you are instantly in your perfect place AND Robin’s options are limited. Simply standing outside of Robin’s ledge attack range is threatening. You fought for all this space, do not give it up freely.
Robin Side
Okay, so basically every time you hit Shulk with ANYTHING you enter ‘advantage time’. This is a result of Robin’s ability to string together numerous aerials, and her ability to trap Shulk’s landing options exceptionally easily. Shulk’s aerials are SLOW. Because of this, when you hit him and he’s forced to leave the ground, he almost never gets to swing BACK at you. He’s forced to take the hit and try to find a way out of the situation. He’s extremely floaty, which means you DESTROY him if he ends up above you. LSUair bullies essentially every single option he has except Vision. That’s REALLY BAD for him. Like Little Mac, he’s basically forced to commit to a counter-option in order to get down safely. So every time you get in range to swing Uair at him, he has to pick one of the following options:
- Vision
- Air-dodge
- Dair
#3 might as well not even be a real option, we out disjoint Dair SUPER hard. Vision is a strong option that can turn the tables if it connects, but not only can you space Uair such that the vision will trigger but not HIT you, you can also simply wait, bait it out, and punish him afterwards. If Shulk air-dodges, Uair -> Bair is a frametrap if your spacing is correct, and if he air-dodges into the ground it’s a free grab, putting you at advantage time once more.
When it comes to off-stage, most of what you’re going to be doing is tacking on additional damage with Fair/Elwind, going for the Nair gimp, or going for a ledge trump trap with Bair/Uair. Elwind spikes are not particularly viable in this match-up due to how Air Slash clanks with Elwind, and the fact that you need to get extremely close to him to even attempt it.
If you’re on-stage and he’s on the ledge, you’re mostly just going to want to wait and react. Once again, his laggy aerials means he has to pick a vulnerable defensive option that you can follow up on. D-Smash catches him if he tries to simply hang there or do the quick-stand or ledgeroll, while SHUair covers ledge-jump. If you prefer a safer distance, you can throw Arcfire directly onto the ledge to force him to take action to avoid it and punish his defensive choice then.
Disadvantage
Shulk Side
You start the game at a disadvantaged situation. You spend 70% of the game at a disadvantage. Your strength in the match-up is what you do with the 30% you aren’t at disadvantage. But I digress, here’s a look at what you can do to mitigate the disadvantaged situations.
- At Range
a.) Arcfire
The big one. Arcfire is free pressure and there’s little you can do to directly punish the correct use of this move. As mentioned before, if Robin uses this at a poor time, you can roll through it and get close enough to punish.Equally poor for her is if she uses it in a scenario where you can go over it and Fair her. Against a good player, those times are few and far between. For the most part, a victory over Arcfire is one in which you don’t get hit and Robin backs up closer to the ledge. Change your mindset because that scenario is great and you can’t go thinking it isn’t. You have to weave around Arcfire. If it falls short of reaching you, wait for it to end and then move forward either on the ground or with a short hop, being wary of Robin’s ability to move forward and possibly circumvent your sweetspot by closing the gap. If it lands behind you because you spot dodged or rolled, look out for Robin. Nair, Fair, Dash Attack, and Dash Grab are all very threatening and if she is in range for those, you need to find your opportunity to shorthop a retreating Fair or Nair to gain your space as that means you are close to Robin. If she is still in lag, feel free to light her up with a grab, tilt, or dash attack. If Arcfire hits your shield, figure out how deep you are into it. Robin is coming to throw something safe at your shield for even more pressure and to land her right in her own sweetspot. If you’re deep into Arcfire, you have to shield the entire move and hold that mix-up. If you aren’t, you can roll out of the later hits after it ignites. Time will get you used to it. One final trick is that while in Speed (or any nonshield form if the situation lines up sometimes) Dash Forward -> Shielding will oftentimes ignite Arcfire, but your momentum will carry you close enough to Robin (and out of the Arcfire) so you can shieldgrab her.
In the worst-case scenario, you get hit by Arcfire. DI away from the point where it ignited. Sometimes it ignites HIGH and you can DI out of the later hits before Robin can close the gap to claim her free follow-up. But if you DO not get out, be aware of the situation and stay ready to switch your DI for the incoming Uair/Fair.
She only has 6 uses of Arcfire and each use of Jab3 takes one of those. I’m not necessarily saying count the uses (but you should definitely count the uses), but when that red book breaks, you have a great time to find an advantaged situation.
b.) Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder/Thoron
Step one is to ascertain which Thunder tome you are dealing with by the charge time as that will determine how scared you should be, its travel time, and how long she has to charge before reaching the next level. For a general rule, you can deal with each level in the same way although they have slightly different traits. Thunder is a nuisance, but that’s all. Don’t really worry about it. Elthunder will disrupt you a lot if you’re hit as it has real knockback. Try to avoid it, it’s also very simple to avoid, but you can also clank or counter it. Arcthunder is a *****. She’ll abuse you and tell you to like it. If you’re hit, go ahead and start preparing your DI. If you shield it, HOLD THAT BUTTON!!! Unlike Arcfire, you cannot roll out of Arcthunder. Thoron is also a rude customer, but there’s not much to say. Hold shield until it’s over if you must, but preferably don’t ever get hit with it by jumping over it. If Thoron is charged, you should super not be using those rolls that you probably shouldn’t be using anyway. Landing is also a pain as air dodging a perceived aerial, can oftentimes just lead you to getting a face full of lightning.
We’ll cover Elwind in the recovery section, but let me just point out that almost every scenario that occurs with it offstage, Robin can use when above you onstage and if it hits, she will find purchase and you will find yourself back in a disadvantaged state.
- Inside Robin’s Melee Range
First, this is the one place that rolling is even somewhat acceptable. Roll back, never forward (that gets you downsmashed), but if you see an opportunity to roll out of Robin’s zone, then do so.
Second, if Robin throws rising Fair, Nair, or Uair out of a shorthop, THERE IS A FRAME 4 JAB COMING IF SHE LANDS. For those of you who don’t speak capslock, that means that she will hit you if you try to retaliate with any of your grounded options. This is your time to drop your shield and short hop a Fair. Also note that, depending on the spacing, you may can get out of this pressure by using UpB out of shield either before the Fair/Nair/Uair comes out or after it hits your shield. That move is not to be underestimated.
Third, her jab is also very good. If not spaced perfectly, you can shieldgrab the first or second jabs, but the fire jab is VERY punishable (shield drop FSmash punishable). As long as you’re wary of the extended hitbox on the final hit, the wind jab is also fairly punishable after shielding it. If it is well spaced, you kind of have to wait for Robin to stop jabbing, but you don’t know if it will be after jab 1, 2, or 3. It can be reacted to, however, so play it and you’ll get a feel for it. Also, a word to the wise, don’t spot dodge this jab.
And finally, Arcfire. Wait, you thought this move was only good at range? You’re underestimating how stupid it is. At any point from just outside your shield grab range, Robin may opt to use Arcfire. If it hits your shield at this range, you’re in for a bad time. If she called you out, it’ll catch your roll and lead into a Fair or Uair. If it hits you while close, you’ll get one of those or an Upsmash. You beat it by timing a spot dodge or rolling through her, same as always.
- Above Robin
Also, a word on Dair. This move is not a GOOD choice while above Robin. BUT it CAN force Robin to change the timing on her Uair. Throw it out once in a while to keep her honest and it may allow you to air-dodge through and avoid the grab waiting to grab your landing in the future.
NOTE: Charging Backslash can definitely help you find the ground, although whether you’ll be hit for it or not is up in the air.
- Recovering
Getting off the ledge can be a pain, as all of your options are fairly slow. Ledge-drop double jump fair, ledge-hopping over Robin, quick-stand, ledgeroll and ledge attack all have their own associated risks, so getting back is tricky, much like getting down. If she tries to Arcfire the ledge, make sure you go low enough, but don’t be afraid to simply let go of the ledge and up-B to re-grab it. Similarly, if you’re ledge-ejected, DON’T DOUBLE JUMP unless you fancy a mouth full of steel. Uair/Bair both trap your double jump very well, but since Up-B eats Elwind blades, you can simply drift down and re-grab the ledge without much threat.
Robin Side
Disadvantage time in this match-up is when Shulk grabs you, gets you off-stage, or gets you to the ledge. Robin struggles at fighting those directly below her (since Dair is buns), so you’re basically trying to ‘get away’ and get back to neutral any time that happens.
If Shulk lands a grab and wants follow-ups, he’s going for either U-Throw or F-throw. U-Throw puts you above him, F-throw pushes you towards the ledge. U-throw U-tilt is a nasty trap. You’re forced to either Air-dodge or jump away from it. Air-dodging can get you re-grabbed easily, so I usually opt simply to jump out of this situation due to Shulk’s difficulty chasing it. At that point he’s basically hoping to pressure you towards the ledge by putting Nair/Fair in your way, or attempting to trap your landing with U-tilt.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO LAND INTO SHULK. Just don’t do it. You’re going to get hit by U-tilt, grabbed, or worse, hit by one of his Smashes. Just let him have his space. He earned it fair and square. Don’t make things worse by letting him hit you again.
Off-stage Shulk really only has two tools that threaten you. Fair and Bair. Most of the time, you’re going to deal with Fair, since Bair is obvious (he has to jump out facing backwards) and slow. If you have a good enough reaction time, Fair is extremely easy to deal with. It’s 14f start-up, which is completely reactable given the constraints placed on the situation. Our Fair is 12 frames, which means if we get it out at the right time and range, it can stuff his. That means that for best results, Shulk has to swing BEFORE he’s close enough for us to swing, so it’s very easy to predict when he’s going to go for it and simply air-dodge it. You should really only get hit by it if you’re in a position where you CAN’T really air-dodge it. (You’ve gone too low, air-dodging would leave you too low, etc.) OR he’s in Jump and you just DIDN’T REALIZE HE COULD JUMP THAT HIGH.
Robin is floaty enough that you can basically just tumble back towards the stage, save your double jump, and react to what he commits to edge-guarding you with. If he tries to cover the low option, jump, Elwind, you’re back on stage, goodjob. If going high is less of an option, that’s when it gets a bit dicier, since you have to either hit him with Fair, or weave around the Fair/Dair/Bair mix-up. Not impossible, but less trivial.
