So back in Gen IV I had a somewhat defensive sun team that used Jumpluff to annoy the opponent as well as some other generic Uber crap I don't remember to actually win the game (knowing how I built my Gen IV Ubers teams it was probably Forry/Giratina-O/Darkrai/etc.). However, sadly, the release of Prankster pokemon (and more specifically their extremely high presence in the early BW meta) made running a sun team just for Jumpluff seem very unwise. But, with the release of Regenerator Ho-Oh, sun teams have become not only viable in Ubers but dominant. Since there are now two good reasons to play a sun team, I decided to lurk Smogon for some sets and then frankenstein them together into a team. It's been pretty successful - peaked in the top 50 of the Pokemon Showdown ladder with a 1792 rating.
But anyway, here's the team.
Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
Overview:
If you don't recognize this Groudon then you probably don't play Ubers. This guy has been a great supporter ever since Stealth Rock was invented. His huge bulk, decent unboosted attacking stats, phazing ability, and, of course, Drought also get a lot of use on this team. He's the most important pokemon on the team in the sense that the rest of the team is designed around him. The team can function alright without him though and I've even pulled out a few victories in rain.
Why did you [insert frivolous detail here]?
There's really no pertinent questions here since this set has been around in some form or another for almost 6 years. Roar is used over Dragon Tail to get around Substitute, which is actually a big problem for this team (specifically SubPhaze Giratina-O). The 4 EVs in SpD were originally in Spe, but they weren't doing jack **** there and I felt like he could afford to at least be a tiny bit better at taking special hits.
Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Substitute
Overview:
As I was making the team, it became clear to me that with a defensive Groudon, a supporting Jumpluff, and Forretress, it would make more sense to use a defensive Ho-Oh than an offensive one and go for a full stall team. And let me tell you, this works really well. Ho-Oh's natural special bulk let him shrug off neutral damage special hits like they're nothing and Sacred Fire turns worrisome physical attackers like Groudon and Arceus into docile little babies who have to struggle to do damage against SubRecover PP stalling. Kyogre is obviously still a problem and other Ho-Ohs are real pains to fight against, but in general, once Ho-Oh gets a sub up, there's very little that can threaten him. Even Stealth Rock is not too much of an issue thanks to Roost and Regenerator, although I definitely feel more comfortable when it's off the table. I was initially concerned about recoil from Brave Bird, but it's mostly turned out to be negligible. 248 HP EVs are used to make sure his HP is at an odd number for SR purposes and the rest are put into Spe, which means that he barely outspeeds uninvested base 90s. Regenerator Ho-Oh is just great, and it's exactly what Ho-Oh needed to be viable (See? Gamefreak can give good things to those who need them...although I guess even a blind squirrel can find a nut).
How badly does this set lose to PP stalling?
So badly. Giratina and Mewtwo are the last pokemon I want to see when I've got Ho-Oh up and running. If Ho-Oh could learn Dragon Tail, I would seriously consider running it over Brave Bird just to get them out of my face. Oh well, at least Giratina can't burn me, right?
Jumpluff @ Leftovers
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Spd / 68 SDef / 188 Def
Timid Nature
- Encore
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Substitute
Overview:
If you combined Darkrai, Ferrothorn, and Wobbuffet into one pokemon...you would probably get Arceus. But if you took all of their supporting abilities (the ones that didn't create hazards, switch items, or trap opponents) and combined them, you would get this guy. That's probably the worst summary I've ever written but whatever, Jumpluff is awesome. Its speed is the key here. Jumpluff gets 700 speed in the sun. The number of pokemon who can potentially outspeed him at that point can be counted on one hand. But with great speed comes great supporting moves, and Jumpluff has great supporting moves. His monstrous speed stat allows him to come in on non-priority boosting sweepers and Encore them into frustration. He can then Sleep Powder the opponent's switch-in and set up for SubSeeding afterwards, and with HP at a minimum he is almost always able to get at least 20% of his health back every turn (unless they die of course). Combined with an entry hazard suite like the one on this team, Jumpluff can at times be one of the most effective phazers in the game. But the real gem of Jumpluff is that even if Chlorophyll isn't active, he's still pretty damn fast. He can easily outspeed base 90s and base 100s, and although he's not going to be faster than scarfers or anything, he can still do most of the stuff I talked about earlier. The only thing I'm unsure of right now is the EVs. I can't put any into HP since I want to maximize the recovery from Leech Seed, so it mostly comes down to fooling around with how much to put in Def and how much to put in SpD. I think that ideally I need to have enough Def for the subs to survive an uninvested neutral nature Dragon Tail, but all the common users aside from Lugia have a chance to break subs with that move even if Jumpluff has max defenses. I'll mess around with it more I guess.
Why use this over Whimsicott?
Forretress @Leftovers Red Card
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Pain Split
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Volt Switch
Overview:
Remember how I said that Groudon pretty much hasn't changed in 6 years? Forretress has been around for nearly 13 years and this is pretty much the extent of his development as a pokemon. Back in Gen II Forretress used to run Rapid Spin, an entry hazard move that mostly only hit lesser threats, a recovery move, and a move to get him out of situations he didn't want to be in. Instead, this set goes in a different direction. Forretress does run Rapid Spin because that's why you run him over most other steel-type entry hazard users, but the rest of the set is a rich series of unique intricacies. Instead of an entry hazard that is only occasionally relevant, Forry uses Spikes, which hit everything that is threatening while leaving many major physical attackers of Ubers still vulnerable to being burnt, unlike Toxic Spikes would (RELEVANCE!). Instead of a simple recovery move, Forretress run Pain Split, which not only recovers his own HP but also puts a dent in his opponents'. Instead of a move that simply lets Forry escape from unfavorable situations, Forry now has access to Volt Switch, which deals super effective damage to a lot of key threats in the metagame like Kyogre, Tentacruel, and Lugia.
MAN, HASN'T FORRETRESS CHANGED SO MUCH YOU GUYS.
Why use this over Ferrothorn/Skarmory/Excadrill/Tentacruel/Espeon/Deoxys formes/Dialga/Smeargle/Steelix/etc.?
I'm just gonna address these all at once and cross them off as I go. What was important to me in this spot was a pokemon with good physical bulk (Espeon, Tentacruel, Deoxys N and A) and a dragon resistance (Dialga, Deoxys S and D, Smeargle) with access to Rapid Spin (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Steelix) who could set up entry hazards besides Stealth Rock (Excadrill). Out of all of the ones that I mentioned, Ferrothorn could probably work the best as a replacement for Forretress, but the lack of Rapid Spin becomes really pronounced when you have Ho-Oh on your team for obvious reasons.
EDIT: Testing Red Card. Gimmicky I know, but it actually puts in a decent amount of work and leftovers has a bit of dis-synergy with Pain Split.
Chansey @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Softboiled
- Toxic
- Wish
Overview:
Another standard set. One fun thing to note is that originally I had Water Absorb SubPunch Poliwrath in this slot to use as a ghetto counter to Kyogre and Ferrothorn. Running Jumpluff on a team wasn't gimmicky enough for me, I wanted to go ALL THE WAY. But after some run-ins with Palkia and special attacking Arceus, I decided to go with an actual special wall instead of just a situational gimmick. Enter the standard Chansey. Chansey is particularly useful on this team for her ability to Toxic things that are really annoying, pass big Wishes that usually completely refill other party members' health, tank hits from big special attackers like Kyogre and Palkia, and ignore any status conditions my opponent might try and use on me. I've considered Aromatherapy, but status hasn't been a big enough issue for me to really merit it.
Why use this over Latias now that Soul Dew is back?
Several reasons. For starters there's Chansey's superior overall physical bulk and its ability to take ice and dragon attacks that Latias can't, even with help from Soul Dew. In Gen IV Blissey (and by extension Chansey) and Soul Dew Latias would take Ice Beams about equally well, but with Kyurem-W running around now I just don't want to take that chance. Latias' typing is also more problematic against Tyranitar, which is significant since this team is more weak to sand than other types of weather. There's also the fact that Latias is way more suceptible to status than Chansey. Latias has to sacrifice a moveslot for Refresh to get the same effect as Chansey's natural ability or suffer through Toxic and Thunder Wave. There's also other things Latias can't do as well as Chansey like wishpass. But the biggest issue with Latias is her four moveslot syndrome. I cannot think of any way for Latias to perform all of the duties on this team that I use Chansey. At best you have to choose between running Wish and running Refresh and at worst you have to choose between running a support Latias or running an aggressive Latias (or Latios). If you can think of any way to remedy this, I'd love to know.
Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 4Atk Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fusion Flare
- Ice Beam
-Outrage Earth Power
Overview:
Behind everygreat good decent successful stall team is a great revenge killer, and in my opinion this is one of the best revenge killers in the format right now. I made a post in another thread here about how amazing I thought Specs Kyurem-W was and I stand by it, but as I mentioned before, early testing showed that this team was weak to Palkia. I decided to sort of overcompensate for this by both adding Blissey and a Scarf to Kyurem-W when in retrospect Blissey was probably enough. That's not to say I regret running Kyurem-W though, quite the opposite. He's often the best pokemon on my team because he's the only one who can switch in and be an immediate threat to everything (except Heatran I guess but few people use him). I think that my early problems with Kyurem-W was in how I was playing him. I used to think that Kyurem-W was like SpecsKyogre where you can just slap him down and make your opponent deal with him. But it's more apparent to me now that with his specific movepool he needs to be used more like a surgeon's knife and less like a sledgehammer - he can hit like a truck and be incredibly effective, but he needs to be used in a very careful and precise way. If you have to switch him in more than twice in a match, you're probably playing him wrong. A brief note about the EV spread - it still needs to be optimized. In theory I could run 220 Spe and outspeed everything below base 95 speed that I could realistically expect to see in Ubers, but I know that the Timid Scarf Kyurem-Whites are probably running max speed and I'd rather gamble on speed ties than make Outrage a tiny bit more powerful. Naive also might not be the best nature and I'll test Hasty soon. My concern with Hasty was that Scizor would be a problem then but he doesn't seem to be showing his face around Ubers lately and if he does I have Ho-Oh as support, so it might just work.
Do you ever actually use Outrage?
Not really, but on any given Kyurem-W set you're going to use one of the other three moves 90% of the time anyway. I chose Outrage here because I felt that having a physical STAB option off Kyurem-W's impressive (if unboosted) base 120 Atk was a better idea than having the redundancy of Dragon Pulse or a janky coverage move like Focus Blast (blech).
EDIT 7/17/12: No. Earth Power is way better which is why I added it and changed the nature to Timid.
So that's my team. I love it. Discuss.
But anyway, here's the team.
Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
Overview:
If you don't recognize this Groudon then you probably don't play Ubers. This guy has been a great supporter ever since Stealth Rock was invented. His huge bulk, decent unboosted attacking stats, phazing ability, and, of course, Drought also get a lot of use on this team. He's the most important pokemon on the team in the sense that the rest of the team is designed around him. The team can function alright without him though and I've even pulled out a few victories in rain.
Why did you [insert frivolous detail here]?
There's really no pertinent questions here since this set has been around in some form or another for almost 6 years. Roar is used over Dragon Tail to get around Substitute, which is actually a big problem for this team (specifically SubPhaze Giratina-O). The 4 EVs in SpD were originally in Spe, but they weren't doing jack **** there and I felt like he could afford to at least be a tiny bit better at taking special hits.
Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Substitute
Overview:
As I was making the team, it became clear to me that with a defensive Groudon, a supporting Jumpluff, and Forretress, it would make more sense to use a defensive Ho-Oh than an offensive one and go for a full stall team. And let me tell you, this works really well. Ho-Oh's natural special bulk let him shrug off neutral damage special hits like they're nothing and Sacred Fire turns worrisome physical attackers like Groudon and Arceus into docile little babies who have to struggle to do damage against SubRecover PP stalling. Kyogre is obviously still a problem and other Ho-Ohs are real pains to fight against, but in general, once Ho-Oh gets a sub up, there's very little that can threaten him. Even Stealth Rock is not too much of an issue thanks to Roost and Regenerator, although I definitely feel more comfortable when it's off the table. I was initially concerned about recoil from Brave Bird, but it's mostly turned out to be negligible. 248 HP EVs are used to make sure his HP is at an odd number for SR purposes and the rest are put into Spe, which means that he barely outspeeds uninvested base 90s. Regenerator Ho-Oh is just great, and it's exactly what Ho-Oh needed to be viable (See? Gamefreak can give good things to those who need them...although I guess even a blind squirrel can find a nut).
How badly does this set lose to PP stalling?
So badly. Giratina and Mewtwo are the last pokemon I want to see when I've got Ho-Oh up and running. If Ho-Oh could learn Dragon Tail, I would seriously consider running it over Brave Bird just to get them out of my face. Oh well, at least Giratina can't burn me, right?
Jumpluff @ Leftovers
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Spd / 68 SDef / 188 Def
Timid Nature
- Encore
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Substitute
Overview:
If you combined Darkrai, Ferrothorn, and Wobbuffet into one pokemon...you would probably get Arceus. But if you took all of their supporting abilities (the ones that didn't create hazards, switch items, or trap opponents) and combined them, you would get this guy. That's probably the worst summary I've ever written but whatever, Jumpluff is awesome. Its speed is the key here. Jumpluff gets 700 speed in the sun. The number of pokemon who can potentially outspeed him at that point can be counted on one hand. But with great speed comes great supporting moves, and Jumpluff has great supporting moves. His monstrous speed stat allows him to come in on non-priority boosting sweepers and Encore them into frustration. He can then Sleep Powder the opponent's switch-in and set up for SubSeeding afterwards, and with HP at a minimum he is almost always able to get at least 20% of his health back every turn (unless they die of course). Combined with an entry hazard suite like the one on this team, Jumpluff can at times be one of the most effective phazers in the game. But the real gem of Jumpluff is that even if Chlorophyll isn't active, he's still pretty damn fast. He can easily outspeed base 90s and base 100s, and although he's not going to be faster than scarfers or anything, he can still do most of the stuff I talked about earlier. The only thing I'm unsure of right now is the EVs. I can't put any into HP since I want to maximize the recovery from Leech Seed, so it mostly comes down to fooling around with how much to put in Def and how much to put in SpD. I think that ideally I need to have enough Def for the subs to survive an uninvested neutral nature Dragon Tail, but all the common users aside from Lugia have a chance to break subs with that move even if Jumpluff has max defenses. I'll mess around with it more I guess.
Why use this over Whimsicott?
- Immunity to Toxic Spikes makes SubSeed stalling easier.
- The most commonly used priority move in Ubers is Arceus' Extremespeed (the second most common is Rayquaza's Extremespeed and the
thirdfourth is Deoxys' Extremespeed...are you seeing a pattern here?), which has +2 priority meaning that you're dead no matter which one you picked. - Sleep Powder, though not the most accurate sleep move in the game, is still a sleep move with a viable accuracy. The only sleep move Whimsicott gets is Grasswhistle. Yeah.
- Whimsicott gets Taunt, but the fact of that is that I've never really been in a situation where Taunt would have been better for me than Encore. I guess it would be good against Forry, but Taunting them will just make him Volt Switch whereas Encoring them will give you time to set up some SubSeeding or your own Forretress.
- The differences between Prankster and Chlorophyll are almost trivial in a format where most pokemon can break your subs without boosting at all.
- They both suck so who cares?
Forretress @
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Pain Split
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Volt Switch
Overview:
Remember how I said that Groudon pretty much hasn't changed in 6 years? Forretress has been around for nearly 13 years and this is pretty much the extent of his development as a pokemon. Back in Gen II Forretress used to run Rapid Spin, an entry hazard move that mostly only hit lesser threats, a recovery move, and a move to get him out of situations he didn't want to be in. Instead, this set goes in a different direction. Forretress does run Rapid Spin because that's why you run him over most other steel-type entry hazard users, but the rest of the set is a rich series of unique intricacies. Instead of an entry hazard that is only occasionally relevant, Forry uses Spikes, which hit everything that is threatening while leaving many major physical attackers of Ubers still vulnerable to being burnt, unlike Toxic Spikes would (RELEVANCE!). Instead of a simple recovery move, Forretress run Pain Split, which not only recovers his own HP but also puts a dent in his opponents'. Instead of a move that simply lets Forry escape from unfavorable situations, Forry now has access to Volt Switch, which deals super effective damage to a lot of key threats in the metagame like Kyogre, Tentacruel, and Lugia.
MAN, HASN'T FORRETRESS CHANGED SO MUCH YOU GUYS.
Why use this over Ferrothorn/Skarmory/Excadrill/Tentacruel/Espeon/Deoxys formes/Dialga/Smeargle/Steelix/etc.?
I'm just gonna address these all at once and cross them off as I go. What was important to me in this spot was a pokemon with good physical bulk (
EDIT: Testing Red Card. Gimmicky I know, but it actually puts in a decent amount of work and leftovers has a bit of dis-synergy with Pain Split.
Chansey @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Softboiled
- Toxic
- Wish
Overview:
Another standard set. One fun thing to note is that originally I had Water Absorb SubPunch Poliwrath in this slot to use as a ghetto counter to Kyogre and Ferrothorn. Running Jumpluff on a team wasn't gimmicky enough for me, I wanted to go ALL THE WAY. But after some run-ins with Palkia and special attacking Arceus, I decided to go with an actual special wall instead of just a situational gimmick. Enter the standard Chansey. Chansey is particularly useful on this team for her ability to Toxic things that are really annoying, pass big Wishes that usually completely refill other party members' health, tank hits from big special attackers like Kyogre and Palkia, and ignore any status conditions my opponent might try and use on me. I've considered Aromatherapy, but status hasn't been a big enough issue for me to really merit it.
Why use this over Latias now that Soul Dew is back?
Several reasons. For starters there's Chansey's superior overall physical bulk and its ability to take ice and dragon attacks that Latias can't, even with help from Soul Dew. In Gen IV Blissey (and by extension Chansey) and Soul Dew Latias would take Ice Beams about equally well, but with Kyurem-W running around now I just don't want to take that chance. Latias' typing is also more problematic against Tyranitar, which is significant since this team is more weak to sand than other types of weather. There's also the fact that Latias is way more suceptible to status than Chansey. Latias has to sacrifice a moveslot for Refresh to get the same effect as Chansey's natural ability or suffer through Toxic and Thunder Wave. There's also other things Latias can't do as well as Chansey like wishpass. But the biggest issue with Latias is her four moveslot syndrome. I cannot think of any way for Latias to perform all of the duties on this team that I use Chansey. At best you have to choose between running Wish and running Refresh and at worst you have to choose between running a support Latias or running an aggressive Latias (or Latios). If you can think of any way to remedy this, I'd love to know.
The real answer is that I forgot that Soul Dew was released and I'll probably test a Latias version of this team as soon as I'm done writing this and compare results.
Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 4
- Draco Meteor
- Fusion Flare
- Ice Beam
-
Overview:
Behind every
Do you ever actually use Outrage?
EDIT 7/17/12: No. Earth Power is way better which is why I added it and changed the nature to Timid.
So that's my team. I love it. Discuss.
