Rising Uppercut (and Tornado Uppercut) is Frame-1 Invincible

[Thinkaman]

Go run it in training against any other move, including Little Mac or ZSS jab.

That's right.

Little Mac has a ground/aerial/OoS f1-invincible combo-breaker option that does 10% and has non-trivial KO power.

The game has been out for 4 months.
How the **** did we not know this?

Also, Dash Counter seems to go active on frame 4, instead of the usual frame 5 for Slip/Compact Counter.
So that's fun too.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hrmm, it always felt like a good OoS option, so long as you're facing your attacker. So frame 1 is invincible. Is that not the same frame where the first hitbox appears for the move? I'd check for myself, but your frame data dump is confusing as all hell.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hrmm, it always felt like a good OoS option, so long as you're facing your attacker. So frame 1 is invincible. Is that not the same frame where the first hitbox appears for the move? I'd check for myself, but your frame data dump is confusing as all hell.

The move hits on frame 3, or possibly 4 depending on how the connecting states work. It is hard to measure (and doesn't matter much) due to the invincibility making it win regardless.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The move hits on frame 3, or possibly 4 depending on how the connecting states work. It is hard to measure (and doesn't matter much) due to the invincibility making it win regardless.

I agree this is fantastic news, but doesn't that leave a blind spot of at least one frame, theoretically? Between Frame 1 and Frame 3/4. What if your shield was being hit by, say, Zelda's F smash which is multihit. Couldn't that hit you during the blind spot if you attempted the move during that attack? I know we also need to factor in shield stun, and though my frame knowledge is a little rusty, I'm pretty sure you are incapable of shield jumping during shield stun.

Obviously in this scenario, you could just wait for her f smash to end and then use UpB, but I'm suddenly very curious.

 

[Thinkaman]

The invincibility lasts at least 3 frames, though seemingly not much more. There's no gap.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The invincibility lasts at least 3 frames, though seemingly not much more. There's no gap.

Well that will do it, then! Sounds like Mac baby's got a new defense to use against grab-happy opponents. And grabs are definitely his Achilles heel.

 

[Masque]

Good to know! Will have to start incorporating this into my play.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This would probably make platforms more welcome for us, as if we miss we have a place to mix up our landing.

The horizontal range of the initial hit is roughly the same as Mac's full shield angled to the side. This can be seen easily by going into a full run and shielding; since you're already holding Forward, the shield angle will already be maxed out at forward.

You carry some of your vertical momentum on start-up, so if you're in the air, you have to make some adjustments to get the initial hit to land. If you're falling in a jump (normal fall vs. fast fall is a negligible difference in my testing), press Up-B when their hurtbox is horizontally parallel to Mac's foot (one is usually lower than the other; use the lower one). If you're rising in a jump, press Up-B when their hurtbox is horizontally parallel to Mac's stomach. If you're at the peak of a jump (as in, not significantly moving upward or downward), press Up-B when their hurtbox is horizontally parallel to your shorts.

Also, don't forget this for added range--

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

I practiced this quite a bit at our weekly smashfest today. Really loving this option! Thank you for pointing it out.

 

[Splash Damage]

Only just found this thread now. Looks like mac has a much better option than counter for combo breaking, Huh?

Also, I was playing Mac dittos against an excellent Mac Main, and he found out that , If you DI upward and mash B when being hit by any rapid jab,, you will 90% of the time connect with your Up-B faster than their finisher can come out, and the bottom hitboxes will connect and lock them in. From the air.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ah, I didn't think about that. Smart stuff!

Somewhat related--Jigglypuff has a list of multi-hit moves that she can Rest immediately after due to its Frame-1 invincibility; I imagine the list would look pretty similar for Mac.

These are the numbers for that (assuming the opponent is at similar percents for Rage as Jigglypuff):

Bowser Jr. - Jab2 @ 15% (must be close), Jab1 @ 30%
Diddy - Jab2 @ 40%
G&W - Jab1 @ 90%
Little Mac - Multi-Jab @ ~20%
Sheik - Jab2 @ 50%
Robin - Jab1 @ 20%, Jab1 @ 85%
Duck Hunt - Jab1 @ 45%
Kirby - Jab2 @ 90% (must be very close)
Fox - Jab1 @ ~15%, Jab2 @ 85%
Falco - Jab2 @ 100%

 

[Splash Damage]

Ah, I didn't think about that. Smart stuff!

Somewhat related--Jigglypuff has a list of multi-hit moves that she can Rest immediately after due to its Frame-1 invincibility; I imagine the list would look pretty similar for Mac.

These are the numbers for that (assuming the opponent is at similar percents for Rage as Jigglypuff):

Bowser Jr. - Jab2 @ 15% (must be close), Jab1 @ 30%
Diddy - Jab2 @ 40%
G&W - Jab1 @ 90%
Little Mac - Multi-Jab @ ~20%
Sheik - Jab2 @ 50%
Robin - Jab1 @ 20%, Jab1 @ 85%
Duck Hunt - Jab1 @ 45%
Kirby - Jab2 @ 90% (must be very close)
Fox - Jab1 @ ~15%, Jab2 @ 85%
Falco - Jab2 @ 100%

Wow, this is big stuff, and considering the huge frame 1 hitbox for this attack, there's likely a lot more options and utility. Time to hit the lab, I suppose¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wow, this is big stuff, and considering the huge frame 1 hitbox for this attack, there's likely a lot more options and utility. Time to hit the lab, I suppose¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The hitbox starts on Frame 3, as an aside.

 

[PHYTO-1]

if you wanna get real technical and flashy, now you can OOS UpB certain multihit fsmashes that connect real quick.

like Zelda Fsmash, Diddy Fsmash, Duck Hunt Fsmash/dsmash. just shield the first hit and spam jump+ upB.
for all other multihit fsmashes you can actually counter OOS for maximum damage

it also works for other annoying attacks like sonic spindash, rosaluma dash attack, ROB sideb, DK upb. i think pretty much every multihit move except aether.

though its way easier to just wait for the move to end, then punish instead of interrupting it.


also , this is just a guestimation, but i believe you can upB out of moves that have at least a 10 frame window between hits. (worked with Mac's rapid jab, 10 frame window -- and Luigi's dash attack, 11 frame window) did not really do extensive testing yet. will do some more research though

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's not as simple as noting the number of frames between hits; different attacks have more shieldstun than others due to different knockback/damage values.

I'd definitely be interested in testing it for something like Sonic Down-B, though.

 

[PHYTO-1]

It's not as simple as noting the number of frames between hits; different attacks have more shieldstun than others due to different knockback/damage values.

I'd definitely be interested in testing it for something like Sonic Down-B, though.

i tried it with spincharge, and they just clank.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I assume "Spin Charge" is Down-B. You're gonna have to be more specific.

I wonder if we could get a Jab in before they're able to shield after said clank. He might be frozen for longer than us.

 

[PHYTO-1]

I assume "Spin Charge" is Down-B. You're gonna have to be more specific.

I wonder if we could get a Jab in before they're able to shield after said clank. He might be frozen for longer than us.

yeah, with spindash (sideB) you can OOS upb, but not with spincharge (downB). [i dont see how thats not specific >_>]

however i didnt do any testing for full charged spins or if they spin into jump so that might be different

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A bunch of his moves involve spinning. I don't know the name of every single special attack; easier to just say the command itself, is what I mean.

Does the full-charge version deal more damage? That has an effect on how long clanks take, usually in favor of the character dealing less damage.

 

[PHYTO-1]

A bunch of his moves involve spinning. I don't know the name of every single special attack; easier to just say the command itself, is what I mean.

Does the full-charge version deal more damage? That has an effect on how long clanks take, usually in favor of the character dealing less damage.

i can only assume.. all i know is that you can no longer beat it with autojab if its fully charged

 

[PHYTO-1]

I assume "Spin Charge" is Down-B. You're gonna have to be more specific.

I wonder if we could get a Jab in before they're able to shield after said clank. He might be frozen for longer than us.

ok so no you cant jab them after clank.

fully charged down b still clanks too

 

[Splash Damage]

Just checking, it has the 3 frame invincibility in the air version as well, correct?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, it does.

 

[Splash Damage]