Rewarding Perseverance?

[PwnyRide]

(i'll let you guys decide if this is a waste of a thread, but i'd really like to hear other people's thoughts on this.)

Okay so heres the deal. A 'friend' of mine had a discussion about Zamus, in the whole scheme of things. This 'friend' believes that practicing playing Zamus, will, in the end, get you nowhere (besides to achieve self satisfaction, similar to, say Melee Zelda).

I on the other hand see Zamus as rewarding if you put in the effort to learn how to play as her.

Now i know 'rewarding' can be interpreted as either the 'feeling' you get from talking someone out with Zamus, or the 'you might win a tourney or two' rewarding. Knowing my 'friend', he's more than likely referring to the tournament side of things, but he wont give a straight answer.

From my experience, Zamus has been a good guage of my increasing skill. For example, my main is and will always be Zelda, and i'm at the point where i'm making only VERY small steps in regards to evolving my technique with her, whereas with Zamus, i find myself improving more regularly (although my strength stil lies with Zelda).

So i ask you instead, could Zamus be compared to a Melee Zelda, getting nowhere in terms of tournament value and instead catering to true fans of the character, or does Zamus (in particular, moreso than any other character), with enough practice and persistence, have decent future potential, competiton wise?

 

[Ørion]

I definitely feel that zamus is tournament viable. She is fast, has ridiculous aerials, and has paralyzing attacks. She also starts the game with three items which, if you know how to use them, can really rack up damage, or even KO an opponent. She does have some weaknesses, but all characters do. I think that she will be able to be competitive in the right hands.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

She is really good, if you ask me, she has a very high learning curve compared to say, Mario, also, when I think I got her down, I come here and someone has figured out something new, and I got a new technique to get down.
Her only drawbacks I really notice are her slow grab, and lightness, ugh, Ike annoys me.

 

[BANSHI]

so he basically thinks zss sucks, i've won tournnaments, let me play you friend NAO

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS could be viable, although it will take time to see if her weaknesses are that big. She has a lot of moves that link together well, unlike Melee Zelda, and these moves can link into some relatively powerful kill moves. She does have some serious issues, however. I'm not talking about her slow-grab. I'm not talking about her recovery. I'm talking about her conspicuous lack of IASA frames, most notably in her jab. Without a doubt, her jab combo sucks. None of the jabs can be interrupted sufficiently early by CCing or shield canceling, except by other jabs, and the jabs don't cause enough hitstun to combo if the first one connects. Most characters can shieldgrab the second hit, and if you try to follow jabs up with tilts, you tend to get punished unless you use an utilt.

This basically means that Zamus has a near worthless close range game, and in the competitive scene, that's bad, especially when she faces off against characters like Ike and Snake, whose jab combos are actual combos.

 

[Tristan_win]

Most definitely, even though like Phootbag had pointed out she does have her issues like recovery, grabbing speed, IASA frames, and her disability to retaliate with a short hop aerial out of shield(mostly) she is still tournament able if you learn how to use her correctly.

Unlike most characters Zamus has a lot of corks and an ever growing bag tricks because of them, which will only lead to more mastering.

..In a lot of way Zamus is like Melee Samus as far a development.

 

[DeliciousCake]

If your friend can't immediately pick up ZSS on the spot and beat a person who has been maining her, then he is wrong. Punch him in the face for me.

 

[PwnyRide]

If your friend can't immediately pick up ZSS on the spot and beat a person who has been maining her, then he is wrong. Punch him in the face for me.

I'll be sure to do that

So it's come down to Zamus having all that 'untapped' potential, since the Brawl community is still young, with alot more things to learn. THIS would explain why, using the example ive used before, progress with Zelda is a grind (not to say that there wont be any progress in the future however), whereas progress with Zamus is regularly expanding and evolving, because theres always something to learn.

Thanks for the great feedback on this

 

[Garde]

Well, it's really early on and most characters have developed a considerable amount since the time of release. Still, it's only been two months since we got the game in the US, and Melee had developments occurring for many characters YEARS after the game was released (look at how Link was played when Melee first came out, and then after Deadly Alliance's X Japan, Kubuu, and DBR's Germ really helped develop his playstyle to something that people could respect).

For now, I think she is definitely tournament viable, though I doubt a great Zamus player (on an equal skill level of several opponents) would be able to win tournaments solely with her. I've found she does pretty well against a large portion of the cast, but some matches just really screw her over to the point where if you've lost the first match in a set of 3 there's no hope for you if you stick with her (because you'll get a stage counter picked even if you win the 2nd match). I have to agree that Zamus's jab is horrible if you have to get up close (I try to avoid getting up close as much as possible and rely on mind games when I am that close) as it's not even close to being as reliable as normal jabs are (which is why I use it in the awkward way I do, since it catches people off guard and makes them have to guess, somewhat).

She's good overall, but the only thing she really excels at is her range via side+B. There are characters that are better in the air than her. There are many characters better close up than her. There are many characters that have better projectiles than her. She's definitely not bad, but you'll find that you'll need to rely on different tactics depending on which character your playing against. Some seem practically unbeatable if you're playing against someone of equal skill (this is obviously subject to change as more things are discovered about both characters).

The real question is whether her lack of excelling in any one venue puts her at a disadvantage in the larger picture, or whether it gives her a slight edge against the majority of the cast. We won't know that until there is a lot more tournament exposure for her and exposure of other characters in general. Depending on opponents' ignorance does not make her competitive, because eventually (if she does well in tourneys) people will catch on to all her little tricks and it will come down to whether she actually has the tools to compete, or whether she's just a gimmick character and nothing more.

As for Zelda, I think one of the reasons you feel like you're improving a lot more with Zamus is because she has a lot more nuances to her. Zelda is really straight forward and doesn't have many quirks about her, while Zamus has a plethora of strange qualities that enhance the experience of playing her (if you're looking for a challenge or variety). Once you've learned how to control Din's Fire and Farore's Wind, the only thing left is perfecting spacing and mind games. She's a whole lot more limited in options, but her options are generally much better than Zamus's. She has much higher priority moves and can get KOs at much lower %, and is easier to handle with a lower SH and relatively easy combos that rack up damage. Zamus has cool looking combos, but hers are considerably more difficult to execute and she must rely on building up damage much higher than Zelda and is painfully reliant on her side+B in many matches. What it really boils down to is that Zamus needs a lot more coordination and you need to learn how to use all of her moves and when to use them to really be effective. Zelda's strategy and how you use her moves do not change much between matches and she handles like many other characters, aside from her up+B and side+B.

 

[Snakeee]

ZSS could be viable, although it will take time to see if her weaknesses are that big. She has a lot of moves that link together well, unlike Melee Zelda, and these moves can link into some relatively powerful kill moves. She does have some serious issues, however. I'm not talking about her slow-grab. I'm not talking about her recovery. I'm talking about her conspicuous lack of IASA frames, most notably in her jab. Without a doubt, her jab combo sucks. None of the jabs can be interrupted sufficiently early by CCing or shield canceling, except by other jabs, and the jabs don't cause enough hitstun to combo if the first one connects. Most characters can shieldgrab the second hit, and if you try to follow jabs up with tilts, you tend to get punished unless you use an utilt.

This basically means that Zamus has a near worthless close range game, and in the competitive scene, that's bad, especially when she faces off against characters like Ike and Snake, whose jab combos are actual combos.

I don't know what it is but I don't seem to get shield grabbed often if I time jabs right over and over when they shield them. Usually, this goes on and on until I hit them. And I'm talking about at competitive tournaments in NY so it can't be my opponents. The up tilt and d tilt are also great close range attacks. Therefore only real safe spot against ZSS seems to be the "void" of her forward B.

Anyway, I think she has a ton of potential, and I'm doing my best to unlock it. She has awesome range, surprisingly good power, insane speed especially attack speed, and can rack up a ton of damage. Her recovery in my eyes went from terrible to amazing. If you play her right you can come back from almost anything...or at least take the opponent down with you. Her biggest problems are a lack or priority in some attacks and she's obviously light, but besides that right now I can't think of much that is that big of a deal against her.

 

[Naybewon]

It's hard to say for me. I was a Zelda main in Melee and continue to be a Zelda main in Brawl.

As a Zelda main in Melee though, I can see what you're trying to get at with Zero Suit. I agree that she has the potential abilities Zelda had (with the unfortunate side effect of the KO potential of Brawl Sheik) and with work I believe she can be good. A positive to playing her, certainly, is that few people have experience against a Zero Suit who knows what they're doing (an advantage true Zelda mains from Melee had)

Anyway, I agree with you. Given the chance and practice, she can be pretty good. I just think it will be exceptionally difficult to utilize her well considering her lacking KO potential and rock bottom priority.

 

[Garde]

Rock bottom priority? She tends to have fairly good priority. She doesn't have amazing priority on most of her moves, but she doesn't have horrible priority. She just doesn't have disjointed hitboxes on most of her attacks, but most characters don't. She'll lose to MK 95% of the time, yes, but against a large portion of the cast her priority does just fine as long as you know which moves you can't beat (she also has range and speed on her side, which makes her more than playable).

Brawl Sheik's KO potential? I mean, Zamus doesn't get KOs often at under 100% but there is a fair portion of characters that suffer from that problem as well... At least she has combos that build damage fast. Even if they're a bit awkward at first, it's better than what a bunch of other characters have, imho.

 

[Snakeee]

Rock bottom priority? She tends to have fairly good priority. She doesn't have amazing priority on most of her moves, but she doesn't have horrible priority. She just doesn't have disjointed hitboxes on most of her attacks, but most characters don't. She'll lose to MK 95% , yes, but against a large portion of the cast her priority does just fine as long as you know which moves you can't beat (she also has range and speed on her side, which makes her more than playable).

Brawl Sheik's KO potential? I mean, Zamus doesn't get KOs often at under 100% but there is a fair portion of characters that suffer from that problem as well... At least she has combos that build damage fast. Even if they're a bit awkward at first, it's better than what a bunch of other characters have, imho.

"She'll lose to MK 95% of the time"
Hahahahaha you're kidding me right? The match up is probably around 6-4 Metaknight. Yeah he might have a bit of an advantage over her, but it's not much. I think the majority ZSS players (there aren't many of us lol) might just be bad at the match up since I'm hearing so much of him being a counter.

Also, she has plenty of KO power. Maybe not the best but just about every attack of hers can kill.

I'm upset that you didn't respond to my whole analysis too lol. And I think you made me waste my 1000th post just now

 

[Sundown]

Im intrigued about what a poster up there said:

"She has practically no SH aerials out of shield" Is that true? Now that we are talking about it, what options (besides of course shield grabbing) does she have out of shield??? I use mainly down tilt and up tilt out of shield, what else does she have?

 

[Snakeee]

Im intrigued about what a poster up there said:

"She has practically no SH aerials out of shield" Is that true? Now that we are talking about it, what options (besides of course shield grabbing) does she have out of shield??? I use mainly down tilt and up tilt out of shield, what else does she have?

D SMASH OUT OF SHIELD FTW! ...Well, if you time it right and the move you're shielding has a bit of lag.
Up smash is an option too.

 

[Garde]

Snakeee, I was talking about in a priority war, not winning matches. If you try to beat his priority, you will get hit out of your move 95% of the time. The entire paragraph was about priority, but I guess I should've been more specific.

 

[Snakeee]

Snakeee, I was talking about in a priority war, not winning matches. If you try to beat his priority, you will get hit out of your move 95% of the time. The entire paragraph was about priority, but I guess I should've been more specific.

Oh ok I knew you were talking about priority at first, but you just blatantly said you'll "lose" to Meta 95% of the time. I agree for the most part priority wise, but not with every move.

 

[Garde]

Yeah, the other day I posted in the match ups thread that I thought it was one of her most difficult matches, so I can see why you took the sentence that way.

Her f-tilt seems to be very high priority, and I try to use it as much as possible against characters with disjointed hitboxes that attack relatively quickly (MK, Marth, and even Yoshi's tail, wtf). Using f-tilt, I've tied with a lot of moves that I thought I'd have no chance of beating, though I can't say I have had much success with her other moves. Her d-tilt is actually pretty good also, but I'm not sure if it's as high priority (it ties with Yoshi's tail, but I haven't tried it against MK or Marth). Her air game loses out to disjointed hitboxes a lot, though. And somehow, the Yoshi I was playing against kept canceling my side+B at max range with several moves, but most notably his dash attack (very irritating since it made spacing a pain in the ***).

 

[Snakeee]

Yeah, the other day I posted in the match ups thread that I thought it was one of her most difficult matches, so I can see why you took the sentence that way.

Her f-tilt seems to be very high priority, and I try to use it as much as possible against characters with disjointed hitboxes that attack relatively quickly (MK, Marth, and even Yoshi's tail, wtf). Using f-tilt, I've tied with a lot of moves that I thought I'd have no chance of beating, though I can't say I have had much success with her other moves. Her d-tilt is actually pretty good also, but I'm not sure if it's as high priority (it ties with Yoshi's tail, but I haven't tried it against MK or Marth). Her air game loses out to disjointed hitboxes a lot, though. And somehow, the Yoshi I was playing against kept canceling my side+B at max range with several moves, but most notably his dash attack (very irritating since it made spacing a pain in the ***).

Hmm that's interesting I haven't been using the f-tilt too much, so I didn't notice it had decent priority. I like doing the downwards version to trip people and then D smash them though