Return of b-air from 64?

[Chauzu]

Hi,

Just wanted to see what others think about this. Pikachu was my main in Smash 64 (I only recently discovered that he was actually the man of that game, I had no idea!) and my absolute favourite move was the b-air - the back kick, which was latter removed for his new, more spin move.

I couldn't get over this and I ended up giving Pikachu up, and have barely used him since, which is a shame. Basically wanted to see if there are any others out there who miss this move as much as me. Wasn't around here when Melee was released so this might have been discussed at lenght already.

 

[Sobia6464]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pikachu.324197/

Plenty of people do. I wish those would come back. Still, a loss of a B-air isn't a reason to give up Pikachu. I love the little guy ^.^

 

[Chauzu]

:D it was such a long time ago that I don't remember much, only that I was very dissappointed. The b-air was probably my fav move and I kept using it in Melee, I couldn't get used to not doing it.

Since then I've always mained characters that has a b-air I like. Ganondorf and Dr Mario in Melee, Zelda and Kirby in Brawl.

 

[Sobia6464]

I'm personally a fan of Pika's N-air. I prefer characters with a nice N-air over any other aerial.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

You could still play Project:M. He has that Bair in there.

Either way, the Pikacopter is a pretty trash move despite how cute it is.

 

[Chauzu]

Since those who made Project M didn't bother making a PAL version that's not a possibility I'm afraid.

Maybe it'll be back in Sm4sh, we can hope.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Pikacopter didn't ever fancy me much. PM's Back Air was so kick-ass though (no pun intended), so I'd wish to see it back.

On the other hand I just think it doesn't fit with Pika's nature, and to tell you something, SSB64 had many characters using similar moves anyway.

 

[Thorizard]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pikachu.324197/

Plenty of people do. I wish those would come back. Still, a loss of a B-air isn't a reason to give up Pikachu. I love the little guy ^.^

Seriously. Use Pikachu for the taunts.

 

[~automatic]

Pika's Brawl B-air (Pikacopter) was actually good offstage and against dodgers. It also provided decent damage to low shields; so you could poke better than you would with F-air.

EDIT: It was also great right under platforms.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The fact Pikachu's F Air and B Air where changed and nerfed so much in Melee made me decide to pick another main character. Honestly, those two moves where badass. Couldn't really stand to play as Melee Pikachu so much.

I missed the ultimate damage builder F Air from 64 a lot though.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

what was his 64 fair and bair? i forget :x

 

[Vale]

what was his 64 fair and bair? i forget :x

Fair was the same rotating spin with electricity, but it seems a bit easier to combo the multiple hits of (although still moderately easy to get out of). Bair was a single back kick with decent KB.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'm not sure what Pikachu's specs are in the games.. I've always had him as my 'Arch-Nemesis' of sorts. (Until that annoying hedgehog...)

But, I do remember the B-Air being so changing... and I do wish that he had it back.

 

[Angiance]

Pikachu's N-Air and B-Air were changed to moves more unique to Pikachu, bringing the 64 moves (B-Air/N-Air) back would make Pikachu less unique, and who wants that?

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Pikachu's N-Air and B-Air were changed to moves more unique to Pikachu, bringing the 64 moves (B-Air/N-Air) back would make Pikachu less unique, and who wants that?

What is more important? Uniqueness or Usefulness?

 

[SpaceJell0]

What is more important? Uniqueness or Usefulness?

Why not both?

 

[~automatic]

Usefulness as long as it's complimentary to other moves adds uniqueness and rounds out a character.

 

[Angiance]

Pikachu's N-Air, as it is now, is a very good move (MK copied it, that's how good it is,) B-Air is very good as well (although it's out-classed by U-Air)

 

[~automatic]

B-air is what you'd finish a U-air string with if you can't land the N-air.

 

[deadjames]

You could still play Project:M. He has that Bair in there.

Either way, the Pikacopter is a pretty trash move despite how cute it is.

Are you kidding? The pikacopter is amazing, the hitboxes are huge, it's great for racking up damage, and as long you don't land prematurely it's not very easy to punish; way better than 64's b-air if you ask me.

 

[Angiance]

Pikachu's B-Air in 64 is, with no doubt, better than both of the later B-Airs; the current B-Air actually IS useful, and >unique< however which is why it should stay.

 

[deadjames]

Pikachu's B-Air in 64 is, with no doubt, better than both of the later B-Airs; the current B-Air actually IS useful, and >unique< however which is why it should stay.

Well it's been a while since I've played 64, but they put his b-air from 64 in Project M and in that it's so much less useful, it does have significant knockback, but the hitbox is so small and there are so few situations that it's actually practical to use especially when you have so many other kill options like n-air, offstage u-air, thunder, f-smash, and up-smash.

 

[Angiance]

Last I checked, 64's B-Air's a WoP; something other Chu's other aerial's don't really do as well.

 

[deadjames]

Last I checked, 64's B-Air's a WoP; something other Chu's other aerial's don't really do as well.

I don't see how that would be possible since WoP is only really applicable to Jigglypuff in Melee and Brawl, because unlike Pikachu, it has six jumps and its b-air has a huge disjointed hitbox, I'm not all that well-versed in 64's metagame, but I highly doubt anyone is going to get carried offtage by Pikachu's b-air.

 

[Angiance]

It's surprising what a Pika-pi can do when he's good at reading opponents, actually ;D

 

[deadjames]

It's surprising what a Pika-pi can do when he's good at reading opponents, actually ;D

I don't doubt Pikachu's prowess I just don't see how it's possible for a character with two jumps to juggle an opponent offstage to their death and still be able to safely make it back to the stage because unless I'm mistaken that's what a WoP entails.

 

[Thor]

Actually pretty sure it's Uair that's busted in 64 that causes the WoP - bair is just good. I seem to remember Isai in some videos finishing people off with uair to bair on stage, just uair strings for WoP, or a bair after greenhouse combos where he doesn't Usmash->Thunder for whatever reason (maybe he's late to the finish) (greenhouse combo = throws into the walls on Hyrule because there's no wall teching for people who don't play SSB64). I like Pikachu's bair but if you gave it back the uair of Smash 64 (maybe I'm wrong but I remember it having very large range) Pikachu would be ridiculous. But seeing as how that will never happen, yes I want 64 bair (or something close). It'd be so much better to RAR with then current bair.

And Quick Attack is absolutely ridiculous in Smash 64 - Pikachu can make it back from almost literally anywhere offstage if the player is trying to recover the whole time. So you can easily double bair, and if get their jump you can get back fast enough and then bair them once more for the KOs, but yes it's less effective than Jigglypuff (or uair strings).

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Pikachu's N-Air, as it is now, is a very good move (MK copied it, that's how good it is,) B-Air is very good as well (although it's out-classed by U-Air)

I agree, His current bair is very good, will it be used often and for combo strings? Probably not, but its a good shield poke tool and a good combo finisher. I also agree Uair is better, its a better feel the opponent tool with alot less risk and more reward

 

[deadjames]

I want Melee uair, just saying.

 

[Thor]

Melee uair would be nice, but uair is fine in Brawl (maybe it was just the hitstun but SSB 64 uair seemed to be ridiculously good in that game - bringing that back would be amazing).

On topic, I wouldn't mind seeing an entirely new bair either - yes 64 bair was awesome for KOs and approaching and such, but I somehow think Sakurai would view that as "going backwards" or "giving up" new design ideas. I just hope if there is a new bair, it doesn't suck. Actually I just want a bair I have a reason to RAR with (has played Falco before, maybe that's why) [and yes that includes just reducing landing lag on current bair, cuz that might set up to utilt or whatever]. Also to be clear, is Melee bair or Brawl bair considered worse (or did I just accidentally a start a war, in which case you can ignore this question)? I ask because I'm wondering if it's considered a step up to go back to Melee bair.

EDIT: Reread some stuff - if bair has a small hitbox in P:M it was either shrunk or something's wrong cuz I have very little trouble landing it in 64 (and it's an emulator where I can't even SH because my keyboard sucks so bad). Also, thunder isn't exactly easy to land, usmash is not nearly so strong in Brawl, and off-stage uair is hardly a gimp in Brawl (if you refer to the semi-spike, it was removed, but you know that) - so yes we have nair and well-placed f-smashes (I'll just say f-smash is workable) but a third (early) KO option would be very nice (nair is also used in uair nair combos so it might not always be as fresh as one would like). Although returning uair of Melee would definitely help. And I'm NOT saying Pikachu doesn't have solid KO tools already (which is why I think 64 bair doesn't come back), but a lot of them only work as expected at like 120+% - nair offstages work about 20-30% lower (as does a well-timed, sweetspotted fsmash, or it at least sets up a nair chance). Adding bair would not only let nair/bair be used as a strong comboing move at lower percents, but gives Pikachu much better early offstage KO power because you use each of them to follow up and finish someone (similarly, Ganon's fair and bair were both excellent KO/edgeguard tools in Melee - Pikachu doing that would be boss).

 

[guedes the brawler]

i like how the new b-air gives him so much mobility. RAR'ing it in brawl makes you travel decently far, and combining it with QAC... hehe

 

[Garde Noir]

If they returned they b-air from 64 to pika, they'd have to do it with everyone, as everyone in that game had a sex-kick b-air.

 

[deadjames]

I think you're confusing bair with nair.

 

[Angiance]

Brawl's B-Air is, with absolutely zero doubts, far better.

 

[Garde Noir]

I think you're confusing bair with nair.

I am. Thank you for reminding me

 

[deadjames]

Brawl's B-Air is, with absolutely zero doubts, far better.

I used to think that, but after playing Pika in Project M, I'd tend to disagree.

 

[Angiance]

No, Melee's B-Air

D-Tilt's knockback should be inwards, for stringing purposes

 

[deadjames]

That sounds like a horrible idea.

 

[Angiance]

Really, why? It'd knock them above Pika, which would lead to somethin' like SH N-Air

 

[deadjames]

Idk maybe that would work. When you said inward knockback I was thinking something more along the lines of Doc's dtilt from Melee, which isn't an altogether useless move, but doesn't really lead to any combos, it's more for mind games.