Respect for Competitive and Casuals

[CroonerMike]

So I have been surfing through various Causal vs Competitive arguments and if there is one thing that I noticed on both sides what a lack of respect. Now before I begin anything this thread is not a which side is better. I personally want to look at the positives and negatives of both sides so that everyone can come together as one. Before anyone asks, I play both Casual and Competitively so I believe I can understand the middle ground.

Let’s be honest here, We want to be like a family. In a “perfect” family, everyone should be respected. Now in reality that is not possible sometimes. But at least in our community we can be respectful of the opinions of others. Sometimes we tend to get a little self-centered and say some rather hurtful or stupid commented to one another. I won’t hide the fact, I have done this as well as troll in a childish way. I think the first step to fixing the problems is to look at the positives/negatives of both sides.

Competitive players:

*Passionate

*Smart (Smash tech)

*Aggressive

*Protective of each other


Casual Players:

*Passionate

*Protective of each other

*Enjoys the game as a whole

*Easy to play with

I could list more even some of the same for both groups but thats not my point. Both groups are passionate and protective. I find this as a way that connects both the groups together to find that middle ground. We all have our own idea of what smash is to us but we can not let our opinions hurt others. (Of course this is the internet, someone is always going to get hurt) But casuals and competitive players are much alike despite what players say. the players just have different ideals.

If I can relate the battle between the two groups to a subject, it would be music. Take for example Rap Vs. Other Genres. Some would say Rap is not real music due to lyrics, formation, and talent. Although I personally do not care for Rap, It is still music and respect it in that sense as well as respecting my pals who love Rap. Casuals are still SSB players as well as Competitive players. We all play differently.

Let’s talk about understanding each other. For example, Competitive plays love melee. Melee is regarded as one of the best Smash games in the series as we all know. If players like that game more than the others, so be it! Casuals must understand this though, Not every game that comes out should be liked! That being said, Brawl is loved by a lot of Casuals...or at least from where I come from. Competitive players should understand that this is not melee and will never be melee and should not get upset over people liking Brawl. One thing that bothers me is if Smash 4 will be Brawl 2.0 or Melee 2.0...Let’s be real here, it will definitely not be Melee 2.0, but it will NOT be Brawl 2.0 either. In fact, it will be Smash 4! Casuals should not tease competitive players for wanting a melee type of game style. It’s something that made them very happy and grew on them. I understand what it’s like to see something passionate go away. On the flip side, don’t call out casuals or competitive players who like how the game plays now.

The point I am trying to make here is that both groups need to shake hands and say “I respect you for you.” Let’s stop the Competitive players are Melee *** and Casuals are 7-year olds. If you have any questions for me please do not hesitate to ask. I can try and discuss it in a way to understand each other. I hope I did not offend anyone and I hope we all can enjoy something about the new smash!

P.S also forgive me for the bad grammar, it's 2 in the morning and I cannot sleep. lol

 

[Senario]

I have done nothing but try to be respectful to the "casuals" you refer to. I honestly don't care what game they play. Generally though I don't think I've ever seen a competitive player call a casual out for age or what game they play. I've seen a lot of so called "casual" players taking a dump on the competitive community though. And yes, casuals is in quotation marks because I honestly don't think they are real casuals as I know a lot of real casual players of smash. I don't care what they do, they don't care what I do in smash period. They don't say my opinion is wrong or anything they simply do not care for it.

I think one point that could go far is the question that "Why can you never be critical of a game or it's developer/take offense at those who do? Why must everything they do be perfect in your eyes AND everybody elses?" It is something I do not understand on the opposite side of the fence seeing as there are many places where I have been a fan of a game and disliked a new entry because it wasn't what I expected. Fire emblem Radiant Dawn and Shadow dragon were like this and Paper Mario Sticker Star and Super Paper mario were the same. As much as people dislike content that is recycled there is a reason sequels sell, because they take what made the previous games good and try to improve on them rather than completely change the formula unnecessarily. You could argue some games did change the formula such as Fire Emblem Awakening but at it's heart it is still the same fire emblem game you may have loved for previous entries with actual support conversations and interesting character development.

I appreciate the effort honestly but with as much as I've seen there is no reconciling the two groups.

 

[pizzapie7]

Boy do I love meta threads.

I care that this new game be the type of game I want to play. I care that this new game be the type of game my friends (actual casuals not these Smashboards "casuals") want to play as well, because fun experiences with friends are fun. I care that this new game be the type of game that can hold a lasting competitive scene, because fun experiences competitively are fun.

I don't give any sort of a **** about what any other party wants with Smash. And I'm not exactly sure why I should, considering that for whatever reason the feeling wouldn't be mutual. I'm going to second @ Senario 's posts about having to swallow whatever we are being forcefed around here without questioning it. The animosity received for not liking something with valid reasoning is insanely high, and it comes with petty complaints, personal attacks, and a **** ton of strawmen and lies. All because we disagree about a ****ing video game lmao.

 

[ToothiestAura]

The terms "casual" and "competitive" are part of the problem, honestly. Enforcing labels such these encourages hostilities between both parties. As they are, these terms are inadequate, inane and almost pointless. These words restrict the almost limitless types of relationships players have with Smash to only two. I understand that these distinctions were intended to make things simpler, but they have succeeded only in instilling further confusion.

The official definition of the noun "Casual:" a person who does something irregularly. As it pertains to Smash this means someone who only plays the game(s) on occasion. Though, I've seen the term used to refer to 1.) players who aren't very good at the game, 2.) players who don't use advanced techniques, 3). players who don't enter tournaments and 4.) children. These are only several of the definitions I've seen used to describe "casuals." I kept out the ruder ones.

The word "Competitive" lacks a noun form officially, so I will make due with the official definition of the adjective: having or displaying a strong desire to be more successful than others. As it pertains to Smash, this would refer to someone who really wants to win. Though many times I've seen the term reference the following: 1.) A known competitive Smash player (Hbox, Ken, etc.), 2). players who are very good at the game, 3.) players who used advanced techniques, 4.) elitists. Again, I've kept out the ruder descriptions.


As a community, we should try to move away from these terms. Not just in regards to Smash but in all of gaming (though, I suppose there the opposing force to "Casual" is generally referred to as "hardcore"). These terms fail to encompass the entirety of the Smash community. And, as in anything, there are assholes on both sides and they do not represent the views of either "side" as whole. The true problem stems from these assholes, as there are many a fine and reasonable person on both "sides," but we tend to get caught up in the harsher words we see and hear. If we move away from the terms, it will be harder for such people to bandwagon a "side" and attack the other without truly understanding either sides' reasoning.

I have identified myself as a Causal simply because I enjoy playing with items. I will now, perhaps, not identify with either side as I fall partially on both and the distinction is simply becoming more and more pointless.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

This thread's good intentions will never amount to much, unfortunately, but kudos for trying.

We don't all need to agree. Actually, if we all agreed then this forum would be a pretty pathetic source of discussion. The priority instead should be keeping level heads and maintaining a respectful environment within which intelligent discussion can prosper.

Disdain for labels aside, "competitive players" are perfectly entitled to hope that the game caters to their preferences and to have reservations and complains about Brawl and Smash 4; in the same way, "casual players" are entitled to remain optimistic about Smash 4 and prefer Brawl over Melee (I hate this sentence; forgive me for the generalisations here ). What neither party is entitled to do - and what happens all too often, not just here but everywhere that discussions are held across the internet - is attack, flame or belittle the other. Even if your argument is sound and your desires for the game are reasonable, if you present your argument with hostility then the credibility of your sound argument is diminished and you are not contributing to a healthy discussion.

There are posters here whose opinions I disagree with, but who I respect because of the maturity with which they write their posts and present their thoughts. Conversely, there are posters here who I tend to agree with but whose thoughts I struggle to respect due to the way that they present them.

Any reasonable opinion can be presented in a friendly or respectful manner and be conducive to good discussion. There's no reason for rifts to form between groups if those who represent both groups converse with the other in this manner.

 

[mario123007]

The terms "casual" and "competitive" are part of the problem, honestly. Enforcing labels such these encourages hostilities between both parties. As they are, these terms are inadequate, inane and almost pointless. These words restrict the almost limitless types of relationships players have with Smash to only two. I understand that these distinctions were intended to make things simpler, but they have succeeded only in instilling further confusion.

The official definition of the noun "Casual:" a person who does something irregularly. As it pertains to Smash this means someone who only plays the game(s) on occasion. Though, I've seen the term used to refer to 1.) players who aren't very good at the game, 2.) players who don't use advanced techniques, 3). players who don't enter tournaments and 4.) children. These are only several of the definitions I've seen used to describe "casuals." I kept out the ruder ones.

The word "Competitive" lacks a noun form officially, so I will make due with the official definition of the adjective: having or displaying a strong desire to be more successful than others. As it pertains to Smash, this would refer to someone who really wants to win. Though many times I've seen the term reference the following: 1.) A known competitive Smash player (Hbox, Ken, etc.), 2). players who are very good at the game, 3.) players who used advanced techniques, 4.) elitists. Again, I've kept out the ruder descriptions.


As a community, we should try to move away from these terms. Not just in regards to Smash but in all of gaming (though, I suppose there the opposing force to "Casual" is generally referred to as "hardcore"). These terms fail to encompass the entirety of the Smash community. And, as in anything, there are *******s on both sides and they do not represent the views of either "side" as whole. The true problem stems from these *******s, as there are many a fine and reasonable person on both "sides," but we tend to get caught up in the harsher words we see and hear. If we move away from the terms, it will be harder for such people to bandwagon a "side" and attack the other without truly understanding either sides' reasoning.

I have identified myself as a Causal simply because I enjoy playing with items. I will now, perhaps, not identify with either side as I fall partially on both and the distinction is simply becoming more and more pointless.

Casual or competitive? Being competitive doesn't means that you are aggressive, you are just a Smash pro, as a 17 year old kid who lives in Taiwan don't have much time playing video games,just look at how many forums and tournaments in the USA! American do have the time playing video games and it's Smash fans would spend hours and hours playing the new Smash Bros when it comes out, I can only play for a few minutes, go to school,keep the hype down inside me during my school time, after school, I spend couple of hours watch some Smash Bros live syream and walkthroughs.
Back to the issue like an athlete in sports, every has to be kind to each other, if a person is bad at smash we shouldn't insult him or her. Afterall, this is just a game, a game we all loved to play.

Sometimes I do get pissted with items but they are really fun in battle, as a gamer who just like Mario and Nintendo, we should put aside of the debate between casual and competitive.

 

[Tristan_win]

I feel like competitive vs casual debates are very similar to religious debates so while I can somewhat understand where casuals are coming from I am still unable to respect them as much as someone who adopts the same idea's as mine.

I stereotype badly when I meet a casual by thinking things like
"Maybe they never heard of competitive smash"
"Maybe they don't understand how people could play smash competitively"
"Maybe they don't think they could ever play on such a level"
"Maybe their friends dislike competitive smash so they just followed their small group, aka cheap argument "
"Maybe they have a bad experience with a competitive smashers"
"Maybe they dislike competitive smash because they will never be able to play on that level(disabilities)" <~This one hurts

I never start out thinking that they just don't like competitive things and I approach them thinking they just don't know any better. One of the first things I do when I play with someone who is either new to the scene or a casual is I try to introduce them to the thirst to get better. The reason why I do this is because I want to convert them, I want to make them stop being casual and become competitive players. Once I learn this isn't possible for them(this is not just limited to disabilities) or that I start to think they will never care I get bored of them and most likely wont be having as much fun anymore. I don't feel bad about this.

When smash is played on a competitive level it's just so amazing, the better you get the more you see, the more you see the more you think, the more you think the deeper the game goes. It cycles on and on and it makes you only love the game more and more. The only problem with this is once you reach a point normal casual matches wont be entertaining anymore. You will see all the flaws in your opponents play without evening trying to, you will witness how little thought they put into ever decision, every mis spaced attack, every half effort attempt to play and you will just sigh. Sometimes you might even want to yell at them and say something stupid like 'Why didn't you edgeguard me!' and they will respond "it's not honorable, that's cheap, or I don't know.." When that happens it's hard not to say something to them. Because of this when I do play with casuals I know I can't improve I personally turn off my brain, I try not to care, I try not to worry about who get's first or last... I treat them as if I was playing with a 5 year old who had never played smash before and not with someone with respect who have played the game for years upon years.

I'm sorry if this post is going to make some die hard casuals angry at me but that's my view on this subject as a somewhat lackluster player of competitive smash.

 

[mario123007]

I feel like competitive vs casual debates are very similar to religious debates so while I can somewhat understand where casuals are coming from I am still unable to respect them as much as someone who adopts the same idea's as mine.

I stereotype badly when I meet a casual by thinking things like
"Maybe they never heard of competitive smash"
"Maybe they don't understand how people could play smash competitively"
"Maybe they don't think they could ever play on such a level"
"Maybe their friends dislike competitive smash so they just followed their small group, aka cheap argument "
"Maybe they have a bad experience with a competitive smashers"
"Maybe they dislike competitive smash because they will never be able to play on that level(disabilities)" <~This one hurts

I never start out thinking that they just don't like competitive things and I approach them thinking they just don't know any better. One of the first things I do when I play with someone who is either new to the scene or a casual is I try to introduce them to the thirst to get better. The reason why I do this is because I want to convert them, I want to make them stop being casual and become competitive players. Once I learn either this isn't possible for them(this is not just limited to disabilities) or that I start to think they will never care I get bored of them and most likely wont be having as much fun anymore. I don't feel bad about this.

When smash is played on a competitive level it's just so amazing, the better you get the more you see, the more you see the more you think, the more you think the deeper the game goes. It cycles on and on and it makes you only love the game more and more. The only problem with this is once you reach a point normal casual matches wont be entertaining anymore. You will see all the flaws in your opponents play without evening trying to, you will witness how little thought they put into ever decision, every mis spaced attack, every half effort attempt to play and you will just sigh. Sometimes you might even want to yell at them and say something stupid like 'Why didn't you edgeguard me!' and they will respond "it's not honorable, that's cheap, or I don't know.." When that happens it's hard not to say something to them. Because of this when I do play with casuals I know I can't improve I personally turn off my brain, I try not to care, I try not to worry about who get's first or last... I treat them as if I was playing with a 5 year old who had never played smash before not with someone with respect who have played the game for years upon years.

I'm sorry if this post is going to make some die hard casuals angry at me but that's my view on this subject as a somewhat lackluster player of competitive smash.

No casuals will be angry if your post, and it is normal to think of a gamer who could be casual, but hey, Smash Bros is a game we all love right? Because of Smash Bros this is why we have Smashboards, an Smash Bros fan sharing website which both casual and competitive gamers can share each other's thoughts, reviews, and more. Like me I had play Smash Bros for quite a while but I join Smashboards this month. Does this mean I'm a casual Smash Bros player? Not really, it depends on your skills, but be nice to everyone competitve gamers. Be a good guy.

 

[LIQUID12A]

4 in the morning and can't sleep, doh.

Benign as the discussion is, it's like what @ TeaTwoTime said. It's impossible to make a subject like this without attracting some vastly different opinions, some more derogatory than others.
If the term "competitive casual" were a thing, then I'd describe myself as such. I can play at a competitive level, but I've never attended a single official tournament for any fighting game ever. Online tournies, no sweat(and I'm not one to place terribly high anyway, I would usually end up in the top 10 at best), but I'm unsure if that's a thing in Smash.

I otherwise find more fun with items on than not(saved by Dark Samus, lol), even if that's uncompetitive, because even if it's casual play, I find just as much excitement as competitiveness. Since I end up liking and disliking elements from both spectrums I'm simply calling myself a competitive casual.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I'm sick of this "casual vs. competitive" ****. Everyone of course will have their own personal preferences, regardless of how they play the game. Me? I prefer Brawl because of that "slower pace" that everyone talks about. I have deficiencies in fine motor skills and hand-eye coordination, but I still enjoy Smash and would like to be able to feel as though I am good at the game. Despite really liking Melee, I never hit any sort of skill with it because the controls in that game are much tighter, but I'm sure those with faster fingers and better reflexes than I have can enjoy that game at a deeper level than I can. Me? I was sort of frustrated by a perceived general inability of a character to actually complete an aerial attack in the air, as well as a perceived difficulty of dodging attacks by jumping over them due to the game's generally high falling speed. (For the record, I still hate tripping. Fortunately, I have a Riivo code that solves that problem.)

 

[Knight Dude]

I'm not that much of a competitive player. But I can appreciate what they do, and the effort it takes to do so. There's nothing wrong with playing a Smash game every once and a while just for kicks either. That can pretty much be said for any fighting game.

I do hope that I'll be a better player this time around, and attempt to understand more of the mechanics of Smash. Not looking to be a pro, just to be more decent than I am now.

Either way, does it really matter? We all really like Super Smash Bros. The only thing that really sucks is that both groups have certain negative eeeehhh....."stereotypes" surrounding them, though that's the same with any fanbase or competitive fighting group.

 

[xxEliteAlicexx]

The terms "casual" and "competitive" are part of the problem, honestly. Enforcing labels such these encourages hostilities between both parties.

This is all I had to read, and this is all that needs to be said for the rest of this thread to be honest.

 

[Shuckle89]

My say is this: I think there are no real positives or negatives to each side. I've seen every kind of person on both side. I've seen 'competitive' players bash on 'casual' players for ruining the game with items, but I've also seen 'casual players' bash on 'competitive' players for ruining the game by not using items.

There isn't even a real difference among them if casual means = with items, and competitive =without. They both have a certain option they prefer, so saying 'casual' isn't fitting, I guess. Now, this is a weird thing to say. There is more to a casual player than just playing with items, and there is more to a competive player than just playing without. Then would you say a casual player is one who allows items and doesn't care about winning? That's also a weird thing to say. There are people that like to win and play with items, just like there are people that play without items and just don't care whether they win or lose. There is just no clear definition that can split everyone in two groups. There are a lot of different groups, so why mention only two? And what's the point of mentioning those two?

That aside: the point being is: it doesn't have to do anything with the side you're on. It's about the persons themselves. You are not a better person if you do casual/competitive smash. It's about respecting each other. You don't have to agree, but you can respect their opinions.

 

[xxEliteAlicexx]

My say is this: I think there are no real positives or negatives to each side. I've seen every kind of person on both side. I've seen 'competitive' players bash on 'casual' players for ruining the game with items, but I've also seen 'casual players' bash on 'competitive' players for ruining the game by not using items.

There isn't even a real difference among them if casual means = with items, and competitive =without. They both have a certain option they prefer, so saying 'casual' isn't fitting, I guess. Now, this is a weird thing to say. There is more to a casual player than just playing with items, and there is more to a competive player than just playing without. Then would you say a casual player is one who allows items and doesn't care about winning? That's also a weird thing to say. There are people that like to win and play with items, just like there are people that play without items and just don't care whether they win or lose. There is just no clear definition that can split everyone in two groups. There are a lot of different groups, so why mention only two? And what's the point of mentioning those two?

That aside: the point being is: it doesn't have to do anything with the side you're on. It's about the persons themselves. You are not a better person if you do casual/competitive smash. It's about respecting each other. You don't have to agree, but you can respect their opinions.

This could work too...

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I have done nothing but try to be respectful to the "casuals" you refer to. I honestly don't care what game they play. Generally though I don't think I've ever seen a competitive player call a casual out for age or what game they play. I've seen a lot of so called "casual" players taking a dump on the competitive community though. And yes, casuals is in quotation marks because I honestly don't think they are real casuals as I know a lot of real casual players of smash. I don't care what they do, they don't care what I do in smash period. They don't say my opinion is wrong or anything they simply do not care for it.

I think one point that could go far is the question that "Why can you never be critical of a game or it's developer/take offense at those who do? Why must everything they do be perfect in your eyes AND everybody elses?" It is something I do not understand on the opposite side of the fence seeing as there are many places where I have been a fan of a game and disliked a new entry because it wasn't what I expected. Fire emblem Radiant Dawn and Shadow dragon were like this and Paper Mario Sticker Star and Super Paper mario were the same. As much as people dislike content that is recycled there is a reason sequels sell, because they take what made the previous games good and try to improve on them rather than completely change the formula unnecessarily. You could argue some games did change the formula such as Fire Emblem Awakening but at it's heart it is still the same fire emblem game you may have loved for previous entries with actual support conversations and interesting character development.

I appreciate the effort honestly but with as much as I've seen there is no reconciling the two groups.

I'm going to put in some honest effort to explain to you why you are misguided and why you unfortunately contribute to the "negatives" of "competitives".

There are competitive players who out-right bash casual play, but in actuality these are actually the more rare types of competitive players. The most common type of way for a competitive player to bash is under their breath, passive-aggressively, and indirectly, and most annoyingly...without knowing they are even doing it when it should be obvious.

When you say something like "The game will fail if it has x, x, and x" you are not constructing an objective statement. You are just stating your own opinion in an absolutist manner, in benefit of the worst possible result. This is called cynicism and nobody likes that one guy in the room who keeps saying "Ugh, this will never work, this sucks". In fact, most of the time everyone probably wants to punch that guy in the face and tell them to shut their mouth.

That is precisely what happens, except virtually. Seeing as you have internet anonymity, you have the freedom to express any kind of opinion, unpopular or not without having to face the social vindictive awkwardness it might bring if you were trying to tell a room full of people to their face something none of them want to hear, because you're just trying to be the doom prophet.

It's not to say that wanting the game to improve is a bad thing, hell everyone wants the game to be the best it can possibly be...but it's one thing to say what you think would make it better, it's another to say that the way it is will doom the game to make it fail. The former allows for conversation, the latter just implies you don't give a **** either way (whether you actually do or not), thus, you're going to annoy everyone who does give a **** and wants to see it succeed. I'm not saying you don't want to see it succeed, but all we have are your words. If you constantly flap your mouths about everything that is bad about the game without ever paying heed to the stuff that's good (of which there is much), that's the implication your making...that everything is bad and there is nothing of merit.

In terms of Sakurai and his ability to make mistakes and "defending" his decisions, it's really simple. Sakurai has a proven track record of significant success in game design. He created Smash Bros. He created Melee (the game you prefer), and then went and created something that caters to a completely different audience using the same damn formula. That's practically game design wizardry in itself. So do I believe he knows how to design a middle ground? You bet your ass I do. This is actually just a symptom of the former problem I layed out for you. As a result of the game not meeting your expectation you take it upon yourself to question Sakurai's integrity as a game developer, when millions and millions and millions of people have enjoyed to countless years of gameplay, esports competition, and just all around fantastic-ness around his creations. You're making a brunt, completely disregarding thought that makes an invisible, empty substitution for the amazing work he has done in the past just to contrarily make a point. A point that falls utterly flat and helpless, and in your own defense you say "Why do you have to worship Sakurai?"? Let me ask you a question...who do you think has earned the right to our ears on how to successfully develop a popular, widespread, competitive, fun game? You or him? This isn't even to say that because you are not a game designer, you can't criticize a game. If it's not fun for you, you're free to play whatever the hell damn game you want, and that's what the "casual" players want. For you to enjoy yourself playing games that suit your needs, instead of constantly ramming your "opinions" down the throats of people who don't want to hear it and making things unpleasantly awkward. Being "that guy" in the room.

In my opinion, casual players want the absolute best for you. They want you to be totally happy, but for some reason you refuse to be. You must frequently remind us that you are unhappy with a game that does not suit you. That's like going to a Basketball game and constantly telling everyone around you that you prefer Baseball. Get up, go to the baseball game, and be happy.

 

[Renji64]

Nobody cares about casual play they can chuck items to their hearts content for all i care. I don't like when they get asshurt that people don't want brawl 2.0 I don't understand how a game that is extremely similar to brawl has alot of brawl stuff carried over won't be brawl 2.0 due to changes? Competitive players are pretty cool they can enjoy both sides of the game meanwhile casuals only limit themselves and enjoy one aspect.

 

[ferioku]

Honestly, I don't agree with either side of the community, both sides seem to get defensive whenever the opposed side bashes them and yet the think it's OK to do the same thing on a daily basis! I've seen too many comments saying the same thing, all over YouTube, Red edit Smashboards, etc. I don't remember where I read this, but a casual player said that balancing the game is ruining it, It made me laugh too damn hard that someone would say something as idiotic as that. Balancing a game is one of the first things you do before publishing it, otherwise it will end up like brawl where Metaknight is the only used character in tournaments just because of his OP move sets.

Competitive players are just as bad. I always see these same comments that just pisses me off! Brawl 2.0, Slower than Brawl, no L-Canceling and Wave dashing = Fail game etc. I play melee competitive and you don't see me going around saying that smash 4 sucks just because its "different". There are many thing's we have yet to discover in these upcoming games, just wait for the damn game before making quick judgments!

 

[Shuckle89]

well, now we're heading in the wrong direction. It's about respecting each other and their opinion.

@ Renji64 Don't say things like: 'competitive players are pretty cool as they can enjoy both sides of the game while casuals only limit themselves and enjoy one aspect', because casual players take offense to that. It's not like competitive players automatically enjoy both sides, just like casuals don't limit themselves. There are competitive players that like to play without items most of the time, yet sometimes play with them... just like there are competitive players that never play with items.

There are also casual players that normally like to play with them and sometimes without. And again, why use those two groups?

@Zipzo same story here. You say he's misguided and contribute to the negative side of competitive. Yet, 'casual' players can be exactly the same. They can also be passive-aggressive. Why say that he contributes to the negative side of competitive?
As far as I can tell he mainly talked about 'Why you can never be critical of a game or it's developer/take offense at those who do'.

And that's alright. It should be possible to be critical without someone taking offense/be offensive. He never said that Sakurai fails at game design. He simply said that it should be possible to be critical. And to be honest, you can still be critical at the best designer in the world. There isn't anything wrong with being critical and you can't make the perfect game. As designer, you need critical people. Otherwise you won't improve.

Also, you said:

In my opinion, casual players want the absolute best for you. They want you to be totally happy, but for some reason you refuse to be. You must frequently remind us that you are unhappy with a game that does not suit you. That's like going to a Basketball game and constantly telling everyone around you that you prefer Baseball. Get up, go to the baseball game, and be happy.

I find this offensive. I enjoy the tournament scene. I am probably what most would call 'very competitive' as I practically never play with items. That's not to say that I think it's a bad thing to play with items. Just play however you like.
But you're saying that casual players want the absolute best for you. Well, that's just not true. Sure, there are some players like that. Some players want the best for others. That's not because they're casual or competive. It's because they're just good people.
Like I've been said before: there are all sorts of people in every group, and honestly, they're not that different.

You say: they want you to be totally happy, but for some reason you refuse to be. I find that a very blunt and offensive thing to say. They want you to be happy is something that has 0 to do with being casual, and 'refusing to be happy' is... well, I've got no word for that (my English is probably not good enough). What makes you say he refuses to be happy? Because he doesn't experience the same kind of happiness you do? Because he enjoys other aspects of the game? I really think saying 'refusing to be happy' is the complete opposite of what this thread tries to achieve here.

Sure, that metaphore you used (going to a basketball game and constantly tell everyone around you that you prefer baseball): Some people are like that, yes. Some people go to youtube and say that super smash 4 is 'slow' and not 'as good as melee'. Well, those people are the people I dislike as well. But just because there are a few of those, does not mean that competitive players are like that in general. And even if that was the case, it's offensive to say that. Even if if a stereotype is true, it's a bad thing. You don't want to be a stereotype, you want to be a unique being, not being looked at as if someone who does X and X.

Or were you just talking about the one you quoted? Because he said no such thing.




Anyway, I think that this thread can be closed. Most people here said what needed to be said. I think that this thread might eventually become exactly the opposite of what was intended and I think the poster of this thread made his point. If we can all try to respect each other instead of bashing even if we don't agree with each other, then we might make this board (and the world) a better place. I'm done ^^

 

[SS-bros14]

1. Gonna be honest, didn't read the whole OP. It was REALLY long.
2. This thread will probably get locked.
3. (Insert passionate speech about how competitive and casuals should get along here)
Ok, but seriously though, I don't know what else to say, casuals and competitives should stop arguing.
PS: Also, didn't you leave Smashboards like a month ago? Not that it's a problem, just thought you were really done with this place.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I actually started a whole article on this.

 

[laces]

Gonna be honest here. I haven't noticed any real hate from either sides, mostly assumptions of hate from both parties. I get the impression each side thinks there's some sort of crusade out for them when in actuality no one really cares that much except for a select few peeps generating the negativity. I'm probably wrong though. Personally I like both sides. If you love smash as much as I do then you're awesome.

 

[Raijinken]

A bigger divide that I've run into (aside from purely in debates on the Boards) is that most competitive* players do not desire to play with casual players. And vice versa is also true. Even when the two sides aren't attacking each other, the casual side has a hard time enjoying the game without the "fun stuff" (Items etc), and the competitive side can't enjoy a match that isn't "pure skill". So, on the odd occasion that they do try playing in each other's rulesets, the competitive players get bored playing with so many gimmicks or so many players in a FFA (that could even result in the better player losing, which bothers some), and the casuals get tired of losing most other modes without having items or stages that can work in their favor or at least keep things more interesting than just getting chained to death every stock. While both sides can respect each other, it's hard to enjoy the game together when you can't even enjoy the middle ground (for instance, items but only "legal" stages, or no items but gimmick stages. Or team battles, I've found those work decently). And when both groups have a hard time playing the game together, it makes it really hard for some people to respect the style of game that they literally cannot find enjoyment playing. It's like getting someone who hates Minecraft to admit that some people enjoy Minecraft and it's pretty great for them (or insert any popular game and reason there, including Smash compared to other fighters).

It's an issue, but it really isn't unique to Smash. It's about having a hard time having fun playing a game, when fun is subjective and not everyone values the same things.

It also comes from competitives saying Smash4 is useless if it's not competitive, which, even if they and others would enjoy the non-competitive aspects of the game, really sounds like they're being extremely elitist and bashing the entire game for not catering to their preferences. So the casuals bite back, and insist that the competitives ruin all the fun. I'll admit, I'm biased here, and that is exactly how I've perceived criticisms of competitive viability.


* I'm using both "casual" and "competitive" loosely in this post. In my group, which is what I'm basing my observations on, I'm one of two players who has even bothered going to some small local tournaments since NC's scene is basically nonexistant to my knowledge. And while many of the rest aren't tourney goers and only a few even spectate, the vast majority still prefer playing without items and on hazard-free stages. The few I know who DO prefer items are effectively unable to play with the rest for long, aside from a select few of us, myself included, who don't mind turning on some items (most, just not Starman), due to both the difference in skill, as well as a lack of desire to adjust or improve their skill. I've tried teaching the beginners how to do simple things, like teching a knockdown, or even doing anything besides flying around as Kirby and spamming Rock. They simply don't want to learn, and that's frustrating to players like me who play with an intent to get better.

 

[Shuckle89]

Gonna be honest here. I haven't noticed any real hate from either sides, mostly assumptions of hate from both parties. I get the impression each side thinks there's some sort of crusade out for them when in actuality no one really cares that much except for a select few peeps generating the negativity. I'm probably wrong though. Personally I like both sides. If you love smash as much as I do then you're awesome.

I love it more. Am I still awesome?

But yeah, I think you're partially right. There are more people assuming hate than actual hate (well, hate is a big word. But, ya know). But, there are certainly also a bunch fo people who do hate on each other for it. But it's all part of the problem.


@ Raijinken You made some valid points, but I think that 'respect' is something you can still do, even if you don't enjoy the way the other plays the game. Agreeing, however, is not possible, I think. But I don't think that's that big of a problem. As long as there are a lot of people that are 'casual' and a lot of people that are 'competitive', they don't need to play the game the same way or find a middle ground, even. Just as long as both parties know that not everyone plays the game the way they like it, and that's okay.

 

[LightningVance]

the only issue i can bring up is that "casual" players will play the game no matter what and enjoy it no matter what, but "competitive" players will point out everything wrong with it before even giving it a shot. that's the only thing that irks me on these boards.

 

[Raijinken]

@ Raijinken You made some valid points, but I think that 'respect' is something you can still do, even if you don't enjoy the way the other plays the game. Agreeing, however, is not possible, I think. But I don't think that's that big of a problem. As long as there are a lot of people that are 'casual' and a lot of people that are 'competitive', they don't need to play the game the same way or find a middle ground, even. Just as long as both parties know that not everyone plays the game the way they like it, and that's okay.

I agree that respecting is still the way to go, but it can be hard for the casuals to even get time to play their way when they're outnumbered, like those in my group are. I've got the only console with Smash on it that we use, and while I'm all for either type of play, the competitive players are more likely and more interested in playing, leaving the casuals to either watch while declining every offer to play, or just go do their own thing. Of course, part of it is likely a matter of the players themselves - some of them aren't that into the game at any level, casual or not, and thus don't really want to play much to begin with. But it still reinforces that rift - if the competitives keep getting better, the casuals just get left behind and can never really catch up. Because while there's something to be said for improving by playing people better than you, there comes a point that the gap is too great, and you really can't grasp what needs to be done to improve without having a more level environment.

 

[Evello]

I think the issue is that there is no true line between "casual" and 'competitive" players. There is a large gradient of playstyles. I would probably fall into most people's definition of a casual player, since I do not attend tournaments, frequently play in FFA's, and am unable to perform many of the AT's used in said tournaments. However I find it rather insulting that many competitive players would thusly decide that I have no desire to become better or interest in skill-based gameplay, and would lump me in with a 7 year-old kid who just heard about the game and is convinced the Falcon Punch is "h4x". I have played the SSB series for hundreds upon hundreds of hours, and have improved immensely over that time. I know this pales in comparison with the amount of time players here sink into the games practicing, but I simply do not have the time to spend thousands of hours perfecting every single game I take interest in. That does not preclude the fact that I am very much dedicated to constantly improving my play in the time I do have.

There are also many tournament-going competitive players who fail to be properly classified under the competitive-casual system. These players have loads of fun with all-items FFA matches in between more fair bouts, despite spending years honing their skill in unbiased matches. A pro golfer can still play putt-putt with his family, as it were.

Anyway, my point is this, the simple binary casual-competitive spectrum fails to differentiate between many players with vastly different interests, and titles like that should not be used to make sweeping judgements regarding a player's worth.

 

[Shuckle89]

@ Evello : and that, is my point precisely. There are no two categories everyone fits in. And even if you did fit into one, lumping you in with 7 year old kids shows very little respect. Just do what you enjoy. No categories.

@ Raijinken : I actually think casuals far outnumber the competitive players. But, that depends on the friend group.

However, declining every offer to play is just... well, can be the bad thing of both categories. I, for one, like to play without items, (somewhat) neutral stages and 1v1. But, I value friendship and all doing the same thing more important than my preferred style of play. I'd happily play with items, free for all kind of thing, if that means we can all enjoy it together. But, I guess some find it hard to find such middle ground.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Do most people consider "competitive players" to refer to "players that attends tournaments" and "casual players" to mean "players who have no interest in attending tournaments"? Just wondering. I expect it's more complex than that for most people, but it'd be good to get an idea of what people see as being the one key difference between "competitive players" and "casual players".
As has been said, these two labels are not broad enough to cover all types of Smash players and this typically results in people getting offended for being bundled in with a group they don't really identify with. I have no interest in attending tournaments and am not good enough at Smash to do so even if I wanted to, but I almost exclusively play without items on neutral stages, I frequently watch tournaments of all Smash games and I keep up to date with a competitive Smash Bros forum. What would that make me?

 

[NoiseHERO]

Wow I'm too casual at life period to read all this, but through quick skimming someone said something about labels, I'm gonna agree with that without reading their whole post.

TL;DR for whole thread: ignorance and prejudice isn't just for racism, but it's at least mostly just a problem caused by stupid or close minded people period, thus making labeling, dividing groups and forum firefights a common eyesore.

I bet, you could have the opinion of a "casual player", then say "filthy casuals" at the end of your wall of text, and you'll get into an internet argument on ANY online forum, Or vice-versa.

 

[Raijinken]

@ Raijinken : I actually think casuals far outnumber the competitive players. But, that depends on the friend group.

However, declining every offer to play is just... well, can be the bad thing of both categories. I, for one, like to play without items, (somewhat) neutral stages and 1v1. But, I value friendship and all doing the same thing more important than my preferred style of play. I'd happily play with items, free for all kind of thing, if that means we can all enjoy it together. But, I guess some find it hard to find such middle ground.

Casuals definitely outnumber the competitives, but when compared to, say, Pokemon, I would say Smash has far fewer casual fans (who seek to play the game frequently, beat it, whatever). That is to say, I know many Pokemon fans who just play Pokemon when they're bored, but I don't know any Smash fans who just play Smash when they're bored, who aren't at least above your average casual player in skill. The dominant playstyle is basically determined by the group, so if your group lacks standard casuals, it can be hard to get the others to play that way for an extended period of time. But most of my casual friends I guess are just daunted by the rest - they don't really want to play against us, even with items, because they know the skill difference and thus figure that any victory of theirs was probably a better play giving it away.

Do most people consider "competitive players" to refer to "players that attends tournaments" and "casual players" to mean "players who have no interest in attending tournaments"? Just wondering. I expect it's more complex than that for most people, but it'd be good to get an idea of what people see as being the one key difference between "competitive players" and "casual players".
As has been said, these two labels are not broad enough to cover all types of Smash players and this typically results in people getting offended for being bundled in with a group they don't really identify with. I have no interest in attending tournaments and am not good enough at Smash to do so even if I wanted to, but I almost exclusively play without items on neutral stages, I frequently watch tournaments of all Smash games and I keep up to date with a competitive Smash Bros forum. What would that make me?

For a while, once I realized I wasn't actually good enough to be competitive (lived out in the middle of nowhere, NC before, so didn't really have any proof otherwise til then), I decided that I was in "the higher skill end of casual play". It's a nice label, because it implies a degree of ability and interest and dedication in the game beyond what a purely casual player normally has, but also points out that such players are not professional, tournament-ready, competing players. A bit of a mouthful, though. May need to come up with a shorter version.

 

[dimensionsword64]

I consider myself halfway in the middle of casual and competitive. I thrive to get better and improve, and be good at the game, but I don't attend tournaments or anything, and I actually prefer Brawl's slower gameplay. It's because of us dividing the community into casual and competitive that I have to pick one to label myself as. Why do we have to separate people into two black and white categories? Why can't we just be who we are, instead of being forced into a certain category?

 

[LIQUID12A]

I actually started a whole article on this.

Curse you addicting tvtropes :|

 

[Superyoshiom]

So I have been surfing through various Causal vs Competitive arguments and if there is one thing that I noticed on both sides what a lack of respect. Now before I begin anything this thread is not a which side is better. I personally want to look at the positives and negatives of both sides so that everyone can come together as one. Before anyone asks, I play both Casual and Competitively so I believe I can understand the middle ground.

Let’s be honest here, We want to be like a family. In a “perfect” family, everyone should be respected. Now in reality that is not possible sometimes. But at least in our community we can be respectful of the opinions of others. Sometimes we tend to get a little self-centered and say some rather hurtful or stupid commented to one another. I won’t hide the fact, I have done this as well as troll in a childish way. I think the first step to fixing the problems is to look at the positives/negatives of both sides.

Competitive players:

*Passionate

*Smart (Smash tech)

*Aggressive

*Protective of each other


Casual Players:

*Passionate

*Protective of each other

*Enjoys the game as a whole

*Easy to play with

I could list more even some of the same for both groups but thats not my point. Both groups are passionate and protective. I find this as a way that connects both the groups together to find that middle ground. We all have our own idea of what smash is to us but we can not let our opinions hurt others. (Of course this is the internet, someone is always going to get hurt) But casuals and competitive players are much alike despite what players say. the players just have different ideals.

If I can relate the battle between the two groups to a subject, it would be music. Take for example Rap Vs. Other Genres. Some would say Rap is not real music due to lyrics, formation, and talent. Although I personally do not care for Rap, It is still music and respect it in that sense as well as respecting my pals who love Rap. Casuals are still SSB players as well as Competitive players. We all play differently.

Let’s talk about understanding each other. For example, Competitive plays love melee. Melee is regarded as one of the best Smash games in the series as we all know. If players like that game more than the others, so be it! Casuals must understand this though, Not every game that comes out should be liked! That being said, Brawl is loved by a lot of Casuals...or at least from where I come from. Competitive players should understand that this is not melee and will never be melee and should not get upset over people liking Brawl. One thing that bothers me is if Smash 4 will be Brawl 2.0 or Melee 2.0...Let’s be real here, it will definitely not be Melee 2.0, but it will NOT be Brawl 2.0 either. In fact, it will be Smash 4! Casuals should not tease competitive players for wanting a melee type of game style. It’s something that made them very happy and grew on them. I understand what it’s like to see something passionate go away. On the flip side, don’t call out casuals or competitive players who like how the game plays now.

The point I am trying to make here is that both groups need to shake hands and say “I respect you for you.” Let’s stop the Competitive players are Melee *** and Casuals are 7-year olds. If you have any questions for me please do not hesitate to ask. I can try and discuss it in a way to understand each other. I hope I did not offend anyone and I hope we all can enjoy something about the new smash!

P.S also forgive me for the bad grammar, it's 2 in the morning and I cannot sleep. lol

Casual players have a bad opinion of competitive players and think of them as no lives. But that's just from my experience.

 

[CroonerMike]

I will be reading through all the comments a bit later today and I'll do another write up. I'm glad to see many of your responses of how you feel.

 

[HeavyLobster]

For a while, once I realized I wasn't actually good enough to be competitive (lived out in the middle of nowhere, NC before, so didn't really have any proof otherwise til then), I decided that I was in "the higher skill end of casual play". It's a nice label, because it implies a degree of ability and interest and dedication in the game beyond what a purely casual player normally has, but also points out that such players are not professional, tournament-ready, competing players. A bit of a mouthful, though. May need to come up with a shorter version.

I think this is a good description of a lot of Smashboards "casuals," people interested in competitive play but aren't tourney-caliber/are unable to go to tourneys and regularly play good opponents. Of course, there are still people here who are truly uninterested in competitive play but happen to like the community better than GameFAQs or Miiverse. Either way, the main division in the community is the whole Melee vs. Brawl split, which isn't really as simple as "Melee competitive, Brawl casual" even though people on both sides seem to want to further that narrative.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's like this. You have "casuals" wanting to call the shots with this and that when they nothing about it. You can see this in how character discussion rarely gets into gameplay potential. If it does, the conversation isn't very deep or someone handwaves it saying anyone can be unique.

Competitive players have a different set of priorities.

 

[laces]

I love it more. Am I still awesome?

You're more awesome.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

@ CroonerMike I thought you left.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Lol, how can you not expect immature fights to break out when most of the community is 15 or younger. This isn't a bad thing, its great that this community lets skill determine their opinion of someone rather than age. I mean, alot of the competitive pros became pros before they were adults. CPU , Mew2King, Wizzrobe, Zero. This is a game dominated by kids, let kids be kids. Getting in an argument with a kid just makes you look bad.

 

[Shuckle89]

Lol, how can you not expect immature fights to break out when most of the community is 15 or younger. This isn't a bad thing, its great that this community lets skill determine their opinion of someone rather than age. I mean, alot of the competitive pros became pros before they were adults. CPU , Mew2King, Wizzrobe, Zero. This is a game dominated by kids, let kids be kids. Getting in an argument with a kid just makes you look bad.

I'm not sure the game is dominated by kids. I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of kids here that are good (I noticed it myself, when I got beaten by 15 year old at a tourney), but most of them were adults ~23

But, you kind of have a point there. However, just because a lot of the people are younger than 15, does not mean you can't behave in a mature way. I've seen quite a few here who don't act like their age (in a positive way). In my opinion, if you can't behave in a way that respects others and can make a point without trying to insult others, you shouldn't be on this board.