Sycorax
Smash Ace
I was watching some recent matches of PewPewU vs. Shroomed at Bay Area Monthlies #8 and noticed something. One standard edgeguard flowchart against Shrek is to grab the ledge, force her to land on stage with tons of lag, and repeatedly hit her off until she can't recover. For the many times PewPewU was doing this in their 3 sets, he opted for an fsmash (usually untippered). I was wondering whether this is optimal (because Marth's sour fsmash is honestly pretty weak :/) so I looked at the hitbubble data for a few of Marth's options to hit Shrek back off stage. One thing I was particularly interested in was move staling since PewPewU repeatedly used fsmash. Here's what I found.
Fsmash is probably never the best option. Of course, every situation you find yourself in requires unique critical analysis, but I think there is usually a better option than fsmash. This option would be Marth's UpB. It ejects at the same angle as his fsmash, 44 degrees, but it has more base knockback. Note: I'm comparing UpB and sourspot fsmash; the tipper is obviously always stronger. Here's the data.
+---------------+-----+-------+----+-----+
|.... Move .....| Dmg | Angle | BK | KG..|
+---------------+-----+-------+----+-----+
| Fsmash (sour) |. 14 |.. 361 | 60 |. 70 |
| UpB (ground) .|. 13 |.. 361 | 80 |. 70 |
| Fsmash (tip) .|. 20 |.. 361 | 80 |. 70 |
| Dsmash (tip) .|. 16 |... 70 | 70 | 100 |
+---------------+-----+-------+----+-----+
Even though the fsmash does 1 more damage, the higher base knockback on UpB will more than make up for the difference in damage. Unstale UpB always does more knockback than fsmash(sour).
Now, since we are using a move over and over, what happens when we take into account move staling? Maybe if we use UpB too much, the reduced damage will make the knockback weaker than fsmash(sour). Maybe Marths should alternate their usage of fsmash and UpB. I've always heard that Melee's staling mechanic is irrelevant, but I never understood until now LOL. It's so irrelevant that if you use UpB six times in a row, the higher base knockback will overpower the reduction in damage and the final knockback from UpB will be greater still than fsmash(sour). I don't know that, if used the full 9 times, UpB will be weaker or stronger than fsmash(sour), but you probably won't use it more than six times, maybe, idk.
One thing to note about UpB: it has a lot more lag on it than fsmash. At low death percents (maybe like below 90% idk figure it out), Shrek might be able to recover to ledge before you can grab it.
Conclusion: Use UpB to knock Shrek back off stage. Of course there are always other options. If you can hit her with tipper fsmash, that's always stronger (but harder to hit with :/). Tipper dsmash is even harder to hit with, but it's just about as strong as (if not stronger than) Fox's usmash so that's cool (plus if they are DI'ing for fsmash/upb survival, they will die sooner from the tipper dsmash). You could double dip dair. You could ken combo. You could taunt, but I don't suggest that unless you're up by like 20 stocks
Fsmash is probably never the best option. Of course, every situation you find yourself in requires unique critical analysis, but I think there is usually a better option than fsmash. This option would be Marth's UpB. It ejects at the same angle as his fsmash, 44 degrees, but it has more base knockback. Note: I'm comparing UpB and sourspot fsmash; the tipper is obviously always stronger. Here's the data.
+---------------+-----+-------+----+-----+
|.... Move .....| Dmg | Angle | BK | KG..|
+---------------+-----+-------+----+-----+
| Fsmash (sour) |. 14 |.. 361 | 60 |. 70 |
| UpB (ground) .|. 13 |.. 361 | 80 |. 70 |
| Fsmash (tip) .|. 20 |.. 361 | 80 |. 70 |
| Dsmash (tip) .|. 16 |... 70 | 70 | 100 |
+---------------+-----+-------+----+-----+
Even though the fsmash does 1 more damage, the higher base knockback on UpB will more than make up for the difference in damage. Unstale UpB always does more knockback than fsmash(sour).
Now, since we are using a move over and over, what happens when we take into account move staling? Maybe if we use UpB too much, the reduced damage will make the knockback weaker than fsmash(sour). Maybe Marths should alternate their usage of fsmash and UpB. I've always heard that Melee's staling mechanic is irrelevant, but I never understood until now LOL. It's so irrelevant that if you use UpB six times in a row, the higher base knockback will overpower the reduction in damage and the final knockback from UpB will be greater still than fsmash(sour). I don't know that, if used the full 9 times, UpB will be weaker or stronger than fsmash(sour), but you probably won't use it more than six times, maybe, idk.
One thing to note about UpB: it has a lot more lag on it than fsmash. At low death percents (maybe like below 90% idk figure it out), Shrek might be able to recover to ledge before you can grab it.
Conclusion: Use UpB to knock Shrek back off stage. Of course there are always other options. If you can hit her with tipper fsmash, that's always stronger (but harder to hit with :/). Tipper dsmash is even harder to hit with, but it's just about as strong as (if not stronger than) Fox's usmash so that's cool (plus if they are DI'ing for fsmash/upb survival, they will die sooner from the tipper dsmash). You could double dip dair. You could ken combo. You could taunt, but I don't suggest that unless you're up by like 20 stocks
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