Redesigning/Rebalancing Olimar

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Aug 9, 2015
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#1
Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads

:ultmario: Mario

:ultdk: Donkey Kong

:ultkirby: Kirby

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler
A character near and dear to me ever since I discovered him in Brawl and proceeded to buy both Pikmin 1 and 2 and fell in love. He deserves as much love in Ultimate as he got in Brawl. I think I can deliver. So for the few who actually like this series as well as the ones showing up only now, let me give my strange ideas on how to redesign/rebalance the beloved used car salesman, Captain Olimar!

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Like with all of my "rebalancing" exercises, I will showcase what I believe the character's purposes should be overall, as well as the strengths and weaknesses they should have.

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Olimar :ultolimar:

Purpose: Multipurpose zoner, comboer, and grappler/Slow/Easy to KO

Strengths should be:

Many disjoints
Dangerous grabs
Long range kill moves
Good combo potential
High damage racking ability
Great frame data

Weaknesses should be:

Easy to juggle
Easy to KO
Slow ground and aerial movement
Poor approach
Reliant on resource management for useful attributes

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As always, the general statistics here are mostly for how Olimar fairs comparatively to the rest of the cast and involve some universal changes.

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General Statistics: :ultolimar:

  • Feather weight
    • (Note that weight difference should be much tighter overall, so Olimar will definitely get a weight buff)
  • Low walk speed
  • Low run speed
    • (Walk speed and run speed would be more compacted for the slowest and fastest characters)
  • Very low horizontal airspeed
  • Standardized first jump
    • (All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)
  • Average double jump height
    • (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Olimar's new jump height would be about 65% of his current double jump height in Smash 4)
  • Very low fall speed
    • (Fall speed across the board should be increased, so Olimar's would too)
  • Very low fast fall speed
  • Wall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
  • Average roll distance
    • (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance)
  • Average shield health
    • (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Olimar's would have 100)
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So in terms of stats, not much changes here other than universal stuff like lowered double jump, a wall jump, increased fall speed if only barely, and a weight buff, if only barely. Nothing much to say about Olimar in terms of stats. He's slow on both the air and ground, which would usually hurt his neutral game if he didn't have potent projectiles and disjoints, however, they make his disadvantage state shaky at best, and his feather weight status makes him susceptible to early KO's, giving him a need for more preventative measures. Luckily, he can deliver on that front, and I think with the few changes I give him, he'll have more than just zoning to look forward to.

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:GCLT::GCB: Shield-B:

  • Remapped move: Pikmin Pluck: Forcefully plucks a Pikmin out of the ground. Can can have up to three Pikmin active at once. Cannot be used at all in the air or when three Pikmin are active. Will pluck in a specific order of Pikmin: Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Purple, Rock, then back to Red
    • Pikmin being plucked will fall from above Olimar, rather than in an arc behind him
      • This means they can no longer fall of edges
    • Pikmin damage stats:
      • Red: 20% extra damage on normal attacks and smash attacks, 30% reduced damage on throws, 10% extra damage on specials
      • Yellow: 25% extra hitstun, 15% extra range on attacks, 15% reduced damage on normal attacks
      • Blue: 60% extra damage on throws, 25% reduced damage on smash attacks
      • White: 100% extra damage on specials, 20% reduced damage on attacks, 20% reduced damage on smash attacks
      • Purple: 40% extra damage on normal attacks, 40% extra damage on smash attacks, 30% extra damage on specials, 20% reduced base knockback
      • Rock: 50% reduced damage on throws, 15% extra base knockback, 15% extra knockback growth, 20% reduced damage on specials
    • Pikmin general stats:
      • Red: 8.5% health, 100% movespeed, immune to fire and explosion, above average priority
      • Yellow: 8.5% health, 100% movespeed, immune to electricity, low priority
      • Blue: 9.5% health, 85% movespeed, immune to water and knockback from water, average priority
      • White: 7% health, 140% movespeed, immune to poison, darkness, and magic, as well as damage over time from any source, low priority
      • Purple: 13% health, 70% movespeed, no immunity, average priority
      • Rock: 8.5% health, 70% movespeed, consistent super armor when not in use, transcendent priority when used
      • (Note: Olimar's run moves at 80% Pikmin movespeed)
      • (Note: Pikmin will gain 20% damage resistance when next to Olimar)
  • Extremely low startup
  • Extremely low endlag

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So we're going out of order here due to Olimar's unique circumstances as a fighter centering around his Pikmin. We're also going to take notes from the Inklings and give a Shield-B move for Pikmin Pluck, since it feels more like a complimentary skill than an actual move on its own.

So first off, non Pikmin related changes I would make is having this move be nearly instant in execution, to the point where plucking three Pikmin in a row would take about 0.25 seconds. Another bigger thing that would change is that when the Pikmin are plucked, they would fall directly where Olimar is instead of behind him, making them no longer prone to self-destructing should Olimar pluck too close to the edge. This is mostly for convenience. Lastly, Pikmin Pluck will not do an animation at all if you have exceeded three Pikmin or you are airborne, again for convenience.

As for Pikmin specific stuff, the biggest change is the addition of Rock Pikmin, and wow they are something. But first, some smaller changes. I slightly increased the health of the weaker Pikmin and lowered the health of the stronger Pikmin. However, there is a new addition to their health. If they are next to Olimar or being used by him in an attack for example, they will take 20% less damage, overall buffing their health, at least for the weaker ones, while the stronger ones are still about the same. Another small thing is that Pikmin would now have true priority and would fit within the boundaries of them, which changes their purposes a little bit. Last thing to note is that Pikmin would run faster overall and only Purples and Rocks would be outran by Olimar, but just barely.

Now for specific changes, I would keep immunities, in order to give some specific strategies for certain matchups as needed. Some additions are Whites being immune to magic and Blues being immune to knockback from water, giving them an edge against Mario, Greninja, and Squirtle. In addition, despite not being immune to fire attacks, Whites will be immune to damage over time like from some of Roy's moves (if you say my thread on him already), giving them some extra survivability, if only a little.

As for Rock Pikmin, you can clearly see from their higher than average knockback stats, as well as super armor, that they are meant to be more defensive wall style tools for Olimar, giving him some situational rock solid defense (haha) as well as a good killing option. However, they have the sad combination of being as slow as Purple Pikmin, with only the health of Reds and Yellows, making them extremely fragile.

Another big change is that Yellow Pikmin give 25% more hitstun, but 15% less damage on normal attacks, which makes their purpose more akin to comboing moves. Some smaller changes include Blues being weaker on only smashes and being slightly slower, Whites having normal hitstun, Purples having reduced base knockback, making them a bit more unsafe to use early on, and Reds having higher priority than Purples, giving both damage based Pikmin some differences in usage.

Overall, Pikmin are a bit tankier, faster, and don't have weird quirks about Pikmin Pluck. All while freeing up a move slot for something else. Pretty good if you ask me.

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:GCD::GCB:Down-B:

  • Pikmin Order: Will blow his Whistle very quickly, changing the behavior of the Pikmin depending on what they are doing. Can cancel any other move into Pikmin Order slightly faster than transitioning into other moves, changing its properties slightly
    • Effects to Pikmin when not cancelled from an attack:
      • Will make the next Pikmin to be used the second one in line
      • Will call rogue Pikmin that are not in freefall
      • Will call Pikmin that are currently attacking a target
    • Effects to Pikmin when cancelled from an attack:
      • Will make the next Pikmin to be used the one that was last used
      • Will call rogue Pikmin that are not in freefall
      • Will call Pikmin that are currently attacking a target
  • Very low startup
  • Very low endlag

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The reason this is before even the normal moves in this case is because it can be used after literally any move and will transition near instantly from these moves. This will definitely require some rebalancing to make sure higher endlag moves aren't completely covered by this move, but most of Olimar's other moves have pretty low endlag anyway, so it won't be too much of a problem.

However, the big difference is the ability to use the same Pikmin right after, which can lead to some interesting combinations of attacks, especially with Yellow Pikmin having more hitstun or Rock Pikmin being more about knocking back and defense, or White Pikmin having more immunities to pierce through, etc.

The real point of this is to both give some very quick strategizing on the Olimar player's part in terms of comboing with their Pikmin mid combo, as well as just having more options available to them, since they are no longer forced into the next Pikmin in line for their offense.

Two notes on this mechanic: there are a few exceptions, mostly from non-attacks like Pikmin Pluck, Winged Pikmin, and also Pikmin Order itself (meaning if you Pikmin Order twice in a row after an attack, it will be like doing it once in neutral), and there is no longer super armor on the startup. Seems pretty bad, but honestly, I feel the super armor was more tacked on than anything else, and Olimar doesn't really need it.

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:GCA::GCA::GCA: Jab:

  • New sequence: Quick one-two punch combo with Rocket Fist, followed by a sideways swing with the first Pikmin in the lineup. Third attack will still deal minor damage and knockback if Olimar has no Pikmin
    • This means Jab 3 is a new move
  • Low shield damage on all hits
  • All jabs are barely unsafe on shield
  • All jabs link into each other
  • Extremely low startup on all jabs
  • Low endlag on Jabs 1 and 2
  • High endlag on Jab 3
  • Knockback on Jab 3 is upwards at 60 degrees
  • Base knockback on Jab 3 is very low to allow for combos and followups
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless swing: 0.5%
    • Jab 1: 1.6%
    • Jab 2: 2.8%
    • Jab 3 Base: 4.0%
    • Red Pikmin: 4.8%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 3.4%
    • White Pikmin: 3.2%
    • Purple Pikmin: 5.6%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Jab 3 Base: 275%
    • Red Pikmin: 250%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 290%
    • White Pikmin: 300%
    • Purple Pikmin: 230%
    • Rock Pikmin: 245%

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First thing to talk about with Olimar is the fact that all of his attacks that involve Pikmin will have a hitbox now should he not have any available. They will all deal 0.5% damage and all have a set knockback that doesn't go far, as well as have only average priority with ridiculously low range, but the point of it is that it makes sure Olimar is not helpless without Pikmin.

Because of this addition, I've decided to use his Pikmin in many more of his moves as you will see soon, starting with this added third attack swinging the first Pikmin in line. In terms of utility, this doesn't do too much, however, the higher hitstun on the Yellow Pikmin may start some combos while the Rock Pikmin's transcendent priority will definitely keep people in their shield.

This third attack has high endlag, which is a blessing and a curse. Despite it being slightly unsafe on shield, meaning on shield neither Olimar nor the opponent can really followup, making it a good way to get back into neutral or start mindgames, it is susceptible to perfect shield. The upside comes with Pikmin Order. Due to the endlag, cancelling into Pikmin Order will cause about the same amount of lag either way, making Olimar's shield pressure a bit more dynamic since he can pressure with better smashes with higher priority to defend like Rocks and Reds, or potentially use the same Purple Pikmin with higher than average shield damage to threaten a kill move.

Rather complicated for a jab, but that's Olimar for you. :p

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:GCR::GCA: FTilt:

  • A windup punch from Rocket Fist
  • Average priority
  • Average shield damage
  • Safe on shield
  • Above average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Knocks back shielded opponents
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers: 11.5%
  • Approximate kill time: 170%

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Olimar's first Pikminless move in this new moveset idea I have. This move is mostly for anti-approach and spacing, as well as potential tech chases at mid percents due to the Sakurai angle. It also is a good shield poke and one of Olimar's few shield pokes that give him complete advantage when hitting a shield. It can be whiff punished quite well though, since its endlag is high.However, it does have quite a bit of kill power at times of desperation. Overall a simple move mostly used for shield pressure and spacing with a niche of catching crossups due to its long startup.

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:GCU::GCA: UTilt:

  • Does a hopping ice skating style twirl. Hits 7 times
    • Is able to be reversed on startup
  • Average priority
  • Very low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Knockback is in front of Olimar at 30 degrees
  • Base knockback very low to allow for combos
  • Very low shield damage
  • Safe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Multihit: 0.6% * 6
    • Final hit: 4.0%
    • Total: 7.6%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit: 320%

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Overall, the same move in the fact it has the same damage, frame data, and shield damage. However, it is definitively safe on shield and it has a new knockback angle as well as the ability to be reversed. These cool mechanics combined allows for mindgame potential with trying to stop Olimar's combos with DI by not making it apparent which way Olimar will knock them away from him. I think it's self-explanatory, but I hope it's a cool enough thought.

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:GCD::GCA: DTilt:

  • Slides along the ground. Scoots forward while doing so
  • Lingering hitbox
  • Knockback is upwards at 80 degrees
  • Base knockback is very low to allow for combos
  • Below average priority
  • Low shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers: 6.0%
  • Approximate kill time: 300%

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I pretty much wouldn't change this move. Good anti-approach, combo starter, combo move, shield pressure, etc. It's perfectly fine. That is all lol.

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:GCR::GCR::GCA: Dash Attack:

  • New move: Olimar holds the first Pikmin in the lineup and does a cartwheel with the Pikmin in tow throughout. Can destroy projectiles throughout the move only if Pikmin is present. Can do damage and knockback even without Pikmin. Has an early and late hitbox on the Pikmin, as well as an early and late hitbox on the body
    • (Projectile destruction is a universal aspect of all dash attacks)
    • Pikmin will tank the projectile damage if they are present
  • Very low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Knockback on both early hitboxes is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Knockback on both late hitboxes is upwards at 60 degrees
  • Low shield damage on all hitboxes
  • Barely unsafe on shield for early hitboxes
  • Unsafe on shield for late hitboxes
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless: 0.5%
    • Body (early): 6.0%
    • Body (late): 4.0%
    • Pikmin base (early): 7.5%
      • Red Pikmin: 9.0%
      • Yellow Pikmin: 6.4%
      • White Pikmin: 6.0%
      • Purple Pikmin: 10.5%
    • Pikmin base (late): 5.0%
      • Red Pikmin: 6.0%
      • Yellow Pikmin: 4.2%
      • White Pikmin: 4.0%
      • Purple Pikmin: 7.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Body (early): 180%
    • Body (late): 280%
    • Pikmin base (early): 155%
      • Red Pikmin: 140%
      • Yellow Pikmin: 170%
      • White Pikmin: 175%
      • Purple Pikmin: 125%
      • Rock Pikmin: 135%
    • Pikmin base (late): 200%
      • Red Pikmin: 180%
      • Yellow Pikmin: 215%
      • White Pikmin: 220%
      • Purple Pikmin: 160%
      • Rock Pikmin: 175%

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Solidifying Olimar's poor approach, this dash attack has the universal projectile destruction based around the Pikmin being present. This means the only way to get this gift is to sacrifice Pikmin health. However, due to immunities, this can still be used well enough. Not only that, it is unsafe on shield on the late hitboxes, which is unusual for the dash attacks I've gone through. This means this move will mostly be used for the early hitbox. However, the early hitbox has a worse combo angle, but a much better killing angle, and that's the good thing about this move.

It actually has respectable kill potential, as well as combo potential if you hit the late hitboxes somehow. This makes this a weird hybrid of read based combo starter and quick OOS kill option with the right Pikmin, if only later on.

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:GCCR: FSmash:

  • Commands the first Pikmin in the lineup to do a corkscrew tackle in front of Olimar. Has three hitboxes; an early sweetspot, clean hit, and sourspot near the end. Has different distances depending on the Pikmin used. Command gesture will deal slight damage and knockback if a Pikmin is not present. Can command Pikmin off edges, allowing active hitboxes off edges
    • Pikmin has super armor while charging and cannot die until hitbox of this move ends
    • Tackle distances:
      • Red: Average
      • Yellow: Above average
      • Blue: Slightly below average
      • White: High
      • Purple: Low
      • Rock: Below average
  • Average startup
  • Low endlag
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle for all Pikmin and all hitboxes
  • Very low shield damage
    • Command without Pikmin does no shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield both with Pikmin and without
  • Approximate damage numbers (Early / Clean / Late):
    • Command with Pikmin: 0.5%
    • Base damage: 12.0%-16.8% / 10.0%-14.0% / 8.0%-11.2%
    • Red Pikmin: 14.4%-20.2% / 12.0%-16.8% / 9.6%-13.4%
    • Blue Pikmin: 9.0%-12.6% / 7.5%-10.5% / 6.0%-8.4%
    • White Pikmin: 9.6%-13.4% / 8.0%-11.2% / 6.4%-9.0%
    • Purple Pikmin: 16.8%-23.5% / 14.0%-19.6% / 11.2%-15.7%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Base: 140%-120% / 150%-130% / 180%-160%
    • Red Pikmin: 120%-100% / 125%-105% / 160%-140%
    • Blue Pikmin: 150%-130% / 160%-140% / 185%-165%
    • White Pikmin: 145%-125% / 155%-135% / 185%-165%
    • Purple Pikmin: 105%-85% / 110%-90% / 140%-120%
    • Rock Pikmin: 120%-100% / 125%-105% / 160%-140%

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A lot of numbers because of the recalculations of the Pikmin, but overall, the same exact move. However, it would definitely deal a lot less shield damage in order to give Olimar a pressuring weakness should he not use his grabs. In return, this move can't really be fully punished by an opponent both on whiff and on shield hit, making it a relatively safe move to just throw out once in a while. Just remember your Pikmin is very vulnerable when you do. It also would have less kill potential overall, except with Purples where it is about the same.

The addition of the super armor on charge is a bit complicated, especially with the addition of Rock Pikmin. The idea is that Pikmin simply aren't allowed to die or even move while in a charge, taking away the strange "zombie Pikmin" glitch/bug/whatever. However, because priority is now a thing on them, they can still stuff out other moves if they have higher priority AND even if that move kills them, it's just the move itself will still technically come out. So the idea is that if the Pikmin is beaten out, the move does nothing and the Pikmin takes damage and can die after the full animation is done.

However, the better part is if the Pikmin beats out the move, which is where Rock Pikmin come in. Because they always have transcendent priority, they will still take the damage, but the move will come out anyway, so even if they die to the opponent's move, the attack will not be stopped. This is how it works for all moments where the Pikmin has the higher priority, I just used Rock Pikmin because it's guaranteed. This is also why despite them getting super armor like Rock Pikmin, Rock Pikmin will still be the best Pikmin for trading blows, with the second place being Reds.

So other than a few nuances here and there, this move will be used pretty much how it always has.

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:GCCU: USmash:

  • Commands the first Pikmin in the lineup to do an airborne cartwheeling tackle above Olimar. Has different heights depending on Pikmin used. Has an early and late hitbox. Command without Pikmin will deal slight damage and knockback
    • Has an extremely lingering hitbox
    • Has blind spots on both sides of Olimar
    • Pikmin has super armor while charging and cannot die until hitbox of this move ends
    • Jump heights:
      • Red: Average
      • Yellow: High
      • Blue: Average
      • White: Above average
      • Purple: Below average
      • Rock: Low
  • Below average startup
  • Average endlag
  • Barely safe on shield
  • Average shield damage
  • Knockback is upwards at 85 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers: (Early / Late)
    • Base: 12.0%-16.8% / 10.0%-14.0%
    • Red Pikmin: 14.4%-20.2% / 12.0%-16.8%
    • Blue Pikmin: 9.0%-12.6% / 7.5%-10.5%
    • White Pikmin: 9.6%-13.4% / 8.0%-11.2%
    • Purple Pikmin: 16.8%-23.5% / 14.0%-19.6%
  • Approximate kill times: (Early / Late)
    • Base: 135%-115% / 170%-150%
    • Red Pikmin: 115%-95% / 150%-130%
    • Blue Pikmin: 160%-140% / 200%-220%
    • White Pikmin: 150%-130% / 195%-215%
    • Purple Pikmin: 100%-80% / 140%-120%
    • Rock Pikmin: 115%-95% / 145%-125%

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Definitely Olimar's least dependable smash attack, but it is fantastic against landing opponents and platforms above due to the lingering hitbox even outlasting airdodges and spotdodges. It does have blind spots and the highest amount of endlag of his smash attacks, but it's also the safest on shield, making it actually a good offensive smash, especially against jumping opponents after they are pressured in shield by Olimar. Lastly, it kills very easily for a vertical kill move, which amplifies its offensive usage even more.

Other than these minor changes, the overall use, like FSmash, is intact.

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:GCCD: DSmash:

  • Commands the first and second Pikmin in the lineup to tackle on either side of him. First Pikmin will be in front of Olimar and the second will be behind him. Has different distances depending on the PIkmin used. Has an early and late hitbox. Command without Pikmin will deal slight damage and knockback
    • The next Pikmin to be used will be the third one in the lineup by default
    • Pikmin has super armor while charging and cannot die until hitbox of this move ends
    • Tackle distances:
      • Red: Average
      • Yellow: Above average
      • Blue: Slightly below average
      • White: High
      • Purple: Low
      • Rock: Below average
  • Low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Very low shield damage
    • Command without Pikmin
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Knockback is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers (Sweetspot / Sourspot):
    • Command without Pikmin: 0.5%
    • Base: 10.5%-14.7% / 8.0%-11.2%
    • Red Pikmin: 12.6%-17.6% / 9.6%-13.4%
    • Blue Pikmin: 7.9%-11.0% / 6.0%-8.4%
    • White Pikmin: 8.4%-11.8% / 6.4%-9.0%
    • Purple Pikmin: 14.7%-20.6% / 11.2%-15.7%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Base: 155%-135% / 160%-140%
    • Red Pikmin: 135%-115% / 140%-120%
    • Blue Pikmin: 180%-200% / 185%-205%
    • White Pikmin: 170%-190% / 175%-195%
    • Purple Pikmin: 125%-105% / 130%-110%
    • Rock Pikmin: 135%-115% / 140%-120%

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Like Forward Smash, the functionality of this move is pretty much the same. However, with the inclusion of Rock Pikmin, this gives a nice anti-approach option with the transcendent priority. In addition, the Purple Pikmin have the same duration as the other Pikmin now in terms of hitbox. They still barely go anywhere, but now there's some consistency.

The real cool addition is the Pikmin Order transition allowing some awesome and dynamic Pikmin switch ability, especially considering how quick this move is. So if you want to reuse the first Pikmin, just do Pikmin Order after some other quick move like UAir, if you want the second one, just don't Pikmin Order, if you want to go straight to the third, do DSmash, but if you want to use this good anti-approach tool while still using the first Pikmin, you can do that.

I don't know. I just find it nice being able to switch around your Pikmin this well.

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:GCX::GCA: NAir:

  • New move: Olimar will take the first and second Pikmin in the lineup and will rotate them both on either side of him. The first Pikmin in the lineup will be in front, and the second one in the back. Attack without Pikmin will do slight damage and knockback
    • The same type of hitbox is used on both sides of Olimar if Pikmin are present
    • The next Pikmin to be used will be the third one in the lineup by default
  • Very low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Low landing lag
  • Knockback for all Pikmin and hitboxes are at the Sakurai angle
  • Safe on shield both with and without Pikmin
  • No shield damage
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Empty attack: 0.5%
    • Base: 7.0%
    • Red Pikmin: 8.4%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 6.0%
    • White Pikmin: 5.6%
    • Purple Pikmin: 9.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Base: 400%
    • Red Pikmin: 370%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 430%
    • White Pikmin: 450%
    • Purple Pikmin: 345%
    • Rock Pikmin: 360%

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So with the advent of Olimar's Pikminless attacks actually having hitboxes, I think he no longer has the need for an aerial move that doesn't use Pikmin at all. With that, I came up with this.

The usual neutral special where he hits to both sides of him, and like Down Smash, it uses two Pikmin at once. Because of this, it shares the cool dynamic of Pikmin Order with Down Smash, but in the air instead, allowing for more exact switching between Pikmin while edgeguarding for example.

Other than this little thing, it's your average neutral aerial, mostly used for landing, spacing, comboing, etc.

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:GCX::GCR::GCA: FAir:

  • Swings the first Pikmin in the lineup downward in an arc in front of him. Has an early and late hitbox. Attacking without Pikmin will do minor damage and knockback
  • Very low startup
  • Average startup
  • Low landing lag
  • Barely unsafe for early hitbox
  • Unsafe on shield for late hitbox
  • Average shield damage
  • Knockback is upwards at 60 degrees for early hitbox
  • Knockback is upwards behind Olimar at 60 degrees for late hitbox
  • Base knockback is below average to allow for combos and followups
  • Approximate damage numbers: (Early / Late)
    • Pikminless: 0.5%
    • Base: 7.0% / 6.5%
    • Red Pikmin: 8.4% / 7.8%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 6.0% / 5.5%
    • White Pikmin: 5.6% / 5.2%
    • Purple Pikmin: 9.8% / 9.1%
  • Approximate kill times: (Early / Late)
    • Base: 160% / 240%
    • Red Pikmin: 140% / 225%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 175% / 255%
    • White Pikmin: 180% / 265%
    • Purple Pikmin: 125% / 200%
    • Rock Pikmin: 140% / 220%

---------------------------------

So this seems very similar to NAir at first glance, minus the fact that it's only on one side and it's explicitly unsafe on shield at times. However, here's a few difference:

Firstly, it is not at the Sakurai angle, meaning this will always pop someone in the air, making a fantastic combo starter, even at higher percentages if you hit the late hitbox. Speaking of, the late hitbox puts the enemy behind Olimar, giving him a quick combo or followup into his actual killing aerial, BAir. This hit is unsafe on shield and it only really hits below Olimar, but it's absolutely devastating if done correctly.

Secondly, it has higher shield damage, meaning it can be used to approach, albeit poorly (fitting Olimar's weakness) with a bit of immediate threat. I think these are enough difference between the two. NAir is a get off me tool and good neutral tool, while FAir is a more risky/rewarding offensive advantage starter on both the air and ground. And let's not forget it is still good at edgeguarding the opponent.

---------------------------------

:GCX::GCL::GCA: BAir:

  • Swings the first Pikmin in the lineup behind him in an upward arc. Attacking without Pikmin does minor damage and knockback
  • Below average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Above average landing lag
  • Knockback is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Low shield damage
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless: 0.5%
    • Base: 10.5%
    • Red Pikmin: 12.6%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 8.9%
    • White Pikmin: 8.4%
    • Purple Pikmin: 14.7%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Base: 130%
    • Red Pikmin: 115%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 145%
    • White Pikmin: 150%
    • Purple Pikmin: 100%
    • Rock Pikmin: 115%

---------------------------------

Olimar's only truly killing aerial, and it got overal nerfed here to account for the better overall control of his air speed as well as combo potential. Now it has slightly lower damage, slightly higher startup and endlag, and a fair amount of landing lag, making it a meh tool to use in the neutral compared to other aerials like NAir and (as you will see) UAir. It can still get by if hitting a shield, but overall this move is poor in neutral scenarios and is relegated to the finisher in the air.

However, it gains some kill power, making it even a respectable kill move off the stage for even White Pikmin, whereas Reds, Rocks, and Purples will just outright kill without remorse.

---------------------------------

:GCX::GCU::GCA: UAir:

  • Twirls the first Pikmin in the lineup upwards, hitting three times. Can also hit without Pikmin, dealing minor damage and knockback
  • Very low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Low landing lag
  • Knockback is behind Olimar upwards at 100 degrees
  • Very low shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers (First / Second / Third):
    • Pikminless Multihit: 0.1%/0.1%/0.3%
    • Base: 2.0% / 2.0% / 4.0%
    • Red Pikmin: 2.4% / 2.4% / 4.8%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 1.7% / 1.7% / 3.4%
    • White Pikmin: 1.6% / 1.6% / 3.2%
    • Purple Pikmin: 2.8% / 2.8% / 5.6%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit base: 175%
    • Red Pikmin: 155%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 185%
    • White Pikmin: 190%
    • Purple Pikmin: 135%
    • Rock Pikmin: 150%

---------------------------------

This move now does multihits, making it a bit better at zoning out people from above, as well as sharking. And just like every other small hit with Yellow Pikmin, it works as a good combo move at lower percentages, as well as a niche ceiling killer at higher percentages with Rocks and Purples. The last big change is the lowered landing lag in order to not force you to land with a Pikmin Order cancel every time like L-Cancelling does (lol). Small damage nerf to compensate.

---------------------------------

:GCX::GCD::GCA: DAir:

  • Swings the first Pikmin in the lineup downwards in a somersault motion. Will do minor damage and knockback without Pikmin
    • No longer has a lingering hitbox
    • No longer has a meteor smash
  • Very low startup
  • Below average endlag
  • Average landing lag
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Above average shield damage
  • Knockback is upwards in front of Olimar at 75 degrees
  • Base knockback is very low to allow for combos
  • Knockback doesn't take damage of this move into account
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless: 0.5%
    • Base: 13.5%
    • Red Pikmin: 16.2%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 11.5%
    • White Pikmin: 10.8%
    • Purple Pikmin: 18.9%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Base: 270%
    • Red Pikmin: 250%
    • Yellow Pikmin: 285%
    • White Pikmin: 290%
    • Purple Pikmin: 230%
    • Rock Pikmin: 240%

---------------------------------

A repurposed move stemming (lol) away from the meteor smashes of a lot of characters to a good, high damage combo starter with quite a bit of risk to it. This risk is there because Olimar's landing options aren't supposed to be great, however, if you get this move to hit, you will have quite a high damage combo starter to work with, having more damage than Olimar's smash attacks, even if it requires precision. I can easily see this being used mostly as a quick OOS option should the enemy's hurtbox be right on top of Olimar.

But again, unlike a lot of Olimar's other moves, it has some lag to it, as well as landing lag, so use it wisely.

---------------------------------

:GCB: Neutral-B:

  • Remapped move: Pikmin Throw: Quickly throws the first Pikmin in line. The throw itself will deal miniscule knockback and damage. If a Pikmin hits an enemy, they will either latch onto them dealing consistent damage without hitstun, or simply deal knockback and damage with hitstun. Can be angled in all directions. Will go through shielded opponents, ignoring them completely
    • Pikmin Order will now be able to call back Pikmin that were thrown and have not latched onto anyone yet
    • Rock Pikmin will not latch on, while all other Pikmin colors will
    • Latch will decrease in time the more damage percentage the enemy has
    • Throw speeds:
      • Red: Average
      • Yellow: Slow
      • Blue: Below average
      • White: Fast
      • Purple: Very slow
      • Rock: Average
  • Low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Knockback for the throw itself is at the Sakurai angle
  • Knockback for Rock Pikmin is sideways at 35 degrees
  • Empty throw is barely unsafe on shield
  • Low shield damage
    • No shield damage on empty throw
  • Latch hit interval: 0.5 seconds
  • Maximum latch time: 8 seconds
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Empty Pikmin throw damage: 0.5%
    • Base throw damage: 5.0%
      • Red Pikmin: 5.5%
      • White Pikmin: 10.0%
      • Purple Pikmin: 6.0%
      • Rock Pikmin: 4.0%
    • Base latch damage: 0.5%
      • Red Pikmin: 0.55%
      • White Pikmin: 1.0%
      • Purple Pikmin: 0.65%
    • Total base damage maximum: 10.0%
      • Red Pikmin: 11.0%
      • White Pikmin: 20.0%
      • Purple Pikmin: 12.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Rock Pikmin: 170%

---------------------------------

The bread and butter of Olimar is buffed here I would say. While it technically has a slight damage reduction, plus it has an extra second making it difficult to get full damage from the Pikmin, the damage interval being down to every half second means the damage can rack up safer before the enemy kills the Pikmin. In addition, Purple Pikmin can now latch, making Rock Pikmin the designated "Purple" projectile. However, since Rocks do less damage on specials, the throw is actually really weak damage wise and is mostly meant for knocking away opponents as well as causing tech chase situations. The Purples and Reds can deal some extra damage sure, but Whites are still the kings of latch damage. Yellows and Blues are just okay.

However, the biggest change I think involves the fact that because this is remapped to the neutral-B, you can throw it in any direction you wish, making it much more versatile in the air. Just an example, imagine being juggled and Olimar having a Rock Pikmin (with super armor remember) to throw downwards against the sharking opponent. And that's only one scenario.

Because of this change in use, the Pikmin trajectory differences are taken out in favor for speeds. Yellows will be slow to work with their arcing trajectory which would still be intact if throwing sideways at least. Reds and Rocks would be the baseline, Blue, like they do presently, will stop just shy of Reds, and Whites and Purples will remain the top and bottom in terms of speed.

Last potentially huge change is the synergy with Pikmin Order. Now because Pikmin Order can be transitioned from Pikmin Throw and it doesn't change order when you do so, Olimar has the ability to potentially cause the enemy to quickly shield a Pikmin Throw->Pikmin Order as a fake out should he wish to. This gives Olimar a way to cause an approaching enemy to shield without leaving his Pikmin vulnerable.

---------------------------------

:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side-B:

  • New move: Pikmin March: All three Pikmin in the lineup will position themselves in a line in front of Olimar and will be desynced from him. Anyone that passes the Pikmin will be knocked back slightly and have the Pikmin latch onto them. If Olimar passes through any of the desynced Pikmin, that individual Pikmin will be synced back to Olimar
    • Latch cannot work on shielded opponents
    • Rock Pikmin will not latch on, while all other Pikmin colors will
    • Latch will decrease in time the more damage percentage the enemy has
  • Very low startup
  • Very low endlag
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle
  • Very low shield damage
  • Latch hit interval: 0.5 seconds
  • Maximum latch time: 8 seconds
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Base knockback hit damage: 5.0%
      • Red Pikmin: 5.5%
      • White Pikmin: 10.0%
      • Purple Pikmin: 6.0%
      • Rock Pikmin: 4.0%
    • Base latch damage: 0.5%
      • Red Pikmin: 0.55%
      • White Pikmin: 1.0%
      • Purple Pikmin: 0.65%
    • Total base damage maximum: 10.0%
      • Red Pikmin: 11.0%
      • White Pikmin: 20.0%
      • Purple Pikmin: 12.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Rock Pikmin: 550%
    • All other Pikmin: 600%

---------------------------------

This is sort of a newer version of Pikmin Throw, but allows for Olimar to have slight amounts of stage control on the ground due to the Pikmin not only latching to opponents, but also knocking them back slightly. In addition to this, they will stay in place, which gives Olimar some much needed active defense, especially considering his light weight and slow overall speed. It can also trap opponents in a corner, especially at the ledge.

But if that wasn't enough, Olimar can sync up with a specific Pikmin that is in the march formation to attack with while leaving the others on standby. This not only mirrors the Pikmin games where you separate Pikmin colors, but in Smash specifically, it can allow for more use of only one Pikmin color if needed. The biggest downside to this move is the fact that the Pikmin are desynced from Olimar, and thus lose the damage resistance that was mentioned before, making them very vulnerable to attacks. However, considering how spammable they are, the only way this move is only a detriment is if you wish for a specific colored lineup, and even then, you can always Pikmin Order to bring them back.

I think this move will give Olimar a lot more options for defensive play, as well as catching opponents that want to camp him by running away by always having some Pikmin on standby to run into.

---------------------------------

:GCU::GCB: Up-B:

  • Winged Pikmin: Call in two Winged Pikmin to carry Olimar and his Pikmin lineup. Works off of a stamina system. The speed and lift of the Winged Pikmin is dependent on how many Pikmin are being carried where lower numbers mean more speed. Can be controlled throughout. Will cause Olimar to fall in helpless state by default if the duration is up. Can cancel early with an attack, after which the helpless state will start
    • Pikmins' stamina will replenish while Olimar doesn't use them
    • Takes about 4 seconds to fully deplete stamina
    • Takes about 8 seconds to fully replenish while not using it
    • Weights for other Pikmin:
      • Red: Average
      • Yellow: Below average
      • Blue: Average
      • White: Low
      • Purple: High
      • Rock: Above average
  • Extremely low startup
  • Very low endlag

---------------------------------

Pretty much no change on this move. Still a great way to traverse the map quickly. The real power comes from the fact that Pikmin Throw now allows Pikmin Order to call Pikmin in midair, which no longer makes getting the effective version of this a guaranteed sacrifice. However, even after using Pikmin Order, Olimar will become helpless, so there's still a bit of a choice you need to make regardless.

---------------------------------

:GCZ: Grab and Pummel:

  • Mid-long range tether grab. All Pikmin presently in the lineup will attempt to grab. If no Pikmin are present, Olimar will grab on his lonesome, having a shorter range
    • No longer has different distances depending on Pikmin
    • If Pikminless, Olimar will not use Pikmin for any throws, regardless of if Pikmin become synced back to him between grabbing and throwing
  • Average tether grab frame data
  • Slow melee grab frame data when Pikminless
  • Approximate pummel damage numbers: 1.0%
  • Approximate pummel interval: 0.5 seconds
---------------------------------

I think I will work with Olimar's new grab in Ultimate here, where he uses all three Pikmin to grab and pummels himself. The tether would still be pretty standard and the distance of the Pikmin wouldn't vary anymore, making Purples far better at grabbing, especially considering the damage nerf on them for throws.

Note that to keep consistent with the theme of not being helpless without Pikmin, Olimar will grab normally when no Pikmin are in his lineup. Despite the slow frame data for a melee grab, it is still marginally faster than his normal grab, albeit without the properties of a tether grab, which my changes would actually make a good thing to have compared to a tether grab. Pummel is the same regardless.

---------------------------------

:GCZ::GCR: FThrow:

  • All Pikmin will heave the opponent forward at once. If no Pikmin are present, Olimar will push them forward with his fist instead
    • All Pikmin used in the grab will add their damage to the total of the throw
  • Average endlag
  • Knockback angle is sideways at 35 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless: 1.0%
    • Base Pikmin damage: 4.0%
    • Red: 2.8%
    • Blue: 6.4%
    • Rock: 2.0%
  • Approximate kill time:
    • Pikminless: 500%
    • Base with three: 175%
    • Base with two: 210%
    • Base with one: 230%
    • Difference per Red: +15%
    • Difference per Blue: -20%
    • Difference per Rock: +15%

---------------------------------

So a bit different from the new version where the lead Pikmin decides the brunt of the damage, I decided to instead have a throw system where all Pikmin contribute equally and have a set damage amount given to the enemy. Red and Rock are far worse and Blue, as always, is the absolute best by a wide margin, both in damage and killing. On the off chance you have three Blues, this throw actually becomes a respectable kill option.

Compared to other throws though, it is mostly just for stage control and little else, and does average damage.

---------------------------------

:GCZ::GCL: BThrow:

  • All Pikmin pick up the opponent above Olimar's head and slam them down behind him. If no Pikmin are available, Olimar will headbutt the opponent behind him
    • All Pikmin used in the grab will add their damage to the total of the throw
  • Average startup
  • Knockback is sideways at 45 degrees
  • High DI deviation
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless: 1.0%
    • Base Pikmin damage: 2.5%
    • Red: 1.8%
    • Blue: 4.0%
    • Rock: 1.3%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Pikminless: 500%
    • Base with three: 130%
    • Base with two: 160%
    • Base with one: 190%
    • Difference per Red: +10%
    • Difference per Blue: -15%
    • Difference per Rock: +15%

---------------------------------

The designated kill throw by default. Great when against the ledge. However, it has a high DI deviation and as always, the kill potential shrinks immensely the fewer Pikmin you have grabbing. However, adding even one Blue Pikmin can turn this into a disgustingly good back throw, rivaling even Incineroar and Ness. The main downside is that it does almost no damage whatsoever compared to other throws.

---------------------------------

:GCZ::GCU: UThrow:

  • All Pikmin will toss the opponent up and headbutt them in unison, knocking them upwards. If Pikminless, Olimar will do the same, but with his helmet
    • All Pikmin used in the grab will add their damage to the total of the throw
  • Above average endlag
  • Above average DI deviation
  • Knockback is exactly upwards at 90 degrees
  • Base knockback is high
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless: 1.0%
    • Base Pikmin damage: 5.8%
    • Red: 4.0%
    • Blue: 9.3%
    • Rock: 2.9%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Pikminless: 500%
    • Base with three: 215%
    • Base with two: 230%
    • Base with one: 250%
    • Difference per Red: +15%
    • Difference per Blue: -10%
    • Difference per Rock: +20%

---------------------------------

Here we have a throw that is basically for only one thing, and that is damage. Sure, it also can set up nice sharking scenarios and maybe get some chases down, but the high endlag and DI deviation means this is the go to damage racker of the throws, and boy does it work, because even with basic throwing PIkmin, this throw rivals heavyweight throws like Bowser and King K. Rool in terms of damage, and with Blues, it can surpass them quickly. And even with Reds and Rocks, it is only enough of a damage penalty to rival Olimar's other throws' damage, so doing this throw when having bad throw Pikmin is still a good investment.

---------------------------------

:GCZ::GCD: DThrow:

  • All Pikmin forcefully ground pound on the opponent in unison, sending them flying. If Pikminless, Olimar will do the same, only head first with his helmet
    • All Pikmin used in the grab will add their damage to the total of the throw
  • Low endlag
  • Knockback is upwards at 75 degrees
  • Base knockback is low to allow for combos
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless: 1.0%
    • Base Pikmin damage: 3.0%
    • Red: 2.1%
    • Blue: 4.8%
    • Rock: 1.5%
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Pikminless: 500%
    • Base with three: 195%
    • Base with two: 225%
    • Base with one: 240%
    • Difference per Red: +10%
    • Difference per Blue: -25%
    • Difference per Rock: +15%

---------------------------------

This is the designated combo throw. It has low endlag, low damage compared to the other throws, and low kill power... except when Blues are involved, because this throw has the special property of being powered by Blue Pikmin far more than the others, and with three Blues at once, it can potentially become an honest kill throw just like Back throw but without the high DI deviation. Still, Back throw is more reliable for killing and this more so for combos, but it can really surprise the opponent. Otherwise, Blues doing this throw is not the greatest due to potentially ruining its combo potential, so treat this as a tradeoff for Blues' power.

---------------------------------

Now I am really done, now that the grabs are finished. I like Olimar in Ultimate, but I still think these tweaks to him would be welcome regardless.
 
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Idon

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#2
Sounds interesting. I'vs always had difficulty playing Olimar due to his weird mechanics and adding another layer of control and depth would be greatly appreciated.
 
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#3
Sounds interesting. I'vs always had difficulty playing Olimar due to his weird mechanics and adding another layer of control and depth would be greatly appreciated.
I definitely think so. Note that this series is sort of a taste of my design ideas for characters in Ultimate for a Brawl- style mod that I will make whenever the Switch becomes moddable, at least semi-safely. And when Ultimate's metagame is more developed. If there's one thing I definitely want, it's more control and options for the characters, without it being too convoluted or complicated. Now granted, Olimar is one of the exceptions, but having a few complicated characters is fine if the general cast is easy to control minutely at a basic level. :p

I see you are a fan of Ike. He was actually going to be the next heavyweight I tackled after I did Olimar and Ice Climbers (I have even crazier ideas for them than this if you can believe it). What issues do you think Ike would need patched up or worked on? And I don't really mean glaring weaknesses like recovery or slow speed, but more so little things that wouldn't hurt to tune up, like maybe a glaring blind spot somewhere or something like that.
 

KingZing

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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#4
Oof huge post. Read it from top to bottom though! Really interesting, I'm really digging all your changes.

Let's make Olimar great again!
 
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#5
Oof huge post. Read it from top to bottom though! Really interesting, I'm really digging all your changes.

Let's make Olimar great again!
I'm glad you liked it. :grin:

What parts do you think are the best changes? Anything that seems a bit iffy? I will admit that most of what I changed were a few more moves that used Pikmin as well as having hitboxes on Pikminless attacks, but still. You think these could work to make Olimar less of a pure zoner and more of a multipurpose strategic swiss army knife? (because that was my overall intention)
 

KingZing

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#6
I'm glad you liked it. :grin:

What parts do you think are the best changes? Anything that seems a bit iffy? I will admit that most of what I changed were a few more moves that used Pikmin as well as having hitboxes on Pikminless attacks, but still. You think these could work to make Olimar less of a pure zoner and more of a multipurpose strategic swiss army knife? (because that was my overall intention)
I didn't really go in depth with the percentages and whatnot, but Pikmin Order and Pikmin Throw remapped to neutral B are my favourite ideas. I find myself very often wanting to do something specific wth the Pikmin (hitting hard, use yellows for stun etc) but for me even if I play him a lot it feels like I don't really have control over it. If I want to use a Purple, too bad, I had a White in line. At least using again the last Pikmin you threw gives you some more feel of strategy.

And that you can aim Pikmin, really good addition. I can imagine it working like Yoshi Egg. Olimar feels kind of stiff when it involves actively using the Pikmin imo.
 
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#7
I didn't really go in depth with the percentages and whatnot, but Pikmin Order and Pikmin Throw remapped to neutral B are my favourite ideas. I find myself very often wanting to do something specific wth the Pikmin (hitting hard, use yellows for stun etc) but for me even if I play him a lot it feels like I don't really have control over it. If I want to use a Purple, too bad, I had a White in line. At least using again the last Pikmin you threw gives you some more feel of strategy.

And that you can aim Pikmin, really good addition. I can imagine it working like Yoshi Egg. Olimar feels kind of stiff when it involves actively using the Pikmin imo.
Yeah, the main draw I wanted from this redesign is the ability to basically play Smash like an RTS and allow for many small strategic choices for the player. It's the main reason why I reworked Pikmin Order the way I did.

What are your thoughts on the Pikmin themselves? Do you like the overall stats and the differences between smash attacks, special attacks, and regular attacks having different modifiers? Do you like the addition of the transcendent priority Rock Pikmin? Personally, I think I struck gold with that idea since they are both sluggish and fragile, but help Olimar be more of a trade winner if he needs to, something none of the other Pikmin really can be for him even with the rework to priority on Pikmin not always being so low.
 

KingZing

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Joined
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Messages
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#8
Yeah, the main draw I wanted from this redesign is the ability to basically play Smash like an RTS and allow for many small strategic choices for the player. It's the main reason why I reworked Pikmin Order the way I did.

What are your thoughts on the Pikmin themselves? Do you like the overall stats and the differences between smash attacks, special attacks, and regular attacks having different modifiers? Do you like the addition of the transcendent priority Rock Pikmin? Personally, I think I struck gold with that idea since they are both sluggish and fragile, but help Olimar be more of a trade winner if he needs to, something none of the other Pikmin really can be for him even with the rework to priority on Pikmin not always being so low.
Sure, everything sounds reasonable! Preferably, I wish to see Rock Pikmin in a Louie echo/clone, but the more I think about it the less likely I feel it will be... Anyway, we haven't seen Rock Pikmin at all. Just checked again his trailer in the official site and no sign of them. I like your idea very much, but in their case it would be just speculation unlike other types we've seen, unfortunately. So I can't really compare. Again, I think the changes to other Pikmin are really benefitial.

Oh and from the trailer it doesn't really look like Olimar and Alph were given any major changes. Besides, at E3 all they said about them was that their helmet could crack We have yet to see full gameplay of them afaik, but I'm not having high expectations. What a shame.
 

THE TemporaryFool

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#9
I think the Pikmin should Deal different amounts of shield damage. Breaking crystals was something only Rock Pikmin could do. Or maybe the Pikmin, depending on their weight, could travel certain distances in the air. For example: the White Pikmin go the longest when thrown, but Rock Pikmin go the shortest. You could add that if you don’t have it. But I like what I see.
 
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