| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
I always avoid skyworld
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Reconciliation of Evil, the Ganondorf match-up Discussion
- Thread starter JUGGERNAUT043
- Start date
take bowser to skyworld, imo.
i took a game off a bowser that i had no reason to beat almost entirely on skyworld being my counterpick. it really makes bowser's recovery awkward (for bowser) so if you can get him offstage (especially to the right, it felt), you can keep him off by standing on the ledge and just watching if he goes high or low.
if he goes high, you can sit on stage and just fair/bair him as he gets close to the cloud, without letting him land. if he goes low, you can camp on the cloud and do ganon things to him as he tries to come in to grab the ledge.
as a general counterpick, it's not the best, but against bowser, it's really solid. confirmed after the match, that the player at least, really really doesn't like skyworld and was hoping i wouldn't pick it (i picked it at basically random, just had a feeling, as he had banned ghz and the other stage i wanted, and i didn't want to take him to ww or yoshi's story melee).
i took a game off a bowser that i had no reason to beat almost entirely on skyworld being my counterpick. it really makes bowser's recovery awkward (for bowser) so if you can get him offstage (especially to the right, it felt), you can keep him off by standing on the ledge and just watching if he goes high or low.
if he goes high, you can sit on stage and just fair/bair him as he gets close to the cloud, without letting him land. if he goes low, you can camp on the cloud and do ganon things to him as he tries to come in to grab the ledge.
as a general counterpick, it's not the best, but against bowser, it's really solid. confirmed after the match, that the player at least, really really doesn't like skyworld and was hoping i wouldn't pick it (i picked it at basically random, just had a feeling, as he had banned ghz and the other stage i wanted, and i didn't want to take him to ww or yoshi's story melee).
Phantomarchangel
Smash Rookie
This thread had some really points about match ups. I personally will and forever hate marth match ups...Ganon's fist should totally beat his sword...and then 1 shot kill the fcker...lol xD
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_Ganondorf_
The Demon King
You know it
Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
Anyone here have experience in the Ike match-up?
It seems like a hard one against a good Ike, but he's easy enough to kill with a decent read that it may not be bad if I had a better idea on how to approach the match-up. His range is troublesome though, and there doesn't seem to be a good way to DI his throws in order to escape a rough punish. A well-timed Wiz Kick seems to handle any over-zealous Quick Draw approach, but I'm not positive on that. Either way, the amount of pressure he can put on a slow character like Ganondorf is crazy.
Any tips?
It seems like a hard one against a good Ike, but he's easy enough to kill with a decent read that it may not be bad if I had a better idea on how to approach the match-up. His range is troublesome though, and there doesn't seem to be a good way to DI his throws in order to escape a rough punish. A well-timed Wiz Kick seems to handle any over-zealous Quick Draw approach, but I'm not positive on that. Either way, the amount of pressure he can put on a slow character like Ganondorf is crazy.
Any tips?
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Electric Tuba
Smash Journeyman
In my experience I could avoid some of the nastiest followups from throws by DI ing away/forward from Ike's perspective, but I haven't tested anything. Like you said you've got to really respect his range, that sword goes damn far.
I'd be hesitant to throw out wiz kicks against quick draw, since if their reflexes are good enough I think they could just jump cancel out of it and punish hard. But be aware that quick draw can go into the slash, jump, or grab (jump canceled?) at will.
I really don't see a ton of Ikes. :/
I'd be hesitant to throw out wiz kicks against quick draw, since if their reflexes are good enough I think they could just jump cancel out of it and punish hard. But be aware that quick draw can go into the slash, jump, or grab (jump canceled?) at will.
I really don't see a ton of Ikes. :/
Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
Yeah, I know you need to be conservative with the Wiz Kicks, but properly timed, and at a proper distance, it seems like a solid response.
Also, DI away from the throws seems to only work if the Ike isn't on point and/or has poor reaction time. I'd imagine the best way to deal with it is to be on point with techs, and mix-up your DI and tech-rolls as best you can.
Faced once in my time, it was tough. It's like a fast, more agile and ranged Ganon
Just be patient with them I assume. Remember, he doesn't have projectiles, so he'll need to come to you. You just have to capitalize on his mistakes and play really solidly. And like Electric Tuba said, respect the range.
Just be patient with them I assume. Remember, he doesn't have projectiles, so he'll need to come to you. You just have to capitalize on his mistakes and play really solidly. And like Electric Tuba said, respect the range.
In my eyes Ike is like the illegitimate child of Marth and Falcon.
I faced 2 at my last tournament, won against the 2. They weren't very good but neither am I so idk.
One thing I know is that Ike's grab range is almost as bad as ours, so unless you get caught by QDC shenanigans you shouldn't get grabbed that much. And you really shouldn't because yeah Ike's grab follow ups are easy as pie on Ganon and they hurt a lot. I DI down and away on his Fthrow and Dthrow to avoid the ugliest follow ups, but it's still a bad position to be in.
Another thing I know is that his Fair hits far and hard, combined with his dash speed he can reach very far offstage and always catches me offguard.
On the plus side Ike is almost as much combo food to us as we are to him ; no combo breaker and a bad combination of weight and fallspeed make the capitalization easy.
I faced 2 at my last tournament, won against the 2. They weren't very good but neither am I so idk.
One thing I know is that Ike's grab range is almost as bad as ours, so unless you get caught by QDC shenanigans you shouldn't get grabbed that much. And you really shouldn't because yeah Ike's grab follow ups are easy as pie on Ganon and they hurt a lot. I DI down and away on his Fthrow and Dthrow to avoid the ugliest follow ups, but it's still a bad position to be in.
Another thing I know is that his Fair hits far and hard, combined with his dash speed he can reach very far offstage and always catches me offguard.
On the plus side Ike is almost as much combo food to us as we are to him ; no combo breaker and a bad combination of weight and fallspeed make the capitalization easy.
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You can CC QD attack easily. Also if you're good at reading, or have good reflexes, you can jab Ike out of QD. Pretty funny.
You don't want to be far from Ike, that gives him too much room to do QD shenanigans. You're faster than he is with regards to attack speed at a mid range so stay there.
Ike can't jump cancel his QD in something like the first 5-10 frames when he launches it. So that means his only options if he's charging a QD and you're close enough to him is to hit you with QD attack or slide past you. In this situation, you can just use wizkick and hit him lol. If you're just in range for Ike to be able to JC out of QD, you could probably just do a double B reversed side B (so you take the step forward), and no matter what Ike does, he'll get grabbed lol. If the Ike you're playing is a QD happy one, he'll struggle a lot if you keep the fight in this range.
Stay grounded in neutral unless you're really baiting something hardcore and you know you'll be safe. Ike has way too much aerial speed and great access to quick, big hitboxes for you to be jumping around. In fact Ike's mobility is just so much better than yours you should be careful about engaging him in footsies via DDs and WDs.
CC is incredible and just sitting there in crouch sometimes (and slowly creeping towards/away with WDs) can be quite scary for Ike.
You don't want to be far from Ike, that gives him too much room to do QD shenanigans. You're faster than he is with regards to attack speed at a mid range so stay there.
Ike can't jump cancel his QD in something like the first 5-10 frames when he launches it. So that means his only options if he's charging a QD and you're close enough to him is to hit you with QD attack or slide past you. In this situation, you can just use wizkick and hit him lol. If you're just in range for Ike to be able to JC out of QD, you could probably just do a double B reversed side B (so you take the step forward), and no matter what Ike does, he'll get grabbed lol. If the Ike you're playing is a QD happy one, he'll struggle a lot if you keep the fight in this range.
Stay grounded in neutral unless you're really baiting something hardcore and you know you'll be safe. Ike has way too much aerial speed and great access to quick, big hitboxes for you to be jumping around. In fact Ike's mobility is just so much better than yours you should be careful about engaging him in footsies via DDs and WDs.
CC is incredible and just sitting there in crouch sometimes (and slowly creeping towards/away with WDs) can be quite scary for Ike.
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^ Gonna need this next tourney. I managed to avoid Ally last time but it'll be good to know if I want to stand a chance in pools.
In my region alot of people play Ganon, so everyone knows how to exploit him and make him their *****. It actually causes me to play a campy Ganon, to be a bit different and calculated than the usual aggro heavy ones. And surprisingly, it works. It baits out stupid moves and before you know it, you are up a stock with a flame-choke read. Ofcouse, that's best case scenario, so as long as you don't need to approach, you can play this camp game.
I think this is good for Ike. Not staying too far but also not too close, just out of his range where he can start a quickdraw and you being close enough and do, as Spralwers said, a flame chokes
Also, is double+b reversed when he awkwardly switches sides with flame choke? I'm not sure if I've ever double b-reversed, or maybe I have, cause I feel like I know what you're talking about. Does it have utility?
In my region alot of people play Ganon, so everyone knows how to exploit him and make him their *****. It actually causes me to play a campy Ganon, to be a bit different and calculated than the usual aggro heavy ones. And surprisingly, it works. It baits out stupid moves and before you know it, you are up a stock with a flame-choke read. Ofcouse, that's best case scenario, so as long as you don't need to approach, you can play this camp game.
I think this is good for Ike. Not staying too far but also not too close, just out of his range where he can start a quickdraw and you being close enough and do, as Spralwers said, a flame chokes
Also, is double+b reversed when he awkwardly switches sides with flame choke? I'm not sure if I've ever double b-reversed, or maybe I have, cause I feel like I know what you're talking about. Does it have utility?
I played Ally in a bo5 MM at sktar, I did manage to take a game off him. Honestly I don't think it's a bad MU for Ganon. I'd say Ike has a slight advantage. I think it's a harder MU than Ganon vs Falcon, but not by much.
Double b reversed is probably not the correct way to describe it. I suppose the most technically accurate way to describe it would be B-reversed reverse-side B. You reverse the attack just by hitting the stick in the other direction and pressing B, then you B reverse it (reversing your momentum in the process) by turning the stick the other way (the original way you were facing) on the first few frames of start up. Yeah, he kinda does awkwardly switch sides. Basically his step back becomes a step forward.
Does it have utility? Well imagine that in a particular situation, side B would've landed if only Ganon didn't take a step back, giving his opponent room and time to evade. Well by doing a B reversed reverse side B, you now land that move in that particular situation, in fact you land it even more easily than expected because he steps forward. Suppose in the Ike MU, you hang right on the boundary of where Ike can't jump cancel his side B. Well if you do a regular side B, that step back might actually give Ike the room he needs to JC grab you. But if you do a the B-reversed reverse one, you propel yourself into the boundary and grab Ike pretty quickly. You can do it with aerial side B too, but you don't get as much forward distance on start up, which you may/may not want.
Double b reversed is probably not the correct way to describe it. I suppose the most technically accurate way to describe it would be B-reversed reverse-side B. You reverse the attack just by hitting the stick in the other direction and pressing B, then you B reverse it (reversing your momentum in the process) by turning the stick the other way (the original way you were facing) on the first few frames of start up. Yeah, he kinda does awkwardly switch sides. Basically his step back becomes a step forward.
Does it have utility? Well imagine that in a particular situation, side B would've landed if only Ganon didn't take a step back, giving his opponent room and time to evade. Well by doing a B reversed reverse side B, you now land that move in that particular situation, in fact you land it even more easily than expected because he steps forward. Suppose in the Ike MU, you hang right on the boundary of where Ike can't jump cancel his side B. Well if you do a regular side B, that step back might actually give Ike the room he needs to JC grab you. But if you do a the B-reversed reverse one, you propel yourself into the boundary and grab Ike pretty quickly. You can do it with aerial side B too, but you don't get as much forward distance on start up, which you may/may not want.
I see now, thanks. This is what I was thinking about. It's not a hard tech at all compared to some other stuff, so if it does have utility i'll fool around with it. I thought it was simply a weird bug when he turns around, because it looks really unnatural. I'll have to put it to practice to understand what you mean though fully, i'm a visual learner lol
My friends DK took a game off of Ally as well, but he ended up losing the set. Again, I've only faced on, and theres only two at the tourneys I go to, but it'll be nice to know how to counter him.
Ikes a cool character though, don't feel cheated when I lose to him, just it's a rough bout with his mobility.
My friends DK took a game off of Ally as well, but he ended up losing the set. Again, I've only faced on, and theres only two at the tourneys I go to, but it'll be nice to know how to counter him.
Ikes a cool character though, don't feel cheated when I lose to him, just it's a rough bout with his mobility.
Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
Thanks for the advice everyone. This is all stuff I'm going to have to try next time I play Ike. I think what I was mostly missing was the basic mindset to approach the match-up with, but I like the sound of CC, hanging out at midrange, and staying grounded.
We just had a godlike, under-the-radar Ike player who goes by Just move into the area and immediately start taking sets off of Bladewise and games off of Silent Wolf. Definitely going to have to step up my game to deal with it, hopefully all this advice is the first step towards doing so.
We just had a godlike, under-the-radar Ike player who goes by Just move into the area and immediately start taking sets off of Bladewise and games off of Silent Wolf. Definitely going to have to step up my game to deal with it, hopefully all this advice is the first step towards doing so.
Holy **** I played a good Samus yesterday, that MU is hell she just never dies and it's a pain to get in there's so much crap to get around.
I somehow won but just barely.
@
Hungry Headcrab
how the hell do you deal with that **** on a regular basis.
I somehow won but just barely.
@
Hungry Headcrab
how the hell do you deal with that **** on a regular basis.
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Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
That match-up is the ****ing worst.Holy **** I played a good Samus yesterday, that MU is hell she just never dies and it's a pain to get in there's so much crap to get around.
I somehow won but just barely.
@
You're far away from Samus? Eat missiles.
You're at mid-range? Zair. Maybe a missile or two thrown in for good measure.
You're up close? Better make use of your one opening, because all of Samus's aerials are faster than yours, her f-tilt is godlike, and she can apply shield pressure with jabs to the point where your only option is to roll away and reset neutral.
Oh, and she's almost impossible to edge guard.
Land the hits, hope she dies, play perfectly. That's all I'm going to say for now, considering the match-up will be entirely different in a couple days.
But the very best thing with Samus is : she's so floaty you can't kill her out of a Dthrow.