Real test of skills over wi-fi?

[Byron X]

This post sums it up. You, sir, win two internets.

I second that

 

[RedKnight]

I think that tournaments should include a sort of mini side tournament with no money involved, where items and different maps are allowed.

I love playing my friend on FD with no items, but I also love playing Temple with all items on very high

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

This was actually started on another forum I get on, but I thought about bringing the topic here to discuss on an all Smash forum. =D

With all the people today saying "All items off," "Balanced characters only!" and let's not forget "Final Destination," will wi-fi be good if everyone's searching for settings similar to those stated? In my opinion a person who uses one character all the time, uses a specific rules/items setting, and a few stages for each match completely sucks at the game even if they can own anyone or thing with those certain rules/stage/character. I think that's the usual settings for most tournaments.

Here's a quote from somebody of that forum:


The real challenge of Smash Bros. comes when you have unbalanced settings and/or stages. If you can beat anyone/ thing on practically any settings most of the time then you can claim the title as "Champion."

Does anyone agree with me in saying those stupid rules such as "Fox, Sheik, Marth only; Final Destination; and no items" are the most boring, tasteless rules?

P.S. There's nothing wrong with using Fox, Marth, ect.. so don't scream at me for using them as examples. =P

Oh my god, that is one of the biggest ****ed reason I hate you scrubs. You stereotype the Smash community acting as though we ban characters. It's so ****ing stupid. We ban maps because people can be gay and gimp on them. Stage hazards can take stocks off. Final Destination isn't the only map we use either. We have SIX random pick maps. SIX. NOT ONE. Stop stereotyping the competitive Smash community like that, when a lot of the lies you spread are not even done.

 

[KiddyDong]

While I agree some items shouldnt be used for more competitive gameplay, I really do think there should be more maps used in more tournaments. I understand more competitve players dont want something stupid as Brinstar lava, or the cars in Onett screwing them over a final round match. Hopefully Brawl will have atleast more non stage exclusives screw overs (*looks at norfair*)

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

Oh my god, that is one of the biggest ****ed reason I hate you scrubs. You stereotype the Smash community acting as though we ban characters. It's so ****ing stupid. We ban maps because people can be gay and gimp on them. Stage hazards can take stocks off. Final Destination isn't the only map we use either. We have SIX random pick maps. SIX. NOT ONE. Stop stereotyping the competitive Smash community like that, when a lot of the lies you spread are not even done.

Dude. Take it easy. I'm talking about those rules. I never said the Smash community. I got all of my "lies" from my community. I ever so sorry my community is so f'd up. One thing I have learn from this I was wrong in making some of the statements without doing a complete check up on all the facts and using they hyperbole "Final Destination" with out considering you guys really would be offended and I feel stupid now that I did do that, but still no need to cuss me out and get all mad. >.>

 

[Spellman]

When you call a player casual for playing with items, it basically feels like you're calling them unskilled. On the same token, this thread questions the skill of the current tournament player.

Playing under default rules and playing under tournament standard rules takes two types of skill. It's about time people try to find some less insulting labels for people.

EVERYBODY is playing for fun. Even at tournaments with money involved. Durrr.

 

[Chaosblade77]

When you call a player casual for playing with items, it basically feels like you're calling them unskilled. On the same token, this thread questions the skill of the current tournament player.

Playing under default rules and playing under tournament standard rules takes two types of skill. It's about time people try to find some less insulting labels for people.

EVERYBODY is playing for fun. Even at tournaments with money involved. Durrr.

I sort of disagree about losing money at a tournament = fun.

But regarding the labels, there is nothing wrong with "Casual" and "Competitive." It's just how some people see them.

A loud group of Casual players call out Competitive players for their play style they use in tournaments and give all casual players a bad name. The same goes for Competitive players that hate how casuals play. They are minorities but they are noticed the most.

I don't care if someone calls me a casual player, in fact, I will call myself a casual player. I do not go to tournys nor am I interested in going to one, because I know that I do not focus on the game enough (although you couldn't tell by the time I spend here).

Competitive = generally plays tournaments, competes for money or a prize, etc.
Casual = plays with friends for fun, normally are less "skilled" as a tournament player, although this is not always true.

 

[PukeTShirt]

lets just stop. The people who say that items and sh*tty stages take skill will never actually understand why they break the game. They don't understand what its like to be gayed really bad because of the stage layout because they don't play against the type of smasher who will do this to win money out of them. They won't stop making these d*mn threads, so we might as well just let them have their threads and not even argue with them. I am so sick of reading these arguments about how tourney players "suck the fun out of the game" that I could scream

/rant

 

[NastyMcMean]

Leon-->:smiliegor<--Me

 

[kingjoekur]

whatever tournament players need to say to make themselves feel special, i dont care......

i just cant wait to smash all walks of life on Wii-fi....i dont care if u call urself a pro or a jobo........

you cool tourney guys can keep playin with eachother's c-sticks

 

[Spellman]

I sort of disagree about losing money at a tournament = fun.

But regarding the labels, there is nothing wrong with "Casual" and "Competitive." It's just how some people see them.
...
Competitive = generally plays tournaments, competes for money or a prize, etc.
Casual = plays with friends for fun, normally are less "skilled" as a tournament player, although this is not always true.

Well losing money is never a happy moment, but people play Smash for the love of the game. Even in games of pure luck, and playing the odds, people will still play those games for the love of the game. I don't think anybody is going to quit playing Smash if they lose money, they'll quit when they find it boring.

As for the labels, it's still annoying. I don't want to be told that my preferences for how to play a game can't be mastered and that it's all luck, just like tournament players don't want to be called stale and boring for playing a few stages itemless.

There are players that go to tournaments and players that don't. When Brawl comes out, you never know, a sect of item users may start a new tournament scene. But in the mean time, people should have a little respect for one another, then these l33t threads will stop on both sides of the argument.

 

[shadydentist]

In MLG rules, which are the rules used by any well-run competition, all of the rules are there for a reason. Removing items removes a lot of randomness. Stages are banned because certain characters/strategies would be unstoppable. I hear people complaining about 'all fox on Final Destination only', but if no stages were banned, 'all fox on Hyrule temple and 8 minutes of camping' would quickly become the dominant playstyle.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

I guess only a few people like debates. All the others take them as arguments.
Can we get a Mod in here and lock this up?
If I continue to stay here I'm not going to post anything like this ever again. =|

 

[Spellman]

In MLG rules, which are the rules used by any well-run competition, all of the rules are there for a reason. Removing items removes a lot of randomness. Stages are banned because certain characters/strategies would be unstoppable. I hear people complaining about 'all fox on Final Destination only', but if no stages were banned, 'all fox on Hyrule temple and 8 minutes of camping' would quickly become the dominant playstyle.

Not if items were on, with more weapons at your disposal comes more strategies to be able to counter campers. All these rules come from the idea that randomness has no place in competition.

 

[NES n00b]

Not if items were on, with more weapons at your disposal comes more strategies to be able to counter campers. All these rules come from the idea that randomness has no place in competition.

So why do you still not understand?

 

[MetaKnight0]

Heh good tournament players are better than any casual players items on or off, all stages or no.

So to all the scrubs who think tournament players can't play with items, they really have another thing coming.

 

[Someguy13]

I'll play on any stage but I dont like items. I dont care if items are on low I can promise you that I'll loose about 3 stock to bombs Im that unluckey.

 

[kingjoekur]

"if there was no luck involved, i'd win everytime" Phil Hellmuth

u need luck and randomness to add excitement, and getting to use different items from different video game realms is just awesome... why remove it? and with randomness and luck comes the oppurtunity to overcome them to prove urself as the best....

a true smasher will smash someone, anyway they want it.

 

[The Hypnotist]

"True skill" is being able to do anymap,anychracter, any item (almost) and not know any teqniques(SP)

So skill invested with luck.

Why don't you tell me your the king of Mario Kart Double Dash or how about Mario Party 8?

 

[NES n00b]

a true smasher will smash someone, anyway they want it.

So why can't you accept with items off at tournies?

No double standards.

About the randomness, what if every so often, I would throw something at you and your opponent while you are playing basketball one on one (not a real sport but whatever). It would be random, but would it really measure skill in BASKETBALL? You would also be allowed to throw stuff at your opponent. Would it really measure skill in the game of basketball?

 

[Spellman]

So why do you still not understand?

Because I think it DOES have a place in competition, and requires a different type of skill to master.

What I understand is that there are two schools of opinion on the subject, we both believe that our style of play requires skill. It's like comparing two games of two different genre's almost, except not quite that extreme. There's no point in bashing each others skills anymore. It's just weak.

 

[Glinth]

"True skill" is being able to do anymap,anychracter, any item (almost) and not know any teqniques(SP)

Technically, if you can play that way, which in your opinion requires more skill, then
you should be god in competitive smash, owait, can you even wavedash?

-_-

 

[kingjoekur]

So why can't you accept with items off at tournies?

No double standards.

About the randomness, what if every so often, I would throw something at you and your opponent while you are playing basketball one on one (not a real sport but whatever). It would be random, but would it really measure skill in BASKETBALL? You would also be allowed to throw stuff at your opponent. Would it really measure skill in the game of basketball?

i never said i didnt accept it, in fact i'd call it "random" to put on no items every once in awhile. i would play with no items if the people im playing with want to. the people who wont play unless its the way they approve are a disgrace.

Your comparison to basketball is just off. I would say there is a level of randomness in sports though, wouldn't you? i mean todd bertuzzi or chris simon could just smash you with a stick or a blow to the head.....

the point im trying to make is it is random for everyone playing, not just u....

 

[shadydentist]

Its not so much refusing to play it, as refusing to enter a tournament unless the rules are a good way to judge skill. By myself, or with friends, anything goes.

 

[Spellman]

So skill invested with luck.

Why don't you tell me your the king of Mario Kart Double Dash or how about Mario Party 8?

Oh, and I might add, that's a little extreme.

Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, and the rest of the franchise, purposely give advantages to the last place player so they have a chance to make a comeback. That's not just luck, that's increasing the odds ALWAYS in favor of the losing player. Smash Bros. is random.

Mario Party 8 is just plain luck. The winner is the player who roles the dice the best. You can't strategize or reason with dice. They control the game. Skill is a slight variable, but in the end the dices will probably win. In Smash Bros, you have control over what items are there and how you use them. You also have control over beating the guy up who keeps getting heart containers, and have the power to push the odds in your favor by not recklessly smashing over item spawning locations, and choosing the right moves. You don't have control over what drops where, but that's part of the thrill.

For a tournament player, they get a thrill out of staying toe to toe with a player, almost a "true melee" seeing as the finishing blows will most likely be dealt close range. Also not a bad thing! It means you put extreme effort into pushing a character to it's limits of agility.

Both require skill, that's it.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I would just like to point out that item tournaments are extremely rare. If items add so much depth and are the true test of skill, then why do most tournaments ban items? I went to a little scrub tournament recently. They had no affiliation with either MLG or these forums. Even they banned items (despite permitting all stages). There are a lot of things wrong with them. Attempting to argue otherwise is to resurrect debates that happened years ago.

 

[The Hypnotist]

In Smash you can't control where the items spawn. Period.

Let's say we are playing for $10,000 dollars and we are both down to one stock. I'm Bowser and you are DK. A Smash Ball happens to land right next to me. And I win the match because of that item. How would you feel?

 

[Tony_]

In Smash you can't control where the items spawn. Period.

Let's say we are playing for $10,000 dollars and we are both down to one stock. I'm Bowser and you are DK. A Smash Ball happens to land right next to me. And I win the match because of that item. How would you feel?

Horrible example is horrible.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Listen, before things get too out of hand, let me just say that competitive players do not oppose items in all situations. We just want victory to be determined by a player's ability to control a character with extreme discipline and care. When in the middle of a tournament, we do not want some item showing up and practically handing the match over to the opponent. No matter how you cut it, it is not fair. Even the items champion of the universe will have unfortunate mishaps, particularly with explosions.

And Tony_, please explain how that is a horrible example. I believe The Hypnotist summed it all up. Losing $10,000 because the opponent was fortunate to receive a free Pokeball with a legendary Pokemon inside is absolutely ridiculous. How is that a demonstration of true skill? Honestly, if we wanted to play with such odds, we would be playing Poker right now.

 

[Spellman]

I would just like to point out that item tournaments are extremely rare. If items add so much depth and are the true test of skill, then why do most tournaments ban items? I went to a little scrub tournament recently. They had no affiliation with either MLG or these forums. Even they banned items (despite permitting all stages). There are a lot of things wrong with them. Attempting to argue otherwise is to resurrect debates that happened years ago.

Well if billions of people believed 2+2 was 5, that wouldn't make it true or right. Or would it?

Yeah, item tournaments; they're rare. But the art of items can be mastered.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Horrible example is horrible.

No, it's valid. And if a true smasher can play any way why don't you try playing our way?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Well if billions of people believed 2+2 was 5, that wouldn't make it true or right. Or would it?

Yeah, item tournaments; they're rare. But the art of items can be mastered.

But I am not making a "2+2=5" statement. You are trying to make me look like a fool, but you are doing a horrible job of it.

 

[shadydentist]

Things based on luck use luck as sort of an equalling factor. For instance, luck in poker is tempered by the fact that many hands are played, and over the long run the better player would win. This is possible with smash, but to ensure that the better player wins out over the long run would require a prohibitive number of stocks.

 

[NES n00b]

Well if billions of people believed 2+2 was 5, that wouldn't make it true or right. Or would it?

Yeah, item tournaments; they're rare. But the art of items can be mastered.

Items take a certain skill to use them, but they aren't much deeper than without them or if deeper with them at all. The luck involved does not justify whatever skill it takes to use them now. Maybe, in Brawl, the random explosion stuff won't happen and they will take more skill making the game deeper. I don't know. In Melee, this is not the case.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Ironically, I am in the middle of writing a very detailed blog posting explaining how items were removed from tournaments. There is a lot to it, so I have broken it into a two-part series (maybe more if I have a lot to say). Here is part one:

http://roabs.blogspot.com/2007/11/fate-of-items-in-smash.html

AlphaZealot is a very knowledgeable member of the community. He helped me obtain information about the history of items in tournaments.

Play the game how you want. If you like items, play with items. If anyone comes to my place and wants to play with items, I will play with them. The competitive community never tries to preach that you ought to play without items in your smashfests. Why do you try to define the criteria that tournaments ought to adhere to?

 

[Spellman]

But I am not making a "2+2=5" statement. You are trying to make me look like a fool, but you are doing a horrible job of it.

No no no, I'm not, I'm just saying that what's fair is an opinion, and I'm not wrong for saying that people can be skilled at different games.

It's fair that everyone has an equal chance of an item dropping beside them that will help them. It's unfair if there was a third human "item spawner" throwing good items to one player. <-since this guy doesn't exist, the item element is based soley on odds that are evenly distributed around the stage. Easy rule when it comes to Pokeballs, stay away from them when they're opened, or stay close if you think it's gonna be a Chancy. It's your choice. Since everyone has the same chances of the item spawning close to them, that element is fair. Secondly, no item has game breaking elements *IF* the player has played well up to this point. All can be dodged, recovered damage can be re-dealt, and if you've kept your percentage low the whole match, explosions will not be the death of you. It takes skill to be able to beat the odds.

I agree with you entirely about how the current tournament community is playing with skill aswell. Those same skills would prove useful in an item match, but you gotta have a little more practice to ensure a win. Obviously, being good with items doesn't give you great advantages when you're playing no-items, but that's just another reason why they can be both classified as two different types of skill. And it takes a hella lot of skill to be able to push a character to it's limits.

But I'm not trying to make you look stupid, Buzz, I'm just trying to defend everyone, EVERYONE.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

No no no, I'm not, I'm just saying that what's fair is an opinion, and I'm not wrong for saying that people can be skilled at different games.

It's fair that everyone has an equal chance of an item dropping beside them that will help them. It's unfair if there was a third human "item spawner" throwing good items to one player. <-since this guy doesn't exist, the item element is based soley on odds that are evenly distributed around the stage. Easy rule when it comes to Pokeballs, stay away from them when they're opened, or stay close if you think it's gonna be a Chancy. It's your choice. Since everyone has the same chances of the item spawning close to them, that element is fair. Secondly, no item has game breaking elements *IF* the player has played well up to this point. All can be dodged, recovered damage can be re-dealt, and if you've kept your percentage low the whole match, explosions will not be the death of you. It takes skill to be able to beat the odds.

I agree with you entirely about how the current tournament community is playing with skill aswell. Those same skills would prove useful in an item match, but you gotta have a little more practice to ensure a win. Obviously, being good with items doesn't give you great advantages when you're playing no-items, but that's just another reason why they can be both classified as two different types of skill. And it takes a hella lot of skill to be able to push a character to it's limits.

But I'm not trying to make you look stupid, Buzz, I'm just trying to defend everyone, EVERYONE.

There is a glaring flaw in your logic, however. Just because the odds are equal all over does not make it "fair". What if every 10 seconds of the match, one of the two players spontaneously combusted? Just because the odds are even does not mean the results will be. That is the horror of randomness. Sure, the odds are 50/50 each time, but one player might explode 3 times in a row because that is how random works. No matter how you slice it, items tend to favor the less skilled player.

If I were to play against Ken, he would defeat me 100 times out of 100 matches because he plays the game that much better. If items were introduced, I would probably win around 10 matches, and it wouldn't be because I have item skills. If anything, I am pretty sure Ken's item skills are infinitely greater than mine, but the fact remains, explosions and favorable pokeballs would offset the results in my favor where it clearly shouldn't have. How is this "skill"? More skill is demonstrated in an item-free zone because the player has complete control over the whether he wins or loses.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

"if there was no luck involved, i'd win everytime" Phil Hellmuth

u need luck and randomness to add excitement, and getting to use different items from different video game realms is just awesome... why remove it? and with randomness and luck comes the oppurtunity to overcome them to prove urself as the best....

a true smasher will smash someone, anyway they want it.

I'll reiterate what NES n00b said and say that you're trying to impose a double standard. You say a true smasher would play smash with anyone any way they want it, while you're complaining about not wanting to play without them.

Also, who are you, a complete nobody in the eyes of the competitive Smash community to define who a "true Smasher" is? You joined the boards on October 2007 and only have 15 posts. You have had virtually no exposure at all to the Smash community. Stop trying to impose your ****ing beliefs onto the majority that scoffs upon them.

whatever tournament players need to say to make themselves feel special, i dont care......

i just cant wait to smash all walks of life on Wii-fi....i dont care if u call urself a pro or a jobo........

you cool tourney guys can keep playin with eachother's c-sticks

You smash with whoever you want on Wi-Fi. Have fun doing so, but don't try to ****ing insult us by saying "keep playin with each other's c-sticks". Last time I see, under your terminology, we're partner-loyal homosexuals, while you on the other hand are a homosexual **** that wants to have sex with all walks of life over the internet.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

whatever tournament players need to say to make themselves feel special, i dont care......

i just cant wait to smash all walks of life on Wii-fi....i dont care if u call urself a pro or a jobo........

you cool tourney guys can keep playin with eachother's c-sticks

Comments like these fascinate me. You accuse us (the competitive community) of needing to make ourselves feel special... yet, you are the ones coming in attempting to rationalize that items are a demonstration of "true skill". I do believe that you are trying to say stuff to make yourself feel special.

 

[kingjoekur]

I'll reiterate what NES n00b said and say that you're trying to impose a double standard. You say a true smasher would play smash with anyone any way they want it, while you're complaining about not wanting to play without them.

Also, who are you, a complete nobody in the eyes of the competitive Smash community to define who a "true Smasher" is? You joined the boards on October 2007 and only have 15 posts. You have had virtually no exposure at all to the Smash community. Stop trying to impose your ****ing beliefs onto the majority that scoffs upon them.



You smash with whoever you want on Wi-Fi. Have fun doing so, but don't try to ****ing insult us by saying "keep playin with each other's c-sticks". Last time I see, under your terminology, we're partner-loyal homosexuals, while you on the other hand are a homosexual **** that wants to have sex with all walks of life over the internet.

ok buddy, great logic. if u think how many posts i have on a forum is any indication of how i play..... thats all i can say

and i said ill play however u need mr. partner-loyal homosexual