Real test of skills over wi-fi?

[Leon S. Kennedy]

This was actually started on another forum I get on, but I thought about bringing the topic here to discuss on an all Smash forum. =D

With all the people today saying "All items off," "Balanced characters only!" and let's not forget "Final Destination," will wi-fi be good if everyone's searching for settings similar to those stated? In my opinion a person who uses one character all the time, uses a specific rules/items setting, and a few stages for each match completely sucks at the game even if they can own anyone or thing with those certain rules/stage/character. I think that's the usual settings for most tournaments.

Here's a quote from somebody of that forum:

The entire point of Smash Bros. is wacky, crazy, fun battles. It's on the freaking box. It even says "pick from over 20 characters and battle with tons of wacky items" or something. It doesn't say "have tons of fun wavedashing on Final Destination with Fox and not using tons of items."

The real challenge of Smash Bros. comes when you have unbalanced settings and/or stages. If you can beat anyone/ thing on practically any settings most of the time then you can claim the title as "Champion."

Does anyone agree with me in saying those stupid rules such as "Fox, Sheik, Marth only; Final Destination; and no items" are the most boring, tasteless rules?

P.S. There's nothing wrong with using Fox, Marth, ect.. so don't scream at me for using them as examples. =P

 

[Darkurai]

With all the people today saying "All items off," "Balanced characters only!" and let's not forget "Final Destination,"

No one actually says that.

 

[miller483]

Personally, I've never heard, "Fox, Shiek, *insert character here* only!" in my life. Anyway, if people wanna get their competitive on, they'll just come here asking for Friend Codes.

 

[kunai_abuser]

Not true unless you're a real n00b, I mean, real smashers probably could adapt to changes, and probably don't even play the same rules/stages, characters maybe. I expect most real smashers to know how to make the best of different situations.

I expected to be first reply, so this has nothing to do with the first two replies

 

[Ryudragon29]

Yeah I agree with you but you're going to get flamed by the tourny smashers really soon.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Item fans can rant all they want about "true skill" and what it means to be the best at the game. In the competitive community, no one cares. Players want absolute control in a competitive setting. When playing casually with friends and whatnot, sure, items are fine.

Why don't soccer matches let players carry weapons? Why is the audience not allowed to toss bananas onto the field? In competition, unfair randomness is unacceptable. However, when playing casually with friends, sure, let players carry foam noodles to add spice to the game because it's all about "fun".

 

[LemonKing]

You don't seem to understand my friend. Being a tourney supporter and a Falco Player that uses advanced tactics.

Money Match - 50 Bucks goes to the winner. You must put in 25 Dollars to play

Now, say you are winning this match and you are about to make 50 bucks. Suddenly, your opponent is about to get on the stage and you do a smash attack right when a bomb spawns and you blow up. In this case you lose the money/tourny simply because of something out of your control.

And in most tourneys they don't go "Marth and Fox only!" You are able to pick many stages and the ones you can't are because you could be completely unfair on them. Imagine being waveshined into a corner for 5 minutes then Usmashed. Yeah, so much fun.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

Yeah I agree with you but you're going to get flamed by the tourny smashers really soon.

Thanks for the warning. I'll get my running shoes on.

Item fans can rant all they want about "true skill" and what it means to be the best at the game. In the competitive community, no one cars. Players want absolute control in a competitive setting. When playing casually with friends and whatnot, sure, items are fine.

Sure, but one problem. I'm not an item fan. And what i say is "true skill" is being able to adapt to any setting ( that being no items, items on high, or any other crazy settings) with any character even heavy weights.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Sure, but one problem. I'm not an item fan. And what i say is "true skill" is being able to adapt to any setting ( that being no items, items on high, or any other crazy settings) with any character even heavy weights.

Who cares? Tournaments will not change because people like you define "true skill" totally different.

 

[FireWater]

I think Wi Fi will be great practice for some circles, great fun in others.

As far as calling the pros non-pros because they have a rule set that keeps the game flowing and coherent.

Without the rule set, the game would be broken, and even less characters would be chosen because of the lack of limitation which actually helps people choose more of a variety with a better chance of winning

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

You don't seem to understand my friend. Being a tourney supporter and a Falco Player that uses advanced tactics.

Money Match - 50 Bucks goes to the winner. You must put in 25 Dollars to play

Now, say you are winning this match and you are about to make 50 bucks. Suddenly, your opponent is about to get on the stage and you do a smash attack right when a bomb spawns and you blow up. In this case you lose the money/tourny simply because of something out of your control.

And in most tourneys they don't go "Marth and Fox only!" You are able to pick many stages and the ones you can't are because you could be completely unfair on them. Imagine being waveshined into a corner for 5 minutes then Usmashed. Yeah, so much fun.

Point well taken. That I can understand as a reason to turn of some things. As for the tourneys... All the ones I been to would use that stupid rule. I'm going to be moving near you for tourneys now.

Who cares? Tournaments will not change because people like you define "true skill" totally different.

May I ask you a Question? Meh, I'll ask anyways. =D Are you one of the people I'm talking about, and that's why you seem so defensive?

 

[Wuss]

The flaw with arguement of what true skill is, is that no one can adapt to having a hammer dropping down directly in front of their opponents. Luck doesn't factor into how one can "adapt into any situation". items are pretty much all luck...

 

[KiddyDong]

Wi Fi for fun, Direct same console (same wii) multiplayer for competitve play

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

The flaw with arguement of what true skill is, is that no one can adapt to having a hammer dropping down directly in front of their opponents. Luck doesn't factor into how one can "adapt into any situation". items are pretty much all luck...

I beg to differ. Even if you do loose a life or loose a point (depending on what type of match you are playing) you can always bounce back once you re-spawn if you're really good. =D Unless there's 5 seconds left... Then I guess you can laugh about how that was a close match and ask for a remactch to test you luck once more.
Either way you're adapting to it.

 

[GoldenIke]

"True skill" is being able to do anymap,anychracter, any item (almost) and not know any teqniques(SP)

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

"True skill" is being able to do anymap,anychracter, any item (almost) and not know any teqniques(SP)

Basically the same concept as my opinion. =D *Hands GoldenIke a cookie*

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

May I ask you a Question? Meh, I'll ask anyways. =D Are you one of the people I'm talking about, and that's why you seem so defensive?

Am I being defensive? I am pointing out that it is OK to play the game however you want. You talk about "being called the champion" by playing with unbalanced settings, but such a title means absolutely nothing. You go for that title of "champion". No one will stop you. The point is that while many smashers go for that obscure title, the competitive community will host tournaments with balanced settings to actually win something. Where is the prestige in bragging that you are "champion" in an environment where you got lucky because your opponent ran into a bob-omb? How is that "skill"?

 

[brawl1994]

when i play competively i play: no items, final destination or battlefield, when play casually: ne thing goes

 

[Megavitamins]

Man, there are so of these threads it's starting to get annoying... Ok first of all nobody says balanced characters only. Second, competive smashing is fun, even if you are too stupid to realize it.
Just wondering, what noob forum are you talking about? Gamefaq?

 

[Life Ruiner]

Why is there topics like these every 2 days now?

 

[Ryudragon29]

Why is there topics like these every 2 days now?

It keeps the forums active. Lol.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The casual smasher's definition of "true skill" involves ridiculous patience and mind-reading.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

Am I being defensive? I am pointing out that it is OK to play the game however you want. You talk about "being called the champion" by playing with unbalanced settings, but such a title means absolutely nothing. You go for that title of "champion". No one will stop you. The point is that while many smashers go for that obscure title, the competitive community will host tournaments with balanced settings to actually win something. Where is the prestige in bragging that you are "champion" in an environment where you got lucky because your opponent ran into a bob-omb? How is that "skill"?

It isn't skill. It's luck. Luck, in my opinion, makes up a lot of my definaition of "skill." You can never control if your controller decides to spazz out for no apparent reason. The prestige in saying that you're champion of that match/ tourney is that you have good luck.
Anyway, sorry if I offend you with that defensive remark.

Why is there topics like these every 2 days now?

People like to debate on topics that have multiple opinions, but if they go and post in a topic that's a few days old people tend to claim they "dug up" the topic and they end up getting a message from staff. =P

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It isn't skill. It's luck. Luck, in my opinion, makes up a lot of my definaition of "skill." You can never control if your controller decides to spazz out for no apparent reason. The prestige in saying that you're champion of that match/ tourney is that you have good luck.
Anyway, sorry if I offend you with that defensive remark.

So, basketball and soccer do not take much skill...

 

[Chaosblade77]

This is coming from a very casual player:

I completely understand why certain things are banned, stages, items, you name it. The point, as Buzz stated, is complete control over how the match flows. Competitive players normally have something on the line, like money, and don't want to lose this money due to a random fluke.

Items can cause problems more often than you think. Not just explosive items, any items. I can't count the times when I was just bored and playing Event Match 51 or playing a round with my brother who keeps items on, and a Mr Saturn or Beam Sword falls. I am trying to go in for an attack as it appears and I pick it up, stalls me, and I get totally screwed up.

As far as stages go, getting waveshined into a corner. Getting Waveshined off a walkoff stage, how would you like to lose money due to something like that? I wouldn't be too happy about it.

The main thing I think though is I am a casual player, and there is no denying that. What does it matter to me what rules the competitive players play by? It doesn't affect me, I do not go to tournaments. So they can play their way, and I play mine.

Also, the *insert character* only thing is total crap. No one really says that, it just an exaggeration people make.

 

[Wuss]

I beg to differ. Even if you do loose a life or loose a point (depending on what type of match you are playing) you can always bounce back once you re-spawn if you're really good. =D Unless there's 5 seconds left... Then I guess you can laugh about how that was a close match and ask for a remactch to test you luck once more.
Either way you're adapting to it.

right, so let's say for the finals of a tournament in which only the winner takes home money, THe two people are on the last match, last stock. They are pretty even, and then, a poke ball drops in front of player A. He throws it near player B, who then tries to run away from the onslaught on unknowns, that combo him for 40%, into a kill. Nobodies going to be angry, no...

 

[NES n00b]

lol, please learn about what you are talking about first.

I am being harsh because honestly, you don't understand competitive play at all and yet condemning it. No, characters are not banned in Melee and will probably not be for brawl. We have freaken Green Greens and Jungle Japes as counterpick stages in Melee. I was just at a tourney with Peach's Castle as a counterpick.

What is the deal with people wanting items in Smash tournies so bad? If you want to, then actually go to tournies before making judgements. If you still want items, then organize your own tournies. Maybe if there is no way an exploding item or crate would land next or on you and explode from hitting your head or by hitting it (when you are just trying to hit your opponent but it appeared next to you so you hit the capsule or whatever and blow up), then there might be a chance for items to be in. Even if that happens, luck is luck no matter how much "skill" it takes for you to be able to overcome the luck. There is a reason why martial arts matches don't have people throwing weapons somewhere on the mat every so often.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

So, basketball and soccer do not take much skill...

I never said that did I? I said skill is also made up of luck. In a recent football game I watched the opposing team could have won if one player just extended his arm a little more. Wasn't that lucky for the other team? Skill is made up of talent and luck.

lol, please learn about what you are talking about first.

I am being harsh because honestly, you don't understand competitive play at all and yet condemning it. No, characters are not banned in Melee and will probably not be for brawl. We have freaken Green Greens and Jungle Japes as counterpick stages in Melee. I was just at a tourney with Peach's Castle as a counterpick.

Also consider thinking of the fact that I made a mistake in thinking the tourneys I attend all claim they use official rules, and by official I thought it ment most other places that host them use those rules.

 

[FireWater]

It isn't skill. It's luck. Luck, in my opinion, makes up a lot of my definaition of "skill." You can never control if your controller decides to spazz out for no apparent reason. The prestige in saying that you're champion of that match/ tourney is that you have good luck.
Anyway, sorry if I offend you with that defensive remark.


People like to debate on topics that have multiple opinions, but if they go and post in a topic that's a few days old people tend to claim they "dug up" the topic and they end up getting a message from staff. =P

You are right about the controller, sometimes **** happens. what the competitive rule set allows for is balanced gameplay, aka elimination of extraneous variables that may interfere with determining a true winner.

If all tournaments were luck then why would the same people who play well at tournaments keep doing so? By your definition, if luck was a main variable, there should be a random winner of every tournament. The ruleset allows for skill to come out by eliminating any other possible excuse for losing.

Your defintion is crude and flawed, and will probably just wind up ruffles a few feathers that is not necessary.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I never said that did I? I said skill is also made up of luck. In a recent football game I watched the opposing team could have won if one player just extended his arm a little more. Wasn't that lucky for the other team? Skill is made up of talent and luck.

That was a horrible analogy. To answer your question, no, it was not lucky. It was a lack of skill on that one player's part. Sure, it was a lucky circumstance for the opposing team (in their minds), but there is no luck about it. The players still had complete control over the game.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

You are right about the controller, sometimes **** happens. what the competitive rule set allows for is balanced gameplay, aka elimination of extraneous variables that may interfere with determining a true winner.

If all tournaments were luck then why would the same people who play well at tournaments keep doing so? By your definition, if luck was a main variable, there should be a random winner of every tournament. The ruleset allows for skill to come out by eliminating any other possible excuse for losing.

Your defintion is crude and flawed, and will probably just wind up ruffles a few feathers that is not necessary.

I said made of luck not "all luck." =) Skill is talent and luck. the people that continually win then have talent or a lot luck.

 

[Ryudragon29]

right, so let's say for the finals of a tournament in which only the winner takes home money, THe two people are on the last match, last stock. They are pretty even, and then, a poke ball drops in front of player A. He throws it near player B, who then tries to run away from the onslaught on unknowns, that combo him for 40%, into a kill. Nobodies going to be angry, no...

Unknown is freaking easy to dodge. O_O

 

[NES n00b]

Unknown is freaking easy to dodge. O_O

. . . . .what? So someone knocks you into it then. . . . . ? Yeah, that is not a balanced item at all.

Leon, like I said, actually research about tourney rules before you start spewing stuff. You probably played at some guy's house or a gamtrader for the tourney. Each tourney has its own rules even though it follows a certain minimum standard (at least the good ones =\).

Your analogies are wrong. It is like saying my opponent messed up a combo; therefore, it was pure luck. No, if he was technical/skilled enough or whatever, he would have been able to do that combo. It is only luck for me that my opponent messed up. The less luck, the better for competitions.

 

[Ryudragon29]

. . . . .what? So someone knocks you into it then. . . . . ? Yeah, that is not a balanced item at all.

Leon, like I said, actually research about tourney rules before you start spewing stuff. You probably played at some guy's house or a gamtrader for the tourney. Each tourney has its own rules even though it follows a certain minimum standard (at least the good ones =\).

Your analogies are wrong. It is like saying my opponent messed up a combo; therefore, it was pure luck. No, if he was technical/skilled enough or whatever, he would have been able to do that combo. It is only luck for me that my opponent messed up. The less luck, the better for competitions.

I know a pokeball is not a balanced item but unknown was a bad example to me, raikou (or whatever its name) would be one.

 

[Samochan]

I'm lucky when I can read threads like these for a good laugh. ^^

There is 1/50 chance of pulling a stitchface from ground as peach. It takes crapload of luck to pull one ground as first item and another one right after it. And lol, only needs 4 button presses total to be able to deal 34-36% damage per hit from reusable stitchface and it KO's at middle%. Takes soooo much skill to pull out stitch, m'rite? As much luck as hammer spawning at your feet and you use one button press to pick it up, next button presses to move around and own your opponent that can't do **** anymore.

Skill =/= Luck + skill

Skill = Skillz

Luck = random, uncontrollable variable

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

Leon, like I said, actually research about tourney rules before you start spewing stuff. You probably played at some guy's house or a gamtrader for the tourney. Each tourney has its own rules even though it follows a certain minimum standard (at least the good ones =\).

Your analogies are wrong. It is like saying my opponent messed up a combo; therefore, it was pure luck. No, if he was technical/skilled enough or whatever, he would have been able to do that combo. It is only luck for me that my opponent messed up. The less luck, the better for competitions.

It could be pure luck. You never know. From your view point it could have seen like he just fail to press a button at the correct time, but from his view point he could claim his controller screwed up. All a matter of opinion. Like this topic. I can stand here and make half of this forum hate me for my opinions by continuing to point out other reasons or ways, but it might be a wise move to stop now. =P
The main reason behind this topic was for me to get some good opinions since the forum I was talking isn't nearly as active as this one. Thanks for the debate. =D

 

[battousai555]

This is coming from a very casual player:

I completely understand why certain things are banned, stages, items, you name it. The point, as Buzz stated, is complete control over how the match flows. Competitive players normally have something on the line, like money, and don't want to lose this money due to a random fluke.

Items can cause problems more often than you think. Not just explosive items, any items. I can't count the times when I was just bored and playing Event Match 51 or playing a round with my brother who keeps items on, and a Mr Saturn or Beam Sword falls. I am trying to go in for an attack as it appears and I pick it up, stalls me, and I get totally screwed up.

As far as stages go, getting waveshined into a corner. Getting Waveshined off a walkoff stage, how would you like to lose money due to something like that? I wouldn't be too happy about it.

The main thing I think though is I am a casual player, and there is no denying that. What does it matter to me what rules the competitive players play by? It doesn't affect me, I do not go to tournaments. So they can play their way, and I play mine.

Also, the *insert character* only thing is total crap. No one really says that, it just an exaggeration people make.

This post sums it up. You, sir, win two internets.

 

[killbeast301]

As I see it randomness is a good thing, as long as it affects both players the same way. Being able to adapt to a random situation is skill. but if it is a situation that gives a lucky player an advantage, that would be bad.

 

[d0c926]

"True skill" is being able to do anymap,anychracter, any item (almost) and not know any teqniques(SP)

I agree with u, but i am casual player

 

[sexyngo]

go play ken with items