Rayman Revolution

[Sigran101]

For what it's worth, Crash had an entire Facebook page dedicated to his Smash 4 support: https://www.facebook.com/pg/Crash-Bandicoot-for-Smash-4-447905735387110/posts/

Plus, these videos about voting for Crash on the ballot were uploaded on YT in 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV05TQoAc6Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwsLw9rPTKU

At least one DA upload tackling the subject: https://www.deviantart.com/toxicisland/art/Bout-time-I-did-the-Smash-Bros-Fighter-Ballot-536240811

Then there's this user who went on record saying that he made this drawing years ago: https://twitter.com/NickDontHEY/status/973571604671352832

So I wouldn't say his support was entirely inexistent, just buried under Shantae, Shovel Knight, Banjo, Walugi and others.

So after digging for evidence we have confirmation that at least three people voted for Crash, and the Facebook page only had 6 likes. You just proved that support for Crash was more or less non-existent in smash 4 yourself. Not that smash 4 support matters. Joker's smash support was non-existent even in Ultimate. It was just me and three other people.

 

[mariofan48]

I found a worldwide poll from the Smash 4 days that Crash Bandicoot wasn't even on, but Rayman was.

 

[Justin Little]

🤔 https://t.co/e0EZ6EHOyo pic.twitter.com/KomAdPvJUZ

— Rainbow Mario (@RainbowMario_) March 8, 2021

Thoughts? Would be an interesting mechanic for Rayman. I can see Sakurai take some fun liberties like this.

 

[PatPrime]

🤔 https://t.co/e0EZ6EHOyo pic.twitter.com/KomAdPvJUZ

— Rainbow Mario (@RainbowMario_) March 8, 2021

Thoughts? Would be an interesting mechanic for Rayman. I can see Sakurai take some fun liberties like this.

I just saw this myself. Would be interesting and could make sense as anunique mechanic with Rayman not having limbs. I also saw mentions of Reimu in that thread with some graze mechanic. Rayman as an E3 reveal makes sense but so do other choices. We'll just have to see if this leads to anything.

 

[Justin Little]

I could see it like a weird quirk like Link or Hero's shield where it's rarely utilized but it's there.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I still think that the silent majority is glossed over. There's probably a lot of people who asked for and we'd never know of it, just because they don't interact with the hardcore Smash fanbase.

As it was pointed out earlier, the SNK support was allegedly nonexistent, yet Terry is in the game anyway.
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/08/sgpollingresults1/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1riZ4HDxzIjb8OmJyV2T9KgG6M1X-r6siXljFH1nQwdw/edit#gid=0
Crash is on these amassed poll results from circa 2015. Sure, his presence isn't too great (by this fanbase's standards), but certainly more than any SNK character (yes, I've checked).

Sure, this data would be irrelevant now since Crash was dead as dirt as a property until the literal next year, but still.

 

[mariofan48]

🤔 https://t.co/e0EZ6EHOyo pic.twitter.com/KomAdPvJUZ

— Rainbow Mario (@RainbowMario_) March 8, 2021

Thoughts? Would be an interesting mechanic for Rayman. I can see Sakurai take some fun liberties like this.

Is no one going to question the unusual percentage font in this?

 

[MrMcNuts]

Yeah Crash hardly had any push in the ballot days, probably didn't even crack the top 20.

I just saw this myself. Would be interesting and could make sense as anunique mechanic with Rayman not having limbs. I also saw mentions of Reimu in that thread with some graze mechanic. Rayman as an E3 reveal makes sense but so do other choices. We'll just have to see if this leads to anything.

Had me at Rayman and lost me at Reimu

Rayman would be dope enough for an E3 reveal I agree

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Not sure if I'd want to humor this glitch for Rayman's chances if it means he'd get funky physics, and we already know limbless physics are a thing thanks to the Sukapon AT.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Not sure if I'd want to humor this glitch for Rayman's chances if it means he'd get funky physics, and we already know limbless physics are a thing thanks to the Sukapon AT.

Yeah the past few times these glitches haven't lead to anything so I'm not gonna humor it too much.

Some say Reimu but I can see Ninteno passing up Doom, Crash, Rayman, and even other popular indies that were mii'd in favor of getting a rep that's insanely obscure outside of it's cult fandom

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Yeah the past few times these glitches haven't lead to anything so I'm not gonna humor it too much.

Some say Reimu but I can see Ninteno passing up Doom, Crash, Rayman, and even other popular indies that were mii'd in favor of getting a rep that's insanely obscure outside of it's cult fandom

I can think of somebody else.

Spoiler

I mean, their games involve bullet stuff, so...

 

[Justin Little]

Isn't Touhou super popular in Japan? Tbh, I didn't even know what the series was until the Smash Ultimate speculation started. Reimu seems cool, but she wouldn't make me jump in to purchase this pass. You could say I'm pretty disappointed in this one so far. All of the characters look fun, but not one have scratched my personal nostalgia itch I'm looking for. I guess I have mild attachments towards Sephiroth and Pyra/Mythra, but... eh...

 

[MrMcNuts]

Isn't Touhou super popular in Japan? Tbh, I didn't even know what the series was until the Smash Ultimate speculation started. Reimu seems cool, but she wouldn't make me jump in to purchase this pass. You could say I'm pretty disappointed in this one so far. All of the characters look fun, but not one have scratched my personal nostalgia itch I'm looking for. I guess I have mild attachments towards Sephiroth and Pyra/Mythra, but... eh...

The fans insist it's mega huge but it's only decently popular there, nothing crazy. Like I said if bigger and more iconic indies were already miis and assists, I doubt someone as niche as Reimu will make the cut.

And I feel ya. No disrespect to anyone who likes the pass so far but I haven't bought any of the pass 2 characters (I never pre order whole passes)

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I think the issue with Touhou is that ZUN would need to be contacted. He has a bit of a weird relationship with Touhou getting any sort of mainstream exposure beyond console spin-offs:

No Adaptations Allowed: ZUN has turned away multiple investors seeking to make an official Anime adaptation of the project or translate it into other languages, largely because he would lack control over such a project, and doesn't like retreading old ground in general. He is, however, very supportive of Fanime and Fan Translations as long as their unofficial nature is obvious. Due to Touhou's nature as a niche format within a niche medium, it gets a lot of its fame from Pop-Cultural Osmosis; something as mainstream as an anime would run a real risk of displacing the original in the public consciousness.

And we all know how Smash tends to displace lesser-known games in the public consciousness sometimes.

 

[MrMcNuts]

I think that's a other problem with it too.

I'm not sure if any of the official games have had official english translations

I know we had marth and roy in melee and we got lucas, but they're nintendo owned, and earthbound at least made it's way to the US prior (with FE destined for the US as well)

Hell even Rayman's game's (except 3) still get released in Japan

 

[Eldrake]

You know, I was thinking about that unused Rayman costume content for Super Mario Maker alongside the Ryu and Roy ones, as well as that Rayman trophy. This is just a tinfoil hat theory, what if Rayman was initially planned as a DLC fighter for Smash 4, but the vision Sakurai had proven infeasible with the 3DS hardware, and both parties had to settle for a base game trophy as a consolation? If Sakurai's vision involved very unique hitboxes because of Rayman's limbless nature and flying fists, then maybe it'd make sense if it was something the 3DS couldn't handle.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I think that's a other problem with it too.

I'm not sure if any of the official games have had official english translations

I know we had marth and roy in melee and we got lucas, but they're nintendo owned, and earthbound at least made it's way to the US prior (with FE destined for the US as well)

Hell even Rayman's game's (except 3) still get released in Japan

There's been a handful of these official English releases (2010 onwards, if Gamefaqs isn't wrong), but for the most part are PC-only. Antinomy of Common Flowers has yet to get a solid release date for a Switch version, too.

Meanwhile, even Ayumi Tachibana eventually got her own official FDC remakes on the Switch and came to the West after over three decades.

You know, I was thinking about that unused Rayman costume content for Super Mario Maker alongside the Ryu and Roy ones, as well as that Rayman trophy. This is just a tinfoil hat theory, what if Rayman was initially planned as a DLC fighter for Smash 4, but the vision Sakurai had proven infeasible with the 3DS hardware, and both parties had to settle for a base game trophy as a consolation? If Sakurai's vision involved very unique hitboxes because of Rayman's limbless nature and flying fists, then maybe it'd make sense if it was something the 3DS couldn't handle.

Old discussion subject, but that would make sense. A fair bit of characters that didn't make it into Smash 4 was due to technical issues (Ice Climbers, Inklings, trying to get Ridley out of his boss status), so it seems that Rayman's case would have fit along those lines.

 

[MrMcNuts]

You know, I was thinking about that unused Rayman costume content for Super Mario Maker alongside the Ryu and Roy ones, as well as that Rayman trophy. This is just a tinfoil hat theory, what if Rayman was initially planned as a DLC fighter for Smash 4, but the vision Sakurai had proven infeasible with the 3DS hardware, and both parties had to settle for a base game trophy as a consolation? If Sakurai's vision involved very unique hitboxes because of Rayman's limbless nature and flying fists, then maybe it'd make sense if it was something the 3DS couldn't handle.

That idea just might be crazy enough.... TO GET ME ON BOARD!

Jokes aside though maybe Rayman truly will be more complex than we're imagining!

There's been a handful of these official English releases (2010 onwards, if Gamefaqs isn't wrong), but for the most part are PC-only. Antinomy of Common Flowers has yet to get a solid release date for a Switch version, too.

Meanwhile, even Ayumi Tachibana eventually got her own official FDC remakes on the Switch and came to the West after over three decades.

Aren't they all fan games though or nah? I know the creator allows people to sell fan games if he's credited

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

That idea just might be crazy enough.... TO GET ME ON BOARD!

Jokes aside though maybe Rayman truly will be more complex than we're imagining!

Aren't they all fan games though or nah? I know the creator allows people to sell fan games if he's credited

The "Touhou Project" series covers all the official entries, I believe.

The fan games or spin-offs are covered here: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/games/franchise/1994-touhou-project-doujin

 

[PatPrime]

Yeah the past few times these glitches haven't lead to anything so I'm not gonna humor it too much.

Some say Reimu but I can see Ninteno passing up Doom, Crash, Rayman, and even other popular indies that were mii'd in favor of getting a rep that's insanely obscure outside of it's cult fandom

I didn't really want to start a discussion on Touhou and I certainly don't want to get on any fandom's bad side, so maybe this Touhou talk should cease. This is the Rayman thread after all. I only wanted to mention it since the person that pointed this glitch out is a Touhou fan.

 

[Blankiturayman]

It's a little funny to see there being Touhou discussion here, since next to Rayman, Reimu's one of the characters I want the most-- I always joke around with how sometimes people call Reimu "Raymoo" to tie it with Rayman, since then they both start with "Ray".

Added in since I just saw, I generally don't think much of glitches pointing towards characters, since it's a big game and there are bound to be lots of glitches. Nonetheless, it's quite the coincidence that this one could line up with a couple characters.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Do y'all think we're gonna get two characters round E3 time like we did with hero and banjo?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Do y'all think we're gonna get two characters round E3 time like we did with hero and banjo?

Yeah, depending on whether something wacky happens in April/May or not.

 

[mariofan48]

It's a little funny to see there being Touhou discussion here, since next to Rayman, Reimu's one of the characters I want the most-- I always joke around with how sometimes people call Reimu "Raymoo" to tie it with Rayman, since then they both start with "Ray".

Added in since I just saw, I generally don't think much of glitches pointing towards characters, since it's a big game and there are bound to be lots of glitches. Nonetheless, it's quite the coincidence that this one could line up with a couple characters.

Wasn't there a glitch in the past that happened that led into a mechanic for a future DLC fighter? I remember something like that happening.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Wasn't there a glitch in the past that happened that led into a mechanic for a future DLC fighter? I remember something like that happening.

Sometimes yes but other times no.

There was a glitch with Daisy's skirt that led to nothing, and MinMin was supposedly based on Captain falcon and he had no prior glitches

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Wasn't there a glitch in the past that happened that led into a mechanic for a future DLC fighter? I remember something like that happening.

I recall the Mii swordfighter being glitched, which might have lead to Hero's arrival.

Also, fairly sure that Bayo's glitches foreshadowed Min Min's arm-swapping.

 

[mariofan48]

I recall the Mii swordfighter being glitched, which might have lead to Hero's arrival.

Also, fairly sure that Bayo's glitches foreshadowed Min Min's arm-swapping.

Ah yeah it was Bayo and Min Min I remember now!

That means that this glitch could also be for Rayman in the future.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Actually while Bayo did have glitches around that time, dataminers discovered that they used captain falcon as a base.

https://twitter.com/Zeckemyro/status/1278534730942685190?s=19

So sometimes it leads to something, other times it won't though.

 

[Sigran101]

Ah yeah it was Bayo and Min Min I remember now!

That means that this glitch could also be for Rayman in the future.

There was also a duck hunt glitch before Banjo.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

On a tangentially related note to Ubisoft, some former staffers of theirs that worked on the Scott Pilgrim game are behind a brand-new arcade style Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles game! I mean, the Rabbids were in a TMNT game once, so...

There was also a duck hunt glitch before Banjo.

Reminds me of the time Ness had a glitch (in the face?), so people tried to see if any potential newcomer matched his height.

The earliest instance of a glitch I recall is Bowser Jr. potentially breaking the game, around the period Plant was coming as a gift, then some 4Chan post claiming that Plant was riding a kart made folks believe Junior was being used as a base for it.

 

[TAnimal]

Also, it's hard for me to wholeheartedly agree that Koei Tecmo has legitimate content in Smash 4 onward. I think Hayabusa continues to have a great chance, but given how Fatal Frame belongs at least partially to Nintendo they may be able to use the characters and property freely. Kinda odd that everything Koei Tecmo has in Smash seems to have an asterisk attached - so if anything the strongest point in Hayabusa's favor isn't the content that can be tied to KT but rather the complete absence of pureblooded KT content, at least IMO.

Disclamer: extremely late about this but…

Nintendo only owns the Publishing Rights of Fatal Frame, which means just like Bayonetta, the Series IP Rights are still owned by Koei-Tecmo but Nintendo gets First-Refusal ownership of Releasing the Games. So the point being is that Koei-Tecmo still does have a say in loaning the Fatal Frame assets over to Nintendo and Sakurai just like SEGA does with Bayonetta but Nintendo must Negotiate with Koei-Tecmo about the IP’s inclusion in Super Smash Bros Ultimate.

Again Need to Set The Record Straight and avoid the confusion regarding this issue

Otherwise with Koei-Tecmo and Ubisoft being the only Company’s to support Smash Bros 4 Base Game (Trophies specifically), Smash Bros Ultimate Base Game (Spirits specifically & Tecmo’s Yuri Assist Trophy) and Smash Ultimate’s DLC Volume 1 (Ubisoft’s Mii Costumes & Koei-Tecmo’s orchestra of Fire Emblem Three Houses) but NO Major Fighter Packs or Content in Volume 2 DLC. This bodes VERY Highly for an Ubisoft (Rayman) and Koei-Tecmo (Hayabusa) Fighter Packs for the Final 2-Fighter Packs.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Don't forget how Hyrule Warriors in general strangely didn't have any content at all until the Age of Calamity spirit event.

No HW-specific music or remixes.
No spirits.
No AT.
Not even any Miis.

Guess who developed those two games? Koei-Tecmo.

 

[TAnimal]

Don't forget how Hyrule Warriors in general strangely didn't have any content at all until the Age of Calamity spirit event.

No HW-specific music or remixes.
No spirits.
No AT.
Not even any Miis.

Guess who developed those two games? Koei-Tecmo.

Those Spirits would be under Base Game Updates as DLC is very seperate development from each other. As the 3rd-Party developers who loaned the Mii Costumes with their Fighters/Series are involved in the DLC Production which really favors Ubisoft and Tecmo for Playable Fighter Packs in Ultimate

 

[ZoroCarlos]

While Rayman and Hayabusa have been my most consistent predictions for a while, and they'd be a VERY satisfying end of the pass for me, I do dread to see how the community would react to that outcome.

"Generic anime swordsman #451"
"Budget Crash"
"Where's Waluigi?"
"Where's Sora?"
"THIS is our E3 reveal???"
"Scrimblo Bimblo"
"Who???"

Especially since, implying there is in fact no more characters after the pass, everyone is going to be FAR more judgemental.

 

[TAnimal]

While Rayman and Hayabusa have been my most consistent predictions for a while, and they'd be a VERY satisfying end of the pass for me, I do dread to see how the community would react to that outcome.

"Generic anime swordsman #451"
"Budget Crash"
"Where's Waluigi?"
"Where's Sora?"
"THIS is our E3 reveal???"
"Scrimblo Bimblo"
"Who???"

Especially since, implying there is in fact no more characters after the pass, everyone is going to be FAR more judgemental.

In truth Everyone is going to have that regardless, as a Critic Pundit has said ‘Everything is Subjective’. It really doesn’t matter if People like it or not as Sakurai has stated as long as the Product is Fun, Popularity really has no objection to the contrary as proven by past DLC Packs, it’s always Subjective on how you perceive it, but Never objective to the dislike of the Gameplay and Design of the IP as you don’t get anything better than Sakurai’s Vision of his Product which is exactly what Sakurai’s ideas stem from, Innovation and Creativity. Which is actually what Rayman and Hayabusa has over many other Top Characters. Plus Both Rayman and Hayabusa have Worlds that Checkmarks off Every categories of Special Side Contents from Spirits, Spirit Boards, Music and Stages that are Artfully Mesmerizing

 

[ZoroCarlos]

In truth Everyone is going to have that regardless, as a Critic Pundit has said ‘Everything is Subjective’. It really doesn’t matter if People like it or not as Sakurai has stated as long as the Product is Fun, Popularity really has no objection to the contrary as proven by past DLC Packs, it’s always Subjective on how you perceive it, but Never objective to the dislike of the Gameplay and Design of the IP as you don’t get anything better than Sakurai’s Vision of his Product which is exactly what Sakurai’s ideas stem from, Innovation and Creativity. Which is actually what Rayman and Hayabusa has over many other Top Characters. Plus Both Rayman and Hayabusa have Worlds that Checkmarks off Every categories of Special Side Contents from Spirits, Spirit Boards, Music and Stages that are Artfully Mesmerizing

Yah, you're right, I'm just being fearful. I know that regardless of who it is some group of idiots is going to be annoying about it. However though, my thought process here was based on precedent. Like, if Hayabusa makes it he's a guaranteed to be labeled "boring anime swordfighter" or "generic ninja" by the ignorant crowd and not only that, he falls under Terry's category of not being a very well known character overall, but still being an important icon in his own right... and then Terry got called "Hat Ken". So I'm especially worried for his case, cause Hayabusa is such a cool character.

As for Rayman. I have no doubt that Rayman would be received well by most of the crowd, and I know that there's crossover between so many Crash and Rayman fans... but I'm so worried by the "entitled" Crash fans and the "Crash is a lock" people. It's kind of showing that Crash is the most popular character in speculation for FP2. He's been hyped up for a whiiiiile, and if there's a scenario where he doesn't make it, they WILL point fingers at anything, even to characters like Pyra and Sephiroth who have absolutely no bearing on his chances to get in.

I'm just pretty sour right now cause I just got a character that I really really wanted and who deserves to be in the game, but it saddens me how a lot of people are being so hateful towards them. There's a specific user who's just posting hateful stuff on Sakurai's tweets and that just puts a bad taste in my mouth. I know I'm not supposed to let it get to me, I got the character I wanted, so why else should I complain? But dude... this community has just gotten WAY more toxic and entitled in the last year or so that I just want this thing to be done with fast... If only people could be more open minded about who gets added instead of having high expectations for every single slot.

At least I've got you guys. Y'all are cool.

 

[TAnimal]

Yah, you're right, I'm just being fearful. I know that regardless of who it is some group of idiots is going to be annoying about it. However though, my thought process here was based on precedent. Like, if Hayabusa makes it he's a guaranteed to be labeled "boring anime swordfighter" or "generic ninja" by the ignorant crowd and not only that, he falls under Terry's category of not being a very well known character overall, but still being an important icon in his own right... and then Terry got called "Hat Ken". So I'm especially worried for his case, cause Hayabusa is such a cool character.

As for Rayman. I have no doubt that Rayman would be received well by most of the crowd, and I know that there's crossover between so many Crash and Rayman fans... but I'm so worried by the "entitled" Crash fans and the "Crash is a lock" people. It's kind of showing that Crash is the most popular character in speculation for FP2. He's been hyped up for a whiiiiile, and if there's a scenario where he doesn't make it, they WILL point fingers at anything, even to characters like Pyra and Sephiroth who have absolutely no bearing on his chances to get in.

I'm just pretty sour right now cause I just got a character that I really really wanted and who deserves to be in the game, but it saddens me how a lot of people are being so hateful towards them. There's a specific user who's just posting hateful stuff on Sakurai's tweets and that just puts a bad taste in my mouth. I know I'm not supposed to let it get to me, I got the character I wanted, so why else should I complain? But dude... this community has just gotten WAY more toxic and entitled in the last year or so that I just want this thing to be done with fast... If only people could be more open minded about who gets added instead of having high expectations for every single slot.

At least I've got you guys. Y'all are cool.

Cant Win Everyone Over, it’s just the way it is. Rayman and Hayabusa will have an excuse to get in over many other characters which is what Sakurai simply paraphrased it “Unique” and Nintendo’s obligations for Ubisoft and Tecmo with providing Content for Volume 1 DLC before a Fighter Pack. Not to mention both Characters are both Individually Nationally Celebrated (Europe-France & Japan) as Video Game Landmarks, especially with Rayman in Europe

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So, the "leaked May 2019 placeholder list" has cropped up in conversation elsewhere yet again.

Amaterasu
Arthur
Bandana Waddle Dee
Banjo
Bill Rizer
Byleth
Captain Toad
Chun-Li
Crash
Crono
Doom Slayer
Erdrick
Ezio
Flynn (SMTIV)
Heihachi
Jibanyan
Joker
Lana
Lara Croft
Leon S. Kennedy
Linkle
Lloyd
Lora (Torna)
Luminary
Monster Hunter
Phoenix Wright
Porky
Professor Layton
Rayman
Rex
Ryu Hayabusa
Sephiroth
Shantae
Sora
Spyro
Steve
Terra (FFVI)
Terry Bogard
Quote
Yu
Yuri (Tales of Vesperia)

As it stands right now, regardless of whether or not we get a third pass, the "list" is looking somewhat more plausible, since Rex was explicitly going to be chosen once, and MH and Arthur are now costumes. From how I see it, this could give a rough idea of which characters could become fighters, which could accompany said fighters as costumes, and which could have been dropped out as an idea.

Cant Win Everyone Over, it’s just the way it is. Rayman and Hayabusa will have an excuse to get in over many other characters which is what Sakurai simply paraphrased it “Unique” and Nintendo’s obligations for Ubisoft and Tecmo with providing Content for Volume 1 DLC before a Fighter Pack. Not to mention both Characters are both Individually Nationally Celebrated (Europe-France & Japan) as Video Game Landmarks, especially with Rayman in Europe

To also be fair, not everyone can get in the same game all at once. Stars must align, and it's first come, first serve.

Besides, the kneejerk reaction hate will cool off after a while, take it from someone who defended by day one of Brawl's release.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

You know I honestly kinda wonder if Rayman fits the criteria of what Pass 2 is supposedly being a pattern of characters that were left out of Base game that couldn't make it or "fixing/patching" it up.

Especially given Rayman's trophy in Sm4sh, one would certainly think he may have at the very least been considered for Ultimate.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

You know I honestly kinda wonder if Rayman fits the criteria of what Pass 2 is supposedly being a pattern of characters that were left out of Base game that couldn't make it or "fixing/patching" it up.

Especially given Rayman's trophy in Sm4sh, one would certainly think he may have at the very least been considered for Ultimate.

He certainly would. Has only one spirit despite the trophies that were in Sm4sh, and the Rabbid spirits in the base game are associated with the series rather than any Ubisoft property. The Ubi costumes being released alongside a Nintendo character only makes it even stranger.
He'd also fit the "long-term planning" situation that was in.