Rate My Character Archetypes!

[Cahalan]

Recently I had a go at organizing characters into some archetypes based on the categories presented in Smash 4:
1. Attack
2. Defense
3. Speed
4. Atk/Def
5. Atk/Spd
6. Def/Spd
7. Balanced

But used within the environment of Project M. Without any more delay, here's my list:

Attack: Bruisers/Glass Cannons (One hit alone can be devastating)


Atk/Def: Heavy/Light Tanks (Can take hits and dish 'em out)


Atk/Spd: Tech Chasers/Combo Kings (Offensive Teching with Hit 'n Run tactics)


Defense: Defenders (Have many defensive capabilites)


Def/Spd: Tricky/Technical (Defensive Teching that uses mind-games at times)


Speed: Speedsters (Use mobility to its finest degree and can space pretty well)


Balanced: Well Rounded (viable in many aspects, those who can go into many categories)
(if all three were in one character)

(Yes I know there are alot of technical characters offensively/defensively speaking, that's just the nature of Project M)

 

[ECHOnce]

This is actually a pretty healthy activity that I feel most players do to some extent, without considering how important it is and thinking about it in depth. But for players who are newer to PM, because it's a game with so many MUs, there are bound to be some you don't get as much experience in. All you can do if you encounter a janky situation (not just little spacing differences...PM has some weird ****, and we all eventually run into this at least once) is to associate characteristics of your opponent's character with other MUs you already understand, and adjust to try play the MU to their strengths. Adjustments in terms of characters/stages/spacing/aggression. And it takes a long time for many players to build up this knowledge, whether or not they're aware of it.

However, I do believe that thinking about MUs by archetypes is inferior to using the noteworthy character traits that make up the archetypes. Doing so lets you think about them more flexibly by default, although I can see how overlaps in archetypal categorizing could be useful for a character specialist with no secondaries/flexible playstyle. My own "archetypes" would be:

Spoiler: Melee Top Tiers

My main game is PM, so if my opponent seems to be more well-versed vs. my Sheik or Peach, I may consider swapping or breaking away from routine/commonly seen stuff (as opposed to scary secret-player-boss-oriented stuff like Reno on BF aha. Uncommon/optimized-better-than-average player strengths?). Not as a cop-out, but because I realize I have simply had less opportunities to grind these MUs out in my 1ish year of tourney experience than the average Melee player, who can fall back on years of grinding them out.

Spoiler: Projectile-Zoners

Zoning potential > campiness potential, hence why I didn't include Fox; his lasers don't have KB. It still tacks on %, but it doesn't screw with your movement or force shields or other reactions like those of zoning projectiles. Not gonna include M2, Kirby, or Bowser/Charizard and the like either; movement during the move and the endlag are obviously big factors.

Spoiler: Movement-zoners

Here's a grouping that I don't think to many use. This lumps together all the characters that have good options for mixing up their movement, be it confusing grounded movement, good air speed (falcon leaps lol), good initial jump momentum (jiggs/wario stuff), burst movement (ROB, Ike, Wario side-b, Kirby dash attack), or regular ground movement that's just really solid. Not gonna include characters with burst movement like Lucario or DK, whose ground/air movement are meh otherwise. The last five would also prob be way higher on the list if it weren't for their burst movement being at least somewhat easy to react to, if anticipated.

Spoiler: Good Pressure...-ers

This one was really hard to draw a line for; I may or may not have allowed too much overlap with the zoning character so, but I tried to keep this strictly to those with good shield pressure, tech-chasing options, or crazy DI-traps with easy follow-ups (lots of leeway/reaction time), with tools that couldn't be considered as movement/projectile zoning stuff.

Spoiler: Swordies

Some don't actually have swords. Shoot me.

Spoiler: Others with Noteworthy "Disjoint"

Not as "good" as the Swordies' disjoint, due to either being short her, slower/less combo-y, or seen less frequently in their moveset, but still noteworthy as having attacks I'm gonna lose to in trades. Some of the few on the end may not have actual disjoint, but have enough high priority and far reach on certain moves for me to count them as having pseudo disjoint. I lump them into this group since I don't play a Swordie, so it's all the same to me in a bad trade lol. That said, characters like Mario/Luigi/Peach with disjointed laggy up-Bs...meh. Disjoint are scariest in neutral and disadvantageous positions.

Spoiler: Armored

I'm aware that there's different types of armor, which vary in terms of how much attack % they can absorb while at certain %s, but idk them. I should probably educate myself, but...meh. These guys aren't always as scary because I have disjoint on some of my characters, even if it's tiny. 99% sure I'm missing at least a few others.

Spoiler: Command Grabbers

Spoiler: Heavy-weights

Long recoveries make this even worse, which seems to be a theme here LOL.

Spoiler: (Light-weight) Floaties

I personally prefer to group these together, since categorizing characters by one or the other isn't as useful. Fox is the 4th/5th lightest character in the game by that definition. Zelda and Peach are both technically mid-weights. We all know weight = DI capability or whatever, but "quick" falling speeds just make light-weight values too redundant on their own. Easiest to think of them as the "easy-to-kill-early" characters.

Spoiler: (Light-weight) Fast-fallers

Similar to how falling speed made labeling some characters as Light-weight a bit misleading/unintuitive, Fast-fallers have more influence over their trajectory (DI...saying more influence over Directional Influence feels kind of stupid) and can escape combos/traps that some of their lighter grouplets could, so I've excluded them. Easiest to think of as the "easiest to combo/force knockdowns on" characters

I didn't include recovery or edgeguard capabilities because my characters excel in/against both categories, so I don't usually consider them as much as other players might. Tether/Short recoveries would've been there too I guess. Grab reach/startup/endlag is another important character trait, but I'd have no idea how to order them or draw the line.

EDIT: one group I forgot to cover is Good Anti-pressure-ers. Spacies, PK Kids, Peach, G&W, etc. The important thing to factor in here would be how safe the anti-pressure option is in the case that it whiffs; Marth Dair OOS is much more easily punished than waveshine(s) OOS, or FC Nair OOS into shield or another FC aerial, or G&W's up-B moving him well out of harms way.

 

[Cahalan]

This is actually a pretty healthy activity that I feel most players do to some extent, without considering how important it is and thinking about it in depth. But for players who are newer to PM, because it's a game with so many MUs, there are bound to be some you don't get as much experience in. All you can do if you encounter a janky situation (not just little spacing differences...PM has some weird ****, and we all eventually run into this at least once) is to associate characteristics of your opponent's character with other MUs you already understand, and adjust to try play the MU to their strengths. Adjustments in terms of characters/stages/spacing/aggression. And it takes a long time for many players to build up this knowledge, whether or not they're aware of it.

However, I do believe that thinking about MUs by archetypes is inferior to using the noteworthy character traits that make up the archetypes. Doing so lets you think about them more flexibly by default, although I can see how overlaps in archetypal categorizing could be useful for a character specialist with no secondaries/flexible playstyle. My own "archetypes" would be:

Spoiler: Melee Top Tiers

My main game is PM, so if my opponent seems to be more well-versed vs. my Sheik or Peach, I may consider swapping or breaking away from routine/commonly seen stuff (as opposed to scary secret-player-boss-oriented stuff like Reno on BF aha. Uncommon/optimized-better-than-average player strengths?). Not as a cop-out, but because I realize I have simply had less opportunities to grind these MUs out in my 1ish year of tourney experience than the average Melee player, who can fall back on years of grinding them out.

Spoiler: Projectile-Zoners

Zoning potential > campiness potential, hence why I didn't include Fox; his lasers don't have KB. It still tacks on %, but it doesn't screw with your movement or force shields or other reactions like those of zoning projectiles. Not gonna include M2, Kirby, or Bowser/Charizard and the like either; movement during the move and the endlag are obviously big factors.

Spoiler: Movement-zoners

Here's a grouping that I don't think to many use. This lumps together all the characters that have good options for mixing up their movement, be it confusing grounded movement, good air speed (falcon leaps lol), good initial jump momentum (jiggs/wario stuff), burst movement (ROB, Ike, Wario side-b, Kirby dash attack), or regular ground movement that's just really solid. Not gonna include characters with burst movement like Lucario or DK, whose ground/air movement are meh otherwise. The last five would also prob be way higher on the list if it weren't for their burst movement being at least somewhat easy to react to, if anticipated.

Spoiler: Good Pressure...-ers

This one was really hard to draw a line for; I may or may not have allowed too much overlap with the zoning character so, but I tried to keep this strictly to those with good shield pressure, tech-chasing options, or crazy DI-traps with easy follow-ups (lots of leeway/reaction time), with tools that couldn't be considered as movement/projectile zoning stuff.

Spoiler: Swordies

Some don't actually have swords. Shoot me.

Spoiler: Others with Noteworthy "Disjoint"

Not as "good" as the Swordies' disjoint, due to either being short her, slower/less combo-y, or seen less frequently in their moveset, but still noteworthy as having attacks I'm gonna lose to in trades. Some of the few on the end may not have actual disjoint, but have enough high priority and far reach on certain moves for me to count them as having pseudo disjoint. I lump them into this group since I don't play a Swordie, so it's all the same to me in a bad trade lol. That said, characters like Mario/Luigi/Peach with disjointed laggy up-Bs...meh. Disjoint are scariest in neutral and disadvantageous positions.

Spoiler: Armored

I'm aware that there's different types of armor, which vary in terms of how much attack % they can absorb while at certain %s, but idk them. I should probably educate myself, but...meh. These guys aren't always as scary because I have disjoint on some of my characters, even if it's tiny. 99% sure I'm missing at least a few others.

Spoiler: Command Grabbers

Spoiler: Heavy-weights

Long recoveries make this even worse, which seems to be a theme here LOL.

Spoiler: (Light-weight) Floaties

I personally prefer to group these together, since categorizing characters by one or the other isn't as useful. Fox is the 4th/5th lightest character in the game by that definition. Zelda and Peach are both technically mid-weights. We all know weight = DI capability or whatever, but "quick" falling speeds just make light-weight values too redundant on their own. Easiest to think of them as the "easy-to-kill-early" characters.

Spoiler: (Light-weight) Fast-fallers

Similar to how falling speed made labeling some characters as Light-weight a bit misleading/unintuitive, Fast-fallers have more influence over their trajectory (DI...saying more influence over Directional Influence feels kind of stupid) and can escape combos/traps that some of their lighter grouplets could, so I've excluded them. Easiest to think of as the "easiest to combo/force knockdowns on" characters

I didn't include recovery or edgeguard capabilities because my characters excel in/against both categories, so I don't usually consider them as much as other players might. Tether/Short recoveries would've been there too I guess. Grab reach/startup/endlag is another important character trait, but I'd have no idea how to order them or draw the line.

EDIT: one group I forgot to cover is Good Anti-pressure-ers. Spacies, PK Kids, Peach, G&W, etc. The important thing to factor in here would be how safe the anti-pressure option is in the case that it whiffs; Marth Dair OOS is much more easily punished than waveshine(s) OOS, or FC Nair OOS into shield or another FC aerial, or G&W's up-B moving him well out of harms way.

This is also a good way to organize the current roster, however my categories are built around the types first introduced in Smash 4 (as in character customization types) and the categories are taken from Smash 4 combinations of custom traits. This could prove to be as a "general hear-say" as to what the character could be (but are obviously more complex the deeper down the rabbit whole you go like you say). Hopefully for other players going from Smash 4 to Project M (or are playing both such as my self) this would provide at the very least a general hint as to how the characters in Project M could be akin to.

For example, most of the "Tech Chasers"/"Combo Kings" are chosen because of how potent they can be if heavy amounts of tech skill/AT can be applied to make them essentially "Melee Top Tier". Plus looking at it with the Smash 4 categories, most of these characters rely on speed and attacking either in combos or using hit 'n run tactics to an extent (you can still pull off the same stuff in melee that fox and falco could do in that game in Project M's environment with some changes here and there).

On another note, my placement of characters are heavily influenced by the descriptions given on the Project M website (including recent changes that have yet to be noted on certain character profiles *cough*olimar*cough*). At some point I plain to organize an easier way to help players figure their secondaries based on the current match ups for said character. That would require of me to go into every character forum and ask around what his/her main has trouble against in order to compare match ups and come up with a character (or two) as to who would be a good support character.

TLDR; my categories are probably the most casual/heavily generalized compared to other lists of a similar kind.

 

[OSCA MIKE]

bowser should be in the "garbage" archetype

 

[Cahalan]

bowser should be in the "garbage" archetype

He's not THAT bad, in fact any character can beat any other character if you know how to play off of your characters strengths and capitalize off of them.

I still call him a tank because he can take a decent amount and dish about twice as much right back at you even though his armor has been nerfed from what I hear. Good Bowser players have a really tight punish game and are also good at reading their opponent's moves in order to go in for the kill.

 

[Agi]

@ ECHOnce Wario doesn't actually have armor of any sort, unless you're counting grab "armor" on the Chomp. Waft armor was lost in 3.5.

 

[Cahalan]

@ ECHOnce Wario doesn't actually have armor of any sort, unless you're counting grab "armor" on the Chomp. Waft armor was lost in 3.5.

My guess as to why he didn't mention that is that the changed happened in the beta version of 3.6 (which AFAIK, is still in action), with that being said the beta is not by any means final, and if it took the PMDT this long to make 3.6 proper, we can at least something BIG in the works.

On another note, what characters does Wario usually have trouble against? I'm planning on researching current matchup data to devise an easier way to decide what would be the best character for you to second in order to cover for your main in Project M...

@ ECHOnce I think I have some better names for your classifications:
Swordies to "Armed and Dangerous"
(Light-Weight)-X to Feather-X (-X being what ever else comes next)

 

[ECHOnce]

@ ECHOnce Wario doesn't actually have armor of any sort, unless you're counting grab "armor" on the Chomp. Waft armor was lost in 3.5.

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware. Pretty sure he still has light armor on his side-B though.

@ ECHOnce I think I have some better names for your classifications:
Swordies to "Armed and Dangerous"
(Light-Weight)-X to Feather-X (-X being what ever else comes next)

Names are negligible lol. I think mine were clear enough

 

[GenNyan]

I feel like ECHOnce's list is much more useful/accurate tbh.

Its more useful in the sense that it objectively shows characteristics of each fighter, and more accurate because these are things that can be objectively measured (Cahalan's list is somewhat subjective/vague; many characters could be argued for different spots, but there is little/no debate on ECH's.)

Speaking of which, puff would fit better in the glass cannon section because she dies early + rest.

 

[GenNyan]

Accidental reply instead of edit. Why does this happen so often?

 

[Cahalan]

I feel like ECHOnce's list is much more useful/accurate tbh.

Its more useful in the sense that it objectively shows characteristics of each fighter, and more accurate because these are things that can be objectively measured (Cahalan's list is somewhat subjective/vague; many characters could be argued for different spots, but there is little/no debate on ECH's.)

Speaking of which, puff would fit better in the glass cannon section because she dies early + rest.

Yeah, I kind of shot myself in the foot when I limited my self to the character "types" seen when tinkering with custom equipment in Smash 4, but it was interesting for me because of how one game's system of "character types" can affect one's view of a similar roster in a past or even future game. This was more or less a thought experiment to prep me for making a more "True to Project M" list when the final version of it comes out in 20XX/20SS.

Accidental reply instead of edit. Why does this happen so often?

Now that, sadly, I can't explain...

 

[ECHOnce]

Yeah, I kind of shot myself in the foot when I limited my self to the character "types" seen when tinkering with custom equipment in Smash 4, but it was interesting for me because of how one game's system of "character types" can affect one's view of a similar roster in a past or even future game. This was more or less a thought experiment to prep me for making a more "True to Project M" list when the final version of it comes out in 20XX/20SS.

If I had claimed to have thought out the archetypes in such depth before my post, I'd be kidding myself. Simplicity/figuring out your own patterns is more convenient; I just figure out which of my mains I like using for each MU and remember that lol. The only reason why I chose to be so OCD thorough was to make it more flexible. ("Sheik ****s up this chunk of the roster" isn't all that applicable to most people)

Now that, sadly, I can't explain...

EDIT: also, double posts happen because users hit the post button and website registers it, but sometimes it's slow and doesn't load to indicate it. So we hit it again and it goes through more times. Heh