R.I.P. Bowsercide

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It kind of sucks that the bowsercide is pretty much useless now, but honestly I don't see it as too much of a blow to bowser. The grab was slow anyway and I found myself only really using it against people online who didn't know what they were doing.

The Flying Slam itself is still one of his best KO moves anyway, so I don't care as much as I should, considering Bowser is my doubles main/singles secondary

 

[_Magus_]

Now that Bowsercide is gone, is there a more optimal side special to use than Klaw? Assuming that there wasn't already

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think Dash Claw is the way to go. Good approach and negates most weak projectiles. And you have a wave dash with the most distance with it.

Dash Slam could only be good to trip up an opponent to a point they are never safe from a grab.

 

[_Magus_]

Now that Bowsercide is gone, is there a more optimal side special to use than Klaw? Assuming that there wasn't already

I think Dash Claw is the way to go. Good approach and negates most weak projectiles. And you have a wave dash with the most distance with it.

Dash Slam could only be good to trip up an opponent to a point they are never safe from a grab.

Wait WHAT!?!?! Wave dash? How?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Umm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZIa8ZfSlc

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ _Magus_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGzU4n86lTE

 

[_Magus_]

Umm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZIa8ZfSlc

This...this is beautfiul...

 

[Jexulus]

The grabbing side-b's might still have some uses, just not as a victory clincher anymore. It could be used as a nice surprise if you're high on damage and want to reset the stock, as it were.

 

[-Kagato-]

I actually believe the Flying Man glitch is to blame. I just tested it out and it seems that the Flying Man now survives the Bowsercide and jumps back to the stage.

So they basically fixed the flying man glitch, but I believe the 'fix' caused a new glitch: EVERYONE surviving bowsercide. Or at least anyone with a good recovery.

 

[B!squick]

I actually believe the Flying Man glitch is to blame. I just tested it out and it seems that the Flying Man now survives the Bowsercide and jumps back to the stage.

So they basically fixed the flying man glitch, but I believe the 'fix' caused a new glitch: EVERYONE surviving bowsercide. Or at least anyone with a good recovery.

Wouldn't surprise me. If only there was some way we could be sure what exactly their intentions with the patch were. Some sort of... notes maybe?

*takes his broken record off the turn table*

I'm sure you're tired of hearing me whine about this, but I just don't have enough hand for my face.

 

[misterOWAIN33]

Is it at all possible that the person who made the video in the OP had SD penalty set to -2?
It's basic math.
+1 for the KO -2 for the SD = -1 for Bowser
-1 for getting KO'd = -1 for the good Dr.
The tie sends it to sudden death.
Of course, I could be wrong on this, reply with corrections/thoughts...

 

[S_B]

The Flying Slam itself is still one of his best KO moves anyway, so I don't care as much as I should, considering Bowser is my doubles main/singles secondary

The problem isn't that Bowsercide is gone but that it's now actually a LIABILITY to use the move because your opponent can kill you with it and win the game if they have as little as 5% less damage than you (I've heard).

 

[Hitman JT]

Is it at all possible that the person who made the video in the OP had SD penalty set to -2?
It's basic math.
+1 for the KO -2 for the SD = -1 for Bowser
-1 for getting KO'd = -1 for the good Dr.
The tie sends it to sudden death.
Of course, I could be wrong on this, reply with corrections/thoughts...

1. It's a challenger approaching match, which means it's a 1-stock match
2. Stock matches never go into sudden death based on score, but rather the participants losing their final (or in this case, only) stock at the same exact time. If the stock match is timed then it'll go into sudden death if time runs out and both characters have equal stocks remaining but that's not the case here

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The problem isn't that Bowsercide is gone but that it's now actually a LIABILITY to use the move because your opponent can kill you with it and win the game if they have as little as 5% less damage than you (I've heard).

Which is why I only use it at the center of the stage if I have a stock advantage....

EDIT: One extra word that changed everything in this post has been removed

Is it at all possible that the person who made the video in the OP had SD penalty set to -2?
It's basic math.
+1 for the KO -2 for the SD = -1 for Bowser
-1 for getting KO'd = -1 for the good Dr.
The tie sends it to sudden death.
Of course, I could be wrong on this, reply with corrections/thoughts...

Nope, still kills Bowser if the SD value is set to -1.

 

[S_B]

Which is why I only use it at the center of the stage if I don't have a stock advantage....

In a perfect world, sure, but A) smart opponents now know Bowser has this limitation and B) projectile campers are NEVER in the middle of the stage...

Also, even with a stock advantage, certain enemies can still come back on certain stages.

The whole thing is overall buggy right now so this likely isn't going to be permanent. Let's just hope they don't let EVERY enemy survive...

 

[MagiusNecros]

In a perfect world, sure, but A) smart opponents now know Bowser has this limitation and B) projectile campers are NEVER in the middle of the stage...

That's what I keep saying. We can no longer intimidate foes that like to keep to the edge. They do still fear our kicks though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That's what I keep saying. We can no longer intimidate foes that like to keep to the edge. They do still fear our kicks though.

And our Uairs......

Nevertheless, it's not like it's Bowser's only KO move....

 

[S_B]

And our Uairs......

Nevertheless, it's not like it's Bowser's only KO move....

The problem is that Bowser has a short list of "safe" moves to use at this point, since Klaw was one of his safest (even if they did nerf the hitbox on it).

Dair and bomb are extremely punishable, Dsmash is easily shielded and is all around terrible for KO option, Bair can't safely hit anything on stage unless you do it while rising (and even then, there's a list of characters too short to be hit by it).

Ultimately, nothing is going to slide Bowser down the tier list faster than him not having enough options, and when near half of his moveset is too risky to use against a player with any degree of skill, that certainly seems to be the case.

I hope they fix klaw because it's CLEARLY bugged, what with it killing Bowser first on some stages but not ALL stages, and I hope they do something else with his Dsmash as it's redundant garbage right now...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I am finding more success using grounded Bomb anyway as a counterattack, and Flying Slam still has its uses. Yes, people are figuring out Bowser now that the game's been out for almost two months, and that makes certain people feel that he will be less of a character, but the same thing goes for every other character in the game. I just learned that Donkey Kong's headbutt move can break shields. I'm sure that similar cases can be found where people learned that Bowser Bomb can break shields as well.

I don't think that giving Bowser super armor is necessary, though higher priority on his slowest attacks would help since if you get hit by them, you deserve to be punished for it. And change D-Smash from being a immobile Fortress with more knockback and damage to something better, like a powerful ground stomp with a significant shockwave around him.

I have a very aggressive playstyle, but I know there are other approaches I need to learn for Bowser. If my aggressive playstyle does not work, then I adapt a defensive playstyle or even a campy slow playstyle if I am in the lead against another campy player. I've learned ways to adjust. My 41% win rate is due to me not being very good at Smash to begin with; I only started playing seriously with Smash 3DS. I played Melee and brawl very casually. My 41% win rate is also due to me learning the ways with Bowser. He is a high-risk character to use, but he can destroy people if you play him right.

 

[FEFIZ]

I lost 30 minuts but I finish ^^:

Chars that can recovery after a Bowsercide in rooster order (all customs off)
12:
Wario, Zelda, Pit, King Dedede, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Lucario (with 12% or more), Greninja, R.O.B., Villager, Dark Pit, Pac-Man.

Tested in all 51 chars (the 3 Mii's too) on Battle Field but some in Final Destination and Yoshi's Island too.

 

[S_B]

I don't think that giving Bowser super armor is necessary, though higher priority on his slowest attacks would help since if you get hit by them, you deserve to be punished for it. And change D-Smash from being a immobile Fortress with more knockback and damage to something better, like a powerful ground stomp with a significant shockwave around him.

I would LOVE for Bowser to have Charizard's Dsmash (which is basically exactly what you're describing here).

I have a very aggressive playstyle, but I know there are other approaches I need to learn for Bowser. If my aggressive playstyle does not work, then I adapt a defensive playstyle or even a campy slow playstyle if I am in the lead against another campy player. I've learned ways to adjust. My 41% win rate is due to me not being very good at Smash to begin with; I only started playing seriously with Smash 3DS. I played Melee and brawl very casually. My 41% win rate is also due to me learning the ways with Bowser. He is a high-risk character to use, but he can destroy people if you play him right.

The concern I have is that players are figuring out that the best way to play against Bowser is to simply wait for him to approach, even for characters without a projectile. The danger here is that, once everyone has caught onto this, it's going to be a game of "Anticipate which approach Bowser will use" and there are a number of ways they can do that without making enough of a commitment to punish.

What I'd like to see is a windbox on Dair and aerial Bomb (landing). Right now, it's insanely easy to punish these attacks to the point that no sane player would attempt to use them. It feels like a SH FB with good spacing is still a surprisingly good option because it doesn't make much of a commitment but still allows Bowser to go on the offensive.

Also, I WISH they had given him the "Tap B" to fireball and "Hold B" as standard FB as the default setup. Bowser being able to apply projectile pressure of his own (even if the range isn't amazing) would keep him from slipping down the tiers as well as give him some much needed options in the heat of battle...

Also, please don't mistake my concerns for unwarranted negativity. With a few tweaks, Bowser could be a VERY high tier.

BTW, do we know if folks from Namco read these forums? Smashboards is the largest SSB community in the world, last I checked, so it would make sense that they read it on occasion to get a feel for what people are thinking, right?

 

[S_B]

Also, I just realized something...

Know what I REALLY want for bomb? I want aerial bomb to be cancelable, ala Kirby's brick attack. I want to hit down B a second time and Bowser goes "Just kidding!" and returns to normal falling speed. THAT would make the move a billion times better, no SA required, and would allow Bowser players to avoid the #1 killer of Bowsers everywhere: being predictable.

 

[Jerodak]

Do you mean like jumping out of it but at the cost of his double jump? Thinking about all the options he'd get out of that is pretty interesting. However, as long as we're aware of the opponent then predictability shouldn't be too much of an issue for Bowser's landing. On that note, players who are already predictable will probably remain predictable regardless of any options they get; that's still a very fun idea though.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Also, please don't mistake my concerns for unwarranted negativity. With a few tweaks, Bowser could be a VERY high tier.

At first, that is how I saw it, being needlessly negative. As I thought about it more, you do have some valid points. I do not want Bowser to be god SSS tier. However, I think Bowser can use some tweaks that will not break him, like Charizard's ground stomp Down Smash and a small windbox for his Bowser Bomb as it hits. I, for one, wholly welcome Bowser's devastating killing power. Killing opponents at 52% damage is nothing short of satisfying. I feel that small tweaks will keep him from being easily punished, but he still needs to be punished due to how early he can kill people now.

Luckily Nintendo has joined 2003 and finally can offer patches and hotfixes to their games. With the Bowsercide glitch introduced in v1.0.4, I expect to see another patch coming soon.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Every time Bowser trades with his attacks, a koopa troopa gains its wings.
C'mon, Sakurai. Reduce our clash frames a little. Reduce them for Ganon, too, while you're at it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If Bowser was to get any Super Armor put it on his shell at all times. Or basically Shell guard on his shell at all times so we can approach those lame projectile campers and give em what for. How I would love to shell walk up to them and dropkick them in the face.

 

[Ffamran]

If Bowser was to get any Super Armor put it on his shell at all times. Or basically Shell guard on his shell at all times so we can approach those lame projectile campers and give em what for. How I would love to shell walk up to them and dropkick them in the face.

I just realized that... He's a freaking kappa-turtle-thing-called-a-koopa. All the Links use shields so it's normal for them to be able to block against projectiles, but Bowser's got a natural, freaking shell on his back!

 

[Raiden mk-II]

If Bowser was to get any Super Armor put it on his shell at all times. Or basically Shell guard on his shell at all times so we can approach those lame projectile campers and give em what for. How I would love to shell walk up to them and dropkick them in the face.

I just realized that... He's a freaking kappa-turtle-thing-called-a-koopa. All the Links use shields so it's normal for them to be able to block against projectiles, but Bowser's got a natural, freaking shell on his back!

And it's not any normal shell. It's a shell with giant spikes of wanton pain. If I had my way, I would make it so that anyone attacking the shell will take damage, kind of like Thorns Aura in Warcraft III/World of Warcraft.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well in most games if you hit or jumped on the shell you took damage. *shrug*

 

[B!squick]

He should also kill Mario or Luigi instantly if he so much as touches them.

 

[MagiusNecros]

He should also kill Mario or Luigi instantly if he so much as touches them.

And if Megaman touches his spikes he should explode.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

And if Megaman touches his spikes he should explode.

Then Megaman should die when he touches Sonic: http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/2009/02/20/141-bluebombervsblueblur/

 

[S_B]

I think shell SA might be a bit much, he'd be overpowered at that point.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think shell SA might be a bit much, he'd be overpowered at that point.

If I can tank Villager's Tree with Grounded Warlock Punch I think it will be fine.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If I can tank Villager's Tree with Grounded Warlock Punch I think it will be fine.

I think it's armor allows you, but I'm not 100% sure, 'cause I only use Ganon to sandbag against beginners....

 

[Jerodak]

Bowser can Fsmash through the tree with the right spacing and timing.

Obviously not recommended, but funny.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser can Fsmash through the tree with the right spacing and timing.

Obviously not recommended, but funny.

Only if it doesn't hit beyond basically his feet since that part of him is intangible.

 

[Jerodak]

Only if it doesn't hit beyond basically his feet since that part of him is intangible.

Actually, his entire legs are intangible from the active part of the attack till a bit after he hits the ground, they decided to give Fsmash a massive disjoint. I'm pretty sure you can even hit the villager as well if you space just right because the priority on your Fsmash will nullify the tree entirely. I've actually done this in a match, and I even have the replay. I only managed to hit with the sourspot while also nullifying the tree, but it was still pretty cool.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Actually, his entire legs are intangible from the active part of the attack till a bit after he hits the ground, they decided to give Fsmash a massive disjoint. I'm pretty sure you can even hit the villager as well if you space just right because the priority on your Fsmash will nullify the tree entirely. I've actually done this in a match, and I even have the replay. I only managed to hit with the sourspot while also nullifying the tree, but it was still pretty cool.

If you could upload the replay so I can learn that would be great.

 

[Jerodak]

If you could upload the replay so I can learn that would be great.

You probably won't learn much from that replay, other than how to sandbag in for glory, but I have been meaning to find a way to get my replays uploaded or something so I could share them. Once I get on that, I'll let you know.