R.I.P. Bowsercide

[Hitman JT]

Now this won't matter all that much in a tournament setting where we'll be given the win anyway, but it's still slightly annoying to see this take priority over making rolling more punishable or something. Don't know if this affects Ganondorf, Kirby, D3, etc. yet.

 

[Ranias]

Looks like Dash Slash just jumped to a must pick on the customs choice.

Oh wait. We'd be given the win in a tournament setting?

 

[BSL]

Generally, in a tournament setting, the initiator of a suicide move wins if the game goes to sudden death.

Does this mean bowser can no longer jump out of the suicide? If we can, then just make sure to jump and then die second as usual.

 

[Karsticles]

Is that a change? You didn't autowin on a Bowsercide against Master Hand in the 3DS version.

 

[Hitman JT]

Is that a change? You didn't autowin on a Bowsercide against Master Hand in the 3DS version.

Pretty sure you can't grab Master Hand...if you meant Master Core then idk
But if you Bowsercided another player it would always KO them first, and Bowser could double jump and attempt to recover. Same thing with Ganon's flame choke

 

[Jerodak]

Yeah, I don't think we really need to be concerned about this. Even if it's no longer a win for us, it'll only matter in casual settings and for glory anyway since the typical tournament rulings allow for you to take the win. Also, this was in a challenger fight, it could just be a measure put in place to prevent abusing the Bowsercide for an easy win against the CPU. Otherwise there'd be little to no reason to use anyone else when unlocking characters.

In order to confirm is this is an actual change or not we would either need to see this happen in a vs match on the WiiU version or confirm if this also happens in challenger battles on the 3DS.

 

[Flayl]

You can just jump out of Bowsercide, it's really easy in Smash 3DS

 

[Zethoro]

You can just jump out of Bowsercide, it's really easy in Smash 3DS

I didn't know this; confirmed it right after reading. Thanks for the tip!
In addition, I'd like to point out that it's actually possible to recover back to the ledge on any omega stage after this with a bit of speed equipment. However, since any form of custom equipment except for maybe smooth lander isn't going to be allowed, how relevant this is questionable.

 

[Hitman JT]

This change is going to be in the upcoming patch. And Bowser won't have the opportunity to jump out of it anymore. And @ J Jerodak I won a couple challenger fights in the 3DS version via Bowsercide so that can't be it

 

[Action Kazimer]

I don't see this being too big a deal. I just hope that suicide moves in general all get the same treatment.

My only real concern is with your opponent being able to influence movement. Sure, if you're tied on stocks and Side B in a situation where you lack control, you're kinda asking for it. I'm just not wild about your opponent having a shot at forcing Sudden Death because we use our command grab.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Someone verify this for me, but I heard that Bowsercides (and Ganoncides) will still work as usual against human players. It has no effect on CPUs, primarily for the reason I heard is to prevent cheesing through CPU battles that end up unlocking a new character, for example.

 

[B!squick]

Whatever. It's not like I'm ever in a hurry to use a move with a grab box the size of the old Rest hitbox and no follow ups anyway.

 

[Karsticles]

It is even worse than we thought:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=138805234

 

[Action Kazimer]

That's fine, I only ever wanted three specials moves anyway.

JUST LET ME USE CUSTOMS, FOR GLORY.

 

[Anragon]

Well then don't use Bowsercide, it was unreliable anyway.

 

[Action Kazimer]

To be clear, I don't use Side B fishing for suicide kills. My actual reaction to this hinges on someone being able to potentially kill me for using my command grab. The thing has been an asset for me up until now and I'd hate to have to stop surprising people with mid-air Side-Bs just because they could just take a win from it.

End of the day, I'd be totally fine with Bowsercide being in the opponents favor if they no longer get to drive. I'd still just hope that other suicides get the same treatment.


Edit: Really, end of the day, I'll just deal with whatever happens. It's far from a dealbreaker from me. I'm just not wild about balance patching this early on in general.

 

[Hitman JT]

So they gave in to all the ******** and whining of the stupid kids who were victims of Bowsercide and decided to punish the aggressor? Heh. This game is gonna have a really short lifespan at this rate

 

[S_B]

RIP Bowsercide...

And now the move just became a liability to use when Bowser it at a higher percentage.

 

[Hitman JT]

Remember: we'll still get the win in tournaments. I'm just never touching For Glory again because of this bull****

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I am fine with them removing the Bowsercide. I only use it for occasional trolling of my opponents, not as a crutch to win matches.

But I will be very concerned if they give in to people whining about Bowser being able to KO at stupidly low percentages and nerf his power.

 

[B!squick]

SAKURAIIIIIIIIIII!

Okay. I was fine with the move being terrible, but an auto win if you pulled it off in the right situation. I was even okay with it being a tie. But giving the win to the opponent who will have control over the move if they have the lead? What the flying ****?! I'm seriously upset about this. Getting the move to land in the first place is rare enough, but now if I use at the wrong time my opponent can kill me with my own move!? The **** sense does that make?!

Can you really not just jump out it now?

 

[S_B]

I am fine with them removing the Bowsercide. I only use it for occasional trolling of my opponents, not as a crutch to win matches.

I think the point is more that it was already difficult enough to pull the move off that it didn't need to be nerfed. This would be like nerfing Falcon punch because new players keep getting hit by it.

It's extremely easy to avoid being Bowsercided, to the point where only the scrubbiest of scrubs would ever be killed by it. There's already a TREMENDOUS skew in favor of the victim in which way it moves.

Then, there's the reduced hitbox, making it VERY difficult to land in the air where it's easiest to drag someone down with you.

No player who didn't suck was getting killed by Bowsercide anyway. This now makes the move a LIABILITY as players who are at the same stock as Bowser can try to pull him over the ledge if he tries to use it, and the klaw was already pretty bad to begin with...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Then again, when was Smash Bros in general ever about balance? There's always been crappy characters and god-tier characters in the games. Many people who play traditional fighting games such as Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and King of Fighters consider the Smash Bros. games to be more like party games than serious fighting games.

 

[B!squick]

Okay? Doesn't make the nerf any less unnecessary or anger inducing.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I'm not as angry. As long as I can't cancel my initial frames of dash with down b, I'm still going to use dash -> klaw to punish opponents spacing just outside down b range (happens a lot to me, actually). Plus, I'm landing the aerial klaw more than ever before thanks to constant practice, so that's an extra mixup. Unless they nerf the damage/KO and remove lag cancel, it's still going to be a core tool for me.

 

[S_B]

Then again, when was Smash Bros in general ever about balance? There's always been crappy characters and god-tier characters in the games. Many people who play traditional fighting games such as Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and King of Fighters consider the Smash Bros. games to be more like party games than serious fighting games.

But then why are they applying balance patches?

 

[Anragon]

But then why are they applying balance patches?

Might be the first SSB to ever have the benefits of Internet and DLC transfers

 

[JHamron]

I feel like the best option for the Side B is to give the opponent directional influence less than or equal to the aggressor's on it. Then, it doesn't have to be an instant BS KO, unless the opponent screws up, in which case it makes it their fault they lose. There. No one can complain.

 

[S_B]

I feel like the best option for the Side B is to give the opponent directional influence less than or equal to the aggressor's on it. Then, it doesn't have to be an instant BS KO, unless the opponent screws up, in which case it makes it their fault they lose. There. No one can complain.

I honestly wouldn't mind if it had zero directional influence and just went up and came down right in the same location.

If you can land it offstage, you can get a kill that way, but a Bowser coming at you with this attack should be stupidly easy to hit...

 

[chipndip]

Guys:

The move still has TONS of knock back. At a certain point, landing it is a free KO regardless of falling off the stage or not. This is just a measure against those that rely on it to KO through cheesy suicides in a final stock scenario. As long as any other suicide gets the same treatment, I don't see the issue.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Just to clarify, since the NeoGAF post is still unclear...

Did the NeoGAF poster clearly state he tried this against HUMAN players? "The word "player" can mean either a CPU-controlled or a human-controlled player.

 

[SmashBro99]

Good, Bowsercide is for scrubs anyway

 

[S_B]

Bowsercide only works on scrubs anyway

Fixed.

Seriously, anyone killed by Bowsercide needs to quit SSB immediately...

And for the record, you CAN still do it, you just need to be a stock ahead (and your opponent needs to be a potato or something...).

 

[SmashBro99]

Fixed.

Seriously, anyone killed by Bowsercide needs to quit SSB immediately...

And for the record, you CAN still do it, you just need to be a stock ahead (and your opponent needs to be a potato or something...).

Hey it was one time and it was laggy ;_;

 

[S_B]

Hey it was one time and it was laggy ;_;

Well, yeah, that's a legitimate excuse.

The only other circumstance where it can conceivably happen is when Bowser is just respawning and the opponent is at 100% plus when Bowser lands the klaw (even then I think you can still fight it enough...).

 

[MagiusNecros]

Just to clarify, since the NeoGAF post is still unclear...

Did the NeoGAF poster clearly state he tried this against HUMAN players? "The word "player" can mean either a CPU-controlled or a human-controlled player.

As far as I know Player vs. CPU = Forced Sudden Death and Player vs. Player = Forced loss for the Bowser who attempted to Bowsercide. Which doesn't make sense since Bowser is on top of his opponent.

Personally I think we need more clarification on what actually happens. And if percentage matters. Still any good Bowser player won't be using Flying Slam much. Plus it gives me more incentive to use Dash Slash anyway.

Now if they turned Flying Slam into a lame risk move and don't let the Bowser have full control all the time then it's a pretty unfair nerf I'd say. But again you don't need to use it when Bowser has a lot more options.

If you feel the need to Bowsercide you basically have to earn it.

 

[S_B]

As far as I know Player vs. CPU = Forced Sudden Death and Player vs. Player = Forced loss for the Bowser who attempted to Bowsercide. Which doesn't make sense since Bowser is on top of his opponent.

Personally I think we need more clarification on what actually happens. And if percentage matters. Still any good Bowser player won't be using Flying Slam much. Plus it gives me more incentive to use Dash Slash anyway.

Now if they turned Flying Slam into a lame risk move and don't let the Bowser have full control all the time then it's a pretty unfair nerf I'd say. But again you don't need to use it when Bowser has a lot more options.

If you feel the need to Bowsercide you basically have to earn it.

It's still an unnecessary and annoying nerf, though.

This DOES technically turn the move into a liability when you're both at one stock. Bowser already has a number of moves which just plain don't get used because of how extremely punishable they are or they have better versions (D-smash, for example, is worthless when grounded fortress is so much better of an option...).

If they did this nerf in exchange for klaw getting an increase in hitbox size, I'd be less miffed about it...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah I'm not too pleased about it. Since you have to be right next to a foe for it to actually land it seems really unnecessary. Personally if you land a Flying Slam then your opponent deserves what is coming to them.

 

[B!squick]

I'm not as angry. As long as I can't cancel my initial frames of dash with down b, I'm still going to use dash -> klaw to punish opponents spacing just outside down b range (happens a lot to me, actually). Plus, I'm landing the aerial klaw more than ever before thanks to constant practice, so that's an extra mixup. Unless they nerf the damage/KO and remove lag cancel, it's still going to be a core tool for me.

Have you tried crouching? I haven't turned the game on in ages, but if I remember correctly if you crouch while dashing you can seamlessly transition into any move or nearly any move. Pretty sure it works with DownB. Hang on, I might as well check. The DS is right here... Well, I guess it only makes a difference with A moves, but still, Klaw looks like it's only slightly quicker and it does less damage while being just as punishable. At least with DownB you might land the second hit.

 

[Jerodak]

Have you tried crouching? I haven't turned the game on in ages, but if I remember correctly if you crouch while dashing you can seamlessly transition into any move or nearly any move. Pretty sure it works with DownB. Hang on, I might as well check. The DS is right here... Well, I guess it only makes a difference with A moves, but still, Klaw looks like it's only slightly quicker and it does less damage while being just as punishable. At least with DownB you might land the second hit.

I dunno about it being "Just as punishable" as down B, I suppose certain characters can still get smashes on you, but that's generally only if they spot dodge the klaw and I think Bowser likes when the opponent is spotdodging. However, Down B has similar issues, and it's even punishable on hit if they are at low enough percents. Also, you cannot crouch during the dash, but Bowser's run stop animation is very fast so you can essentially do any attack pretty seamlessly from a dash. However, I'm pretty sure that all specials, aside from neutral special just because of the fact you're holding forward, can all cancel the run animation directly without a run stop. I don't know about you guys, but I intend to B-Stick once the Wii-u version is out.

In situations where down B wouldn't kill them anyway, Klaw is a completely valid option just for the fact that you only need it to connect once for full damage, and it can be used for positioning. Getting the opponent to the edge or offstage is generally better than doing more damage, especially if it's only a 6% difference, you can easily make that up with pretty much anything else. the less you're using the bomb, the more likely your opponent won't be thinking about it when it matters. It also helps when you're not using bomb all the time because your opponent is less likely to be thinking about it that one time when you actually need it for the kill or the shield break.