Question: Why do people want Sonic to be nerfed badly in Smash 4?

[Camalange]

Id like to see sonic do more than that, show me some combos pls

You're welcome to view our video archive thread to enhance your palette.

Also, I'm still waiting on that video of you losing to a generic Sonic.

 

[Zaycko]

You're welcome to view our video archive thread to enhance your palette.

Also, I'm still waiting on that video of you losing to a generic Sonic.

Why upload it?, its basically the same as the video above, except that i didnt get 2 stocked...

 

[Deathwish238]

According to recent tier lists and sonic tournament rankings (which go hand and hand obviously lol), i've seen sonic be pretty high up there. so my question is, why is sonic considered really good in this game? being a sonic main in brawl i see the changes they gave him: more kill power, dash attack goes behind shield more consistently, throws can kill eventually, and fair acts the way it's supposed to act.

but besides that I really don't see how he can be "really good" maybe the rest of the cast is lacking. I don't think his buffed KO power puts him at the position that tier lists say that he's at, i think he's above average or "good" char but not REALLY good top 8.

What are the tangible reasons that make him "really good" in this game? cuz i don't see that much difference except a little bit more KO power which he badly needed.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Don't have time to write up a bunch but shields take longer to drop and you have lag air dodging into the stage too. That's super important with our foot speed and feinting tools.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

IMO, all we needed was KO power.

The other perks are just bonus.

 

[Jasku]

IMO, all we needed was KO power.

The other perks are just bonus.

We needed more strenght too (for percentage), because Sonic in Brawl could hit you fifty million times and you only had like 15%.

 

[ToxicWolf1132]

I don't see the issue with sonic. In most matches I play (either as him or against him) it goes like this: One of the other players has horrible lag. Lag causes sonic player to accidently run off the ledge. Repeat for the rest of the match.

 

[Camalange]

According to recent tier lists and sonic tournament rankings (which go hand and hand obviously lol), i've seen sonic be pretty high up there. so my question is, why is sonic considered really good in this game? being a sonic main in brawl i see the changes they gave him: more kill power, dash attack goes behind shield more consistently, throws can kill eventually, and fair acts the way it's supposed to act.

but besides that I really don't see how he can be "really good" maybe the rest of the cast is lacking. I don't think his buffed KO power puts him at the position that tier lists say that he's at, i think he's above average or "good" char but not REALLY good top 8.

What are the tangible reasons that make him "really good" in this game? cuz i don't see that much difference except a little bit more KO power which he badly needed.

I wouldn't quite say tournament results go hand-in-hand with tier lists... Pit used to be so high up in Brawl based on "potential" alone and Sonic used to be super low despite his consistent results... This all changed with time, but yeah, it eventually influences.

I honestly think the biggest thing outside of his boost in KO power and shield pressure is the fact that no one knows this match-up. If people hadn't played Brawl, or never researched the match-up in Brawl because there wasn't a need to, they have no idea how to respond to this character because he is so fundamentally different from the rest of the cast.

I still stand by the fact that Sonic is not top 5 in this game, but definitely has potential to be high tier. I think he's still very held back by his bad landing and approach options (which actually got WORSE in this game due to the increased autocancel distance on dair and the removal of ASCSC).

Don't have time to write up a bunch but shields take longer to drop and you have lag air dodging into the stage too. That's super important with our foot speed and feinting tools.

This is important too. Smash 4 is a new game, so with the change in environment, this will change character's abilities even if the game is too new to immediately recognize (I also think that Sonic's landing option are EVEN MORE HINDERED due to not being able to airdodge into the ground, in addition to his already bad options).

We also got wrecked by BSBS.

IMO, all we needed was KO power.

The other perks are just bonus.

Agreed. Sonic could've easily been high-mid or possibly even high in Brawl if he had more KO potential. He had too many little things in addition to that though that held him back, like not being able to sweetspot the ledge with UpB.

We needed more strenght too (for percentage), because Sonic in Brawl could hit you fifty million times and you only had like 15%.

Actually, Sonic's moves overall due more damage in Brawl than in this game. His percentage output got drastically nerfed. Almost all of his standard moves do like, 6%... (Uthrow used to be 11 and is now 6, etc.)

The difference is, again, this game is a new environment so thanks to people dying earlier and Sonic having much stronger KO options, the need to wrack up crazy damage very quickly is relative to this.

I don't see the issue with sonic. In most matches I play (either as him or against him) it goes like this: One of the other players has horrible lag. Lag causes sonic player to accidently run off the ledge. Repeat for the rest of the match.

You can't use lag or bad players as a basis for the entire metagame.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic isn't top 5 imo. Diddy, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi, Lucario are probably my top 5 with Rosalina and ZSS following that up. I think Sonic is in that next group though with Pikachu, Fox, Shulk, DHD, Peach, Mario, Robin. Then the mid level guys like Falcon, Ike, Little Mac. Then the almost good guys like DK, Bowser, Marth. Then the bad characters like Falco, Wii Fit Trainer and Ganon. Not totally confident on guys past the top. Not totally sure in general but those are my early impressions.

 

[Jasku]

"Terios the Hedgehog said" ...Then the bad characters like Falco...

Poor Falco. He used to be loved...

 

[Kinzer]

Poor Falco. He used to be loved...

Speak for yourself. Out of all the returning characters or ones that abused Sonic in Brawl, I'm glad this one became cold turkey.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Dude. I played Falco in every game. I try to make him work in this one but I think he's so bad. Every loss I have on for glory is either from the game being a slideshow, playing Falco or both. Also one where I played GaW because this guy played for 2 hours and couldn't win so I picked him for luls. The guy immediately ducked then. Lol

I still play him for love of the character and I'm getting his amiibo but like...I can't believe people prop him up then **** on like...Samus.

 

[Camalange]

Every loss I have on for glory is either from the game being a slideshow

Yup.

that feel

That's 100% of my losses on For Glory is me being too stubborn to just quit when the connection is unbearable.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Don't know if people saw it but Sakurai said no more balance patches so Sonic won't be nerfed. Means no BSBS fix either though.

 

[Camalange]

yaaaay

 

[BSP]

What is BSBS?

 

[Camalange]

What is BSBS?

Check out Sonic Orochi's thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/move...ash-roll-circle-roll-updated-12-13-14.370892/

He has a whole section on the BSBS and how BS it is.

 

[BSP]

Ah, the air tripping thing. Thanks.

Sucks that it remains, but on the plus side, cypher-gimping is no more.

 

[Omegascizor456]

I am not sure i mean he was pretty ATROCIOUS in brawl and i still mained him through that game as i do in smash 4 i mean a small/minimal power buff shouldnt make that much of a disturbance/outcry! I hope you guys understand what i mean:D

 

[ROOOOY!]

Underrated in Brawl => overrated in sm4sh makes the gap between the iterations seem greater than it really is.

Some characters are viewed as a lot better simply because of changes to the physics, when their tools and attributes aren't discernably different from brawl for the most part (Jiggz for example, though she feels a lot better from her terrible brawl counterpart).

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

When a game gets patch...stuff like this happens. People will start wanting this and that nerf because they can't win. This happen to DOA. Tell me about why the OP is okay with nerfs to the upB, back throw, and sideB. Btw...my lord his new down smash is very stylish.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Yah, people want the patch because they don't know anything about sonic. He's not an obvious character imo, at least I don't have the ability to just pick up and play him, so anything people don't understand they always respond by just saying "NERF THIS NOW!"

 

[W O N D E R]

Don't know if people saw it but Sakurai said no more balance patches so Sonic won't be nerfed. Means no BSBS fix either though.

R.I.P Yoshi-Kong nerf

 

[Deathwish238]

Thank you for the responses, I agree with a lot of Camalange's points, especially the lack of match up experience when going up against sonic. So far I feel this game is more balanced than brawl, we'll see what happens in the future. At least sonic has more than 3 KO options now.

 

[Z1GMA]

Because he can mix up the his mix-ups that are inside his mix-up-mix-ups.

 

[Comorant]

Sonic has always just been one of those characters who gravitates the flow of the game toward himself while he's around which is nothing really new to fighting games. It's just something inherently frustrating that takes some extra time to adapt to when you play against most of the roster with a certain pace and this one character comes in and says "Sure you understand their rules, but now you need to learn MY rules." It takes longer to adapt to that particular match up and it ends up offputting even if the character itself isn't really overpowered.

That said with a character like Sonic, i don't feel confident enough in the development team to tweak the character without doing it in a way that ends up too harsh and removing what made him good in the first place.

 

[Golden Sun]

Sonic's the very annoying one, probably even annoying than Yoshi and Diddy, just because of his speed and power, he only needed the power, now his forward smash and up smash are ridiculous, it can possibly KO at 90% if fully charged, and that's when the sliding up smash comes in. Sonic needs a nerf, but only in knockback for his upsmash and forward, the rest are fine and perfect. I used to be a Sonic main until I noticed how powerful and fast he is.
1.His forward smash can kill like crazy as uncharged
2.Same as forward smash for his up smash
3.Spring now stage spikes
4.Gimps offstage like its nothing
5.Backair kills around 98 offstage with the red streak
6.Jump, jump, spring, upair can kill at almost any percent in the air, but hard to pull off
7.Dair spikes offstage and can recovery easily with a spring
8.Spindash takes almost no lag after the animation
9.Spindash shield cancel is a big problem for most people
10.Down air animation cancel is also a big problem for people who know how they even do it since the reaction time is small, etc, etc

For me, I would only take out: 1,2,3,6,8,10

 

[Kunoku]

Sonic's the very annoying one, probably even annoying than Yoshi and Diddy, just because of his speed and power, he only needed the power, now his forward smash and up smash are ridiculous, it can possibly KO at 90% if fully charged, and that's when the sliding up smash comes in. Sonic needs a nerf, but only in knockback for his upsmash and forward, the rest are fine and perfect. I used to be a Sonic main until I noticed how powerful and fast he is.
1.His forward smash can kill like crazy as uncharged
2.Same as forward smash for his up smash
3.Spring now stage spikes
4.Gimps offstage like its nothing
5.Backair kills around 98 offstage with the red streak
6.Jump, jump, spring, upair can kill at almost any percent in the air, but hard to pull off
7.Dair spikes offstage and can recovery easily with a spring
8.Spindash takes almost no lag after the animation
9.Spindash shield cancel is a big problem for most people
10.Down air animation cancel is also a big problem for people who know how they even do it since the reaction time is small, etc, etc

For me, I would only take out: 1,2,3,6,8,10

You do realize that if they take out that stuff he will just be Brawl Sonic right? The down air spike is easily avoidable in fact it might not even connect at all if your opponent is competent. Sonic needed this buff since he had trouble getting KOs in Brawl but that aside, who would possibly get hit with a fully charged smash attack anyway? Sonic doesn't really break shields too often and I've never faced anyone who would stand in front of me charging my up smash to the max ;-;

 

[Golden Sun]

You do realize that if they take out that stuff he will just be Brawl Sonic right? The down air spike is easily avoidable in fact it might not even connect at all if your opponent is competent. Sonic needed this buff since he had trouble getting KOs in Brawl but that aside, who would possibly get hit with a fully charged smash attack anyway? Sonic doesn't really break shields too often and I've never faced anyone who would stand in front of me charging my up smash to the max ;-;

Most Sonics charge up there Fsmash when your about to land on the edge, around 3/4 charged fully, and I know ALOT of players aka like @ Jasku who do a half charged up smash when your on the ledge, and it hits 65% of the time for most people.
Other wise than that, point taken, but they should really add a little bit of lag on the spindash, it has almost no lag at all from what I've seen.

What im trying to say is, its good that Sonic is now great in SSB4, but some of his moves are tricky to dodge since he's too fast and his grab gives him a little push, so its pretty easy to grab people by tricking them, like what I said because he's fast, he's hard to attack at. Like a Ganondorf vs Sonic, Sonic can run at Ganondorf, then just roll back and keep running forth and roll back, etc, etc and then grab Ganondorf whenever due to how Ganondorf's lag is, and its easy to gimp heavy weighted characters offstage, one spring from Sonic onto Ganondorf offstage can be the end of the match on how far he is.

 

[Kunoku]

Most Sonics charge up there Fsmash when your about to land on the edge, around 3/4 charged fully, and I know ALOT of players aka like @ Jasku who do a half charged up smash when your on the ledge, and it hits 65% of the time for most people.
Other wise than that, point taken, but they should really add a little bit of lag on the spindash, it has almost no lag at all from what I've seen.

I rarely hit those forward smashes and actually just chase them off stage. The up smash I can understand, but people don't learn from it :/ All it takes is a roll and bam your screwed because of the end lag from the up smash if your by the edge. Now reading the roll and up smashing there. . .GG haha

About the spin dash are you referring to the jump out of spin dash to an attack or the end of a spin dash on the ground. If it's the latter it does have ending lag more so if you charge it longer as it goes into the animation of his screech stop. If it's the former and you want to place a bit of lag there then I believe I would prefer Brawl Sonic imo

 

[Golden Sun]

I rarely hit those forward smashes and actually just chase them off stage. The up smash I can understand, but people don't learn from it :/ All it takes is a roll and bam your screwed because of the end lag from the up smash if your by the edge. Now reading the roll and up smashing there. . .GG haha

About the spin dash are you referring to the jump out of spin dash to an attack or the end of a spin dash on the ground. If it's the latter it does have ending lag more so if you charge it longer as it goes into the animation of his screech stop. If it's the former and you want to place a bit of lag there then I believe I would prefer Brawl Sonic imo

Im using Sonic right now and people are leaving when they lose or even win

Also, has anyone noticed there are now more Sonic players appearing on both the 3DS and Wii U version for FG? There were barely any Sonic players on FG for me back then.

 

[ImReallyFeelingIt]

Also, has anyone noticed there are now more Sonic players appearing on both the 3DS and Wii U version for FG? There were barely any Sonic players on FG for me back then.

I went on FG all the time when the 3DS came out and I only saw about 1 Sonic online every other day. Now you see a big increase of Sonic users online.

Though, that's to be expected since the game just got out back then and no one knew how Sonic played and if he was more different than he was from his Brawl self or not.

 

[Golden Sun]

I went on FG all the time when the 3DS came out and I only saw about 1 Sonic online every other day. Now you see a big increase of Sonic users online.

Though, that's to be expected since the game just got out back then and no one knew how Sonic played and if he was more different than he was from his Brawl self or not.

Let the spindash spam and homing attack spams begin.

 

[Kytos]

There's more to Sonic than just his Spin Dashes. Despite them being really good mix-ups and combo starters, relying on those really isn't a good idea. Sonic has the ability to chase anybody, even out the stage. Sonic can dictate the flow of the battle because of his speed, but Sonic has the best potential for a massive mindgame than other character due to how sudden you can stop his momentum.

I think he's fine the way he is. I normally don't ask for nerfs when it comes to characters I can't handle. I try to work around it. Though I don't know if this makes me ignorant or just plain stubborn. Lol

 

[Golden Sun]

There's more to Sonic than just his Spin Dashes. Despite them being really good mix-ups and combo starters, relying on those really isn't a good idea. Sonic has the ability to chase anybody, even out the stage. Sonic can dictate the flow of the battle because of his speed, but Sonic has the best potential for a massive mindgame than other character due to how sudden you can stop his momentum.

I think he's fine the way he is. I normally don't ask for nerfs when it comes to characters I can't handle. I try to work around it. Though I don't know if this makes me ignorant or just plain stubborn. Lol

Welcome to Smash Boards! (unless your a alt), I really want to see a Sonic player try and just use his regular attacks, punches, kicks, without the use of turning into a ball(nair, spindashes, etc), that would really mix people up, but of course 100% of people here use a spindash atleast once in a round.
Oh, you don't know what ignorant is until you meet a ignorant person like me, I complain mostly with small things, but I forget about them afterwards, really don't like my personality, but what your talking about is great.

 

[Camalange]

I really want to see a Sonic player try and just use his regular attacks, punches, kicks, without the use of turning into a ball(nair, spindashes, etc), that would really mix people up, but of course 100% of people here use a spindash atleast once in a round.

1. Then watch good Sonics.
2. You're asking people to stop using multiple assests of their character's moveset? What? I already berated you once today and I don't have the patience to tear apart how awful this entire page is...

Oh, you don't know what ignorant is until you meet a ignorant person like me, I complain mostly with small things, but I forget about them afterwards, really don't like my personality, but what your talking about is great.

You've made that quite clear.

At least you admit it? Does that make it better or worse?

I think this thread has run its course. I considered locking it a while ago, but it sorta died down again... But here we are.

I think the discussion had some healthy points at first. Debating the nature of a character is fine, but now it's getting redundant with johns and tears.