Quality of Life Buffs

[Theosmeo]

With the new Nintendo Direct approaching, it´s likely that we´ll hear about upcoming content(like the ballot char, more stages, ect.) and that means a patch. Aside from Charizard and Ike, very few mid/low tiers have been patched to relevance so I don´t expect anything big for Ganon. However, patch 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 have been general quality of life improvements which seems like a trend for Ganon. Here are my top 5 wants: (1 is the least, 5 is the most)

1. Less laggy jab, jab is pretty outclassed by ftilt in every department except for speed, but that´s only two frames. I only use it on missed techs for Link, Mewtwo, DK, Samus, and the Dog.

2. Better grab range, people say this might make Ganon have unwinnable MUs against some chars but I can´t really see who. It might make winning against Pika possible also, which would be a plus.

3. Dthrow does darkness effect, it might seem only aesthetic, but darkness greatly increases hitstun, meaning people could only really DI away, compensating for ganon's slow speed in following up this throw.

4. Nair comes out faster(at least frame 5), a good way to help ganon get out of skilless combos from goofy top tiers,* Nair would make comboing Ganon a scary prospect and make people take his landing more seriously.

5. Dark dive becomes more rewarding on hit, this move could use some buffs. It´s so cool to have two command grabs, but this one´s so useless. First, make it do at least 16 damage, he electrocutes his victim and then explodes but it only does 11 damage? Allow the player to control the angle they fly afterwards, it´s so weird that it puts Ganon in what is usually a bad position. Make the scrap hitbox at the top kill like Dark fists, or make it into a grab hitbox. Make the KB angle either straight up for followups(including a second dark dive) or a semi-spike. Make the startup 10 frames instead of 14 and make it have super armor from frame 4-10. Also make it kill before 300%, it should kill at like 180% center stage.

*Note: Salt

 

[Pikachutobal]

And here are the new Buffs: Ganondorf receives Super Armor on his legs from the 1 frame of the Volcano Kick

 

[Blobface]

Dark Dive oh my god Dark Dive. Rework it. Boost its damage to 15-18%, give it a horizontal angle (like F-tilt) with moderate BKB but low knockback growth, and let you act much much earlier out of a successful grab. Maybe allow you to control which way you jump off and very maybe have it give you your jump back. The amount of cool things you do offstage with this Dark Dive are limitless.

Seriously, Dark Dive is almost this amazing move from both practical and gameplay perspectives, but its gutted by a bunch of honestly nonsensical flaws, especially the lengthy lag on-hit.

 

[Didier337]

I agree with Theosmeo

Need:
-Fix characters falling out of D-smash if they're too close to Ganon in the first hit.

Want:
- A lot of knock back on U-throw,It's pretty uselesss and besides Ganon needs a kill throw.Maybe around 120 -150%?
- Less landing lag on U-air,for better follow ups, especially if you land the useful sour spot.
- A tiny bit more height in ganon's second jump
- Super armor on all his smash attacks
- Change grounded D-special to have transcendent priority,(Punish Projectile users and is completely unsafe on shield so it balance itself out)
- Make Flame choke -> D-tilt true on every character, Punish those who miss the tech and it's pretty silly that it's guaranteed on only some of the cast

 

[Theosmeo]

- Make Flame choke -> D-tilt true on every character, Punish those who miss the tech and it's pretty silly that it's guaranteed on only some of the cast

Interesting, I´d prefer if you couldn't confirm anything out of flame choke but it was untechable, to lead to chains and fsmashes.

Maybe allow you to control which way you jump off and very maybe have it give you your jump back.

This, offstage mindgames galore!

 

[Vermanubis]

I think DTilt just needs to be made universal after choke. I don't think the resultant shaving of 2 frames off of DTilt would be an unreasonable by-product either. Against characters whose getup is faster than DTilt, their domain of options is far too broad, and it mitigates our ability to meaninfully cover options, e.g. against Ike, we have to make hard, exact reads to get any mileage out of choke. Compare to, say, Mario, who has incentive to not get choked, for fear of missing the tech.

 

[Theosmeo]

I think DTilt just needs to be made universal after choke. I don't think the resultant shaving of 2 frames off of DTilt would be an unreasonable by-product either. Against characters whose getup is faster than DTilt, their domain of options is far too broad, and it mitigates our ability to meaninfully cover options, e.g. against Ike, we have to make hard, exact reads to get any mileage out of choke. Compare to, say, Mario, who has incentive to not get choked, for fear of missing the tech.

Well yeah, we also have ftilt after choke on Mario, which sets up devastating edgeguards, I always feel guilty though because it's a bit too easy. But everything about the Ike MU is scary(he's faster and longer than us) so it seems too hard. If they made choke to a ton of damage it would be independently rewarding though, and then limiting the opponents to 4 options(roll left, right, attack, or nothing) where 3 of those 4 options when read can lead into a 25% damage lethal at 50% Fsmash would be a great buff. That's why I think the removal of teching and confirmed follow ups would be balanced

 

[MGK]

What I want:

1. Fix dSmash so the first hit always links into the second hit.

2. Ganondorf has always had a short grab range, so I think it'll be better if the data was better.

- Standing grab comes out frame 7 - 8 and lags for 28 frames.
- Dash grab comes out frame 11 - 12 and lags for 33 frames.

I feel make the lag on each grab 3 - 5 frames faster or make dash grab come out faster as frame 11 - 12 is too slow for such a slow character.

3. Make fTilt and dTilt where his leg / boot is intangible. I feel this helps DK and Bowser a lot, so why not give it to ganondorf? (I really want this one as Ganondorf is a ranged based character)

4. Super armor to warlock punch in air and b-reversed. Another landing option for ganondorf would be nice.

 

[_Magus_]

Giving Ganondorf intangibility on his boots would be really nice, plus it's an easy buff for a big character like him. Actually, that may even cause him to shift up a few tiers just because he'd be able to exploit his reach even better. I'm still all for D tilt being guaranteed out of choke. Why allow Ganondorf's follow ups to be easily escapable, but sheik's to be guaranteed? The way teching works in this game gives a decided advantage to aerial combo characters, and it's not the most balanced thing ever. My main buff I want is a faster, shorter ranged jab (a la project M). However, a faster grab would be nice too. I just want Ganondorf to have some manner of quick panic option in close quarters that other characters have in spades (say, Falcon's Gentleman).

 

[verbatim]

Modifications to jab are my realistic hope, but hey, let's shoot for the S(tier)-tars,

Uair starts 3 frames earlier, is now a combo breaking move.

Aerial Wizkick beats luma upair (more intangibility)

Flame Choke untechable

Gets his frame 3 melee jab back

 

[GunGuts]

Wait, Theosmeo , you said in the OP that darkness increases hitstun. Is that true?
-----------------
I second Blobface . Dark Dive should be stronger and Ganon's grab range should be slightly increased.

 

[Theosmeo]

Wait, Theosmeo , you said in the OP that darkness increases hitstun. Is that true?
-----------------
I second Blobface . Dark Dive should be stronger and Ganon's grab range should be slightly increased.

Yeah, it has a x1.5 modifier, it's a shame because no move in the ENTIRE GAME(except for midna's assist trophy throw) that has darkness sets up any combos

EDIT: wait NVM Mewtwo

 

[Xinc]

Wanted buffs:

No arm hurt box as he Side-Bs - grabbing him out of side b is so cheesy
I would love removing the tech option out of grounded choke. But if it's too OP, i could stand with a forced universal down tilt on all.
Faster Jab. Melee Jab is fair.
Invincibility during the first few frames of WizKick. The startup is pretty awkward.
Forward tilt hitbox comes out before the hurt box
Better grab range. I mean, wtf. It makes no sense.
A bit faster startup on most moves
Added knock back and damage from both grab and uppercut of Up-B.
Super armor on the entire duration of Warlock Punch.
Reduced lag on Nair. Nair's startup is fine as is.
Down throw less knock back. Better confirms.

 

[King9999]

Wants:

-More priority on Wiz Foot. Ground version should either blow through projectiles instead of trade, or give him armor. If none of those options are given, then reduce end lag on ground wiz foot. Air version should have no hurtbox on the foot.
-First hit of D-Smash always leads into the 2nd hit.
-Increase the hitbox size of b-air so you can hit shorter characters on the ground more reliably (i.e. the majority of the cast)
-Increased grab range so you don't have to be point blank.
-Give him a kill throw
-Faster jab
-Vastly increased knockback on Dark Dive. That **** should be killing at 100%.

 

[Z1GMA]

Untechable Gerudo, dammit!

 

[Darkshadovv]

Want: Mostly Project M incarnation, a faster and farther reaching Ganondorf. Otherwise for his base sm4sh moveset:
-Melee run speed.
-Brawl air speed.
-Bigger shield that is less vulnerable to shield stabbing.
-Double jump height around Bowser's level.
-Electric on back air like Project M, darkness on forward air and entire grab game like Project M/Minus
-Make all sourspots and late hitboxes as powerful as their sweetspot (minus up air of course), primarily jab, up tilt, and neutral air. A 4% jab on a heavyweight is just ludicrous, up tilt's sourspots are so unrewarding, and the low knockback on his neutral air is kind of annoying when people survive it beyond realistic percents.
-10% frame 5 start-up and less laggy jab that matches other heavyweights.
-Slightly longer invincibility on dash attack to plow through projectiles better.
-Melee frame data and angling on forward tilt, with only the tip knocking at Sakurai angle like Project M.
-Intangible forward and down tilt on boot.
-Farther reaching forward smash, such as the explosion from Brawl Minus.
-Down smash linking together better, a lot less laggy, and the thigh hitbox that sends people forward removed.
-Short hop autocancel neutral air like in Melee and down air like in Brawl.
-Farther reaching forward and back airs from Melee.
-Less laggy forward air and maybe an autocancel window. Really annoying that it still goes into the ending animation from both jumps.
-Down air meteor smash power reverted to Brawl, meteor smashing at 0% (stupidly punishable if landed at 10% or less) and KOing at 100%. Sourspot angle reverted to meteor smash. No longer has transcendent priority so it can cancel projectiles.
-Grab reach around or slightly less than Bowser's.
-Forward and back throws KOing at reasonable percents near edge like DK and Bowser.
-Up throw comboing better and KOing at reasonable percents.
-Down throw angle more vertical or less knockback scaling for better follow-ups.
-Warlock Punch with armor on the entire start-up and in the air.
-Get rid of Warock Thrust and replace it with Project M's Dead Man's Volley or Minus's Ganoduken. A faster, armorless, extremely weak punch is so unhelpful.
-Flame Choke traveling faster and farther on ground and meteor smashes in air like Project M. Cancellable in the air like Minus and no longer causes helplessness like everyone else's side-B (customs affected). Flame Choke can tech-chase, so teching is fine.
-Flame Wave frame data, speed, and range matching previous Flame Choke. Also combos better at early percents and KOs more earlier.
-Less endlag on Flame Chain, no longer going through shielding opponents so all hits connect reliably, and KOs near the edge.
-Dark Dive damage 18% with forward tilt semi-spike angle, uppercut 12%, both killing around 120%~ from center of Final Destination. Super armor on start-up and slightly more horizontal reach like Dark Fists.
-Dark Fists damage 20%.
-Dark Vault damage 12%, KOing at 150%. Super armor on first vault and travels more vertically and horizontally.
-Melee Wizkick (except jump restore), including the meteor smash on all aerial's hitboxes. Maybe strengthened in some way so people die from the stage bounce.
-Wiz Dropkick killing at reasonable percents around the edge.
-Wiz Assault damage, knockback, endlag on par with Wizkick, along with launching people forward. Aerial interruptible earlier so using it off-stage isn't death.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Wants:

-More priority on Wiz Foot. Ground version should either blow through projectiles instead of trade, or give him armor. If none of those options are given, then reduce end lag on ground wiz foot. Air version should have no hurtbox on the foot.
-First hit of D-Smash always leads into the 2nd hit.
-Increase the hitbox size of b-air so you can hit shorter characters on the ground more reliably (i.e. the majority of the cast)
-Increased grab range so you don't have to be point blank.
-Give him a kill throw
-Faster jab
-Vastly increased knockback on Dark Dive. That **** should be killing at 100%.

I have read all the posts here and yours imo the only one i agree with 100% and seems fair.

 

[Didier337]

-Vastly increased knockback on Dark Dive. That **** should be killing at 100%.

That would be an amazing out of shield option. Especially against sonic

 

[MagiusNecros]

Wizard's Assault Aerial should break shields if both the air hit and shockwave hit land. Charge up time and long cooldown all say this should be a shield breaking move. But it isn't.