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PSA: Ease up on the Buster Monado

imnotdannyboy

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So as we all know, Buster increases damage dealt (by a whopping 40%)

However, I'm going to make the argument that it's the worst art. And here's why.

Fighting games are all about options; having a plethora of options at your disposal allows you to make better choices and trip up your opponents with a large display of actions. Just about all of Shulk's Arts increase his options. Jump allows him to recover effectively, dodge projectiles and negate spam, approach with tons of different attack combinations that he could never do otherwise, and edgeguard like a beast. Speed allows him to do a light rushdown, play a bit risky and get away with it, follow up attacks and grabs, and pivot like a mofo. Shield allows Shulk to survive a bit longer than he normally would, tacking on percent or eating attacks he should never be able to eat. And Smash, of course, allows him to kill on stage at percents he couldn't otherwise.

Interestingly, Buster does none of these.

The benefit to buster is purely a numbers game; when Shulk hits, he tacks on some extra percent. This seems nice, and were it not for the drawbacks (both innately within Buster and by not having another Art active) it'd seem wonderful. But the drawbacks are quite harsh and often ignored. First and foremost, opponents also tack on extra damage. If Shulk and his opponent are trading hits evenly, activating Buster will result in roughly a net difference in percent of zero! All it'll do is raise the percent of both players faster! I believe Shulk gets a slight edge in damage vs his vulnerability increase, but this is like a difference of 1-5% damage. It's nil.

The problem with this is that Shulk has other perfectly good Art options and doesn't need to be wasting time on Buster. Anyone who's played Magic The Gathering can attest; if you have a card that deals 2 damage to yourself and your opponent, nine times out of ten that's a junk card. For the purpose of this analogy (don't wanna delve to deep into M:TG metagame here) the advantage gain is zero since you're both losing life, and now you're down a perfectly good card. That card could have been something to give you an advantage (i.e. any other Art) but now it's not.

Even worse, however, is the change to Shulk's knockback in Buster. The reduction in knockback is severe, and while this may seem wonderful for Shulk's combo game, it also reduced hitstun. This means that a lot of Shulk's natural followups are now impossible; Upthrow to utilt can be jumped out of, bthrow to anything can be ignored, AC nair to ftilt can be blocked. They're all trash. This is less prominent at higher percents, but people don't use Buster at high percents. They use Smash! Hell, most people use Buster at the very start of the match, which is totally counterproductive! When both players are at 0 percent, the atrocious knockback of Buster essentially gives your opponent a new set of possible reactions. You nair them, they can eat it like a boss and grab or tilt you. You throw them, they can react with just about any aerial, depending on the character. Your Art is actually giving THEM options!

There's a place for Buster. Generally if I know I can land hits I'll switch to it. This is often using it to cancel a fair into a grab, in which the pummel knocks on a lot of percent and puts my uthrow into utilt range. Or if I'm edgeguarding but I'm not confident in my ability to seal a stock, I'll swap to Buster to tack on extra percent and concede the kill. However, overall Buster is the worst Art as it doesn't actually give a significant advantage, and blocks out the usage of your other Arts.

Do yourself a favor, use Speed or Jump from the start, and dictate your playstyle on those.

Speed will allow you to pull off some attractive turnaround grabs and titls, and open up options that rely on you catching your opponent off guard. Shulk is a slow character, so when suddenly he's faster than Sonic your opponent won't know what to do for a beat or two.

Jump allows you to gimp and approach like no other. You can fullhop fair and nair before you hit the ground. If you can land directly behind the opponent, the nair should hit them and they won't be able to react. You can also, obviously, jump off the stage and do any number of crazy edgeguarding moves (careful with nair, it's easy to forget how long it lasts since it always cancels).

Shield is safe after taking a stock at high percent, and Smash is fine if you have a light character at 50% and you want to seal the stock quickly. Just, ease up on Buster.
 
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It's a defensive art. Not an offensive one. Spacing with it and playing safe is pretty much the whole point of buster. Additionally, the very fact that you take more damage in this stance gives you more of a reason to play defensively. You succeed in doing this, the reward is great. You play dumb with it, you're ****ed. You only get to realize how valuable it is if you play with it defensively.

I'll admit, buster is a risky art to use. Hell, it's arguable or a fact that it probably isn't worth the risk. I already said this, this art is double edge'd. Very helpful tip, if buster isn't doing you any favors in a match, just don't use it, ignore it for the whole match and stick to jump or speed. This helped me realize how bad it was against characters like Dorf, DDD, DHD and Little Mac.

I also get where you're coming from. Yeah, buster lacks options. I'll actually agree with that. Compared to his other arts, it's purely for damage racking (And that's also the reason why it's my favorite)

Lastly, it's all about personal preference. Some people want to start out with buster and rack up damage fast. Some prefer the utility given by speed and jump. Shulk's a character that's mostly played depending on how the player wants to play him. If buster is working for them, I wouldn't bother. If it isn't, this thread might be really eye opening for them.



I'm glad you made a PSA about buster even though it's my favorite art to use (And I still do well with it)
 
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imnotdannyboy

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Yeah, I should clarify. I don't think Buster is unusable, and in matchups against short-ranged characters it can be quite strong as Shulk can zone them out and get in tons of free hits. I just see everyone start off with Buster and I feel that this isn't necessarily the right course of action. That said, the game is less than a week old, and experimentation will dictate the actual best options.
 
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Yeah, I should clarify. I don't think Buster is unusable, and in matchups against short-ranged characters it can be quite strong as Shulk can zone them out and get in tons of free hits. I just seem everyone start off with Buster and I feel that this isn't necessarily the right course of action. That said, the game is less than a week old, and experimentation will dictate the actual best options.
Yeah. Everyone seems to start with buster because that's the first impression they got from the trailer

I feel bad for the Shulk players in FG that don't go here and just assume that Shulk has a ton of combos with buster art. They're usually the ones that get curb stomped
 

Masonomace

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Good read @ imnotdannyboy imnotdannyboy
The one vital piece of advice for using Buster against certain characters is weight class. Buster would do better against a lighter-weight character than a heavier class character because light-weights suffer more from knockback, which is what Buster lacks along with the reduced hitstun. That doesn't mean all light-weight characters are susceptible to Buster, since other factors like gravity go tie into a character's weight, but that's my two cents.
Heavy characters that have high gravity & floaty falling speed are susceptible to Buster as well, & a light-weight character with high gravity & floaty falling speed are the perfect candidates for Buster early %. So I can't wait to see data on every character about this so we can finally know just who's weak against Buster & who isn't.
 
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Good read @ imnotdannyboy imnotdannyboy
The one vital piece of advice for using Buster against certain characters is weight class. Buster would do better against a lighter-weight character than a heavier class character because light-weights suffer more from knockback, which is what Buster lacks along with the reduced hitstun. That doesn't mean all light-weight characters are susceptible to Buster, since other factors like gravity go tie into a character's weight, but that's my two cents.
Heavy characters that have high gravity & floaty falling speed are susceptible to Buster as well, & a light-weight character with high gravity & floaty falling speed are the perfect candidates for Buster early %. So I can't wait to see data on every character about this so we can finally know just who's weak against Buster & who isn't.
Actually, it has absolutely nothing to do with weight class. Buster is still very much 110% usable against Bowser and Charizard but it sucks against light weights like DHD

It's purely dependent on whether it's worth it or not. Using it against Duck Hunt Dog specifically is bad. Not worth it. Taking more damage from his zoning is horrible. Against Dedede? No way dude. I'll need jump or speed to get around the gordos. Dorf? Oh hell no. He's surprisingly good and getting wrecked by a chain of flame chokes and d-tilts? Um.... I'll pass.
 

FlareHabanero

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It's useable on some of the lighter/smaller characters, but at the same time I wouldn't recommend Buster for them, especially from experience with Little Mac and Sonic. For the former, you need the knockback in order to force Mac in the air so you can cripple him, while for the latter all you're doing is make Sonic rake up damage faster. In those situations Speed (or even going Vanilla in the case of Mac) is more practical since essencially you can even out the playing field more while not sacrificing your defenses.
 
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Scoliosis Jones

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This is certainly an interesting read. I usually go Buster in most cases to inflict damage, and I go on the offensive most of the time. Maybe I should reconsider my strategies...
 

Deathcarter

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I like this thread. I personally haven't been using Buster all that much as I pretty much always prefer the advantages conferred up by either Speed or Jump as I prefer to play more offensively and find getting past my opponents defenses a much bigger priority than pure damage racking.
 

Starfall11

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Buster is primarily defensive, as the second post states. It's an extremely useful art. But usually not early match. It can work on light characters who suffer more knockback. But it's great to switch to when your opponent is around 40-70%. At this point, you can play around the reduced knockback. Do combos that normally wouldn't be possible with Vanilla Shulk, and rack up damage very quickly.

I find myself starting a match with Buster when I'm feeling arrogant or want to really insult my opponent. I win most of my matches in For Glory, so I'll even start with Buster against Ganandorf and some of the heavy hitters. If I outplay them, I stick with it and finish the match quickly. But if I realize they're actually a skilled player, I'll turn it off and go into Jump or Speed. It's useful at mid-percents though. Especially when you have a lead.

I'll also go into Buster when I'm at a very high percent and I seal a stock. Shield works great. But I'll use Buster when Shield is in cool down, go on the defense, and vice versa. All of his arts are useful, I wouldn't say any of them are terrible as long as you know when and how to use it.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Defensiv? No I dont feel that.
Every single monado art is a double edged sword.
Every single one of them *can* make you easier to kill, that includes Shield.

Buster is momentum based. Its a very straight forward art. "Do I have momentum? Can I maintain momentum? Can I create momentum". You will take more damage and as a result more knockback when in Buster....if you get hit.

Has anyone ever played "Doubles or quits?" in cards?
It is similar to that except this isn't chance based, it's based on your actions and your opponents actions.
I'll throw buster on when im at 110% very conscious of enhanced danger that puts me in. Then I'll strin 3-5 hits on my opponent and I just created a more favourable situation for myself.

1 thing to note is that Speed *decreases* your damage and your jump height. Less damage also affects your knockback.
The very idea that "if you and your opponent hit each other equally means no pay-off" only works if we are trading equally. Buster can be a disastrous choice or it can be the best one. Its up to you to decide the momentum you have and the momentum you can create.
 

imnotdannyboy

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Defensiv? No I dont feel that.
Every single monado art is a double edged sword.
Every single one of them *can* make you easier to kill, that includes Shield.

Buster is momentum based. Its a very straight forward art. "Do I have momentum? Can I maintain momentum? Can I create momentum". You will take more damage and as a result more knockback when in Buster....if you get hit.

Has anyone ever played "Doubles or quits?" in cards?
It is similar to that except this isn't chance based, it's based on your actions and your opponents actions.
I'll throw buster on when im at 110% very conscious of enhanced danger that puts me in. Then I'll strin 3-5 hits on my opponent and I just created a more favourable situation for myself.

1 thing to note is that Speed *decreases* your damage and your jump height. Less damage also affects your knockback.
The very idea that "if you and your opponent hit each other equally means no pay-off" only works if we are trading equally. Buster can be a disastrous choice or it can be the best one. Its up to you to decide the momentum you have and the momentum you can create.

The problem is, if you're trading favorably with your opponent then you're already winning. Sure, Buster would put you in more of a lead. But so would most of the other Arts through the creation of more options. The advantage doesn't come from the Art in this case, it comes from the fact that you're trading favorably.

I mean, Buster isn't bad if you're trying to seal the deal. But if you're trading favorably, you're winning without Buster. And you could probably do at least as good with any other Art.

But this isn't specifically addressing the favorable trade scenario. This post refers to those who start out with Buster, or use it excessively. People are saying that when they feel cocky they'll go into Buster, and that's fine. But doesn't that say something about the move, in that you can only shift into it when you're certain you're going to win? In these cases it's not WRONG to shift into Buster, and I catch myself doing it all the time. But I don't think that provides any support for Buster being good. I switch to it when I know I can win and want to accelerate the game. If I was in a tournament setting against an evenly skilled player, I would rarely switch to Buster, knowing that I'd likely be punished and the advantage it provides wouldn't be enough to reliably offset the disadvantage.
 
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Starfall11

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I'm not saying Buster is a defensive art. You take more damage and (possibly) knockback from it. But it encourages the player to play more defensively. And it is very useful. Yes, you're already winning when you're trading favorably with an opponent. But more damage can mean ending the match sooner.

This allows you to control the flow of a match. Something other characters can't always do as well. It's a choice of Mobility (Speed and Jump), defensive play (Shield), and damage (Buster). Or a straight off high risk KO (Smash). Every one of them does make it easier for you to be KOed in one form or another. With Shield, your recovery is awful. Almost as bad as Little Mac's horizontally, if not worse.
 

Masonomace

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Speed's setbacks in terms of recovery is the least noticeable. It does decrease Jump Height, but the regular MArt Speed isn't that bad of a decrease when you ofc compare the Jump Height to Shield or to HMASp (Hyper Monado Speed).
 
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TBH, the only art that feels double edge'd is buster but the damage is a nice trade off if you do it right.

Jump, despite having worse defenses than buster, gives you a lot of options especially with the additional air mobility and n-air+grab tactics. Speed's massive jump nerf is actually a buff more than a nerf if anything. SHFF n-air is much more ********.

Smash... Well... It's another double edge'd sword. It's basically buster but lower weight, higher knockback, piss poor damage and normal defense
 

ChronoPenguin

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Jump is easier to blast KO then Vanilla. You decrease the % required to kill you when in Jump. It's not without faults. Part of the reason I'll Switch to jump, recover and switch out because I can't afford to eat an attack in Jump.
Speed has a 10% damage penalty. This creates a 50% damage differential between Speed and Buster. You aren't simply "Winning more faster" A Buster Shulk does 50% more damage than you, this means the number of hits required to successfully get them in K.O range is less.

This works out to more then just "Winning faster". If I n-air to D-tilt on buster, or vision counter a charizard Rock-Smash on Buster I've maximized my reward of success. i don't do more damage for Vision countering Rock-Smash with Speed, I do less.
The same opportunity presented itself to both arts, and speed was rewarded less. Now the buster shulk goes "Wow I did a ton of damage...time to close the deal" and cancels his art to Jump/Speed/Shield/Smash/Vanilla. If you started out in speed there, you punished the Zard for less damage. Buster works out because it becomes redundant once they reach higher %'s. You are utilizing Buster to get them into those ranges which switches things up because now instead of follow ups you\re aiming for your kills and edgeguards.

Lets consider Jigglypuffs rest, one of the highest Risk/Reward skills in this game. You could never use Rest because you are scared of the risk, even dismiss it as a bad ability; You could however weigh the Risk and decide to go for broke and win big.
"Rest just makes you win faster" The reality is, if some jigglypuffs didnt use Rest they may not have won at all.

Damage % brings psychological factors, we know that first hand as we switch to Shield monado based on mental conditioning that we are high % and that they will hit us. Afterall I've scored my fair share of Kills in Monado Shield despite not getinghit since I put the art in. In such a case I didn't need Shield at all but I put it on because I didn't know the future (but shulk does). Same is true for other opponents, they see their % they change their style of play. The damage caused by buster can by itself cause the opponent to misplay and create further openings for you.

Every Monado art has problems. Consider Buster like Rest, consider Buster like Flare Blitz.
 
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Masonomace

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Jump is easier to blast KO then Vanilla. You decrease the % required to kill you when in Jump. It's not without faults. Part of the reason I'll Switch to jump, recover and switch out because I can't afford to eat an attack in Jump.
Speed has a 10% damage penalty. This creates a 50% damage differential between Speed and Buster. You aren't simply "Winning more faster" A Buster Shulk does 50% more damage than you, this means the number of hits required to successfully get them in K.O range is less.

This works out to more then just "Winning faster". If I n-air to D-tilt on buster, or vision counter a charizard Rock-Smash on Buster I've maximized my reward of success. i don't do more damage for Vision countering Rock-Smash with Speed, I do less.
The same opportunity presented itself to both arts, and speed was rewarded less. Now the buster shulk goes "Wow I did a ton of damage...time to close the deal" and cancels his art to Jump/Speed/Shield/Smash/Vanilla. If you started out in speed there, you punished the Zard for less damage. Buster works out because it becomes redundant once they reach higher %'s. You are utilizing Buster to get them into those ranges which switches things up because now instead of follow ups you\re aiming for your kills and edgeguards.

Lets consider Jigglypuffs rest, one of the highest Risk/Reward skills in this game. You could never use Rest because you are scared of the risk, even dismiss it as a bad ability; You could however weigh the Risk and decide to go for broke and win big.
"Rest just makes you win faster" The reality is, if some jigglypuffs didnt use Rest they may not have won at all.

Damage % brings psychological factors, we know that first hand as we switch to Shield monado based on mental conditioning that we are high % and that they will hit us. Afterall I've scored my fair share of Kills in Monado Shield despite not getinghit since I put the art in. In such a case I didn't need Shield at all but I put it on because I didn't know the future (but shulk does). Same is true for other opponents, they see their % they change their style of play. The damage caused by buster can by itself cause the opponent to misplay and create further openings for you.

Every Monado art has problems. Consider Buster like Rest, consider Buster like Flare Blitz.
Well said, however your last sentence about Buster's consideration to Rest & FB is what I disagree with. Though that's extreme nit-picking with your post so it's nothing.

Buster vs Speed when giving both Arts the same opportunity & both succeeding in their mission to punish it goes without saying about Buster, because it was the more ideal rewarding moment. Though Buster doesn't chase down & follow up as well as Speed does to keep the momentum going, it's all situational to begin with anyhow. The play-styles of Speed & Buster are fairly different but regardless, your point is well-informing.
 
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Jade_Rock55

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I stopped using buster when I noticed less hitstun.If they are at 50 to 60ish then I go buster get them to 100ish and smash them.At low percents it just doesn't work...
 

ChronoPenguin

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^ Exactly how I feel.
About 40-60% I start considering buster, unless it's someone where follow-up wasn't in the plan to begin with.
Get 3 hits on them, boom they're 100. Back to Speed/Vanilla/Smash.

Im honestly running into Vanilla a Lot.
Get knocked off, 3x B Jump, Leap back to stage, 2x Vanilla. Could go to Speed but im finding a lot of value in Vanilla right now and Art's are starting to feel more and more like Backslash/Airslash/Counter in that it's just situational. Vanilla is life.
 

imnotdannyboy

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Jump is easier to blast KO then Vanilla. You decrease the % required to kill you when in Jump. It's not without faults. Part of the reason I'll Switch to jump, recover and switch out because I can't afford to eat an attack in Jump.
Speed has a 10% damage penalty. This creates a 50% damage differential between Speed and Buster. You aren't simply "Winning more faster" A Buster Shulk does 50% more damage than you, this means the number of hits required to successfully get them in K.O range is less.

This works out to more then just "Winning faster". If I n-air to D-tilt on buster, or vision counter a charizard Rock-Smash on Buster I've maximized my reward of success. i don't do more damage for Vision countering Rock-Smash with Speed, I do less.
The same opportunity presented itself to both arts, and speed was rewarded less. Now the buster shulk goes "Wow I did a ton of damage...time to close the deal" and cancels his art to Jump/Speed/Shield/Smash/Vanilla. If you started out in speed there, you punished the Zard for less damage. Buster works out because it becomes redundant once they reach higher %'s. You are utilizing Buster to get them into those ranges which switches things up because now instead of follow ups you\re aiming for your kills and edgeguards.

Lets consider Jigglypuffs rest, one of the highest Risk/Reward skills in this game. You could never use Rest because you are scared of the risk, even dismiss it as a bad ability; You could however weigh the Risk and decide to go for broke and win big.
"Rest just makes you win faster" The reality is, if some jigglypuffs didnt use Rest they may not have won at all.

Damage % brings psychological factors, we know that first hand as we switch to Shield monado based on mental conditioning that we are high % and that they will hit us. Afterall I've scored my fair share of Kills in Monado Shield despite not getinghit since I put the art in. In such a case I didn't need Shield at all but I put it on because I didn't know the future (but shulk does). Same is true for other opponents, they see their % they change their style of play. The damage caused by buster can by itself cause the opponent to misplay and create further openings for you.

Every Monado art has problems. Consider Buster like Rest, consider Buster like Flare Blitz.
You're right in that every Monado art has problems, and that Buster has utility.

The problem with the 50% damage argument, or any 'it does more damage' argument is that the tradeoff is more or less equal. The swing in your damage dealt vs your opponents damage dealt when in Buster mode is 20%. That means that your damage in Buster is 20% more than your opponents damage when you're in Buster, A nair to ftilt deals about 18-19 percent. With Buster on it's 25. That's 6 more damage. You need to wring that 6 damage for all it's worth in order to get value out of it. To put it in perspective, if you can land 3 nair-tilts every minute (which i'd say is pretty generous to do consistently) without Buster you'll get your opponent to about 75% with Buster. That's 58% or something outside of Buster. After 2 minutes, that's 106 vs 140, or a 34% advantage.. This is a valid advantage, but it's not a HUGE advantage. Both are kill range, but the 140 is a bit of a more guaranteed kill. For a standard 8 minute tournament match, assuming we go till the last second, this is 4 times a match, or a 136% lead for using Buster over Vanilla.. for the entire match. In other words, only counting the advantages of Buster, and ignoring the opportunity cost of lost combos and plays done with other Arts, we'll get a single stock every eight minutes, which is far longer than most matches go. And this isn't even a guaranteed stock; it's just the rough percent equivilant of a stock. Now add back in the disadvantages of extra damage received, combos lost and other Art advantages untapped, and you get a bit of an unimpressive special.

This is quite abstract, but I think it does a decent job of mathematically showing the flaws of Buster as an ability to be used frequently, rather than tactically.

Part of the problem with Buster is at a core it requires you to be winning. It rewards you for doing well, while penalizing you for doing poorly. But how many games are you going to win when you're already doing well, vs the ones that you're going to lose when doing poorly?

Compare this to an alternate Buster that decreases damage taken by 40% while lowering damage dealt by 20%. This one penalizes you for doing well (versus Vanilla) while rewarding you for doing poorly (again, versus vanilla). From a game design standpoint this move is broken, not because it gives Shulk too large of an advantage, but because it gives a less experienced player a safety net (which is likely why we got the version of Buster that we have). However, if our current Buster was replaced with this one, I think I'd find myself going to it almost every single game. If I'm losing I lose less hard and have a lot of space for a comeback. But if I'm clearly more skilled than the other player, I'm only missing out on that 20% more damage, and I can always swap out if I feel it's unnecessary.

Here's the important bit. If I'm more skilled than an opponent, I'm content with dealing 20% less damage for a bit because I know I can make it up no problem. I'm likely going to win anyways. Now if I'm a less skilled player and I'm taking 20% more damage, even for a bit, this is a serious problem. I need every percent advantage possible in order to win. This leaves the advantage that Buster gives slightly redundant, as the only games it'll help are ones I'm already likely to win. Additionally, this safer , theoretical Buster actually fits well into Shulk's playstyle. Shulk as a zoning character, which means he's attempting to slowly add up percent without taking much. Therefore, the theoretical Buster helps cover your mistakes as a player, and reduce or even negate the gain in percent difference your opponent would have on you. I would love a Buster Monado on Captain Falcon or another rushdown character, as their goal is to force percent on their opponent, giving a bit less regard for their own percent than a spacing character would have. Should Shulk ever somehow shift into a rushdown character, I feel like the Buster monado will be stronger. Will I use it when I'm alread winning? Absolutely, as long as I'm like, 90% aware that I'll trade hits with my opponent favorably. It helps secure my advantage!

This is where I think 'individual playstyle' comes into effect in frequency of Buster use. I'm only comfortable using it when I'm very sure that it'll help me out. Many cockier players will use it when they're, say, 70 or 60% sure that they'll trade hits favorably. The most cocky of players will use it when they feel like they're as good as their opponent. I think this can be compared to 'styling' on an opponent (albeit less flasy). You have no way of knowing that it will benefit you, and there's almost an equal chance that it will penalize you. I totally understand this mindset, and in Melee I often prioritize styling over actually doing well, and I'll do a lot flashy offstage plays. They pay off, like, MAYBE half of the time.

But the original post is about improvement of Shulk play. I feel like blindly going Buster against an equal skilled opponent couldn't possibly IMPROVE someone's Shulk play, as their win ratio won't increase when they activate a mode that offers a similar advantage to their opponent as it does them self, especially when doing it in lieu of another mode.

Also note, this post is TOTALLY ignoring the tactical use of Buster. If I'm up against a matchup of an equally skilled opponent, but by nature of the matchup I know I'm going to be doing more damage to him/her, I'll be more willing to put on Buster in order to press my advantage further. The problem is, with the zoning and spacing matchup that Shulk has, he doesn't actually have a lot of matchups like this. Or rather, those matchups aren't quite as obvious. Perhaps in the future, as the metagame develops, we'll find some matchups that are safe for Shulk to go Buster right off the bat, but personally, if I'm aiming to win and get better, I'm going to make smarter, more calculated decisions with my Monado.

As for Rest and Flare Blitz, I feel like the two can't be quite compared. Rests generally are done in reaction to a roll or as a part of a combo, where they are a bit more guaranteed. Most players don't *often* throw out rests in hope that it'll hit, and if they do I'd argue that it's a poor play, or part of a REALLY hard read. Again, this would be 'styling' and not actually proper play.

The problem with Arts is that they can't be done reactionally. If I could turn on Buster for a single tilt that I know is going to land, either due it it being part of a string or a response to a roll, I absolutely would. But I can't. I have to have Buster on beforehand, and unfortunately, I can't read my opponent 10 or 15 seconds into the future. Most good Puffs aren't going for a rest as a 'go big or go home play' They have a pretty good idea that it's going to hit. It doesn't even have to be a 100% guarantee, but just throwing it out there, like someone would throw Buster out against an opponent they don't know, favors luck over skill.

The psychological factor is valid, though I'd argue that this could work against you as well. If I turn on Buster then start taking damage, I'm gonna feel a bit incentivised to swap out, maybe go to Shield, and play defensively. The psychological factor is just as much of a hinderance than an advantage.


This wasn't supposed to be so long. Sorry about that, hope you read anyways.
 

imnotdannyboy

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^ Exactly how I feel.
About 40-60% I start considering buster, unless it's someone where follow-up wasn't in the plan to begin with.
Get 3 hits on them, boom they're 100. Back to Speed/Vanilla/Smash.

Im honestly running into Vanilla a Lot.
Get knocked off, 3x B Jump, Leap back to stage, 2x Vanilla. Could go to Speed but im finding a lot of value in Vanilla right now and Art's are starting to feel more and more like Backslash/Airslash/Counter in that it's just situational. Vanilla is life.

Sorry for the double post, but the above post is totally unrelated. How on earth do you cancel your art in two Bs? It always takes me 3. In order to go from turning off an art into turning on Jump, it takes me 4. Am I doing something wrong?
 

ChronoPenguin

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You're right in that every Monado art has problems, and that Buster has utility.

The problem with the 50% damage argument, or any 'it does more damage' argument is that the tradeoff is more or less equal. The swing in your damage dealt vs your opponents damage dealt when in Buster mode is 20%. That means that your damage in Buster is 20% more than your opponents damage when you're in Buster, A nair to ftilt deals about 18-19 percent. With Buster on it's 25. That's 6 more damage. You need to wring that 6 damage for all it's worth in order to get value out of it. To put it in perspective, if you can land 3 nair-tilts every minute (which i'd say is pretty generous to do consistently) without Buster you'll get your opponent to about 75% with Buster. That's 58% or something outside of Buster. After 2 minutes, that's 106 vs 140, or a 34% advantage.. This is a valid advantage, but it's not a HUGE advantage. Both are kill range, but the 140 is a bit of a more guaranteed kill. For a standard 8 minute tournament match, assuming we go till the last second, this is 4 times a match, or a 136% lead for using Buster over Vanilla.. for the entire match. In other words, only counting the advantages of Buster, and ignoring the opportunity cost of lost combos and plays done with other Arts, we'll get a single stock every eight minutes, which is far longer than most matches go. And this isn't even a guaranteed stock; it's just the rough percent equivilant of a stock. Now add back in the disadvantages of extra damage received, combos lost and other Art advantages untapped, and you get a bit of an unimpressive special.

This is quite abstract, but I think it does a decent job of mathematically showing the flaws of Buster as an ability to be used frequently, rather than tactically.

Part of the problem with Buster is at a core it requires you to be winning. It rewards you for doing well, while penalizing you for doing poorly. But how many games are you going to win when you're already doing well, vs the ones that you're going to lose when doing poorly?

Compare this to an alternate Buster that decreases damage taken by 40% while lowering damage dealt by 20%. This one penalizes you for doing well (versus Vanilla) while rewarding you for doing poorly (again, versus vanilla). From a game design standpoint this move is broken, not because it gives Shulk too large of an advantage, but because it gives a less experienced player a safety net (which is likely why we got the version of Buster that we have). However, if our current Buster was replaced with this one, I think I'd find myself going to it almost every single game. If I'm losing I lose less hard and have a lot of space for a comeback. But if I'm clearly more skilled than the other player, I'm only missing out on that 20% more damage, and I can always swap out if I feel it's unnecessary.

Here's the important bit. If I'm more skilled than an opponent, I'm content with dealing 20% less damage for a bit because I know I can make it up no problem. I'm likely going to win anyways. Now if I'm a less skilled player and I'm taking 20% more damage, even for a bit, this is a serious problem. I need every percent advantage possible in order to win. This leaves the advantage that Buster gives slightly redundant, as the only games it'll help are ones I'm already likely to win. Additionally, this safer , theoretical Buster actually fits well into Shulk's playstyle. Shulk as a zoning character, which means he's attempting to slowly add up percent without taking much. Therefore, the theoretical Buster helps cover your mistakes as a player, and reduce or even negate the gain in percent difference your opponent would have on you. I would love a Buster Monado on Captain Falcon or another rushdown character, as their goal is to force percent on their opponent, giving a bit less regard for their own percent than a spacing character would have. Should Shulk ever somehow shift into a rushdown character, I feel like the Buster monado will be stronger. Will I use it when I'm alread winning? Absolutely, as long as I'm like, 90% aware that I'll trade hits with my opponent favorably. It helps secure my advantage!

This is where I think 'individual playstyle' comes into effect in frequency of Buster use. I'm only comfortable using it when I'm very sure that it'll help me out. Many cockier players will use it when they're, say, 70 or 60% sure that they'll trade hits favorably. The most cocky of players will use it when they feel like they're as good as their opponent. I think this can be compared to 'styling' on an opponent (albeit less flasy). You have no way of knowing that it will benefit you, and there's almost an equal chance that it will penalize you. I totally understand this mindset, and in Melee I often prioritize styling over actually doing well, and I'll do a lot flashy offstage plays. They pay off, like, MAYBE half of the time.

But the original post is about improvement of Shulk play. I feel like blindly going Buster against an equal skilled opponent couldn't possibly IMPROVE someone's Shulk play, as their win ratio won't increase when they activate a mode that offers a similar advantage to their opponent as it does them self, especially when doing it in lieu of another mode.

Also note, this post is TOTALLY ignoring the tactical use of Buster. If I'm up against a matchup of an equally skilled opponent, but by nature of the matchup I know I'm going to be doing more damage to him/her, I'll be more willing to put on Buster in order to press my advantage further. The problem is, with the zoning and spacing matchup that Shulk has, he doesn't actually have a lot of matchups like this. Or rather, those matchups aren't quite as obvious. Perhaps in the future, as the metagame develops, we'll find some matchups that are safe for Shulk to go Buster right off the bat, but personally, if I'm aiming to win and get better, I'm going to make smarter, more calculated decisions with my Monado.

As for Rest and Flare Blitz, I feel like the two can't be quite compared. Rests generally are done in reaction to a roll or as a part of a combo, where they are a bit more guaranteed. Most players don't *often* throw out rests in hope that it'll hit, and if they do I'd argue that it's a poor play, or part of a REALLY hard read. Again, this would be 'styling' and not actually proper play.

The problem with Arts is that they can't be done reactionally. If I could turn on Buster for a single tilt that I know is going to land, either due it it being part of a string or a response to a roll, I absolutely would. But I can't. I have to have Buster on beforehand, and unfortunately, I can't read my opponent 10 or 15 seconds into the future. Most good Puffs aren't going for a rest as a 'go big or go home play' They have a pretty good idea that it's going to hit. It doesn't even have to be a 100% guarantee, but just throwing it out there, like someone would throw Buster out against an opponent they don't know, favors luck over skill.

The psychological factor is valid, though I'd argue that this could work against you as well. If I turn on Buster then start taking damage, I'm gonna feel a bit incentivised to swap out, maybe go to Shield, and play defensively. The psychological factor is just as much of a hinderance than an advantage.


This wasn't supposed to be so long. Sorry about that, hope you read anyways.
I can only speak from my experience.
I've utilized Buster against opponents I believe to have a stronger grasp of ssb4 then myself. Especially during some of my playtimes I run into quite a few japanese players. Some of these blatantly have more experience. For me, Buster is at times the way to *level* the playing field. It is one thing to say if we are trading equally I get a 20% advantage.
However if I make the initial trade (which is my hope when I place Buster) then if I make a favourable situation for myself (eg Nair-Dtilt/ U-throw-U-air). Then I can *turn off* Buster and from that point on Buster was a momentary advantage without the drawback. Like I said in the above post im finding a lot of value in Vanilla for my play so I try not to stay in Arts for their full duration anymore. If I switch to buster, quick assault try to get my moneys worth and then get out. If I switch to Smash it's the same deal. For me the probability of something goes wrong the longer you maintain the Art. Monado Smash is *incredibly* Risky, the amount of things that have killed me in Smash that would not kill me in Vanilla have made me very hesitant of it. If I Switch to Smash, I basically give myself about a 5s Window to make something of it, and if I haven't capitalized, then it's back to Vanilla or Jump to hope for an edge guard.

To my playstyle, Buster works because you aim to make primary contact and then remove it before it becomes a boxing match between Buster Shulk vs his opponent.
Sorry for the double post, but the above post is totally unrelated. How on earth do you cancel your art in two Bs? It always takes me 3. In order to go from turning off an art into turning on Jump, it takes me 4. Am I doing something wrong?

Monado arts cancel if you rapidly press B. This rapid press can be detected within 2 pushes. If you would like go to training mode. Press B once, this will put you into Monado Jump. Press B twice as fast as you can and it will cancel for you.
 
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imnotdannyboy

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Monado arts cancel if you rapidly press B. This rapid press can be detected within 2 pushes. If you would like go to training mode. Press B once, this will put you into Monado Jump. Press B twice as fast as you can and it will cancel for you.
No matter how many times I do it it only gets done in three presses. Everyone else I've seen post about it says it takes two presses. Maybe I'm just a slow button masher.
 

ChronoPenguin

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It takes getting used to, to be honest.
I've been (and continue) to work at it because I no longer like to stay in a Monado art for long.
My above post was edited with a response :p.

Considering how I'm playing at right now it may be considerable to use Extreme Monado arts, but the second benefit of switching out early to me is I'm getting less of that "Oh my god my art expired just as I was canceling it". Triple pres to Jump...wtf Shield...but I was just in shield. Was enough of a qualm that yeaaah...
 
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Masonomace

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I like the thought of using Hyper Monado Arts, but to use Buster safely during HMArts is, not until basically high% being around the 80 - 100% range unless you only use Fthrow & Bthrow to push them away & you attempt low sweeping Dtilts & disengage to be extremely safe. Even then, that feels too risky when HMABuster is practically taking 50% more damage.

Btw I like all of this discussion about Buster.:shades:
 
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Masonomace

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Recently as I watch matches of Shulk using Buster mode at the start of the match, the only character MU that makes me cringe & makes me ask myself "why. . .why would you Buster. . .", is when I see Shulk's versus Lucario & they keep it on longer when they shouldn't. That so far, is my only issue with Early-used Buster Shulks.:ohwell:
 
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Shabadoobie

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Recently as I watch matches of Shulk using Buster mode at the start of the match, the only character MU that makes me cringe & makes me ask myself "why. . .why would you Buster. . .", is when I see Shulk's versus Lucario & they keep it on longer when they shouldn't. That so far, is my only issue with Early-used Buster Shulks.:ohwell:
Buster against Lucario too much seems like a bad idea. Its basically like, "Here, have some extra power to kill me with!" In my, albeit inexperienced, opinion, I would use speed mostly, then depending on my % standing, go for the earliest KO I can get with Smash. Try to keep them out of higher %.
 

Masonomace

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Buster against Lucario too much seems like a bad idea. Its basically like, "Here, have some extra power to kill me with!" In my, albeit inexperienced, opinion, I would use speed mostly, then depending on my % standing, go for the earliest KO I can get with Smash. Try to keep them out of higher %.
It is a bad idea, you're feeding Lucario what he wants. Speaking as a used-to-be-but-still-is-kind-of Brawl Lucario Main, I know better than to be Shulk & use MABuster against a character I'm well aware of, so when I see those Shulks using Buster against him for prolonged periods of time or even use Buster at all, I pray that they better know exactly what they're doing. Smash or Speed or Shield are the best Arts to use against Lucario in Neutral Game & late game at high %.

Smash is literally the best Art to use versus Lucario no matter when it's used, even at the beginning of the match. It cheats Lucario's Aura system & I wish I saw it more often.
 

Pepto

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With vectoring working so much better than traditional DI and the increased blast zones on a lot of stages, it's a lot harder to kill in this game. Personally, I'll throw out Buster when the other guy is at about 80%, cause I can still pull off some combos and rack up good damage. That's gets em up to 140ish% if you're smart about it, and puts you in a much better situation for kills. But honestly, Buster at the start works wonders against characters with poor spacing.

Smash is literally the best Art to use versus Lucario no matter when it's used, even at the beginning of the match. It cheats Lucario's Aura system & I wish I saw it more often.
I haven't had much luck using Smash at the beginning, and I typically kill by edge guarding with Jump since Shulk has a better air game. Not sure what I'm doing wrong with Smash.
 
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Masonomace

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I haven't had much luck using Smash at the beginning, and I typically kill by edge guarding with Jump since Shulk has a better air game. Not sure what I'm doing wrong with Smash.
Are you talking about yourself using Smash when playing against Lucario? If you are, the simple idea is to play normally as you would Vanilla Shulk because all that's changed between using Buster & using Smash is that you don't take increased % damage when trading, & the damage buff is reversed to be a damage nerf, which is a good thing for versing Lucario. That's basically it in a nutshell without going too into the Lucario MU discussion. Jump is very favorable to use when edge-guarding Lucario & his ExtremeSpeed UpB, because even if you miss your edge-guard chance to take a stock off him, you can still follow his landing with the air speed Jump mode increases.

Anyways Smash used at the beginning of the match raises some eyebrows no doubt.
"Why is he using Smash this early?"
Smash surprisingly can ruin a lot of early combo setups especially if you vector upward even more forcing the opponent to extend past their safe reach if they really wanted to follow-up with commitment. Smash early % shuts down those kind of combo moments but could open up different mix-ups that normally wouldn't work before that early in the match now & then. Smash has the potential to gimp early as well as Jump would off-stage if you mastered your Vanilla recovery too. The idea behind Smash is when you have a punishing opportunity, you opt to use the stronger hit-box Shulk possesses, being the Blade portion for tilts / aerials, & sometimes smashes.
 
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