Projectile users vs Rosalina

[-Jax]

I played against a Rosalina & Luma today for the first time today. I had a lot of fun playing, even though they totally beat my ass... I was playing Rosalina & Luma as well but got completely outplayed, then switched to Samus, which seems to be a tough matchup, or maybe I'm just bad.

The things I noticed they did were the strongest were Rosalina approaching with a dash attack, occasionally mixing it up with a grab. That dash attack is ridiculous when paired with Luma as it can't be spot dodged or stopped by a lot of attacks as Luma will just trade the hit and cancel the counter attack, allowing Rosalina's hit to connect. My only realy option was to shield, which was then easily read and punished with a grab.

It was so problematic for me to even damage Rosalina herself, any projectiles would just get blocked by Luma or Gravity Pulls, forcing me to fight close range, where in the few matches I played I didn't really notice anything I could use to outspeed or outrange Rosalina. Maybe that's just a Samus specific issue.

Are Rosalina & Luma this good against all projectile users? I never really noticed how annoying she is until playing against her. Has anyone else here played against good Rosalina & Luma players so far?

 

[Great_Shell]

As a Rosalina main I've been focusing on dealing with the fast, heavy hitting meta (Zss, Shiek, Greninja, Mac, Etc) So I've adopted an aggressive playstyle that throws people off, as a result I do poorly against projectile users, Ness and Link being the most difficult to deal with for me. It depends on the player I guess I haven't notice more difficulty with poorly used projectile users, it really seems like this game is almost perfectly asymmetrically balanced, I only experience difficulty when the player is better than me then it doesn't matter who they use just that they use them well.

 

[ChikoLad]

PK Fire is the only projectile that's particularly good against Rosalina, IMO.

Reason being that it's actually quite a short range move, so Ness players can outsmart Rosalina players by using it when she's already committed to fighting at close range, and therefore is not prepared to use Gravitational Pull.

And even if the thing hits Luma, that annoying after flame that's left from the move creates a wall that Rosalina has to maneuver around. Which is why I often times, let Luma burn, as terrible as it sounds. Ness is generally waiting for me to jump over or dodge the leftover of PK Fire. So just wait at the other side of it, and let Luma take the hits (sometimes Ness will start bullying Luma while he's stuck in the fire too, the poor thing ). It's better to let the playing field return to a more equal situation, rather than let Ness follow through with whatever plans he has for you when you try to go around it. And if the Ness player is cocky, they will actually run straight for Rosalina, which is favourable for her, since Rosalina's general close range repertoire is much better than Ness'.

The absolute worst thing though, is when Ness uses it while Rosalina is dash attacking. Normally, using Luma as a shield during a dash attack is an excellent strategy, and a great way for Rosalina to get a free hit, and in some cases, gain control over the stage by bopping the opponent into the air. However, this does not work against PK Fire, because of the after flame. Even if it hits Luma, that flame will linger, and Rosalina will already be on her way into it if you started the dash attack, which gives Ness a free hit on Rosalina and Luma. It's especially a death wish at high percents.

So yeah, I have noticed that Ness players will relentlessly try to get me with PK Fire, since it gives Ness a ton of control over the flow of battle. It grants him the ability to strip Rosalina of one of her greatest strengths if he gets her with it. And of course, Rosalina is big, so she's easier to hit it with than most characters.

If it weren't for PK Fire, the Rosalina VS Ness match-up would be completely in Rosalina's favour. PK Fire is enough to even it out though. Even though PK Thunder is actually terrible to use against Rosalina, Ness can always avoid using it while fighting her, unless he absolutely has to use it to recover.

I could be exaggerating, because admittedly, I have not been in the best of health this week, and it's effected my Smash Bros performance, ESPECIALLY with Rosalina. But I think PK Fire is great against Rosalina.

Any other projectile is basically a crap shoot against her. You have to either be playing against to an unskilled Rosalina player, one who isn't at the top of their game (me), or just get really lucky.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

PK Fire is the only projectile that's particularly good against Rosalina, IMO.

Reason being that it's actually quite a short range move, so Ness players can outsmart Rosalina players by using it when she's already committed to fighting at close range, and therefore is not prepared to use Gravitational Pull.

And even if the thing hits Luma, that annoying after flame that's left from the move creates a wall that Rosalina has to maneuver around. Which is why I often times, let Luma burn, as terrible as it sounds. Ness is generally waiting for me to jump over or dodge the leftover of PK Fire. So just wait at the other side of it, and let Luma take the hits (sometimes Ness will start bullying Luma while he's stuck in the fire too, the poor thing ). It's better to let the playing field return to a more equal situation, rather than let Ness follow through with whatever plans he has for you when you try to go around it. And if the Ness player is cocky, they will actually run straight for Rosalina, which is favourable for her, since Rosalina's general close range repertoire is much better than Ness'.

The absolute worst thing though, is when Ness uses it while Rosalina is dash attacking. Normally, using Luma as a shield during a dash attack is an excellent strategy, and a great way for Rosalina to get a free hit, and in some cases, gain control over the stage by bopping the opponent into the air. However, this does not work against PK Fire, because of the after flame. Even if it hits Luma, that flame will linger, and Rosalina will already be on her way into it if you started the dash attack, which gives Ness a free hit on Rosalina and Luma. It's especially a death wish at high percents.

So yeah, I have noticed that Ness players will relentlessly try to get me with PK Fire, since it gives Ness a ton of control over the flow of battle. It grants him the ability to strip Rosalina of one of her greatest strengths if he gets her with it. And of course, Rosalina is big, so she's easier to hit it with than most characters.

If it weren't for PK Fire, the Rosalina VS Ness match-up would be completely in Rosalina's favour. PK Fire is enough to even it out though. Even though PK Thunder is actually terrible to use against Rosalina, Ness can always avoid using it while fighting her, unless he absolutely has to use it to recover.

I could be exaggerating, because admittedly, I have not been in the best of health this week, and it's effected my Smash Bros performance, ESPECIALLY with Rosalina. But I think PK Fire is great against Rosalina.

Any other projectile is basically a crap shoot against her. You have to either be playing against to an unskilled Rosalina player, one who isn't at the top of their game (me), or just get really lucky.

I mentioned this in the matchup thread, but I've found that you can literally poke at the PK Fire bolt with ftilt (and probably dtilt) and since Rosalina extends her legs so far it'll trigger the flame pillar, she'll take maybe 2%, and stand right back up ready to do...well, something. The issue of having to move past the fire is still there, but it's an option other than letting Luma take the hit or trying to use GPull in close range.

Penetrating projectiles like fully charged Water Shuriken or ROB's laser also get past Luma as a meatshield. Luckily those aren't too common. Din's Fire and PK Flash also can't be absorbed by GPull unless I'm mistaken. (Not that any Ness will throw out PK Flash in neutral, but it's something to consider especially when recovering.)

 

[Great_Shell]

Hmmmm, I've seen a lot of PK thunder spamming where they use their recovery offensively, it's really good because it acts as a great lure then they hit themselves and plow through Luma, it's incredibly powerful. You catch on after a while and then they start to target you directly it's pretty versatile in the right players hands. I'm not very good though so that was definitely a factor.

 

[nightSN]

i agree that ness is troubling, how i try to deal with ness is i assume i don't have luma at all and go very aggressive with the ground game

 

[Torn_Smash]

PK Fire is the only projectile that's particularly good against Rosalina, IMO.

I've found that the best projectile user against Rosalina is Pac-Man.

I believe all of Pac-Man's projectiles from his Neutral B will hit both Luma AND Rosalina if Luma is in default position right next to Rosalina. And even when you have your Luma out a bit, most of his projectiles will still pierce through Luma (especially annoying is the key) and hit Rosalina

I had an extended set with a Pac-Man and one of the most annoying this was that I could use gravitational pull on many of his projectiles (oh side PSA: gravitational pull will pull in Pac-Man's fire hydrant and the bursts of water, which is pretty hilarious), but the key comes out so fast that it is very hard to react to it quick enough unless Pac-Man is on the other side of the stage. And you can't really stop him from cycling through to get to key since you're pretty slow and you don't really want to go aggressive up against Pac-Man.

I did have success in that set, winning most of the games, but it was one of the harder match-ups I've had and I had to change up a lot of my tactics since they didn't quite work against Pac-Man. Oh also, his side-B is REALLY good against Rosa

 

[Starbound]

If you're using the Catch and Release custom, projectile users are really tough. You've got to have good timing on your shields and rolls, because chip damage like this is probably the best way to get damage on Rosalina.

If you have the Gravitational Pull custom, projectile users are pretty easy for obvious reasons.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The one thing to keep note about is when Rosalina should use Gravitational Pull, as there will be times where you won't be able to react to every projectile that comes your way; Smash Run proves that with its enemy abundance.

 

[-Jax]

The one thing to keep note about is when Rosalina should use Gravitational Pull, as there will be times where you won't be able to react to every projectile that comes your way; Smash Run proves that with its enemy abundance.

Makes me wonder, has anyone played against a decent Falco yet? How does the Gravitational Pull hold up against his laser? Of course you can always tank the hit with Luma, but are there a lot of things you can do against his projectile spam given his reflector? Would the proper response be to just throw out Luma, and let Luma tank the laser so you can safely approach him?

Playing the match in my head it feels like one of the few match-ups where Rosalina is forced to approach instead of the other way around, unless the lasers are slow enough to get caught by Gravitational Pull, I haven't seen a lot of Falco players.

 

[ChikoLad]

I've found that the best projectile user against Rosalina is Pac-Man.

I believe all of Pac-Man's projectiles from his Neutral B will hit both Luma AND Rosalina if Luma is in default position right next to Rosalina. And even when you have your Luma out a bit, most of his projectiles will still pierce through Luma (especially annoying is the key) and hit Rosalina

I had an extended set with a Pac-Man and one of the most annoying this was that I could use gravitational pull on many of his projectiles (oh side PSA: gravitational pull will pull in Pac-Man's fire hydrant and the bursts of water, which is pretty hilarious), but the key comes out so fast that it is very hard to react to it quick enough unless Pac-Man is on the other side of the stage. And you can't really stop him from cycling through to get to key since you're pretty slow and you don't really want to go aggressive up against Pac-Man.

I did have success in that set, winning most of the games, but it was one of the harder match-ups I've had and I had to change up a lot of my tactics since they didn't quite work against Pac-Man. Oh also, his side-B is REALLY good against Rosa

Funnily enough, I was just playing online with a friend of mine who mains Pac-Man. Even with my condition, none of these things were a problem for me. I even KO'd him with his own key by pulling it in with Gravitational Pull.

Also his Side B is not a problem for me. It's so easy to hit him out of it.

The fire hydrant was a pain, but I didn't know you could GP it, so that will improve my situation in the future.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

(oh side PSA: gravitational pull will pull in Pac-Man's fire hydrant and the bursts of water, which is pretty hilarious)

Does GPull affect the fire hydrant once it lands on the ground? I would have expected it to only work if you pull it in while it's falling from being used midair.

 

[ChikoLad]

Also, back on Ness - PK Thunder is terrible against Rosalina.

When Ness is trying to recover, Rosalina can literally steal it from him by using GP and completely gimp his recovery.

And to add insult to injury - one time, a Ness player tried to use PK Thunder as I approached him from above, while he was on solid ground, but I used GP - and the PK Thunder just swung around to his left, made contact, and due to Ness having that specific animation where he goes flying after a PK Thunder, as his recovery - he flew right off the right of the stage and I won.

So yeah, Ness players should really just refrain from using PK Thunder unless they really need it to recovery, but be ready to be gimped.

 

[Torn_Smash]

Does GPull affect the fire hydrant once it lands on the ground? I would have expected it to only work if you pull it in while it's falling from being used midair.

Yep, GPull affects the fire hydrant when it's on the ground. Again, it looks super funny

 

[Great_Shell]

Just saw this on Reddit.
http://gfycat.com/PowerlessCreativeBlackwidowspider

 

[ChikoLad]

Just saw this on Reddit.
http://gfycat.com/PowerlessCreativeBlackwidowspider

That's exactly what I was talking about. It's so fun to do.

 

[-Jax]

That's exactly what I was talking about. It's so fun to do.

If you're lucky enough, the attack won't even damage ness, just leaving him in the helpless state instead of being able to recover again... I should've saved the replay where I did that.

 

[Bushando64]

I've personally found that any character that has a projectile of some sort but can ALSO maintain a strong physical game with either quick ground-covering moves or ranged strong tilts/Smashes can give RosaLuma some trouble. Like @ ChikoLad previously stated, if a player can trick a Rosalina to use Gravitational Pull and mid-to-close range, then you're better get that shield ready because a KO is incoming.

Examples are , , , , , and, to an extent, and .

 

[Smasher89]

The best thing with the gimp on ness, is that its a reliable footstool setup, making the gimps even more enjoyable.

 

[-Jax]

Examples are , , , , , and, to an extent, and .

What are the moves do you typically struggle against a Samus? I really haven't found anything in Samus her kit that isn't outclassed by anything Rosalina & Luma have at a close range, both on paper as in practice. I think the main problem with Samus for me is that Rosalina & Luma are one of the few that can force Samus to approach, but also still have moves effective enough at getting Samus off her back because of the disjointed hitboxes, and similar speeds of the moves.

 

[Bushando64]

What are the moves do you typically struggle against a Samus? I really haven't found anything in Samus her kit that isn't outclassed by anything Rosalina & Luma have at a close range, both on paper as in practice. I think the main problem with Samus for me is that Rosalina & Luma are one of the few that can force Samus to approach, but also still have moves effective enough at getting Samus off her back because of the disjointed hitboxes, and similar speeds of the moves.

It might just be because I was playing more defensively, but Samus's side-Smash is powerful and a bit quicker than her Brawl counterpart. The player also seemed to spam a ton of missiles which I had issues keeping up with, even with Gravitational Pull. Possibly her down-Smash has a bit more range, as well? They were also super-aggressive against Luma specifically, so I lacked the power to kill sooner more often than not.

 

[-Jax]

It might just be because I was playing more defensively, but Samus's side-Smash is powerful and a bit quicker than her Brawl counterpart. The player also seemed to spam a ton of missiles which I had issues keeping up with, even with Gravitational Pull. Possibly her down-Smash has a bit more range, as well? They were also super-aggressive against Luma specifically, so I lacked the power to kill sooner more often than not.

Could very well be, I'm not a fan of down-smash at all in this game, as it doesn't really do anything I want to do compared to the Brawl one, besides maybe punishing rolls. I also haven't had a lot of luck with F-smash against Rosalina either, as f-tilt and d-tilt stopped them in the games I played. Though admittedly, I don't use that move that much either as a quick hit, maybe because I'm still too used to the Brawl one.

I'll try using these moves next time I face a Rosalina & Luma though, see if they have any more effect. Besides this I can just say you shouldn't be afraid to be aggressive against a Samus at close range. The attacks are surprisingly similar to Rosalina's in my experience, playing both of them frequently, except Samus doesn't have Luma to back her up.

 

[Bushando64]

It could also be lack of experience, as I've only played against Samus twice in the sixty hours that I've played, soooo

 

[-Jax]

Yeah, no surprise there's no hype for veterans like her, especially considering her awful performance in Brawl. I haven't actually encountered a Samus main. One or two players that played her, but obviously didn't know what to do with her.

So far, I've found defensive Rosalina & Luma players easier to deal with than ones that stand their ground and fight back when I got close with Samus. So keep that in mind when fighting her! (I'm sorry my fellow Samus players, but its for the good of the meta!)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've personally found that any character that has a projectile of some sort but can ALSO maintain a strong physical game with either quick ground-covering moves or ranged strong tilts/Smashes can give RosaLuma some trouble. Like @ ChikoLad previously stated, if a player can trick a Rosalina to use Gravitational Pull and mid-to-close range, then you're better get that shield ready because a KO is incoming.

Examples are , , , , , and, to an extent, and .

I'd tentatively add Zero Suit Samus to that list since she has a pretty good projectile in Paralyzer and is no slouch physically to boot. I just haven't met any online so I can't judge how she fares against us.

Also can I just say I find it really funny that Peach is included in that group? She just seems amusingly out of place with the rest of them.

 

[Shiliski]

I have trouble with ZSS, but not because of the projectiles. Mostly it's her Down B, Up B, and general speed+range that gives me the most trouble.

I haven't had trouble with Ness, but that may just be due to not having faced a good one yet. They keep using PK Fire at exactly the wrong time and it gives me an opening to approach. Keep in mind that it only creates a wall of fire if it hits something, so rolling through the initial projectile it is an option.

It's nice to know that GP can be used to gimp Ness, as well as get rid of that hydrant. Also, GP is very spammable so if you're standing at long range and are worried about Pac-Man's key... don't be. I've met a few decent Pac-Mans but once you learn not to stand underneath them when they're in the air (fire hydrant) and also learn to watch out for the key (does he ever use other projectiles at all?) then it's not really an issue. A lot of his moves are very readable when you know what to look for.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Also can I just say I find it really funny that Peach is included in that group? She just seems amusingly out of place with the rest of them.

Peach can force Rosalina to use Gravitational Pull while she has the vegetable in her hands. Since Peach is limited to only her specials while holding the vegetable, Rosalina would expect the vegetable to be thrown, only to take a Peach Bomber in the face.

Also, if Peach ever picks up a Bob-omb, Gravitational Pull will not protect Rosalina against its explosive properties.

 

[Bushando64]

I'd tentatively add Zero Suit Samus to that list since she has a pretty good projectile in Paralyzer and is no slouch physically to boot. I just haven't met any online so I can't judge how she fares against us.

I would absolutely agree, except for the fact that Paralyzer isn't as effective on a light character like Rosalina as she gets pseudo-launched after the paralysis is over, not to mention Luma can tank a TON of them right to the face. In my opinion. ZSS is another one of those light rush-down characters that can be played around by knowing when to be aggressive and when to hang back. Her dash-attack is ridiculous in range and duration, and all of her Smash attacks are surprisingly frightening, as well as her side-special. I'm totally with @ Shiliski on this one.

Peach can force Rosalina to use Gravitational Pull while she has the vegetable in her hands. Since Peach is limited to only her specials while holding the vegetable, Rosalina would expect the vegetable to be thrown, only to take a Peach Bomber in the face.

Also, if Peach ever picks up a Bob-omb, Gravitational Pull will not protect Rosalina against its explosive properties.

More often than not I attempt to shield when I think a turnip is coming, because 99% of the time a Peach player will try to follow up with a floating aerial of some sort--more often than not, forward-air. Sometimes I can condition Peach players early on in a match by using Gravitational Pull numerous times, then later on making them expect me to use it only to get Smashed out of shield.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm convinced Mega Man is not very good against Rosalina, at all.

I played a ton of matches against this one Mega Man player in FG, and they were really good. Although I could have beat him as Sonic, I didn't due to some movement screw ups (WHY CAN HE WALL JUMP AFTER USING THE SPRING!!????). I also beat him as my own Mega Man, but only because it went to Sudden Death. He also wrecked my Toon Link.

However, although I lost one or two matches against him as Rosalina due to messing up the recovery (and then one match where I was just not playing well), I must have one about 10 matches.

He was making really good use of his projectiles in all matches, but this meant little against Rosalina, because of Luma and Gravitational Pull. I'd often have him at 40-60% before he even got a hit in on Rosalina, and I was often surviving until 180%, while he would get KO'd at much lower percents. And my overall strategy against him was to be defensive when Luma was present, but then go all out when Luma is gone. I like to call this style of play, "The Enraged Mama".

The reason I find it so effective against Mega Man (and any character that excels at ranged pressure, like Link), is because these guys make it difficult to perform the standard RosaLuma co-ordination. Since they are constantly shooting, they always end up hitting Luma out of whatever you are trying to make him do. Which is why Luma is almost exclusively used as bait in this style. While Luma is present, I get whatever potshots I need to get in as they concentrate on Luma. Then as soon as Luma dies, Mama gets angry and starts going all out. And since this style also allows me to control my damage build up, I am often at high damage by the time I have my opponent in their second stock. Thanks to this game's Rage mechanic, by launch power is now better at this point, making the second stock easier to get a kill on.

I will experiment with this style in the future and also make a complementary custom set sometime.

 

[Shiliski]

The reason I find it so effective against Mega Man (and any character that excels at ranged pressure, like Link), is because these guys make it difficult to perform the standard RosaLuma co-ordination. Since they are constantly shooting, they always end up hitting Luma out of whatever you are trying to make him do. Which is why Luma is almost exclusively used as bait in this style. While Luma is present, I get whatever potshots I need to get in as they concentrate on Luma. Then as soon as Luma dies, Mama gets angry and starts going all out. And since this style also allows me to control my damage build up, I am often at high damage by the time I have my opponent in their second stock. Thanks to this game's Rage mechanic, by launch power is now better at this point, making the second stock easier to get a kill on.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that Rosalina can fight on her own. So many people seem to think that she's another Ice Climbers, but it's really not like that at all. The Luma isn't nearly as crucial as Nana is, and losing it is nowhere near as crippling. Plus it can absorb about 50% damage for you, which is a pretty sweet deal.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can pretty much say that Bowser Jr.'s projectiles are a big joke for Rosalina. She can render the cannonballs ineffective, and use the Mecha-Koopas against Bowser Jr..

In fact, Bowser Jr.'s projectile attacks execute so slowly that they are very easy to see coming, and are just as easy to counter as well.

 

[ChikoLad]

I've been having fun countering Pac-Man's Neutral B and Down B. That key is awesome to use against him.

 

[ZombieBran]

I fought a friend of mine who has a good Pac-Man game. The key was indeed a shocker at first but afterwards easy to see coming. The Fire Hydrant even more so. All of his kill moves are telegraphed and not as huge in range as they seem. He's tiny so in comparison to him they are pretty big, I guess.

It was not a very hard match up for me, and I don't main Rosalina...(yet? lol)

I haven't fought a camper that can get past GravPull and Luma. But I imagine PK Fire and Din's Fire is troublesome. Still, Rosalina beats both Ness and Zelda in close range, I think.