Project without a Name - Just some ideas - What do you think about them?

[xDD-Master]

Warning: This post is BIG! But you should read everything to get a good opinion on it!

Hey guys!

While me and 2 other smashers were driving back from a smashfest this weekend, we discussed about some ideas of how to make new Brawl Hack that would be pretty interesting and probably very cool to play.

So thats what we got, I will present you the ideas, and then the problems. Because basically I only know some JAVA-programming (And other languages) and some PSA Coding (From 2-3 years ago...) so thats not a lot for Brawl hacking. I basically just know how to change/add/remove hitboxes/damage/knockback etc., and I also did know how to change animations of moves, even though I dont remember that, but I could probably learn it quickly again.

Thats why I would need help, especiallly with stuff like remapping the controller / moves. For example what happens if you press A+B or Shield+B or UpTaunt in the air.

Whatever
Here we go!


Idea 1:
Add a new Air-Dash to Brawl!

Inspired by eldirans Zero Hack over Link (www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8171211&postcount=3) I think it would be very interesting and cool to see Brawl having a universal Air Dash for almost every character! (Some chaacters like Olimar, I cant really imagine an Air Dash, but maybe we could get creative with them?)

The Air Dash has not always to be horizontal. It could also be diagonally up or down! (For example for MK I can imagine a quick downward air dash!)

The Air Dash should only be cancelable by A-moves and should only be possible once in the air (Unless you got hit or grabbed the edge or got back on the ground again)

It should also be possible on the ground. Characters that have an upward Air Dash might also get an upward air dash on the ground? Not sure yet...

I can imagine 2 types of 'how to trigger this':
- Either by UpTaunt (See eldirans Zero), this is cool because you can set an unused button to UpTaunt and trigger it with it. (I guess either X/Y or L/R for most players)
- Or Shield+B, similar to Shield+A, this has the advantage that you dont need an additional button, and Shield+B is NEVER used anyway. The only problem I could think of, that this requires two button presses, therefore a higher error possibilty and probably less quick/useful.


Problem:
I dont know how to implement either of the methods I presented in 'how to trigger this'.


Idea 2:
Add a new Super Gauge! (Street Fighter Super Like System // Hyper Mode?)

Yep, a super system! I think this would add a completely new and interesting aspect to Smash/Brawl, which has never been there.

I think it would be enough to add a Hyper Mode, which does 3-4 of the following things:
- More Damage
- More Knockback
- Less Lag
- Quicker overall Movement?

Of course not too much, maybe 150% more Damage/Knockback and 50% less lag or something.

This Hyper Mode would only last for 10 seconds.

We also discussed about Supers, but then we preferred the Hyper Mode Idea.
Maybe there could be both? Maybe even different for every character? The best would *selectable* of course, but I'm not sure if this is possible at all...

We also talked about potential ideas of how to get into the 'ready to enter hyper mode' status, where you can activate Hyper Mode then by pressing A+B at the same time (If this is possible).

Our first idea was to make it so that you get rewarded for your combos. But we put this idea away as brawl has many stupid multiple hit moves which would completely destroy the idea of making combos. If you know what I mean.

So the second idea was to limit it to moves. For every move you hit with you get +1, for every move you whiff, you get -1.
If you get +10 you can activate Hyper Mode.
But we saw a problem with that, which is that we would punish/nerf characters that rely on whiffing moves to space correctly, and brawl has some of them, while buffing characters that needs to play precisely.

So our third idea was, to reward risky move. For example if you hit with Snakes FSmash you get a +20, while hitting with MKs Up-Air only gives you +1.
If you get +100 you get a super. Or something like that.
Whiffing moves just does nothing.

This probably is the best idea.

When a character is ready to enter Hyper Mode they are surrounded by some small electric sparks or something, just to make it visible, without being TOO much (like a big bright flash).
If we use the last idea, the sparks could get even bigger/more frequent/more in general or something like that, just to show how much you already filled the gauge. Maybe a small electric burst the moment you finally filled it?
Even though that may be too much again, as it would just annoy to see characters flashing and all the stuff. (SFxT anyone... ?)
The "effect" could also differ from character to character. Some get electric, some fire, some dark aura, etc.

After you triggered Hyper Mode your characters should get into some kind of "Flashy/blurry" look, you know what I mean? When something is really quick you dont see it very clear anymore. Not sure if this is possible, but it would be cool.


Problem:
I think I would know on how to add a counter like system in brawl (Just add a new variable which you do +X every move) and then check if A+B is pressed if that new variable is >=100 or not.

Yet I dont know how to set A+B to something. And I also never did this new variable thing I described above, thats just an idea of how it would work in other programming languages...

I also dont know at all how the game register if a move has hit or not.

I also have no clue for the visual when entered the super mode...

So yes, I also need quite some help on this one :3


Idea 3:
Universal Smash-Charge Canceling!

Yes! As long as you are in your charging animation you can cancel your charge with either of this three moves:
- Jump
- Shield
- The new Air Dash (See above)

I'm not sure about how broken this would be in the end, but I'm sure this could lead into GREAT mindgames. We could also limit the cancel options, if 3 options are too much, but thats hard to say at the moment.

After you stopped charging or it just ended, there is no way back and you cant cancel the smash itself. So yeah, this only is a smash-CHARGE cancel.

Problem:
I'm not sure how to code something that goes like this in "Brawl Code"... this is -java code-:

while(smashcharge == true){
if(buttonpressed == shield){
shield();
else if(...){
...}...
...

So I need help on that!


Idea 4:
Making Characters more Unique?

Heavy/Strong Characters even more heavy/strong?
Quick Characters even quicker?
Light characters even more light?

Why not?
I dont think its a bad idea to make characters even more diverse when it comes down to their general attributes.

It definitely shouldnt be too crazy, but just adding a bit more of weight to Bowser, a bit less weight to MK/Jiggs, and giving less lag to Fox or Sonic and stuff like that, wouldnt really hurt the game right?

And you know what they have done to Bowser in Brawl-?

I think that idea is pretty good, and should be done to more heavy characters, my idea was to give them also different limits:
Bowser 5%
DK/DDD 4%
Ganondorf 3%
Ike 2%

Something like that.

And you know that cool street fighter like combo system Lucario has in Project M?
Why not adding to 3-4 more characters? Or in some cases just adding this to some moves for other characters?
Snake could do Jab->Ftilt->Down/Uptilt for example. Why not?

I think this would be pretty cool, but maybe thats just me.

Problem:
I guess I could add super armor to every animation, but was it done this way in Brawl-?

I dont know how the games detects a "Move has hit"... so therefore that combo system would be pretty much impossible for me to do.


Do you like it?
So if you do like the idea, and support it, please let me know with posting into this thread. The more people are interested in this idea, the more it gets possible to be reality! If you are a Hacker and would like to help on this project, let me know as well.
If you got any ideas/tips etc., let me know as well!
As I already said, I have very low skills in Brawl Hacking and can only do the basic of all basic stuff. I would love to learn, but its pretty hard, as there are only very few good tutorials that show you step be step how to do stuff and you have to learn/discover a lots of stuff on your own.
Therefore I would love to get the help of some expert hackers, especially since I think this project isnt THAT hard to realize compared to other complex hacks as Project M.

And if you didnt like what you read, let me know as well!
All I can say is, that when I imagine these ideas implemented in Brawl, I feel like this would be really cool, and I would love to play this! Too bad my hacking skills are not good enough to do it on my own :/

I would also have no problem if any other project like Project M or Brawl- would think about implementing one or some of my ideas. Just please let me know, so I can test them =)

I hope you enjoyed reading it, maybe you got some ideas for your own projects
And sorry for my bad english, I'm from Germany, but I tried my best!

Greetz!

 

[Airslash]

Possible merge of my mod with yours, just sayin'.

 

[xDD-Master]

I already saw yours and had the same idea xD (Just didnt post to think about it ^^)
I guess, I have no problem with that

 

[Kink-Link5]

Needs more parries, Universal overheads, smaller shields, larger shield angling properties, slower shield degeneration, faster shield regeneration, higher shield stun, no rolls, air dashes going over air dodges, air dashes and double jumps being on the same counter except when they aren't, Reverse Beat, Homing Cancels, Grazing through projectiles, Flight, and Spell Cards.

Okay it doesn't need the last 5 I was just being facetious.

Eternal Smash Fighter Zero III Act Cadanza Extend and Missing Power

 

[xDD-Master]

Why not :D

 

[Mera Mera]

long post in response... I have a good bit of programming experience though only a little bit with smash. I'd be willing to help with making an air dash happen, as well as a homing attack or cancel if it's possible, which is something Kink-Link5 was just joking about but it sounds great.
I'll be honest in that currently I'm hesitant to believe that this will be going anywhere... do you have any progress? I mean no offense in saying this; I know every project has to start somewhere. I'm not saying it won't happen. Anyways, even if you don't have much progress, I'd be willing to work on an air dash for each character, because I'd like to see that in general. I'll possibly help with the whole project depending on what direction this ends up going in.

Idea 1: obviously, I like it... this is your best idea... Zero was hella fun because of his side B. I suggest making it one button for ease of use. Also, I'm not sure I see any harm in letting it cancel specials (aside from most up-specials, but it'd be cool if some up specials you could cancel with this, like Lucario for example). These should go in set directions, and keep in mind ones with a downward angle will give the character wave landing and wave dashing, which is no small advantage.

Idea 2: Talk to the person who made time mage over zelda or viewtiful joe over captain falcon (one of them... I could help find these people, but I don't remember who did them off hand). They both had an invisible bar that could be charged depending on what you did. With the time mage it was taunts but with viewtiful joe it was something else. I suggest making it so you get more charge for moves that aren't good defensive moves... so no moves that can be used out of shield well such as most up-B's, up-smashes, and n-airs, should give much charge. Neither should most projectiles... this would help encourage offensive play a little, which is more interesting... a game is bad when players have no incentive to approach.

Idea 3: I don't know that I like the idea of making charging smashes safer... I think the idea of smashes is that you have to commit to it, since the reward is so high for getting one off. In fact, you actually take like 15% more knockback if getting hit while charging a smash in v-Brawl iirc. Obviously v-Brawl doing something doesn't make it right, but in this case it makes sense to some degree. It might be fine if you nerfed the ones you wanted to make cancelable... but I think I'm against having any of them be shield cancelable regardless; it makes it too safe.

Idea 4: Not a bad idea, in fact, the idea of making a cancel tree might be a good idea to do to most characters, not just 3 or 4, to help differentiate this mod... why not go all out. Heavy armor at all times is only fine if it only blocks jabs, get up attacks, and weaker projectiles... so keep that in mind when making armor for someone... also, the lower armors might be pointless... what will 2% block exactly? Like one or two attacks in the game, like Falco's lazer... which might be good if said character gets wrecked by his laser w/o the armor.

As an elaboration on the Homing attack idea, you could have it work like this, when you use it, you fly towards the person you last hit. If you are hit, you can't use homing attack until you hit someone again. Homing cancel could be something that uses some of the charge meter if that gets implemented.

As for the reverse brawl response... (since it might be merged)

-- Mario --
not sure what fireball cape means... if it's just a fire cape, I will say that adding random elementals does make a hack look far less professional, but it might be fine here.
Please elaborate on the grounded down special more.

-- Luigi --
I like the sliding down smash idea; it's very fitting of his character.

-- Yoshi --
For the egg roll, I assume you mean super armor, which isn't a bad idea... you should be able to grab him out of it though (which super armor allows for).
I think a bigger explosion, which be more canon (black yoshi from yoshi's story) would work best.
The nado seems out of place and I don't like the idea of adding a random factor personally... random can be done right, which would be a post in itself for when that is, but in this case I suggest just have it happen always or not at all.
I could be wrong, but I think the Yoshi's side-aerial-special you suggest is currently impossible to add...
I'm not sure why you would nerf his grabs so badly... I thought grabs were one of the main draws of playing yoshi. If anything I would expect a buff of sorts, like making chain grabs at low percents or on good reads/ bad DI.

-- Donkey Kong --
Personally, I think you should keep his gournded up-B
Not sure why his aerials are being buffed so much and his ground moves are being nerfed so much... 10% is a lot.
Also, I think you underestimate how long 10 seconds is for grounding... and if down smash grounds, what's the incentive to use side B? or are you replacing this?

-- Captain Falcon --
ALL moves spike? Could make an interesting tech chase character, but if all moves serve the same function, he might be a bit silly... also, it would really hurt his ability to chain things the way he does... I would hope it's not literally all moves.
Knee of justice is a "smsmash?" ...is it not forward air now? Please elaborate.
Only 5% faster on Falcon punch probably wouldn't need the nerf of higher end lag, it's not enough of a speed buff to make it much more useful... if you speed it up enough I could see this though.
The fire trail sounds awesome for falcon kick... an aerial cancel for this move at any point would be cool, though I would make it a jump cancel and then not have it give a jump back (unless maybe you let the move complete?). Canceling at any point for the grounded version would make it probably next to unpunlishable... Brawl- has it so you can jump cancel it towards the end and that alone is pretty ridiculous... it'd be fine if it were cancelable on hit though. Minus wanted to do this but they couldn't get it to work for some reason... it's possible though, I'm pretty sure.

-- Kirby --
The paralyze effect could be cool... is it a reference at all?
I'm not sure the pan is possible... Same with the spawning stars down special.

Sorry for the ridiculously long post. Also, sorry for saying I'm unsure this will go anywhere... but it's common for people to say they will do something and then realize it's harder than they thought. I do hope this happens. Good luck and let me know what you think of the criticism... I can move the reverse brawl comments onto the reverse brawl thread if you so wish.

Edit: You should change "How do you think about them?" to "What do you think about them?" ...I saw that you're German, it's a common mistake; just letting you know since it is in the title of the thread.

 

[xDD-Master]

(Before: Sry for the late answer I was in study trouble so I couldnt answer quickly to that pretty long post ^^)

long post in response... I have a good bit of programming experience though only a little bit with smash. I'd be willing to help with making an air dash happen, as well as a homing attack or cancel if it's possible, which is something Kink-Link5 was just joking about but it sounds great.
I'll be honest in that currently I'm hesitant to believe that this will be going anywhere... do you have any progress? I mean no offense in saying this; I know every project has to start somewhere. I'm not saying it won't happen. Anyways, even if you don't have much progress, I'd be willing to work on an air dash for each character, because I'd like to see that in general. I'll possibly help with the whole project depending on what direction this ends up going in.

First I want to say that its cool to see that people got interest in this
What exactly do you have in your head when you talk about homing attack/cancel? I dont know what that should be, but if I like the idea I wouldnt have a problem with adding that as well.
Basically I would like to have a Brawl mod that feels completely Un-Smash (Thats why merging with Brawl Reverse is possible, as it has the same goal, at least thats what the OP says).
And nice that you got some hacking skills! If you support this, this is really handy, as I only have limited hacking skills ^^"

As for progress: So far I already contacted Airslash, and we talked a bit (Not very much so far, but a bit) and we could agree that starting out with 5-10 characters at first is the best. I would say that even 4 is enough (4 because so everyone can have a different character in a FFA at least )

I agree that its not easy to REALLY push a project and finish it, but we can try at least, and thats why I think we really should concentrate on 4 characters first, because then we can at least see how this turns out to be, is it good? Is is bad? What could we change? Etc.

Idea 1: obviously, I like it... this is your best idea... Zero was hella fun because of his side B. I suggest making it one button for ease of use. Also, I'm not sure I see any harm in letting it cancel specials (aside from most up-specials, but it'd be cool if some up specials you could cancel with this, like Lucario for example). These should go in set directions, and keep in mind ones with a downward angle will give the character wave landing and wave dashing, which is no small advantage.

Yep, as I said I would prefer 1 button too.
Letting it cancel into specials isnt a problem I guess... maybe even Air Dodges? Not sure...
I dont see the problem with Up-Specials, ofc improved Recovery, but who will now what else we change, and that might be a good counter-addition to a possible improved edge guarding...

I dont think that having Wave Dash / Landing for only some characters is that big of a deal, sure they get a new option, but they also cant do the other air dash then, which can help a lot in recovering. You see? It might balances itself out...
And if you remember playing Zero, if you air dash and cancel it with something that also quickly or auto cancels on the ground you get a wavedash like thing as well. Because I would also implement it that way: Canceling air dash takes your momentum for horizontal air dashes. For diagonal one it keeps it a bit, I would say.
Some characters could even have back air dashes or vertical ones, so many possibilities, it should fit the characters!
Wario could get a Bowser Down-B like stomp vertical down. Peach could get a quick back dash (I think that would fit her quite well).

I'm not sure if ground dash and air dash should always be the same, but if we add down-moving dashes we would need to handle that anyway.
Well we can go into detail on that later, thats enough for now

Idea 2: Talk to the person who made time mage over zelda or viewtiful joe over captain falcon (one of them... I could help find these people, but I don't remember who did them off hand). They both had an invisible bar that could be charged depending on what you did. With the time mage it was taunts but with viewtiful joe it was something else. I suggest making it so you get more charge for moves that aren't good defensive moves... so no moves that can be used out of shield well such as most up-B's, up-smashes, and n-airs, should give much charge. Neither should most projectiles... this would help encourage offensive play a little, which is more interesting... a game is bad when players have no incentive to approach.

Yeah as I said, I might be able to do that alone as well, I'm just not sure how this was done on lucario, or joe or zelda (I know that hacks too, they are pretty old ), but I dont know the persons, would cool if you could contact them as soon as we have more details on how we implement that, so we can ask precise questions!

I can agree on the second part, thats a pretty good idea, kinda like my third idea, just a bit different / improved. I think we are on the right way here.

Idea 3: I don't know that I like the idea of making charging smashes safer... I think the idea of smashes is that you have to commit to it, since the reward is so high for getting one off. In fact, you actually take like 15% more knockback if getting hit while charging a smash in v-Brawl iirc. Obviously v-Brawl doing something doesn't make it right, but in this case it makes sense to some degree. It might be fine if you nerfed the ones you wanted to make cancelable... but I think I'm against having any of them be shield cancelable regardless; it makes it too safe.

If we/you know how we could even increase that additional knockback, if we want too! That shouldnt be a problem. But I dont think its neccessary.

I just thought smashes have quite limited situations where they are really useful, except for perfect spaced smashes or a trap like ZSSs DSmash on shield...

This would give them a completely new usage, that could add A LOT of mindgame potential to the game.

But yeah, shield cancel might be too much, maybe just cancelable into the new dash? You cant shield out of this on the ground (At least I didnt want to include that). You could only Charge->Cancel->Jump->Air Dodge, but that would take some time.

Another balance could be, that you can only cancel it after at least 30 frames (0,5 seconds) of charge or something, that would make it quite less useful.

We can work on that idea, I think adding some kind of smash charge cancel isnt wrong, we just need to be careful with that, I already had doubts in the OP that it might be too broken :3


Did you ever play Street Fighter 4? Or do you know Focus Attack Dash Cancel? I kinda think of this when I play this mod in my head
And I like FADC ^^

Idea 4: Not a bad idea, in fact, the idea of making a cancel tree might be a good idea to do to most characters, not just 3 or 4, to help differentiate this mod... why not go all out. Heavy armor at all times is only fine if it only blocks jabs, get up attacks, and weaker projectiles... so keep that in mind when making armor for someone... also, the lower armors might be pointless... what will 2% block exactly? Like one or two attacks in the game, like Falco's lazer... which might be good if said character gets wrecked by his laser w/o the armor.

Yeah as I said, we might add this to many/every character to some degree, like I said Snake Jab->Ftilt->Up/Downtilt (You could go from Jab1/2 to Ftilt1 to Up/Down Tilt for guarenteed Tilt Combo, which would be awesome if you ask me :D)

I think especially jump and dash cancels (The new dash) could be pretty nice overall, just think of that!

Marth: Ftilt -> Jump Cancel -> Fair -> Air Dash Cancel -> Fair -> Grab as you land.

This would look INSANE, I would love if that could be a true combo at low % :>
Just as an example :D

So many possibilities to make this an awesome hack <3

As an elaboration on the Homing attack idea, you could have it work like this, when you use it, you fly towards the person you last hit. If you are hit, you can't use homing attack until you hit someone again. Homing cancel could be something that uses some of the charge meter if that gets implemented.

Is this like sonics homing attack?

I dont know if I like this idea, I think I need more details for that, to understand how you would want to include that.

As for the reverse brawl response... (since it might be merged)

-- Mario --
not sure what fireball cape means... if it's just a fire cape, I will say that adding random elementals does make a hack look far less professional, but it might be fine here.
Please elaborate on the grounded down special more.

-- Luigi --
I like the sliding down smash idea; it's very fitting of his character.

-- Yoshi --
For the egg roll, I assume you mean super armor, which isn't a bad idea... you should be able to grab him out of it though (which super armor allows for).
I think a bigger explosion, which be more canon (black yoshi from yoshi's story) would work best.
The nado seems out of place and I don't like the idea of adding a random factor personally... random can be done right, which would be a post in itself for when that is, but in this case I suggest just have it happen always or not at all.
I could be wrong, but I think the Yoshi's side-aerial-special you suggest is currently impossible to add...
I'm not sure why you would nerf his grabs so badly... I thought grabs were one of the main draws of playing yoshi. If anything I would expect a buff of sorts, like making chain grabs at low percents or on good reads/ bad DI.

-- Donkey Kong --
Personally, I think you should keep his gournded up-B
Not sure why his aerials are being buffed so much and his ground moves are being nerfed so much... 10% is a lot.
Also, I think you underestimate how long 10 seconds is for grounding... and if down smash grounds, what's the incentive to use side B? or are you replacing this?

-- Captain Falcon --
ALL moves spike? Could make an interesting tech chase character, but if all moves serve the same function, he might be a bit silly... also, it would really hurt his ability to chain things the way he does... I would hope it's not literally all moves.
Knee of justice is a "smsmash?" ...is it not forward air now? Please elaborate.
Only 5% faster on Falcon punch probably wouldn't need the nerf of higher end lag, it's not enough of a speed buff to make it much more useful... if you speed it up enough I could see this though.
The fire trail sounds awesome for falcon kick... an aerial cancel for this move at any point would be cool, though I would make it a jump cancel and then not have it give a jump back (unless maybe you let the move complete?). Canceling at any point for the grounded version would make it probably next to unpunlishable... Brawl- has it so you can jump cancel it towards the end and that alone is pretty ridiculous... it'd be fine if it were cancelable on hit though. Minus wanted to do this but they couldn't get it to work for some reason... it's possible though, I'm pretty sure.

-- Kirby --
The paralyze effect could be cool... is it a reference at all?
I'm not sure the pan is possible... Same with the spawning stars down special.

Sorry for the ridiculously long post. Also, sorry for saying I'm unsure this will go anywhere... but it's common for people to say they will do something and then realize it's harder than they thought. I do hope this happens. Good luck and let me know what you think of the criticism... I can move the reverse brawl comments onto the reverse brawl thread if you so wish.

No Problem, I can understand you!
I think you should post the comments there, we very likely merge, but so far we didnt
Its just easier to work together and have many people on this project ^^
But if we merge the threads, your post will be in the right thread anyway.

I hope you answer on my answer to your post, because I think you have quite some interest and the more opinions the better we can make those idea before we finally go into modding them into the game

Edit: You should change "How do you think about them?" to "What do you think about them?" ...I saw that you're German, it's a common mistake; just letting you know since it is in the title of the thread.

Oh thanks! I always try to improve my English, so every grammar nazi is very welcome!
I try my best to articulate as good as possible, but its not easy if English isnt your mother tongue, but at least I try right ;P
I will change that

Cya!

 

[Kink-Link5]

Please take more note from games like MB, AH, BB, GG, 3S, alpha, SFEX, and EFZ than SFIV though. That game is like the Brawl of street fighter games- slow, defensive, and terribly unfun to watch from a spectator's seat.

 

[xDD-Master]

Dont worry I also play or watch the other games. I still like FADC though.
Parry would be WAY TOO AWESOME! But I'm not sure if it would fit... and I'm not sure how exactly we should implement it. I know how the theory works for this, but I'm not sure about how to mod it.

If you got ideas, just share them with me / us. Maybe it will get into the mod, who knows.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The shield things, no dodges/rolls, and air dash over air dodge are the best things I can think to incorporate into this project for the time being.

 

[xDD-Master]

Hm air dash instead of air dodge and "instant" ground dash instead of roll / spotdodge sounds interesting, would feel pretty weird if we would do that, but actually that could be pretty fun and cool, and this would make this mod very unique, definitely ._.

We can take out SDI and knockback growth for some moves, so that the same combos can be done all the time, while leaving it for some attacks so that its still possible to kill...

Of course you still need to read DI, but with/for some moves/strings it would be impossible to DI them completely out anyway, if we would take out SDI and knockback growth.

But many "Directly Up Sending" moves should then send the oppenant more to the side of course, otherwise combos would be too easy. But true combos across the stage that make 40-50% would be really cool.
Even some Infinites wouldnt be THAT bad (If they are VERY HARD of course).


I just always think about Marth comboing the oppenant completely across the stage with Ftilt, Fair and Fthrow. That would completely ****. But we would have to alter the other grabs of course then, so that he cant just combo and bthrow combo back and forth on the stage XD


What do you think? Is this a good idea o.O? I'm not sure... but somehow this sounds really interesting to me :o

In general I think adding some true combos would be pretty nice.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I was imagining more that Shielding would start and end very quickly, but with no rolls, OoS options become more about dropping the shield quickly enough and using a fast attack. Meanwhile, higher amounts of shield angling, smaller, longer lasting shields with higher shield stun, would emphasize mixups and shield pressure to get shield pokes. There would still be shield breaks and some pressure strings could even lead to them, but mess up the pressure and the shielding opponent has any punishment option at their disposal. Rolls would only end up being redundant under this idea.

Grabs are an issue, however. Grab breaking in a traditional fighting game sense is not possible as far as I know, although it might be possible to make a command like pressing back during the catch animation cause a break. Why back? Because when shield angling, you are pressing toward your opponent in general. The ability to react or predict and move it the opposite direction is what makes parrying so intuitive in SFIII, as a misread shield angle would leave your entire front open to attacks, while not reacting leaves you open to a grab.

 

[Mera Mera]

I would say smash canceling into a dash sounds interesting and would be fine especially if you couldn't attack immediately out of dash.

Idea for the dash: it should be character specific, but around 10-18 frames where you can't attack for most characters... otherwise there's little incentive to use you're normal run. Also, we could make it jump cancelable earlier. For the dashes... I was thinking, if we get rid of roll, we could have a forward and backward dash on the ground for everyone while having no directional input for the aerial one as it goes in the same direction regardless (or maybe we'd want two? I think when we first make them we should just have it a set direction and see what we think).

I like the idea of getting rid of roll and air dodge... perhaps keep shield and spot dodge though? Not sure... Getting rid of shield would mean we'd have to be careful about giving everyone a way to deal with spamming projectiles... I don't want a mod where spamming is a legitimate tactic.

On that note, I will say I'm rather against removing DI aspects out... I know we're trying to make this "unsmash-like," but I think the major appeal of smash, is it's knockback growth and DI mechanics, shortly followed by the idea of having an edge and death boundaries.

True combos will happen, though I would honestly rather that any combo longer than 2 or 3 hits would require SOME reaction to the way the opponent DI'd and much more than 4 hits should require reads where you couldn't just see how they DI and react.

That marth combo sounds cool, but if that could be done at all percents, then you would know that every time marth hits with a forward tilt, if he DOESN'T do this combo, he did something wrong... and I think a game that straight forward would be less fun to play. It'd be great if something that long would work at lower percents though.

With regards to grab breaking... I don't see the need for it personally... It's a nerf on grabs, and in smash, if the person you're facing is good at spacing and always moving around, you pretty much should only be able to grab him when he whiffs or screws up... sooooo... why give them an escape? Keep in mind shield grabbing happens FAR less against people who are good at spacing and I think the mod should be made with higher level of play in mind.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No dodges is a dramatic buff to grabs, while the inclusion of dodges as they function now (OoS) is detrimental to pressure strings and offensive gameplay.

Wait you're talking about using grabs in a defensive manor? Is it 2008 again all of a sudden?

 

[Mera Mera]

I said possibly keeping spot dodge... and normally rolls lead to getting grabbed UNLESS the person mindlessly keeps pressuring. If someone rolls and you're not already committing to an action, you can run and grab them, because rolls have vulnerability frames towards the end. This is one of the major reasons to dash dance (the other major reason is to make it hard for the opponent to know whether or not they can hit you with their burst zones and whether or not you can hit them with yours).
Edit: things like well spaced gabs, which have low commitment, also work well against a shielding opponents... if you commit something, be it a grab or an attack, the roll will let them escape.

I'm talking about grabs in general, not just as a defense. You can only use grabs as an occasional mix up (the opponent frequently sheilds when you approach, in which case they are bad players and of course go ahead and garb all you want, reading is apart of the game too), to punish end lag on their moves (so whiffs in other words), to tech chase, and to punish rolls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw
(his second tutorial, which is on reading, is also really good)
The video is melee but it still applies to brawl.

Since spot dodge is a much better option against a predicted grab, I don't see taking away rolls as a buff to grabs.

 

[Kink-Link5]

A/LP into Grab is a legitimate mixup in just about every fighting game I can think of. This has nothing to do with how and why grabs are done in Smash, this has to do with making a mod.

 

[Mera Mera]

A into grab? And do you mean low punch by LP? I know a decent number of the smash acronyms, but I'm not familiar with those.

If we are making a mod on smash, how and why grabs are done in smash is relevant to the extent of how our mod will change that and whether or not said change would lead to an interesting meta game.

My thing is, grab has two main functions: as a punish, and a grab break would make this useless since they would be able to escape the punish. And as a high risk high reward mix-up, in which case, it's already high risk, so I'm not seeing the reason for nerfing it.

Edit: I know you can jab -> grab in some versions of smash (eg C Falcon in Brawl plus), if that's what you mean. You have to be pretty close for most of them though and at hight percents I'm pretty sure you can get away from most if not all of them.

 

[Kink-Link5]

A is Weak
LP is Light punch

A/LP -> Grab is done in blockstrings as a mixup along with aerials, overheads, lows, and delays to force a counterhit. The importance, application, and method of pressuring is very different when comparing a guarding system that covers nearly the entire body but can't be held for long to one that focuses on mixups as a trade off for less limited use of the guard.

Even in BlazBlue where the Barrier Guard and Guard Primer systems limit the extent to which you can block, nothing, when at a neutral state, prevents you from doing so.

 

[Mera Mera]

Hmm... while I was picturing this as a mix between smash and say, arcana heart or guilty gear (or BlazBlue), I guess I was viewing this as not as complete of a change over as you have been thinking. While I like the idea of dashes, homing attacks, and some sort of hierarchy for chaining things, I still pictured most everything else unchanged (except for character specific things). Generally, as far as I know, there aren't many characters in smash that have enough shield stun and/or low enough end lag to hit a shield and guarantee a grab (except some auto-canceled aerials?)... There's even a window for people to escape shine -> wavedash -> grab on shield in melee, although admittedly it's pretty small, so I'd count that one as an exception.

Personally, there are some things in smash that I think make it a fantastic game... namely DI leading to improvised combo's, a greater focus on mind games than most fighting games (imo), and edge guarding...

I guess none of that is hurt by adding ease to comboing on shields, as that would definitely make it an aggressive game (though... shield should be useful SOME times or else why even have it?) So maybe it'd be good? Not sure.

Is that where this project is headed?

Anyways, regardless of how I end up feeling about this mod's direction, I will do my best to figure out dashes and homing attacks.

 

[xDD-Master]

It would be cool if we could higher the shield, so it only covers the upper half of a character, characters are hittable on the foot then.

You can only shield down if you hold down (We need tighter shield control if thats possible, the best would be if the shield can only has two states, either down or middle), but then your head isnt safe anymore.

Perfect Shield could be raised to 10 frames, that would equal a parry like system :D

Hitting shield in the air results into air dash, no more air dodges. The first 10 frames of this dash a character doesnt get damage while still being there, so the hurt boxes interact (I dont mean invincibility, so you can dash trough projectiles ;D), if this is possible, otherwise Super Armor, which also is fine.
Its the best, so the game wont be too spammy! Because we will very likely make projectiles even better.

Pressing Shield Left / Right results into Forward and back Dash.


We could get rid of landing lags (Or highly reduce them) to counteract the new perfect shield.

With the new options, and making the game quicker/crazier in general, we get many new options which can be countered now.

This would make spam really less useful, while still keeping the shield drop frames, which means that commiting to shield can always results into grab.


What do you think about this ideas? ^^

 

[Kink-Link5]

It would be cool if we could higher the shield, so it only covers the upper half of a character, characters are hittable on the foot then.

You can only shield down if you hold down (We need tighter shield control if thats possible, the best would be if the shield can only has two states, either down or middle), but then your head isnt safe anymore.

Perfect Shield could be raised to 10 frames, that would equal a parry like system :D

Hitting shield in the air results into air dash, no more air dodges. The first 10 frames of this dash a character doesnt get damage while still being there, so the hurt boxes interact (I dont mean invincibility, so you can dash trough projectiles ;D), if this is possible, otherwise Super Armor, which also is fine.
Its the best, so the game wont be too spammy! Because we will very likely make projectiles even better.

Pressing Shield Left / Right results into Forward and back Dash.


We could get rid of landing lags (Or highly reduce them) to counteract the new perfect shield.

With the new options, and making the game quicker/crazier in general, we get many new options which can be countered now.

This would make spam really less useful, while still keeping the shield drop frames, which means that commiting to shield can always results into grab.


What do you think about this ideas? ^^

SFIII Parry had like 3 frames at most as far as I recall.

I think the best middle ground is just a really small shield and better angling ability in general since it keeps the nature of there being no true "Highs" or "Lows" but rather a higher degree of movement that allows you to cross and mixup an approach in a way to hit a shield from a very different angle than you might in other fighters.

Higher amounts of Shield DI+High Shield stun on moves + More shield angling makes the shield game in itself significantly different from both Smash and other fighters. An "Advancing Guard" that truly does advance forward is a bold concept.

 

[Mera Mera]

There are posts here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266053&page=2 that contain some code you guys are hoping to make/use. One is smash canceling by standardtoaster and one is teching out of grabs by NoAh MenQui (or at least, they posted it and it looks like they wrote it). I would double check and ask them for permission before using it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wow, even done by pressing back to compliment shield angling forward.

 

[standardtoaster]

I would need to fix my example code. Looking at it now, I forgot a few things needed in it.

 

[NoAh MenQui]

my techable grab thing work but I know a more stable way to do it, which will save file size also. I have to re-make it, althout the one I posted in the fighter.pac injection thread works as it tell it, but yeah, there is a more comfortable way to do it.


EDIT:

I never dedicated my time to learn what toaster was trying to teach me if I did learned it, it would help me alot and others aswell. Cause I'm the kind of guy that loves creating new mechanics into brawl. The grab tech is amazing, brings the grab game to a new level, preventing cheap stuff to happen if you read a throw.

Ahh also, grab teching is impossible. But throw teching is still possible, you cannot use the PSA code I used to do "grab" tech (get out of the grab) but if opponent throws you, if you input the buttons before you are actually thrown, you will Tech out of the throw and leaving you in the "Get out of throw" animations

 

[Kink-Link5]

No way to force the action for grab release if back is inputted during the catch action?

 

[Airslash]

http://reversebrawl.icyboards.net/index.php

Am I allowed to link this? If not i'll remove it.

Site up. Projects merged, team is growing! There is a public download available.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Is there some sort of changelist available so I know what to look for?

 

[Airslash]

Is there some sort of changelist available so I know what to look for?

Everything will be updated by our website. Changes, announcements, builds.

We're really pushing to try and get Smashmods to back us, but no response yet.

 

[standardtoaster]

Can you at least make your site available to see without having to make an account on your forum? :/