Project Mewtwo

[SymphonicSage12]

Mewtwo was floaty and light in melee. and it was perfectly fine.

 

[smashmaniac2008]

and he was strong and fast with high HP (but good Defenses which for a legendary means bad defenses) so Fast, Strong, but light... oh wait.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

. . . .

What?

 

[colored blind]

Mewtwo was floaty and light in melee. and it was perfectly fine.

No. It wasn't. It was one of his major weaknesses. And one that made absolutely no sense when you consider that he's 269 freaking pounds.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Lol being psychic and having the ability to levitate (not as in Pokemon) will usually make you light and floaty. And that's why I'm saying to make Disable a MC like Bucket.

 

[colored blind]

Floaty, yes. Light? No. Having the ability to levitate doesn't make you heavier. Especially when it's self imposed. I don't think Mewtwo would use his levitation powers or whatever to help himself die. In any regard, being light and as big as he was in Melee was a huge disadvantage.

 

[SuSa]

IIRC he was lighter then Pikachu.

Pikachu is not 267 ****ing pounds.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Lol good point. He should be more samus-ish, floaty but heavy.

 

[colored blind]

That's what most people agreed upon earlier. Floaty and heavy is the way to go.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Wait, floatiness and weight go hand in hand, unless by weight you mean knockback resistance/speed. I always associated weight with falling speed. :/

 

[Sora Master2.0]

Wait, floatiness and weight go hand in hand, unless by weight you mean knockback resistance/speed. I always associated weight with falling speed. :/

Don't get those confussed, just think of it like this. Fox is one of the fastest fallers in the game. And he's a medium or a light. I can't recall. ^^;

 

[SuSa]

"Gravity" (floatiness) and "Weight" are 2 seperate things.

Download dantarion's SA_Dump and you'll see he has a thing for Gravity and one for Weight.

For example, here is Samus compared to Fox (Floaty/heavy and... not...floaty/light)

Samus:
0.058 Gravity
108 Weight

Fox:
0.175 Gravity
80 Weight

 

[SymphonicSage12]

fox is like the 6th lightest character in the game. >.>

 

[Indigo Jeans]

"Gravity" (floatiness) and "Weight" are 2 seperate things.

Download dantarion's SA_Dump and you'll see he has a thing for Gravity and one for Weight.

For example, here is Samus compared to Fox (Floaty/heavy and... not...floaty/light)

Samus:
0.058 Gravity
108 Weight

Fox:
0.175 Gravity
80 Weight

Alright then. I'm thinking about it IRL. So, a character can be heavy, but gravity can have almost no effect on them in game mechanics, right?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It's a game. It doesn't have to be realistic. Lolz. AND samus has boosters to keep her up anyways.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yeah, I know. My brain just works like that for those kind of things.

 

[colored blind]

Alright then. I'm thinking about it IRL. So, a character can be heavy, but gravity can have almost no effect on them in game mechanics, right?

Yeah. Samus is heavy, but floaty, while Sheik and Fox are light, but fastfallers.

 

[5ive]

Sorry if I'm repeating anyone's idea, but has anyone else noticed Metaknight's running animation is strikingly similar to Mewtwo's?

Just something to consider.

 

[colored blind]

I think Charizard's been mentioned, but not MK. I'm curious if these animation comparisons are even going to be useful if/when model hacking becomes available.

 

[Ridley22]

Wait I'm confused. Is mewtwo actually being made or is this just discussion on how he should be?

Never mind noticed the post above me and figured it out.... Wow am I unobservant. Is that even a word... unobservant....hmmm...

 

[Strong Badam]

Lol being psychic and having the ability to levitate (not as in Pokemon) will usually make you light and floaty.

I'm sure you'd know this.

 

[bobson]

I'm curious if these animation comparisons are even going to be useful if/when model hacking becomes available.

Considering the animations will be made from scratch, no.

I have some time, so here are some other notes:
Disable does a "hard stop" for all vertical momentum in Melee (horizontal is still maintained), in that the instant you use it you'll be pulled down by gravity again. Shadow Ball does a "soft stop" for vertical momentum, in that it removes whatever was boosting you into the air and you will start falling soon as gravity overtakes you again. Confusion does neither, but instead gives you a little vertical boost like Mario's cape does when you use it in the air for the first time. I'm pretty sure there are moves that do all of these already in Brawl, so recreating them should be a matter of figuring out which events cause it.

And here are a bunch of stats from Melee. Since Brawl mechanics are different overall from Melee, these have probably changed in specifics, so I'll list Mewtwo's stats in immediate comparison with other characters who are in Brawl so as to compensate for engine changes:

Mewtwo's weight (how far the character gets knocked horizontally) is less than Marth's and more than Falco's.
Mewtwo's walking speed and acceleration is the same as Samus'.
Mewtwo picks up barrels/crates at the same speed Yoshi does.
Mewtwo carries barrels/crates faster than Ganondorf and slower than no one except DK.
Mewtwo's running speed and acceleration is the same as Kirby's.
Mewtwo's average falling speed is less than the Ice Climbers' and more than Kirby's.
Mewtwo's top falling speed is the same as Peach's but he accelerates to it more quickly.
Mewtwo's fastfall speed is the same as Mario's.
Mewtwo's traction is greater than the Ice Climbers' but less than Marth's.
Mewtwo takes six frames to get off the ground after he jumps. If the general values have changed for this since Melee, his is the same as Jigglypuff's.
Mewtwo's first jump gains as much height as Bowser's, but his second jump (when extended by using an aerial at the end; this is probably not possible to recreate in Brawl, so I say his jump should be this height by default) gains as much height as all of Kirby's jumps combined.
Mewtwo's shorthop height is the same as Ness'.
Mewtwo's horizontal aerial movement speed is the same as Yoshi's.
Mewtwo's grab range is smaller than Jigglypuff's but greater than Peach's.
(thanks, M2K)

I think it'd be optimal for Mewtwo to just be recreated exactly as he was in Melee (compensating for engine changes) as far as possible and then given buffs/nerfs as we see fit afterward.

 

[DarkDragoon]

mewtwo had a pretty good ranged grab in melee

No, he didn't. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't good enough.

Yeah. Psychic being used as a push effect or even a nerfed Din's Fire is fine, but grab, really?

@Bobson: Sigged.

:D Yay!

Why not release your planned out Mewtwo now? PSA v0.1 was released today and I'm sure people are going to be willing to start (I can't run the program because I have a Mac).

o_o I think I'll try putting it together myself then. If I give up I'll hand out the numbers to someone who can do it.

I'm not sure if anyone else is working on this, but I'm gonna be gone for awhile, so I'll post my notes:

Disable is working and easy to recreate; just a basic hitbox with a stun flag. As of now it's pretty unbalanced, though; it's a free fsmash even at 0% and I can't figure out how to decrease the stun time. Likely solution is to increase the lag on the move. Oh, and it needs separate air/ground mechanics so it stops halting your momentum in the air.

Hmm... Thinking about it, I think we should get rid of Mewtwo's disable and give him some sort of "Psyburst" move. It'll be a GTFO move, and kinda like DK's ground pound...shoot out a small invisible wave around Mewtwo, anyone inside it gets Dark-fired. :D

Teleport looks to be a little more difficult. Zelda's up-B, Sheik's up-B, Metaknight's cape, etc. are all brimming with undefineds and editing the subactions they call only affects what you can do before and after the teleport. Length, teleport time, directional capabilities, and whether or not it causes freefall are all things that we'll have to figure out by trial and error.

o.O Interesting. I'll work with it.

Confusion is probably possible by making a grab hitbox that sends the opponent very slightly up, forcing a techchase before they get out of stun. I don't know if it's possible to recreate the reflect-but-not-really-reflect effect it had on projectiles in Melee, but I think we can settle for an actual reflector if it isn't. And let's make it flip the opponents around like Mario's cape, too, just to screw with their heads. It wouldn't be Confusion without being confusing.

I still say abandon this for the Dins Fire-ish push away thingy.

Shadow Ball is obvious. Aura Sphere, however, is insufficient as a strict replacement (at least for me) until I can get it to fire in that back-and-forth motion Shadow Ball had. Since the sphere is a prop and we can't edit props yet, this will have to wait.

Put a SIN or COS wave in for movement path or something. =D! I'll have to take a look at the program first, see if that's even possible.

Nair, usmash, jab (first hit), and grab all spawn hitboxes from relatively similar bones for Lucario and Mewtwo, so these should be able to be recreated without the model importer. Mewtwo's dsmash could also be theoretically recreated by using Lucario's down-angled ftilt animation and having it spawn a darkness effect.

Yup, sounds good to me.

A way we could accurately recreate Mewtwo's moveset on Lucario while still having it be transferable between the two models would be to associate all the hitboxes to a bone in the same spots on Lucario's and Mewtwo's models like the torso.

Mewtwo's standing animation should be him floating off the ground with his arms crossed. Totally badass.

On that note, making acceptable model animation is hard. I'll be able to get it done eventually, but ****ed if it won't take forever. Are there any people interested in this who are actually experienced with working with models?

Mewtwo's trophy model needs more detailed textures before we can use it as a character model. It looks out of place next to the more detailed textures on the normal characters.

General mechanics should be easy to recreate; test where Mewtwo is in relation to other characters in Melee, then use those results to come up with values for Brawl.

Until it's possible to repack BRSARs, getting rid of all of Lucario's voice SFX and having Mewtwo just go silent seems like the best method.

Mewtwo, obviously, will have to be balanced separately for vBrawl and Brawl+.

I wish Brawl had a debug mode.

Life throws bull**** at you at the worst possible times, I swear. I won't be gone indefinitely, but it'll be at least a week or two before I can get back to working on his moveset, let alone the model animations. If someone else decides to take this up in the meantime, please please don't do a half-***** job of it. Getting Mewtwo into Brawl is going to require making all the prim and polish of every other character, and this game is polished so much it shines more than a Melee Fox main.

=o If you have any codes done already...and are even around to read this...please hook me up with whatever work you've done already other than notes...and we'll co-op!
:D

I think it'd be optimal for Mewtwo to just be recreated exactly as he was in Melee (compensating for engine changes) as far as possible and then given buffs/nerfs as we see fit afterward.

I agree with this as far as his properties go, but I think we should experiment with his moveset[as I have previously mentioned], since his confusion and disable are pretty much entirely useless in most situations...and can sometimes get you punished on successful execution...
-DD

 

[V-K]

imagine his grab with the range of Links grab. That would be crazy gameplay oO

 

[bobson]

=o If you have any codes done already...and are even around to read this...please hook me up with whatever work you've done already other than notes...and we'll co-op!
:D

All I've gotten finished so far is a half-decent version of Disable using Lucario's ftilt animation and about thirty different PACs with broken moves that I was experimenting with. I've been working largely by trial-and-error so far, but I'll PM you the things that are working.

I agree with this as far as his properties go, but I think we should experiment with his moveset[as I have previously mentioned], since his confusion and disable are pretty much entirely useless in most situations...and can sometimes get you punished on successful execution...

Keep in mind they can be buffed to be useful, though. Confusion in particular could be made to be a guaranteed techchase a la G&W's dthrow, with extra spicey mindgames due to the flipping effect. Disable, while tricky to balance away from being "free kill move of your choice," could also be significantly more useful. At the very least, it does damage and resets your opponents' zoning (and we can make it do something different in the air if we want).

As much as I want to give Mewtwo something new and cool and awesome, I feel a sort of duty to keep him "pure," so to speak. Removing Disable and the like is like removing Jiggs' Sing; yeah, it's pretty cruddy, but she's just not Jiggs without it.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I don't have time to read throught all this info, so I'd just like to make a quick suggestion (if not suggested already). Using Project SA, giving Lucario Shiek's/Zelda's recovery would greatly simulate Mewtwo's.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

NO! KEEP DISABLE!!!! And try to work with confusion. we should make all his moves like melee until they PROVE to be impossible.

 

[DarkDragoon]

NO! KEEP DISABLE!!!! And try to work with confusion. we should make all his moves like melee until they PROVE to be impossible.

T.T But but but...
I'm just seeing it from a gameplay standpoint here...Confusion can stay the way it is, just reduce ending lag and wham! we have a good techchase move.

Disable is really the only big problem.

If it makes the opponent stunned[we should actually assign it the "shieldbreak" property(unless that is stun)], it needs either lots of start up or end lag.

Giving it lots of end lag will make the move useless like in melee since most players CAN hit the number of inputs required to "un-stun" in the amount of time it takes Mewtwo to start up his next attack after finishing disable. If we increase the start up time, then it will be impossible to use effectively unless you like...techchase it...and they don't block it or attack you first...

I really do think that changing Disbable out with a GTFO move would be a better option for Mewtwo, but if you guys want us to exhaust all options for disable before bagging it, I don't see the harm in doing so.
-DD

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well, if Confusion was recreated as bobson suggested, I'd think it would be good.

Disable was good, except for one thing: It should work even if the opponent isn't facing you. That way
roll->Disable would be a good surprise sorta thing.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Well, if Confusion was recreated as bobson suggested, I'd think it would be good.

Disable was good, except for one thing: It should work even if the opponent isn't facing you. That way
roll->Disable would be a good surprise sorta thing.

>_> Well the "facing you" thing is just another balance check for a move that gives you a free hit.

Its all these little knick-knacks that make me want to just scrap the move. T.T~
-DD

 

[Indigo Jeans]

If it makes the opponent stunned[we should actually assign it the "shieldbreak" property(unless that is A)], it needs either lots of start up or end lag.

-DD

Yeah, it had the shieldbreak effect. I would personally be happy add some lag if it meant it being able to stun from behind. But nothing so crazy if makes the move completely useless.

 

[Adler]

What will Mewtwo's Final Smash be?

Nevermind. It's been said.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

I'm okay with making M2 the way he was in Melee (stat wise)
except for the weight. It's okay to be "pure" and that, but if you keep M2's light weight, You are definitely going to need to make his ground and air games beastly, b/c that would make him the largest target in the game, and he would be lighter than most of the cast.
Seriously, just make him DDD's weight and he should be fine.

On Confusion: so we can make it into a techchase move. But what will he techchase with? He's not at all that fast; and without WDing, I'm not seeing many options.

On Disable: give it more startup time, because this could basically be a lead in to a grab, which kill. Basically, if the oponent is stupid enough to get hit by the move, he deserves to take some heavy damage/ get thrown.

 

[SuSa]

DDD is like 490 pounds.... lol

When I get home and can look at gravity/weight I'll try to brainstorm a few that'd work. I think he should be really close to Samus, maybe just slightly lighter (assumption that her power suit is heavy, if anyone can link me to that information being false we can have him be slightly heavier then Samus)

I feel having him close to Samus's weight and gravity would be best.

If you can predict or read their tech, you should be able to dash and use Confusion again to get them with it. Also depending on characters (their roll distances being the main one) you may be able to predict a roll behind you to fsmash or something.

Disable: Making it slow takes away a large amount of the move. IMO it should work more like Melee. Where you can hope to get a grab, jab, ftilt, dtilt, utilt but not really a smash unless your opponent doesn't mash. (EG: medium risk, "small" but useful reward)

EDIT:
I seriously spelled "false" as "falce"

 

[Indigo Jeans]

D3's weight? On Mewtwo? No. I'd say Samus' weight.

 

[Shadic]

Probably lighter than that, just a little. Wario/Yoshi seems perfect.

 

[jokey665]

Mewtwo weighs 269 lbs according to the pokedex, so he should be pretty heavy. Heavier than Snake :X

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Didn't we already go over the whole "Pokedex weight" thing? >__>

 

[SuSa]

If you guy's don't mind. I'd like to be placed in charge of weight/gravity... I can compare him to everyone elses weight/gravity (along with getting actual data from other sources to help me find the perfect balance) and when he's release we can always adjust it.

I'm finding it a rather waste of time to argue over this (when most everyone agreed on floaty, but heavy like Samus) and for balance purposes, we haven't quite seen what Mewtwo is capable of. If we need to make him die a little later/sooner to balance him a bit (although we could just edit his moves to balance him) then so be it.

I'd rather argue over exactly how Disable should work (my view of medium risk, small reward and others view of high risk high reward, etc.) then weight/gravity.

Or anyone else who wants to download an SA Data Dump that has every characters weight/gravity then you can also look at numbers and decide what you'd think is fair.

I'll make a huge post about this on Friday (sometime before 4pm) or Thursday night to explain more and use data and stuff to support why I chose the numbers I did.

/wall of text

tl;dr
I wanna do the weight/gravity and be a part of Mewtwo's creation because I'm a Mewtwo geek.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I call dibs on move buff/nerf. I just can't actually do the editing. I don't know how. XD

Example: Disable. Like SuSa said, we are having problems deciding on HRHR or MRMR. I'd say this should come after we come to a consensus, because, depending on if he's light or heavy. Heavy, we could do HRHR; light, we should do LRLR/MRMR.