Project Matchup: Unofficial P:M Matchup Chart

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inb4 fox ddd pichu wins apex

 

[9bit]

If you pick Pikachu at the character select screen and hold L+R+Z you get Pichu



































Kappa

 

[StevenBeastMode]

You can have your fancy "match up charts" but whatever character wins Apex is broken. It's a smash game. Smash and broken charecters are synonymous. Calling it now. We can't have good things.


in4 fox wins

Except if one of the spacies wins. They won't be considered broken, just "top tier".

 

[Kati]

I think this thread is a good idea, but perhaps the focus should be on the old melee mu's to start with. Falcon, Ganon, Link, and Samus all received significant buffs in PM and had/have significant play in melee to produce detailed mu's. Looking at the extremes and discussing if there have been any changes could be the first concrete steps in making a pm mu chart.

For convenience:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBM)

 

[Kneato]

So now that the beast known has Apex 2014 has happened and we have had a chance to see a variety of matchups out in the wild:

Any new speculations? Inb4 Pit vs Everyone = 70:30

 

[Deleted member]

I just think that pit has a lot of even matchups. He doesn't dominate, which is fine, but he doesn't lose either

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

In order to have an advantageous match-up, Pit basically needs an iffy recovery + someone who doesn't completely dominate him on stage. Captain Falcon and Roy could qualify; Ike and Pit go pretty even in my opinion, and I feel like Mewtwo gives Pit a tough time due to a strong combo game combined with him being very difficult to gimp.

Mew2King v/s Armada on Dreamland notwithstanding ...

 

[Arc Tangent]

In my experience as a Kirby player, I've found that Kirby is extremely effective against Wolf, Fox, and Falco.
I hope this helps!

P.S Kirby is pretty effective against Marth as well.

 

[victinivcreate1]

In my experience as a Kirby player, I've found that Kirby is extremely effective against Wolf, Fox, and Falco.
I hope this helps!

P.S Kirby is pretty effective against Marth as well.

Shh.. no need to spread false misinformation.

Spacies slaughter Kirby for obvious reasons. They crap on Kirby's tiny shield, Fox and Wolf can KO him at 85 guaranteed, Falco 90, they combo him easily and they can safely pressure Kirby outside of his grab range. The only thing Kirby has on spacies is back air and down throw fsmash I believe.

Marth wrecks Kirby easily too. Spacing. Tippers. Kirby"s only move to compete with Marth's fair is disjointed bair, and Kirby lacks Jigglypuff's aerial control so its unsafe on block (plus Marth's long grab easily outspaces Kirby's grab, and he can avoid getting shieldgrabbed altogether with good spacing). All of Kirby's potential approaches get stuffed with rising SH fair and Kirby has no real way to deal with properly spaced landing fair on shield.

 

[Exodo]

i think that a matchup chart is impossible to make until the final update of project m is released since the changes that character get during this updates, and specially now, approaching the next update (3.5), i think its a pretty odd moment to come up with this.

 

[Arc Tangent]

Shh.. no need to spread false misinformation.

Spacies slaughter Kirby for obvious reasons. They crap on Kirby's tiny shield, Fox amd Wolf can KO him at 85 guaranteed, Falco 90, they combo him easily and they can safely pressure Kirby outside of his grab range. The only thing Kirby has on spacies is back air and down throw fsmash I believe.

Maryh wrecks Kirby easily too. Spacing. Tippers. Kirby"s only move to compete with Marth's fair is disjointed bair, and Kirby alacks Jigglypuff's aerial control so its unsafe on block (plus Marth's long grab easily outspaves Kirby's grab, and he can avoid getting shieldgrabbed altogether with good spacing). All of Kirby's potential approaches get stuffed with rising SH fair¡ and Kirby has no real way to deal with properly spaced landing fair on shield.

Have you ever seen a decent Kirby against a spacey!?!?! Kirby just has to side throw and edge-gaurd, and kirby can get in very easily with his dash attack. As for Marth, side doge, grab, down throw, Hammer.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Have you ever seen a decent Kirby against a spacey!?!?! Kirby just has to side throw and edge-gaurd, and kirby can get in very easily with his dash attack. As for Marth, side doge, grab, down throw, Hammer.

If that was the case Chu Dat would destroy anyone in PM daily. But wait he doesn't.

Also your tactics don't seem like they'd work at higher levels of play. I'm not claiming to be leagues ahead of you, but what happens if the Marth is correctly spacing , and the Fox laser camps? Especially the latter. He is called the most versatile character in the game for a reason. Fox craps on Kirby. As for Marth? If you think the MU is anything less than 6:4 Marth, then I don't even know what to say. I shouldn't need to explain that.

 

[Arc Tangent]

If that was the case Chu Dat would destroy anyone in PM daily. But wait he doesn't.

Also your tactics don't seem like they'd work at higher levels of play. I'm not claiming to be leagues ahead of you, but what happens if the Marth is correctly spacing , and the Fox laser camps? Especially the latter. He is called the most versatile character in the game for a reason. Fox craps on Kirby. As for Marth? If you think the MU is anything less than 6:4 Marth, then I don't even know what to say. I shouldn't need to explain that.

Funny you would say that because I've faced a laser-camping Fox and a Marth who has a pretty good spacing game as Kirby and wrecked both.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Based on the strategies you've listed, I would LOVE to see some video of your Kirby.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Funny you would say that because I've faced a laser-camping Fox and a Marth who has a pretty good spacing game as Kirby and wrecked both.

What tournament? Or how bad was the lag if it was wifi? How consistent was the Marth's spacing? How fast was the Fox? Any videos?

 

[Arc Tangent]

What tournament? Or how bad was the lag if it was wifi? How consistent was the Marth's spacing? How fast was the Fox? Any videos?

Locals, pretty consistent since he was able to get to finals, the Fox was decently fast, and unfortunately no vids we don't have a recorder. Also, I forgot to mention Kirby can crouch under lasers.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Locals, pretty consistent since he was able to get to finals, the Fox was decently fast, and unfortunately no vids we don't have a recorder. Also, I forgot to mention Kirby can crouch under lasers.

This really sounds like you are playing really bad foxes, and the local has no good player. Honestly your tactics are very reminiscent of a beginner competitive player.

 

[Arc Tangent]

This really sounds like you are playing really bad foxes, and the local has no good player. Honestly your tactics are very reminiscent of a beginner competitive player.

Well you obviously have never faced a decent Kirby have you? To be completely honest however, the fox that I face isn't all that great, but have you ever seen chu play? He ducks lasers for days, and so can any Kirby.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Well you obviously have never faced a decent Kirby have you? To be completely honest however, the fox that I face isn't all that great, but have you ever seen chu play? He ducks lasers for days, and so can any Kirby.

I havent played a good Kirby yes. But have you faced anyone of any decent caliber?

 

[Arc Tangent]

I havent played a good Kirby yes. But have you faced anyone of any decent caliber?

Not anyone technically ranked, but I think that the Marth is pretty good. However, the fox was decent at best.

 

[Phaiyte]

I think Peach is a very good pick against Snake. She has a very easy time maneuvering around traps and countering his normals. I can't even play Peach and I can beat most of the better Snake players that I know when all I do is float and bait for bairs all day.

 

[Phaiyte]

oops ignore this

 

[Phaiyte]

This really sounds like you are playing really bad foxes, and the local has no good player. Honestly your tactics are very reminiscent of a beginner competitive player.

Chudat is most definitely not a beginner. What you're doing right now is only assuming Spacie options vs Kirby, and not Kirby's options vs Spacies. This is very reminiscent of a beginner competitive player. The kind that scoffs at anything they don't consider "high tier".

 

[victinivcreate1]

Chudat is most definitely not a beginner. What you're doing right now is only assuming Spacie options vs Kirby, and not Kirby's options vs Spacies. This is very reminiscent of a beginner competitive player. The kind that scoffs at anything they don't consider "high tier".

Down throw>kill follow ups aren't guaranteed on spacies until over 200.
Bair camp<laser camp
Fox has a much faster, more reliable kill move on Kirby. Kirby doesn't.

Yeah Kirby can combo fox. But anyone can combo fox. Thing is, how effective is Fox's game against the opponent. And Fox's game works on Kirby no problem. nair up smash Kirby dead at 70.
Also, Kirby can duck under lasers, but can't approach without getting hit.

Your move, tiers don exits.

 

[Phaiyte]

Down throw>kill follow ups aren't guaranteed on spacies until over 200.
Bair camp<laser camp
Fox has a much faster, more reliable kill move on Kirby. Kirby doesn't.

Yeah Kirby can combo fox. But anyone can combo fox. Thing is, how effective is Fox's game against the opponent. And Fox's game works on Kirby no problem. nair up smash Kirby dead at 70.
Also, Kirby can duck under lasers, but can't approach without getting hit.

Your move, tiers don exits.

Kirby has a better grab range and can tech chase for years on reaction with horizontal sideB and can do literally infinite different mixups every time he does it. More coverage on his moves; nair alone beating out or clanking everything he does, and can kill Fox at less than 70 in a myriad of ways. He doesn't even need most of his moves to win. All he needs is 1 side throw into a sideB hammer and Kirby will win more often than you're willing to admit. Kirby himself isn't a bad character. Kirby has bad players. Good luck even landing an Usmash on a good Kirby in the first place.

 

[Arc Tangent]

Down throw>kill follow ups aren't guaranteed on spacies until over 200.
Bair camp<laser camp
Fox has a much faster, more reliable kill move on Kirby. Kirby doesn't.

Yeah Kirby can combo fox. But anyone can combo fox. Thing is, how effective is Fox's game against the opponent. And Fox's game works on Kirby no problem. nair up smash Kirby dead at 70.
Also, Kirby can duck under lasers, but can't approach without getting hit.

Your move, tiers don exits.

Do I actually have to name all of Kirby's kill moves against Fox for you to understand? Here goes:
Side throw to b-air or n-air
Side smash at 80%
Down smash at 100%
Up smash at 130%
Down B at 130%
Side B at 80%
Down throw side B at 60%
Up B spike
and if none of that works the Neutral B suicide.
Am I missing anything?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Do I actually have to name all of Kirby's kill moves against Fox for you to understand? Here goes:
Side throw to b-air or n-air
Side smash at 80%
Down smash at 100%
Up smash at 130%
Down B at 130%
Side B at 80%
Down throw side B at 60%
Up B spike
and if none of that works the Neutral B suicide.
Am I missing anything?

Frame 1 shine. Frame 2 jab. Incredible dash dance. Decent wavedash. Recovery that isn't even that free of an edgeguard. Up throw up air. tldr; insane mobility and options.

Oh Kirby wants to air camp? What ever goes up, must come down. You can't stay airborne forever. And Fox has up air. He isn't afraid of air camping.

Also, Kirby is struggling in the neutral game. Fox can never get hit if he plays evasive enough. Once Fox starts beating dash attack, whats Kirby gonna do? He has horrible approach options.

 

[Arc Tangent]

Frame 1 shine. Frame 2 jab. Incredible dash dance. Decent wavedash. Recovery that isn't even that free of an edgeguard. Up throw up air. tldr; insane mobility and options.

Oh Kirby wants to air camp? What ever goes up, must come down. You can't stay airborne forever. And Fox has up air. He isn't afraid of air camping.

Also, Kirby is struggling in the neutral game. Fox can never get hit if he plays evasive enough. Once Fox starts beating dash attack, whats Kirby gonna do? He has horrible approach options.

I'm going to break down your post and hopefully show you how wrong you are. "Frame 1 shine. Frame 2 jab." I doubt you could get that combo on any Kirby worth his salt. "Incredible dash dance. Decent wavedash. Recovery that isn't even that free of an edgeguard." I could argue with this but it's very confusing." Up throw up air." You up throw and i'll down B. "tlldr; insane mobility and options." Like what. "Oh Kirby wants to air camp? What ever goes up, must come down. You can't stay airborne forever. And Fox has up air. He isn't afraid of air camping." Yeah, but if I were you I'd look out for falling rocks and cutters. "Also, Kirby is struggling in the neutral game." I refer to my previous post. "Fox can never get hit if he plays evasive enough." If by evasive you mean he stays as far away from Kirby as he can get, then yes. "Once Fox starts beating dash attack, whats Kirby gonna do? He has horrible approach options." Again, my previous post.
What do you have to say to that.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm going to break down your post and hopefully show you how wrong you are. "Frame 1 shine. Frame 2 jab." I doubt you could get that combo on any Kirby worth his salt. "Incredible dash dance. Decent wavedash. Recovery that isn't even that free of an edgeguard." I could argue with this but it's very confusing." Up throw up air." You up throw and i'll down B. "tlldr; insane mobility and options." Like what. "Oh Kirby wants to air camp? What ever goes up, must come down. You can't stay airborne forever. And Fox has up air. He isn't afraid of air camping." Yeah, but if I were you I'd look out for falling rocks and cutters. "Also, Kirby is struggling in the neutral game." I refer to my previous post. "Fox can never get hit if he plays evasive enough." If by evasive you mean he stays as far away from Kirby as he can get, then yes. "Once Fox starts beating dash attack, whats Kirby gonna do? He has horrible approach options." Again, my previous post.
What do you have to say to that.

I know some things were actually unclear so I'll try to clarify.

My definition of evasion, in terms of Smash
1. Complete run away, camp game. Fox can do this.
2. Spacing yourself just outside your opponent's range of their most effective options. Mango plays like this, and most Fox mains can do this to a decent degree, spacing with nair, shine, jab, bair, ftilt, etc.
Once Fox starts playing #2, Kirby will not win. Kirby has to commit to a lot of things to be effective, similar to Marth. However Kirby lacks Marth's speed and disjointed range on all moves. Once Fox starts spacing Kirbs, the only option Kirby can fight this with is bair, while if Fox was playing #1, Kirby could force a lot more bad situations on Fox.

Fox's insane mobility options. Do I really need to explain? I know this is Melee Fox, and I know he is nearly frame perfect, but look at this

Fox has the mobility to easily avoid falling Rocks and Final Cutters. Kirby kinda has to commit to Cutter. Rock, not so much. But he loses a jump when performing Rock Cancels so thus, what goes up must come down.

Kirby is struggling in neutral. You just listed kill options. Approaches: Dash Attack, RAR bair and horizontal Final Cutter. Thats it. Safest one is RAR bair.

Up throw, bait the rock cancel, up air. Or wait for you to plop and get a regrab.

Fox's recovery is both free and not that free. Fire Fox is hella long. And the thing has annoying priority.

Jab and shine aren't really combo starters on Kirby. They're pressure options. Kirby's tiny shield exacerbates this. 3 waveshines and Kirby's shield is in trouble.

Also jab up smash free kill setup on Kirby. And the classic nair/fair1 up smash and weak bair up smash.

 

[Arc Tangent]

I know some things were actually unclear so I'll try to clarify.

My definition of evasion, in terms of Smash
1. Complete run away, camp game. Fox can do this.
2. Spacing yourself just outside your opponent's range of their most effective options. Mango plays like this, and most Fox mains can do this to a decent degree, spacing with nair, shine, jab, bair, ftilt, etc.
Once Fox starts playing #2, Kirby will not win. Kirby has to commit to a lot of things to be effective, similar to Marth. However Kirby lacks Marth's speed and disjointed range on all moves. Once Fox starts spacing Kirbs, the only option Kirby can fight this with is bair, while if Fox was playing #1, Kirby could force a lot more bad situations on Fox.

Fox's insane mobility options. Do I really need to explain? I know this is Melee Fox, and I know he is nearly frame perfect, but look at this

Fox has the mobility to easily avoid falling Rocks and Final Cutters. Kirby kinda has to commit to Cutter. Rock, not so much. But he loses a jump when performing Rock Cancels so thus, what goes up must come down.

Kirby is struggling in neutral. You just listed kill options. Approaches: Dash Attack, RAR bair and horizontal Final Cutter. Thats it. Safest one is RAR bair.

Up throw, bait the rock cancel, up air. Or wait for you to plop and get a regrab.

Fox's recovery is both free and not that free. Fire Fox is hella long. And the thing has annoying priority.

Jab and shine aren't really combo starters on Kirby. They're pressure options. Kirby's tiny shield exacerbates this. 3 waveshines and Kirby's shield is in trouble.

Also jab up smash free kill setup on Kirby. And the classic nair/fair1 up smash and weak bair up smash.

I don't have much time so here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVqDbBlu_gI

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I don't have much time so here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVqDbBlu_gI

This is totally unrelated to your conversation, but...

TETRAFLORA IS A KIRBY GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Joe73191]

so many characters are getting revamped and reworked in 3.5 that a matchup chart will be 100% different, Any and all data we have gathered at this point will be obsolete. This is why we can't have nice things because characters are constantly changing.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't have much time so here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVqDbBlu_gI

Most of this dude's opponents appear to suck. I mean the Falcon was using Falcon Kick lol. Secondly nearly all the characters in that video are already highly gimpable,save for Diddy Kong and Mario. Third, whats his tournament record like? I bet if he faced any good players like GuruKid or Wizzy or Mew2King half of this junk wouldn't work.

 

[Arc Tangent]

Most of this dude's opponents appear to suck. I mean the Falcon was using Falcon Kick lol. Secondly nearly all the characters in that video are already highly gimpable,save for Diddy Kong and Mario. Third, whats his tournament record like? I bet if he faced any good players like GuruKid or Wizzy or Mew2King half of this junk wouldn't work.

Before we go any further I have to make sure your talking about PM Fox and not Melee Fox, because I'm talking about PM Fox.
And here is some food for thought:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g71MzixD2fE

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Most of this dude's opponents appear to suck. I mean the Falcon was using Falcon Kick lol. Secondly nearly all the characters in that video are already highly gimpable,save for Diddy Kong and Mario. Third, whats his tournament record like? I bet if he faced any good players like GuruKid or Wizzy or Mew2King half of this junk wouldn't work.

Lol don't assume things based off a video that was supposed to be silly. Tetra is mad good, he keeps up with Anther and Emukiller. And the one who was doing the Falcon kick was Bidoof, and he's just as good as tetra.

I can guarantee that everyone in that video would probably wreck you.

 

[Eionio]

I started trying to fill this chart out and it is much harder than I thought. I just genuinely don't know some matchups. Like DK vs Snake for example I don't know how that would play out because I have never seen it. Props to the people who make these it would take a lot of research to be able to make an accurate one.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Lol don't assume things based off a video that was supposed to be silly. Tetra is mad good, he keeps up with Anther and Emukiller. And the one who was doing the Falcon kick was Bidoof, and he's just as good as tetra.

I can guarantee that everyone in that video would probably wreck you.

If Tetra is mad good, then what would you call Professor Pro? Or ESAM? Or Pink Fresh?
Emukiller is not good when you think about it. Mewtwo is a broken character. His fundamentals are not there. NinjaLink 3-0d him in tourney right after SKTAR. Zero eliminated him in Zenith. Junebug too.

Also the argument is whether not these guys would beat me (you don't know jack about me or how well I'd fare with top players), its whether Kirby has a positive MU vs Fox and Marth. IDK why I'm arguing this, Kirby is considered mid tier in PM, Fox number 1 and Marth high. Chu Dat beating down VGBC Redd, a considerably weaker player with less overall experience, probably zero Kirby MU experience, and significantly less smarts doesn't mean that Kirby suddenly beats Fox and Marth in general. It just means that Chu is extremely good. Then again, Chu would be good with anyone he picked up. He has over a decade of experience and extremely solid fundamentals.

Thats like saying I went Mewtwo vs Chu and he beat me, and all of a sudden that means Kirby beats Mewtwo. I'm very likely to be not as clever as Chu, and he has triple the amount of experience that I have, in years.

@ Arc Tangent Melee and PM Fox are nearly the same! Shine has no invincibility. Thats virtually his main game changer. And even then, Fox is played the same way. Nair shine lasers up smash.

 

[Arc Tangent]

@ victinivcreate1 No, PM Fox's fire was shortened.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ victinivcreate1 No, PM Fox's fire was shortened.

So a slightly gimped (and still not even that free) recovery, and invincibility off shine is gone. He can still laser camp, waveshine, pressure shields nearly freely, jab up smash is still a near free set up, etc. Only things I'm unsure of is whether he can still invisible shine, and whether weak dash attack leads to up smash still.

Virtually identical. People still complain about the character.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Lol you guys necroed this thread just to have yet another Fox discussion?

Also, there is a community matchup chart maintained by acaferra here.