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Project M Social Thread Gold

CORY

wut
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I think it's best to just let people do what they want, and let the chips fall where they may.
really, though, this.

i think all the other factions that are going to pop up (play only 3.6! play 3.61 leaked build! let's keep up with our own modding! etc...) will be what actually breaks down pm and kills the scene.

but there's no way to stop it, either. it's going to happen. maybe things will work out really well and the community will coalesce around a primary build and everything will work out well. but i doubt it, tbh. it's just not in the odds for something like that to occur, given how strong a modding scene there was for vbrawl leading into pm.

people just like to mod stuff. people get salty about characters changing (whether those changes be for better or for worse) and will want to keep playing old builds (even if they're busted to hell and back). with a culture like that already present in the community, even if you ignore that the more competitive minded will stick to one or two well made builds, you lose a lot more of the casuals and not great "pot fodder" players that actually are what keep the scene alive.

so, yeah, everyone go out and do what you want to do. i'll be sticking to just 3.6, since i'm sure that's what dfw's doing. i'm actually adding to the divisiveness by doing so, most likely, but that's all you can do. we'll see what happens. until the end (either of divisiveness or the scene) i'll still be playing, though.
 

Lukie_Pookie

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but there's no way to stop it, either. it's going to happen. maybe things will work out really well and the community will coalesce around a primary build and everything will work out well. but i doubt it, tbh. it's just not in the odds for something like that to occur, given how strong a modding scene there was for vbrawl leading into pm.
I think this is the important take-away here. The situation with multiple PM forks is inevitable. In fact, multiple PM fork already existed before the team disbanded, but they weren't a relevant competition to the main branch. We just have to see where this goes in regards to what TOs and player favor.
 
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.alizarin

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this is more in the hands of the TOs tbh

if the TOs just don't adopt the diseased abominations that will inevitably pushed and stick to 3.6 instead, it should be fine. people might flock to it at first, but the people that attend tournaments will have to play the standard. the moment tournaments and whatnot get mixed up with the stupid builds is when we'll have a problem

the divide will happen either way, but if the TOs stand up to the nonsense, it'll at least be minimized

EDIT

I think this is the important take-away here. The situation with multiple PM forks is inevitable. In fact, multiple PM fork already existed before the team disbanded, but they weren't a relevant competition to the main branch.
this is not even remotely the same thing. pmdt was a more "official" source than the mountains of forks that popped up. it is very clear when a fork is a fork and not the official build and people will naturally move toward the official one as the standard for play.

with the pmdt disbanded, this standard can't exist with the same amount of authority. people will pop up and say that their joke of a build will be better or should be the standard and whatnot and you can't argue the stupid out of those people
 
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Lukie_Pookie

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with the pmdt disbanded, this standard can't exist with the same amount of authority. people will pop up and say that their joke of a build will be better or should be the standard and whatnot and you can't argue the stupid out of those people
Don't worry about that. Nobody cares if a fork developer claims to be some sort of new standard version. PM was the standard because it was good. Only way new forks can cause in fissure in the community is if they actually have some sort of merit.
 

CORY

wut
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this is not even remotely the same thing. pmdt was a more "official" source than the mountains of forks that popped up. it is very clear when a fork is a fork and not the official build and people will naturally move toward the official one as the standard for play.

with the pmdt disbanded, this standard can't exist with the same amount of authority. people will pop up and say that their joke of a build will be better or should be the standard and whatnot and you can't argue the stupid out of those people
this is pretty succinct, imo. there were all kinds of goofy (and maybe not so goofy) things out there that people would play, but if you went to a tourney, it was pretty much going to be the current pm build. there was a central body that lent credence to it and all of their source control that people whined about is what kept things strong, because there was only one real build and it could be traced back to their page and development.

it didn't matter that someone really really ****ing liked sword ganon and would only play that, because if you went to a tourney of any merit, you played base ganon. you really liked 3.02 diddy because you don't understand what balance and good design is? well, you can play it, but with your friends. anything approaching official, you played the latest build.

now, you can have any number of "offiicial" builds that are official entirely on their own declaration. even other pmdt (i don't know their name, sorry. no disrespect, i'm just too lazy to go check what it is) don't have the same central authority because the build of pm they're starting with will be the same as other people. there might be some other "shadow other pmdt" working on something in secret on their own, waiting to drop the hottest track of 2015.

and since the community is going to be able to make more pull with regards to stuff, to's do have a say, but if your community is full of silly people who like 3.02 diddy, 2.whatever sonic and ike, and sword ganon and refuse to attend because you won't play their "new official build!" you don't have any authority to really try and stem it. and then they can start just doing their own "community build!" tourneys, because it's more fun.

i mean, yeah, that's starting to hit hyperbole there, but that's the thing i'm afraid of. except it'll be balance and bug fix builds with good intentions. "man, ddd sucks. here's my brand new ddd build!" but it's actually busted wide open. "well, that new pmdt aren't really in charge. this is a much better build! so i'm gonna use it!" and then some to thinks it's a good build and now there's a rift in the overall community.

once again, more hyperbole starting up, but it only takes a few occurrences to have the issue start to be a real problem.

this isn't even getting into the legal murkiness that might or might not occur because we don't know everything that's going on in the background.

if other pmdt can pull together a well made, tightly controlled build that a lot of people adapt as the community standard, more power to them. i'll stick to what my local scene plays, because i don't travel anyway. i'm just a little sad because, at this point, it's much more likely for this to be the end than a new beginning.
 

PlateProp

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A good way to maybe solve this is to have sime sort of dev week. Talk to your tos about one week of the montg playing dev/3.61
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Hey, fun fact I haven't seen anyone consider.

Yea its apparent that SSBEvo doesn't give a **** about the consequences their actions could have on the original PMDT and likely haven't thought about what consequences they themselves may have to face.

But if they do provoke actual legal action from Nintendo (the very thing that PMDT was trying to avoid in the first place), they aren't just ****ing themselves and the old dev team. They are ****ing the whole community.

Look at what happened when merely VGBC stopped streaming PM. The HINT of possible legal action behind the scenes MAJORLY crippled the PM tournament scene in North America. Everyone became afraid to stream PM, everyone became afraid of hosting PM.

Now what kind of effect do you think explicit legal action on Nintendo's part would have?
It would make Nintendo fans and a large portion of tge gaming community turn on Nintendo really hard, and a lot of gamers aren't exactly happy with NoA atm.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
this is pretty succinct, imo. there were all kinds of goofy (and maybe not so goofy) things out there that people would play, but if you went to a tourney, it was pretty much going to be the current pm build. there was a central body that lent credence to it and all of their source control that people whined about is what kept things strong, because there was only one real build and it could be traced back to their page and development.

it didn't matter that someone really really ****ing liked sword ganon and would only play that, because if you went to a tourney of any merit, you played base ganon. you really liked 3.02 diddy because you don't understand what balance and good design is? well, you can play it, but with your friends. anything approaching official, you played the latest build.

now, you can have any number of "offiicial" builds that are official entirely on their own declaration. even other pmdt (i don't know their name, sorry. no disrespect, i'm just too lazy to go check what it is) don't have the same central authority because the build of pm they're starting with will be the same as other people. there might be some other "shadow other pmdt" working on something in secret on their own, waiting to drop the hottest track of 2015.

and since the community is going to be able to make more pull with regards to stuff, to's do have a say, but if your community is full of silly people who like 3.02 diddy, 2.whatever sonic and ike, and sword ganon and refuse to attend because you won't play their "new official build!" you don't have any authority to really try and stem it. and then they can start just doing their own "community build!" tourneys, because it's more fun.

i mean, yeah, that's starting to hit hyperbole there, but that's the thing i'm afraid of. except it'll be balance and bug fix builds with good intentions. "man, ddd sucks. here's my brand new ddd build!" but it's actually busted wide open. "well, that new pmdt aren't really in charge. this is a much better build! so i'm gonna use it!" and then some to thinks it's a good build and now there's a rift in the overall community.

once again, more hyperbole starting up, but it only takes a few occurrences to have the issue start to be a real problem.

this isn't even getting into the legal murkiness that might or might not occur because we don't know everything that's going on in the background.

if other pmdt can pull together a well made, tightly controlled build that a lot of people adapt as the community standard, more power to them. i'll stick to what my local scene plays, because i don't travel anyway. i'm just a little sad because, at this point, it's much more likely for this to be the end than a new beginning.
This is why the shinPMDT being a thing is a good thing. It kinda unifies the chaos under one commonly, or mostly accepted banner and leader. You have one group organize and take the lead straight up, and if they can deliver, it'll be a good thing.

Otherwise, expect the community to fracture.

Standing against the idea of a new PMDT taking up tge mantle is pretty much wishing for anarchy and welcoming the eventual demise of the community. The only way for what we have to survive is by having a recognized leader heading everything.

See, every political movement ever.


EDIT: sorry, double post.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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Sure, we can't stop people from making their own builds and stuff.

...but the circumstances should be a red flag/disclaimer to those involved that do. It's like stringing the Sword of Damocles over the heads of a lot of people that don't ****ing deserve it.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Leafeon

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Standing against the idea of a new PMDT taking up tge mantle is pretty much wishing for anarchy and welcoming the eventual demise of the community. The only way for what we have to survive is by having a recognized leader heading everything.
You can have leaders without a new development team

I think the opposite will happen-- forcing further development will be what screws the game over long-term, because the original team stopped for a reason, not because they wanted to.
 

Frost | Odds

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You know..except for the part where they are putting themselves and others at major risk out of pure selfishness.

I'll just quote strong bads post on the front page:

"Even with our own development halted any continuation of the project by new developers could jeopardize that good standing not only for ourselves, but for them as well, and we don’t want that for either party."
.

If this is the way the community is going to go, I'm probably going to just switch back to Melee.
 
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D

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No it wouldnt


Sure, we can't stop people from making their own builds and stuff.

...but the circumstances should be a red flag/disclaimer to those involved. It's like stringing the Sword of Damocles over the heads of a lot of people that don't ****ing deserve it.

Smooth Criminal
Yeah, and I just came across this:

-no-

Likewise, Nintendo has already tried to file a lawsuit for modifying code in the past against Game Genie, and lost:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

The official ruling is as follows:

manufacturer of product that allowed users to alter codes transmitted between video gaming console and game cartridge did not infringe console manufacturer’s exclusive right, under federal copyright law, to create derivative works
Under which PMDT is protected, as are all other game mods. So either the PMDT got cold feet over nothing, or they're trying to pass off this story as true when it's in fact not (and people are buying it). Plus, if Nintendo DID try yo file a lawsuit, especially one to overrule a previous ruling, and one that goes agaibst ALL CURRENT TRENDS in the industry, they're bound to lose favor when their overall sales and relevance are dimming.
 
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Vashimus

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Now that the PMDT disbanded and the game is set in stone, does this mean we should appoint an official Project M Back Room? Some kind of committee of respected players / ex-PMDT that can decide rulesets and stage-lists for major tournaments? Any builds other than 3.6 will just be rendered void.
 

Kipcom

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Strong Badam Strong Badam I'm sorry that you and the rest of the PMDT are having to put up with this s***.

So many people don't even seem to understand the magnitude of the situation, like come on people.
 

xquqx

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Under which PMDT is protected, as are all other game mods. So either the PMDT got cold feet over nothing, or they're trying to pass off this story as true when it's in fact not (and people are buying it). Plus, if Nintendo DID try yo file a lawsuit, especially one to overrule a previous ruling, and one that goes agaibst ALL CURRENT TRENDS in the industry, they're bound to lose favor when their overall sales and relevance are dimming.

Lawsuits are really expensive dude. Even if the PMDT was 100% guaranteed to win, which I don't think is the case at all, I really doubt that any of them are in the position financially to take nintendo to court.
 

ikon

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what the hell is wrong with you people just leave it alone and play the game

let the TOs be smart by themselves and reject the horrible builds

this is a serious legal problem jesus christ
 

Kurri ★

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Yeah, and I just came across this:

-no-

Likewise, Nintendo has already tried to file a lawsuit for modifying code in the past against Game Genie, and lost:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

The official ruling is as follows:



Under which PMDT is protected, as are all other game mods. So either the PMDT got cold feet over nothing, or they're trying to pass off this story as true when it's in fact not (and people are buying it). Plus, if Nintendo DID try yo file a lawsuit, especially one to overrule a previous ruling, and one that goes agaibst ALL CURRENT TRENDS in the industry, they're bound to lose favor when their overall sales and relevance are dimming.
I appreciate that you're trying to help, but I'm more than certain there's stuff you just don't understand.

Also, most fans would not turn on Nintendo.
 
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wiztick

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Strong Badam Strong Badam I'm sorry that you and the rest of the PMDT are having to put up with this s***.

So many people don't even seem to understand the magnitude of the situation, like come on people.
because pmdt should of expected something like this to happen in the first place? if u see your underground gaming mods starting to see esports streaming and majors, would it not be reasonable to take the time to look into seeing all of the possiblities of even more risk?
 

Hylian

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Under which PMDT is protected, as are all other game mods. So either the PMDT got cold feet over nothing, or they're trying to pass off this story as true when it's in fact not (and people are buying it). Plus, if Nintendo DID try yo file a lawsuit, especially one to overrule a previous ruling, and one that goes agaibst ALL CURRENT TRENDS in the industry, they're bound to lose favor when their overall sales and relevance are dimming.
Oh ManlySpirit, I'm so glad we have your expert advice on law. Please tell me what schools you studied law under so we can contact you more often for advice? Please, let us share the information that you don't currently have so that you can better give us your master qualified no scope opinion on copyright law, which you know so much about and have spent years in the mountains studying just for this moment. We are going to put all our faith in you instead of our lawyers because we trust you know law better than them.

Thanks!
 

Frost | Odds

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but Melee Bowser is awful :/...
I had kind of a personal breakthrough with my Puff lately actually. Never used to have the balls to rest but now I'm getting them all over the damn place. Got 3 mangorests, 1 raw shieldpoke rest, and 2 tech chase rests in one set against a local Peach hero a couple weeks ago
 
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Smooth Criminal

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Oh ManlySpirit, I'm so glad we have your expert advice on law. Please tell me what schools you studied law under so we can contact you more often for advice? Please, let us share the information that you don't currently have so that you can better give us your master qualified no scope opinion on copyright law, which you know so much about and have spent years in the mountains studying just for this moment. We are going to put all our faith in you instead of our lawyers because we trust you know law better than them.

Thanks!
In other words, Manly, you're not a lawyer. Or even remotely versed in law.

Smooth Criminal
 
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AceGamer

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I had kind of a personal breakthrough with my Puff lately actually. Never used to have the balls to rest but now I'm getting them all over the damn place. Got 3 mangorests, 1 raw shieldpoke rest, and 2 tech chase rests in one set against a local Peach hero a couple weeks ago
ugh Puff :ohwell:, anyways congratz! :]
 

wiztick

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other than crazy PM stuff does anyone see one punch man? that latest episode with mumen rider tho
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Oh ManlySpirit, I'm so glad we have your expert advice on law. Please tell me what schools you studied law under so we can contact you more often for advice? Please, let us share the information that you don't currently have so that you can better give us your master qualified no scope opinion on copyright law, which you know so much about and have spent years in the mountains studying just for this moment. We are going to put all our faith in you instead of our lawyers because we trust you know law better than them.

Thanks!
Well, if you were so confident perhaps you wouldn't have had StrongBad edit my post to remove the image.

Just saying.

No C&D means there's no gag order, it means you did this by choice. Thus, I ask, why the lack of transparency on the matter?

If it really was an issue of cold feet, there would have been no harm in telling people what was up, and people would have understood. Instead, you decided to keep things a secret and are now paying the price tenfold.

It's one thing to decide to step down, and that's respectable, but the matter in which you handled this is what caused this whole mess, and the attitude which you're taking toward future mods is not only arrogant, and misguided (since people have been modding your mods for a long time), but isn't putting you, or the community in a favorable light on top of all the secrecy.

I just call it like it is man, like it or not. I got what I wanted, and from this point out, don't much care for what goes on. As I said, let the pieces fall where they may, and just roll with the punches. But to sit back in arrogance and play victim is just making everyone look like assholes.
 

ikon

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Well, if you were so confident perhaps you wouldn't have had StrongBad edit my post to remove the image.

Just saying.

No C&D means there's no gag order, it means you did this by choice. Thus, I ask, why the lack of transparency on the matter?

If it really was an issue of cold feet, there would have been no harm in telling people what was up, and people would have understood. Instead, you decided to keep things a secret and are now paying the price tenfold.

It's one thing to decide to step down, and that's respectable, but the matter in which you handled this is what caused this whole mess, and the attitude which you're taking toward future mods is not only arrogant, and misguided (since people have been modding your mods for a long time), but isn't putting you, or the community in a favorable light on top of all the secrecy.

I just call it like it is man, like it or not. I got what I wanted, and from this point out, don't much care for what goes on. As I said, let the pieces fall where they may, and just roll with the punches. But to sit back in arrogance and play victim is just making everyone look like ********.
just leave
 

Kurri ★

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other than crazy PM stuff does anyone see one punch man? that latest episode with mumen rider tho
I'm two episodes behind but I hear it really hits the feels.

Well, if you were so confident perhaps you wouldn't have had StrongBad edit my post to remove the image.

Just saying.

No C&D means there's no gag order, it means you did this by choice. Thus, I ask, why the lack of transparency on the matter?

If it really was an issue of cold feet, there would have been no harm in telling people what was up, and people would have understood. Instead, you decided to keep things a secret and are now paying the price tenfold.

It's one thing to decide to step down, and that's respectable, but the matter in which you handled this is what caused this whole mess, and the attitude which you're taking toward future mods is not only arrogant, and misguided (since people have been modding your mods for a long time), but isn't putting you, or the community in a favorable light on top of all the secrecy.

I just call it like it is man, like it or not. I got what I wanted, and from this point out, don't much care for what goes on. As I said, let the pieces fall where they may, and just roll with the punches. But to sit back in arrogance and play victim is just making everyone look like ********.
You really don't know when to stop do you? Why should we listen to some rando who obviously has no understanding of what's going on.
 

Hylian

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Well, if you were so confident perhaps you wouldn't have had StrongBad edit my post to remove the image.

Just saying.

No C&D means there's no gag order, it means you did this by choice. Thus, I ask, why the lack of transparency on the matter?

If it really was an issue of cold feet, there would have been no harm in telling people what was up, and people would have understood. Instead, you decided to keep things a secret and are now paying the price tenfold.

It's one thing to decide to step down, and that's respectable, but the matter in which you handled this is what caused this whole mess, and the attitude which you're taking toward future mods is not only arrogant, and misguided (since people have been modding your mods for a long time), but isn't putting you, or the community in a favorable light on top of all the secrecy.

I just call it like it is man, like it or not. I got what I wanted, and from this point out, don't much care for what goes on. As I said, let the pieces fall where they may, and just roll with the punches. But to sit back in arrogance and play victim is just making everyone look like ********.
You're a naive, selfish, and entitled person who is making assumptions based off limited knowledge. I hope you are never put into a position where you have to make decisions for others.

We are not entitled to tell you, or anyone, ANYTHING. We worked for free for six years and spent thousands of hours making something so people could have fun playing it. You really think we want to stay silent and close everything without warning? Use your brain please.
 

Soft Serve

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ayyyyy tag me when all the dumb people leave the thread and we go back to talking about not-pm, I'm just going to go play 3.6
 

Helsong

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Why is anyone listening to those that are haggling the PMDT or trying to play armchair lawyers? The DT made their decision. Whether it was justified or not is moot. Trust the dev team's decision and just play the game you have in your hands. Have fun instead of ********, because that's the point of this game in the first place.
 
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