Project M and Items

[the_suicide_fox]

Hello all, I haven't been here in a while though over the past month I have been poking around on the new Smashboards, mostly thanks to Project M. It looks fantastic and it how Brawl should have been made by Nintendo to begin with (though I haven't had the opportunity to actually play it ).

Anyway, I know that items have always been banned on tournament settings, but I was wondering has anyone considered using Project M as a way to make items actually viable for tournaments? I mean, the two main arguments against items are 1) they spawn randomly and 2) they are unbalanced/too powerful. Well, Project M could potentially solve both of those issues. I'm not sure how much has been discussed regarding items in Project M but I think it wouldn't hurt to brainstorm a bit and see where it goes.

I'm not trying to start flame wars, I'm really just curious about how this could be done. As an example most shooting games have weapons that spawn on the map on timers. A similar concept could be applied to Smash in that specific items only appear in specific ways at specific times during a game. It could add a whole new level to Smash that we haven't seen before.

Discuss!

 

[HyperrCrow]

Well I'm sure smash already has the spawn timer down with the different settings (None, Low, Medium, etc.).
I'm sure the only thing hackers have control over with items at this point are where the items spawn, using BrawlBox.

Although the issue remains, items add a unfair element whether there's timers to control their spawns and spawn location. For example, if your suggestion was possible, let's say they had a beam sword spawn in the middle of FD when the timer reaches 7:00. From the get go the match would be concentrated around getting that item first, sure you could say "that would just make players fight harder for stage control!", but once the beam sword spawns and a character like Ganon were to get a hold of it, it could change the tide in a second. Not only would the Ganondorf have a close quarters advantage, but he'd now possess range (incredible range at that due to the beam sword depending on the smashes strength). So essentially the Ganon player would be safe on both fronts.

Items just really have no place competitively, although for casual play that suggestion would be amazing.

 

[Blondie.]

I agree that I'd rather keep things the way they are for tournament.

It would be awesome if there were some sort of mode though where items spawned in particular places at particular times. It would definitely make things more interesting.

P:M is freaking fun btw with items on. It is so chaotic. Combining Brawl's ridiculous items with melee's physics equals fun times to be had!

 

[Strong Badam]

A diverse and bolstering metagame has already developed based around items being banned in PM. Sorry to say, but its far too late for an item-legal tournament game this time around. Give it a shot with Smash 4.

 

[Mithost]

If you would like, you can get into Item modding and placement in brawlbox, and create your own build of Project M with a fair item system. Playtest it with friends and have a post on here/brawlvault, and maybe others will be willing to help you. I don't believe the goal for the public release is for items to be legal, but when they are turned off anyways, you have full reign in changing them.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Eternal Yoshi has, in the past, expressed interest in refining items further along in development. I'd love to see balanced, competitive Items-On side-tourneys in the future, alongside Doubles and Turbo.

 

[the_suicide_fox]

I agree that I'd rather keep things the way they are for tournament.

It would be awesome if there were some sort of mode though where items spawned in particular places at particular times. It would definitely make things more interesting.

P:M is freaking fun btw with items on. It is so chaotic. Combining Brawl's ridiculous items with melee's physics equals fun times to be had!

Yea like I said I haven't played PM yet, so I didn't know if items were still available.

I understand items have more potential to hurt competitive play, however I think it would be important to at least attempt to balance it to some degree. The beam sword example HyperrCrow mentions would be an issue, however you forget that it's possible to modify the items themselves and not just how they spawn. So the beam sword could have its duration reduced or damage reduced or something so that when a character like Ganondorf picks it up it grants him range at the cost of damage (because he is a high damage character). So while yes, items as they are in Brawl are unbalanced if they were modified they could be balanced.

 

[Deleted member]

holy ****, it's suicide fox.

blast from the past.

 

[ELI-mination]

If I remember correctly, Eternal Yoshi was working on balancing items in P:M, although I can't remember anybody else really helping him with it. Either way, I'm open to stuff like this. Although so far I haven't been impressed by item play in general.

Honestly though, when I first saw "final smashes" in brawl, I was hyped as ****. Unfortunately they turned out to be blehhhhhhh. It would be awesome though if final smashes were legit, but I don't see it happening just based on how much work it would probably take to even make that happen.

*writes angry letter to nintendo*

 

[Yung Mei]

items are ok

 

[Phaiyte]

The new KI game looks like such a massive joke lol. But oh well, didn't expect anything different.

 

[the_suicide_fox]

holy ****, it's suicide fox.

blast from the past.

Sup dude! Yea I disappeared after Brawl came out. Just lost interest. Moved on to other games, namely Gears of War. Project M is calling to me though. Smash 4 not so much, maybe after I see the final product.

If I remember correctly, Eternal Yoshi was working on balancing items in P:M, although I can't remember anybody else really helping him with it. Either way, I'm open to stuff like this. Although so far I haven't been impressed by item play in general.

Honestly though, when I first saw "final smashes" in brawl, I was hyped as ****. Unfortunately they turned out to be blehhhhhhh. It would be awesome though if final smashes were legit, but I don't see it happening just based on how much work it would probably take to even make that happen.

*writes angry letter to nintendo*

Yea I was thinking it would be cool if FS's could be actually implemented into the game differently, something like a meter build or something so players would have to earn it. I'm more of a fan of items OFF too but I think that if having a few in the game can make it better than why not?

The new KI game looks like such a massive joke lol. But oh well, didn't expect anything different.

Ok....? And I think the new KI looks awesome. They put a lot of thought into balancing the game and it looks fun as hell. IDK why you think it's a joke, they even give you frame data and dojo mode that teaches you how the metagame works.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

It's possible (it's been for a while) to control item spawn location, but not spawn time, though I'd love too see PM experiment with the former with stage hacking.

 

[Phaiyte]

Ok....? And I think the new KI looks awesome. They put a lot of thought into balancing the game and it looks fun as hell. IDK why you think it's a joke, they even give you frame data and dojo mode that teaches you how the metagame works.

The entire competitive scene is just going to become combo breakers dealing the most damage while the opponent is still alive. Like, that's literally it. Get hit on purpose by an attack that doesn't launch and you just counter that 5P with sweet damage. It isn't going to have any real depth at all lol

Also my bad either way. For some reason the youtube video played some clip of Thunder "combo" play instead of the item demonstration.

 

[Paradoxium]

not sure if items could ever be used competitively, but I will say editing some of the ******** items in favor of better ones would be a nice touch

 

[the_suicide_fox]

The entire competitive scene is just going to become combo breakers dealing the most damage while the opponent is still alive. Like, that's literally it. Get hit on purpose by an attack that doesn't launch and you just counter that 5P with sweet damage. It isn't going to have any real depth at all lol

Also my bad either way. For some reason the youtube video played some clip of Thunder "combo" play instead of the item demonstration.

Well you know about counter breakers right? So if you come across a player that combo breaks a lot then you throw out a counter breaker and lock them out to get max damage. There are also manual combos that are harder to do but also harder (or impossible) to combo break. At the very least it won't end up like MvC where you land one hit and combo a guy to death. Plus DH made combo breakers harder to do in the most recent build, by increasing the speed of auto doubles and tightening the frame requirements for breakers. I think between all that combo breakers won't be so easily abused.

not sure if items could ever be used competitively, but I will say editing some of the ******** items in favor of better ones would be a nice touch

Or even making new ones!

 

[Deleted member]

The main problem with items on a strategic level is that they interfere with the neutral game in a way that makes play feel sporadic even if it isn't. Having play conditions that change constantly is probably a healthy move for the game overall, but the current experience most players have so far is that items are predominantly a hindrance that impedes one from being able to demonstrate his or her ability in a vacuum.

Were items done properly, it would probably be like having more stages or having an element of randomness, where yes they are testable skills that the players could come to appreciate in time. However, I think most players see an increase in variance and decide that those elements are better off eliminated so as to not influence the tournament results.

You can make a compelling argument for either side, but at the end of the day it's going to be player preference that decides whether we have more items, stages, randomness, etc. Even Luigi's misfire was "tamed" so to speak, so it's pretty obvious that we currently err on the side of more predictable play.

 

[the_suicide_fox]

The main problem with items on a strategic level is that they interfere with the neutral game in a way that makes play feel sporadic even if it isn't. Having play conditions that change constantly is probably a healthy move for the game overall, but the current experience most players have so far is that items are predominantly a hindrance that impedes one from being able to demonstrate his or her ability in a vacuum.

Were items done properly, it would probably be like having more stages or having an element of randomness, where yes they are testable skills that the players could come to appreciate in time. However, I think most players see an increase in variance and decide that those elements are better off eliminated so as to not influence the tournament results.

You can make a compelling argument for either side, but at the end of the day it's going to be player preference that decides whether we have more items, stages, randomness, etc. Even Luigi's misfire was "tamed" so to speak, so it's pretty obvious that we currently err on the side of more predictable play.

It's funny you mention items being like stages, because if we assume that PM could make balanced items then you could theoretically allow each player to pick 1 to 2 items that would appear on the map. It could be something strategic in the sense that Jigs could use X item to create a such n such strategy, but if Falco were to use that item maybe it doesn't help him as much. And then maybe there is another item that provides a better strat to Jigs, but might be one that Falco can use as well so choosing that item would be a sort of trade off.

I know items will never be tournament standard, by now the competitive style is pretty well defined, but maybe if it was done right things could change. It might be a better option too considering that there are only a handful of competitive stages to play on, so rather than trying to create a whole bunch of what is essentially the same stage (by the looks of it most PM stages are a modified BF or PS2) you could have the few stages available but a more dynamic approach to how each plays through item use. Items could be used as a way to counter stages that heavily favor certain types of characters. So if you were to counterpick me I could throw on this item and even it out some, but of course I would need to obtain said item to do that.

 

[greenblob]

I think something cool we could try out is having characters spawn holding an item, which you select at the character select screen along with your character.