Priority

[nicktron3000]

So I've been thinking, has anyone compiled and listed all the attacks in the game and listed them in order of priority. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, all it would take is a ridiculous amount of time, basic process of elimination, and a very, very patient person. I'm just curious.

 

[ShoeThief]

It would, especially since the list would be about 200 moves total, many of which change in priority or disjointed-ness at times.

 

[Fireblaster]

It would be pointless. Things like kirby's Utilt would beat every other air attack if it's from kirby's back, but it would lose to almost every air attack if kirby is attacked from the front. Not to mention spacing and the timing of moves (They won't always start at the same time). Way too many factors.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

Pretty much impossible to make You just have to gain an intuitive understanding of comparative priority through experience.

Locke > Descartes I guess.

 

[Daedatheus]

Locke > Descartes I guess.

LOL nice comparison.

Anyway, to the OP, such a list would be pointless. Is anyone really going to memorize all those? Everyone who plays the game long enough for such EXACT detail to matter already has a generally intuitive understanding of the priorities in different matchups just from playing a lot. That's a much more sensible way to figure it out.

Also Kirby's utilt > everything that isn't an energy projectile or bombs.

 

[Winston]

I think you are misunderstanding priority.

Priority only really applies when two ground moves (or some B moves) meet - this is when you get the clanking animation, and either the moves will tie or one will go through the other. I guess you could make a list for the ground moves. However, that doesn't really seem that useful.

For aerial vs aerial or aerial vs ground, it's completely about how disjointed the hitbox of the move is from the character's body. In other words, it's about range. So it does depend on which direction the moves are hitting from as well as timing.

I mean I guess you could make a list of moves that always beat other moves, but I think that would just be the obvious cases (i.e. Kirby's utilt from the back).

 

[Superstar]

I think YOU are misunderstanding priority.

It's just a general term for the mix of range and disjointed hitboxes. Something that's disjointed but less range may have priority over something not disjointed. Link's aerials have high priority. Applies to aerials as well as ground.

It's not quantifiable, just a general term for certain clashes. So it's not listable. You can only say high priority, or low priority.

When moves "clank", they have equal priority.

 

[NixxxoN]

some priorities in the game are really f*cked up.

Kirby and Pika's utilt > Links dair.
Ness utilt > DK's dair (LOL ness little hands can handle a high gorilla going down!)
Falcon's weak ftilt > Fox up+b
...

 

[Fireblaster]

some priorities in the game are really f*cked up.

Kirby and Pika's utilt > Links dair.
Ness utilt > DK's dair (LOL ness little hands can handle a high gorilla going down!)
Falcon's weak ftilt > Fox up+b
...

That's nothing, try doing falcon's dair on a dtilting kirby. It will make you question your beliefs.

 

[Winston]

I think YOU are misunderstanding priority.

It's just a general term for the mix of range and disjointed hitboxes. Something that's disjointed but less range may have priority over something not disjointed. Link's aerials have high priority. Applies to aerials as well as ground.

It's not quantifiable, just a general term for certain clashes. So it's not listable. You can only say high priority, or low priority.

When moves "clank", they have equal priority.

How am I misunderstanding priority? Aren't we agreeing? I said it was about the range of the disjointed hitbox, i.e. the separation of the hitbox from the character's hurtbox.

What am I misunderstanding?

 

[Superstar]

Priority only really applies when two ground moves (or some B moves) meet

And you mentioned clanking animation, but then you went on to say that either hit each other or one go through the other.

You seemed all over the place in your post actually, later on you mentioned aerials, and said it's completely about, implying it wasn't priority.

 

[NixxxoN]

That's nothing, try doing falcon's dair on a dtilting kirby. It will make you question your beliefs.

lol i never thought of it... omg.

 

[MattNF]

That's nothing, try doing falcon's dair on a dtilting kirby. It will make you question your beliefs.

What the ***.

 

[Winston]

And you mentioned clanking animation, but then you went on to say that either hit each other or one go through the other.

You seemed all over the place in your post actually, later on you mentioned aerials, and said it's completely about, implying it wasn't priority.

Okay perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but I'm pretty sure we weren't disagreeing.

The first half of my post was addressing priority as the concept he described - a numerical value that completely determines what happens when two hitboxes meet.

My claim is that this only makes sense for ground moves and some B moves, as these are the only moves that can produce the clank animation. Aerials can't clank.

The second half of my post was talking about what we usually think about when we say priority (i.e. an aerial vs kirby's utilt). What determines what happens there is wholly the range of the disjoint, and not some numerical value, like it would be in the case of an fsmash hitting a jab and going through it despite the clank animation.

 

[nicktron3000]

So now I'm confused. I was under the impression that all attacks have hitboxes (in most cases multiple), and that the strength and priority of the attack was a set numerical value inside those boxes.

The clanking occurs when two attack hitboxes meet and they have near identical values in priority. If one attack has a high enough priority value over another, the attack will cancel out the other attack and damage the attacker whose attack had less priority. As you said before, this only applies when at least one of the atttackers is on the ground.

My opinion also agrees with the SmashWiki, for the most part. I've also never typed the word attack so many times, lol

 

[Winston]

So now I'm confused. I was under the impression that all attacks have hitboxes (in most cases multiple), and that the strength and priority of the attack was a set numerical value inside those boxes.

The clanking occurs when two attack hitboxes meet and they have near identical values in priority. If one attack has a high enough priority value over another, the attack will cancel out the other attack and damage the attacker whose attack had less priority. As you said before, this only applies when at least one of the atttackers is on the ground.

My opinion also agrees with the SmashWiki, for the most part. I've also never typed the word attack so many times, lol

See the thing is that attacks ONLY are capable of clanking when BOTH attackers are using ground moves (or some B moves). Aerials don't fit into your model of how priority works.

Kirby's utilt or Falcon's upsmash "outprioritize" aerials by having immense disjointed hitboxes.

 

[Superstar]

That and you can't straight out compare.

Mario's uair has more horizontal priority than Fox's uair. In some "matchups", Mario's uair does best, in others, Fox's wins, just due to horizontal alone.

Mario and Fox's uair fall flat to Kirby's utilt [lol], even Samus's utilt because you can't compare a uair with a utilt. Mario and Fox's uairs lose to Kirby's dair, MAYBE Mario has a shot, depending on the horizontal disjoint of Kirby's dair.

And yeah Gustav, misunderstanding then.

 

[marthmaster04]

You wanna understand priority? Ness's uptilt

/thread

 

[NixxxoN]

You wanna understand priority? Ness's uptilt

/thread

kirby and pika's uptilt have even more priority

 

[Nybb]

So now I'm confused. I was under the impression that all attacks have hitboxes (in most cases multiple), and that the strength and priority of the attack was a set numerical value inside those boxes.

This is how I understand it.

Every attack causes a hitbox to appear (except maybe DK's >100% ledge get-up attack) for some amount of time.

Every character has a hurtbox, which is the area where if a hitbox touches, they will be "hit." It's generally the character's body.

When an attack is "disjointed" or has "high priority," the hitbox of the attack extends farther than the character's hurtbox. Think of Link's sword-based attacks; they are disjointed because the hitbox of the sword extends outwords, but his hurtbox is still just his body. The opposite is when hitboxes do not extend from your hurtbox, such as Pika's f-air.

When two characters try to attack eachother, the game checks the collisions of hit/hurtboxes. If Pika tries to f-air Link while he is f-smashing, Link's f-smash will probably win. This is because Link's sword's hitbox overlaps with Pika's hurtbox before Pika's hitbox has the chance to make it all the way to Link's hurtbox, his body. Therefore the game registers Pika as being hit while Link is fine.

Attacks that are usually thought to be "high-priority" just have unreasonably large hitboxes. Kirby's uptilt's hitbox is so huge and his hurtbox is so small that not many attacks can reach his hurtbox before the attacker's own hurtbox comes into range of the uptilt.

As for clanking, I think what happens is when two ground hitboxes collide, a "clank" occurs. Otherwise, hitboxes ignore eachother. So if two air attacks (or air vs. ground) meet, the hitboxes pass through eachother. This can result in both characters registering as being hit if both hitboxes connect with their targets at the same time.

 

[nicktron3000]

I see. I can definatly understand that. Thanks for the clarification, Nybb.

 

[Superstar]

Yes, it's what Nybb said, he explained it awesome.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

can a hitbox eat a hurtbox's box?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

*accurate, detailed explanation*

Wow, very well said. Though you did forget one thing:

If two Falcon Punches collide, they don't clank. They blow up the Universe.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

As for clanking, I think what happens is when two ground hitboxes collide, a "clank" occurs. Otherwise, hitboxes ignore eachother. So if two air attacks (or air vs. ground) meet, the hitboxes pass through eachother. This can result in both characters registering as being hit if both hitboxes connect with their targets at the same time.

I thought clanking occurred on the collision of two hitboxes of attacks that deal within 10% of each other...or is that a different game? >_>

 

[Nybb]

I thought clanking occurred on the collision of two hitboxes of attacks that deal within 10% of each other...or is that a different game? >_>

I'm almost positive that only ground vs. ground can clank; by clank I mean when the little 'bounce' effect shows up and both characters look confused for a second. When air moves hit eachother, you just both get hit, or one wins. Same with air vs. ground. This is why you can have characters both spike eachother, even though most spikes do around 15% (contrary to the clank-by-damage idea).

Edit: now that I think about it, whether or not ground moves clash could be caused by the damage distance. I'm not quite positive on what causes a clank, only on the fact that it only happens to ground moves. I might check this out later if nobody else does.

 

[marthmaster04]

kirby and pika's uptilt have even more priority

yeah but his hitbox stays out misleadingly long, its a freakin annoyance, and its an almost indefinet set distance until higher damage. I'd nerf Ness's utilt before the other two. ****s gay.

 

[Tambor]

I might check this out later if nobody else does.

If it's damage, check if it's also affected by stale-move negation while you're at it.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

I'm almost positive that only ground vs. ground can clank; by clank I mean when the little 'bounce' effect shows up and both characters look confused for a second. When air moves hit eachother, you just both get hit, or one wins. Same with air vs. ground. This is why you can have characters both spike eachother, even though most spikes do around 15% (contrary to the clank-by-damage idea).

Edit: now that I think about it, whether or not ground moves clash could be caused by the damage distance. I'm not quite positive on what causes a clank, only on the fact that it only happens to ground moves. I might check this out later if nobody else does.

Huh, I never knew that...I'd be really interested to see the results of your research if you decide to do it.

If it's damage, check if it's also affected by stale-move negation while you're at it.

64 HAS move stagnation? I have so much to learn =[

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Neither stale moves nor damage have anything to do with clanking. A falcon punch can be cancelled by many simple ground moves, like kirby's up-tilt, maybe even Kirby's jab, etc. If hitbox hits hitbox, it clanks. The occasions where one beats the other is when one frame, hitboxes don't collide. Next frame, hitbox collides with both hitbox and hurtbox. Attacks like the Falcon punch have huge hitbox changes, meaning it can pass through many attacks and hit the character in one frame, which does not result in a clank. If I'm not mistaken though, a perfectly spaced kirby jab can clank with the falcon punch if in a given frame the falcon punch hitbox overlaps with the jab hitbox, but not the kirby hurtbox. This would not be practical, but can be done.

You can test it to make sure, but I'm 99% sure of this. Or we can just test it out at the next biweekly... if you're going to it (@ Nybb).

 

[Nybb]

64 HAS move stagnation? I have so much to learn =[

It does, but not like Brawl. In 64, only damage is affected. That is, hitting with a move over and over will make it add less percentage each time, but the knockback caused by the move remains unaffected. Melee works in the same way.

Imagine the ridiculousness of up-tilt combos if their knockback decreased

You can test it to make sure, but I'm 99% sure of this. Or we can just test it out at the next biweekly... if you're going to it (@ Nybb).

Yeah, I've tried a bit and it's really hard to do with one person. I should be at the next tourney, so we can check it out if you want.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

jab won't clank with falcon punch wtf

and stale moves exist in this game..

 

[Dajayman]

Lol at the guy saying that Ness's utilt is more broken than Pika's or even Kirby's utilt. Seriously, Kirby's utilt makes me want to punch my face in.

 

[NixxxoN]

yeah but his hitbox stays out misleadingly long, its a freakin annoyance, and its an almost indefinet set distance until higher damage. I'd nerf Ness's utilt before the other two. ****s gay.

just attack ness to his sides... Ness utilt is relatively slow and if you practice you can hit him easily while trying to utilt you

 

[ballin4life]

It does, but not like Brawl. In 64, only damage is affected. That is, hitting with a move over and over will make it add less percentage each time, but the knockback caused by the move remains unaffected. Melee works in the same way.

Imagine the ridiculousness of up-tilt combos if their knockback decreased



Yeah, I've tried a bit and it's really hard to do with one person. I should be at the next tourney, so we can check it out if you want.

Knockback is affected by stale moves. For example, a fresh upsmash from fox will kill falcon if falcon starts out at about 90% (before the move hits). But a stale upsmash needs to be at like 105% or more to kill falcon. Try getting falcon to about 85%, upsmashing (which brings him to about 101%), then upsmash again and it won't kill.

 

[Superstar]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209454

Staleness affects both knockback and damage, but it works differently. One hit FULLY stales the move, and you need a few hits with other moves to regain it.

Hmm, I could finish that post with some stuff. I can't hack the game so I'm limited...meh.

 

[Nybb]

@ Superstar and ballin4life: Wow, I had always thought knockback decay was exclusive to Brawl. Thanks for the link, the rest of that info was really interesting too.

 

[marthmaster04]

just attack ness to his sides... Ness utilt is relatively slow and if you practice you can hit him easily while trying to utilt you

I'm well aware of the ways around it, you're talking around what i said. nvm...