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practice thread

shadrach kabango

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hey oscar,

here's a weird question but could you do me a favor? when you're on final destination (or any stage really), how long are your nairs? i mean how much ground do they cover. how many dash-nairs across the screen does it take you to get to the end?

for me it's like 3-and-half, but every now and then it sometimes seems that i can go from the middle of fd to the very corner with just one dash-nair. so maybe it should only take 3.

anywho i made this thread because i love to practice and figure out how to do things with 100% execution and efficiency because i want to be the best. so consider this a repository for random practice things i discover. and for anyone else who wants to learn how to practice effectively / has useful tricks to contribute.

oscar how the hell do you moonwalk so effectively? does anyone know? is there some kind of trick, like the proper angle (geometry dawg) your hands should be taking on the analog stick? (i know it's also just a lot of repetition, but if you're doing something repetitively with poor technique it's just self-defeating.)

also if you don't know you can practice without a computer by making sure you have just one name entry. then pick your character and go down to where you put in a name tag. press a and b at the same time. when the screen comes up, let go of A. then press A again. like everything else in this game it's timing. if you get to the name entry screen then you pressed A too quickly. if you go back to the menu you pressed A too slowly.

it's really friggin sweet
 

Lovage

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not sure how long my nairs are exactly but i would definitely stress that having the ability to do MAX LENGTH aerials and MAX LENGTH wavedashes/wavelands is an incredibly important technique that every good player has mastered. mastering max length moves is equally as important as knowing when not to do a max length move for whatever reason.
*remember, you gotta continue holding forward after your aerial if you want to go the farthest.

in order to win in this game you need to have precise control of your character down to the pixel and millisecond.
 

shadrach kabango

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hey oscar,

do you know if a perfect shine oos can beat peach's float cancel (assuming she misspaces)?
 

shadrach kabango

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yeah but i mean when she's shield pressuring you.

i know fox's jab comes out frame 2 (!). is it the same for peach's jab? heck, for all jabs?

i gotta start jabbing moar

pivot jab shield pressure... nair jab shield pressure mixup..

yeah man i've finally discovered the fox forums and threads like http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60918 and http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109595. now i need to learn chaingrab percents on fox/falco/captain falcon.

i love how there are so many things to practice!!!
 

SUNG666

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Err her jab is fast but when she floats she has no aerial lag at all so her frame advantage is way high, if peach does float cancel F air perfectly into grab it's inescapable

I feel like I jab too much cause they can let go of shield into CC dsmash or falcon can do Dair oos when you jab etc but what do I know
 

Fly_Amanita

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Not all jabs are frame 2, although Peach's is. That speed is fairly uncommon.

Peach's fair induces 8 frames of shield-stun and she only has 4 frames of landing lag after FC fair, so she has a pretty sizable advantage on block (about 4 frames). This is enough to easily hit Fox out of any possible OoS punishes (provided the Peach executes well, which in reality is often not the case), but contrary to what Sung says, not enough to guarantee fair -> grab since grab comes out on frame 7.
 

Fly_Amanita

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It still should almost always work provided you do everything perfectly. Even if he has a few spare frames to start something before the grab hits, the only thing I see that Fox can do to avoid the grab in time is spot dodge (invulnerability takes a bit too long to come out for rolling to work in our happy frame perfect world). Of course, this all requires landing a close, near-the-ground fair on a shielding Fox in the first place, so it's not a situation that should be arising often.
 

CableCho57

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is there anything I can do (falco) vs a peach when she attacks my shield with a float canceled aerial to jab?

other random questions:

how important is boost grabbing? can it be utilized by characters other than shiek?

how important is moonwalking in today's metagame? specifically for cfalcon? I remember watching vids and reading threads in 2007 and people would say "its just used to be flashy, you dont need it at all"
but that must be wrong today right?

more relevant to me personally:

am I supposed to use the control stick to double laser with falco away from the stage?

and what about powershielding? other than lasers, do pros actually time their shields against an opponents aerials?
 

shadrach kabango

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is there anything I can do (falco) vs a peach when she attacks my shield with a float canceled aerial to jab?
roll

how important is boost grabbing?
i (fox) use it all the time when tech chasing

falco's is pretty good too because people shield all the time, especially near the ledge, v him.

how important is moonwalking in today's metagame? specifically for cfalcon?
not "important" but useful. the more mixups you have the better. law of diminishing returns applies. the better you are at it the better it becomes. see: lovage's fox

am I supposed to use the control stick to double laser with falco away from the stage?
-shrugs- dunno what you're getitng at here

and what about powershielding? other than lasers, do pros actually time their shields against an opponents aerials?
fly's done it against me maybe a half dozen times before as peach. this is all reactions though. when/if your reactions **** it just happens. it's a four-frame window iirc.
 

baka4moé

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u can buffer a roll from the jabs. also if u expect her do to the second jab u can grab her after that, but then its a guessing game cuz she can dsmash/grab/dd etc out of the first jab. at least from my experience
 

SUNG666

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^When holding shield you can buffer a roll/spotdodge/jump depending on where you hold your C stick (left-right/down/up) this makes it so you'll do either of these options on the first frame you are able to (such as out of shield stun).

For the laser thing I do it a lot and I just use X to B B

Adam I tried that single player mode it's freakin great, especially on fixed camera mode. But I couldn't exactly follow your instructions so I just looked it up online.
 

shadrach kabango

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when do I roll? in between her jabs?
after the fc fair

if she jabs cc grab (or usmash, or dsmash, but those are slightly riskier)

and the laser i'm talking about are like this

at 2:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q9fL2kMHYk

So i drop down, then do I use the control stick to jump back up and laser or y?
whichever jump button you're more comfortable with.

--

hey guys,

how do you sticky walk? that's the thing where you moonwalk and walk/crawl out of it, right?

im glad you like it sung hyun, although i'm not a fan of fixed camera
 

joeplicate

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i'll break it down to the best of my knowledge


afaik, the game only distinguishes between a few "states" when you're walking, sliding, or running around. there are a few things that affect your momentum.

1. walking, sliding, wavedashing (NO DASHING INVOLVED)
the game will show you doing a walking animation. it can look like a fast walk, a small walk, or barely anything at all. the only things that matter when you're in a walk state are your traction, your initial velocity, and the momentum you're inputting by holding the stick in a certain direction.

these things don't really have to match the walking animation, which is why it doesn't make sense sometimes. if you wavedash with luigi or marth on the UFO on fourside, or any other really slippery surface, you can walk your heart out to the left and still slide really, really fast to the right. the traction is way too low, so the walk input doesn't do anything.

when you're in the slide state, you can affect your momentum by holding in any direction. lots of luigi players will wavedash away, but hold TOWARDS to slow their wavedash down faster. conversely, if you wavedash away, and hold away, luigi will seamlessly transition into a walk towards the right. this is because it's the same state.

2. initial dash
when you do an initial dash, you get a speed boost in a direction, but (for the most part) it's more powerful than sliding or walking. it comes out immediately, instead of acting as a slow force like walking does. however, you can CONTINUE holding the stick in the direction of your dash to give it more momentum, making one dash go further (or shorter, if you let go of the direction immediately).

you can actually stack initial dashes for increased momentum. this is fox-trotting: if you do an initial dash in one direction, then HOLD the same direction to "lengthen" the initial dash, then do another initial dash for another speed boost, etc.... fox can cover distances faster than doing his regular running animation.

dash dancing is a very fine art because of this. you still have control over how FAR a dash goes based on how much you hold the stick in the same direction. if you dash dance by just flicking the stick, then letting it go back to neutral, then flicking it in the other direction, you'll cover a lot shorter distance. opposite: if you do far dashes back and forth, you'll have a much longer dash dance. PC chris always used to use really short dash dances, and jman is great at fox-trotting and long dash dances.

(have you ever felt in a ditto match that the other character was catching up to you, or running faster than you somehow? i think it's because, if you dash-dance TOWARDS them, then backpedal too hastily, you'll still have some momentum going towards them when you start running the opposite direction. thus, it takes longer for your initial dash/run animation to overcome the TOWARDS momentum, and the other fox runs in and ***** you.)

3. full run and turnaround animation
after your initial dash window expires, you go into a full run. your momentum mellows out and you start going at a roughly constant speed. you can't cancel this with an input in the other way; you'll go into the lengthy turnaround animation. the game wants to make it so the faster you're going, the more time it takes to turn around. there are ways around this, though--you can wavedash down or back, since jumping cancels the run/turnaround animation.


basically, the take-home message from all of this is:
NO MATTER WHAT STATE OF RUNNING OR WALKING YOU ARE IN, YOU CAN GIVE YOUR CHARACTER EXTRA MOMENTUM IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION BY HOLDING THE STICK.

even in a running animation, you can tilt the stick 45 degrees downwards and do a "slow run." the sideways vector of the force your stick exerts on your character is a lot smaller. try this with DK or ganon. it's ridiculous.



the way i understand moonwalking, you do a small dash in one direction (so you don't have a lot of momentum going the way you're facing), then impart as much backwards force on your character as you can without activating the initial dash animation in the opposite way. faptain calpon dashes left, but then the stick goes DOWN, just avoiding the neutral position so the initial dash RIGHT doesn't come out, then hits fully right. all your momentum is facing backwards, so you slide backwards. also, if you're walking/wavedashing to one side, then moonwalk back to that same side, the walk momentum stacks on to the moonwalk momentum. this is why fox has a good moonwalk only if you're walking one way beforehand.

a sticky-walk is just reversing the momentum from the moonwalk. you're sliding backwards, but then you hold back towards forwards. the forward-facing momentum you're imparting counteracts the backwards slide from the moonwalk, and you end up going nowhere for a split second. eventually, you transition into a full run animation and you'll start running the way you're facing again.

(you can also use the TURNAROUND animation to do a reverse-stickywalk; that is, a reversed reverse-moonwalk. silent spectre loves to play around with this. after your stickywalk, AFTER you've started the running animation to the LEFT, you can immediately start the turnaround animation to the RIGHT. if your stickywalk is very short--that is, if you have started your running animation to the LEFT but you still have a LOT of RIGHT-facing momentum--then your turnaround momentum will stack with your moonwalk momentum, and you turn around into a very fast-looking run.)

TLDR: to do a stickywalk, do a moonwalk, get a healthy amount of momentum going back, and then reverse that momentum. it takes awhile to cancel out, and you get "stuck" for awhile. so you do a half-circle back (or really, anything to get there as fast as possible to not activate the initial dash in the other direction), and then reverse that motion.



captain falcon is especially good at moonwalking, i think, because there's a long period where you can add momentum during his initial dash. if you just run in one direction, it takes him awhile to start up, but he can get going really fast. my take on this situation: during his initial dash, he's very "sensitive" to whatever momentum you put in. he's also got a long window where he's sensitive, so you can throw momentum around basically any which way.


the best way to learn all this stuff is to just play around with it. nothing like learning from experience.
 

shadrach kabango

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sick post, ty

there was a great question i had for oscar but i forgot it and im sad

i'll remember it soon

in my mind it was so good that he wasn't even gonna answer it because it would be betraying knowledge known only to the illuminated ones

how do you catch peach's turnips? A right before it hits you, right? how many frames do you have? i believe u have 4 frames before an attack hits you to power shield. must be at least 3x as many frames to catch a turnip, right? but is catching stitch-faces harder than other turnips?

practicing on a bowser w/ handicap is a great way to improve shield pressure tek skill
 

CableCho57

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can I shine out shield (as falco) when another falco is nair,dair/shine(perfectly) pressuring me?

if so, when? and how do I time it?

if not, what are some options to get out of the shield pressure?
 

DanteFox

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there is no perfect sheild pressure. There's always some free frames (something like 5-10? Idk) where you can attack them. If falco is dair-ing early, you can grab them as they fall back down, if they dair late, you can grab them as they jump back out of the shine. Easier said than done of course, but that's the idea.
 

shadrach kabango

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can I shine out shield (as falco) when another falco is nair,dair/shine(perfectly) pressuring me?

if so, when? and how do I time it?

if not, what are some options to get out of the shield pressure?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109595

the frame-perfect way of timing it is holding up with the c-stick to buffer a jump, and then shining on the first frame you jump. fox jumps on frame 3 and shines on frame 4 i believe. dunno falco's.

other options:

usmash (if they messed up their tech skill this is the optimal punish, but beware because usmash is slow and shine clanks with it)
wavedash out of shield (dunno how consistently this works, but if you can jump, then, in theory, you should be able to wd away. i know back when i mained marth if falco nair shined me i would wd after the shine and tipper fsmash)
roll (but if they know you're gonna roll shine usmash beats roll before invincibility kicks in according to that thread iirc)
 

CableCho57

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whoa...... holding up cstick to buffer a jump to shine??? that sounds freaking legit....

This buffering thing sounds really broken....

I gotta try it out, thx
 

shadrach kabango

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whoa...... holding up cstick to buffer a jump to shine??? that sounds freaking legit....

This buffering thing sounds really broken....

I gotta try it out, thx
i find it really, really hard

i've been practicing it occasionally for the past 3-4 weeks and i'm still not close to doing it consistently in a match (although i have prioritized other things ahead of it; that will change soon as i've begun to master the other things i've prioritized)

six years of jumping out of shield with X/Y will do that to you

once you get the timing down though it's pretty easy to wavedash right out of it

in another month or two i'll be able to demonstrate

also light shield beats pressure and you can light shield whenever you're not in shield stun

edit: in hindsight falco's shine oos is super easy compared to fox. the timing always felt more lenient to me, helped by the fact that falco's shine hitbox is huge
 

Lovage

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never catch peach's turnips on the ground, jumping and catching with Z is way easier. and yea theres barely any lag on it you can throw it almost immediately after
 
D

Deleted member

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n00by simple way to catch peach turnips:

block it then s-hop out of shield and press z very safe way to grab them

==

regarding peach f-air, buffer roll is the option i usually pick

if peach ONLY does jab(x2) after they hit your shield with f-air though, then just shield-DI f-air inside and grab after the jabs which is the route a good number of peaches take
 

shadrach kabango

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buffering shine may be worse for falco -- i dunno, i dont main him -- but i'm not buying it's worse for fox.

it's still timing. it's all about HOW you practice and train yourself. if you're just practicing one rote timing and thinking that's gonna help in a match, you're wasting your time. but if you're learning to shine as soon as your shield disappears, (and then) staying on the ground and wavedashing after, i don't see the problem in that

i find the timing for a competent buffer shine oos for fox more difficult than using x. i'm learning them using both, cuz like i said when im in a match i panic and go back to x/y. -shrugs-
 

shadrach kabango

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hey oscar,

i'm trying to master turning around in my shine for all kinds of shenanigans

and i discovered that you can run, shine, turnaround, and just grab the ledge

i do it once every blue moon when i'm totally not trying, and then when i try it never works

how the hell do you do this?

also,

i'm fox hanging on the ledge. i shine. after a certain amount of time you can't jump out of your shine. can you explain the properties behind this? does falco have a longer time to jump out of shine?

same thing with that silent wolf/toph shield stopping stuff. it seems like if you hold shield for slightly too long you jump out all slow. but if you hit a certain quick *** timing it's so fast and smooth. WTF?!

grrr, i'm starting to get so jelly of falco

also:

do you know if it's possible to jump while hanging from the ledge and then waveland? it seems like the game forces you to land no matter what
 

Lovage

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called shine-hogging

run off a ledge and shine right before you are gonna fall off it, then, as you're sliding off the edge: turn around in your shine and try to JUMP, if you time the jump right you'll just grab the edge it's super fast.



edit: you can ALWAYS jump out of your shine as long as you continue to hold B. if you press it and let go of it, there's a window where it just stalls you and you can't jump for a bit.
 

shadrach kabango

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Hey Oscar, Otto, or anyone with the requisite knowledge/technical skill,

Do you guys have any "obstacle courses" you would run through to hone your skill? Like (for example) using target test to practice your teching, or a nifty way to practice your firefox angles, or going through like 10 variants of tech skill like a mini tech skill video or what have you.

Is waveshining Marth to utilt guaranteed? Do you have to turnaround utilt?

One of the toughest things about maining Fox is remembering all the things he can do lol.
 
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