Practice Concept Thread

[MookieRah]

So I'm putting this up here as a means for people to discuss particular training methods, the goal of the method, and why others should try it. It's also for debating the efficacy of these methods, and trying to find even better methods of training. Hopefully, people will just post, as the M2 threads are pretty dead and hopefully this will at least get people talking about something.

20XX Comp Practice Idea : Don't Back Down

I've noticed that I'm often giving up stage because I'm often too noncommittal. I've taken the concept of only committing when I have to a bit to far, and end up losing opportunities because I'm overly cautious. Here is an example from this spring, it's my Marth but you can see what I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTfraNyLi20

To combat this in solo play, I've thought of a new way of playing against comps, in which I do not, ever, retreat in any scenario unless it's blatantly obvious and I have no means of stopping it with an attack. I also focus on not dash dancing much at all, as dash back prevents me from dtilting. The idea is not that dash dancing is bad, but I need to not rely on it as much as I do, and learn how to hold my ground better.

Things that I focus on while playing this way is my spacing, and to make sure that every attack lands. This is helping my spacing quite a bit, cause I often overestimate the range of M2's dtilt, ftilt, and grab by a tiny amount. This is a critical thing in general, but even more so when you are trying to shut down someone's approach.

Something unexpected that's happening from this change of perspective is that I have a much easier time of identifying when the comp misses a tech, something I have struggled with before. I'm not sure why it's much easier, but I am assuming it has to do with the hyper focus on my spacing that I am able to react to the green flash much easier than before.

So comments, ideas, critiques? All are welcome.

 

[M2Q]

so without the use of dash dancing or retreating washdashes im finding it hard to approach top tier computers. fox grabs, jabs, or smashes me. what do?

 

[MookieRah]

retreat in any scenario unless it's blatantly obvious and I have no means of stopping it with an attack.

It's ok to retreat if it's pretty much the only way to avoid something for one, but it's not really that hard to approach the computers. Ftilts as they dash into range will throw them off, as will dtilting. This is where spacing comes into play. Also, the AI tends to have near-perfect if not frame-perfect grabbing, and a lot of times a well spaced tilt means that they will grab you while your hitbox has extended but before the active frames are out. I wouldn't sweat it when that happens, as I haven't ran into any human players that could react like that (especially if you are mixing up your ftilts and dtilts),

BTW, this practice should only be done on the 20XX mod. I hinted at that with the name of the practice method but didn't say that directly. The reason why is because the AI mixes up their DI and they randomly tech (or not tech) allowing you to practice followups and tech chases.

Another point of focus on this is to learn your window of opportunity better. I have lots of bad habits of trying to go for things that I have picked up over the years of playing this game, and going for bogus opportunities is one of them. One good thing about computers is they tend to throw out a move (usually not the best move, but something) asap, so they will interrupt chains, opportunistic hits, or would-be combos by a frame perfect attack all the time. It's a good way of teaching yourself, at least in a general sense, when it is safe to go for something and when you should get out of there.

One last caveat to be aware of is that computers are computers. There is no point in expecting to learn more than you can from them, and to be aware of their limitations. I also don't propose you do this kind of practice for long, and to have other things that are more technical to work on to do in tandem. Lastly, I would suggest that before any tournament that you focus purely on playing as much with other people as possible to rid yourself of any bad habits you pick up from training against computers.

Keep in mind part of my problems (this one included) is that I have habits that stem from playing to much against the AI, however, I consider that overall I've improved more on the whole than I would have without that time, as I still manage to keep up with the people around me fairly well despite my lack of play. Armada and M2K also learned a lot from computers too, and they didn't have the 20XX hack pack, so there is a lot you can work on with them.

 

[M2Q]

so is the point of this to test just how aggressive you can be once you get your opponent in a combo? also, out of shield options for mewtwo: what are you thoughts? djc nair and fair out of shield works on comps but how useful is it really?

 

[M2Q]

btw i'd love some merciless critiques of my play if anybody is willing! youtube "ssbm m2q"

 

[MookieRah]

so is the point of this to test just how aggressive you can be once you get your opponent in a combo? also, out of shield options for mewtwo: what are you thoughts? djc nair and fair out of shield works on comps but how useful is it really?

Well specifically I'm trying to weed out a problem in my play, in which I give up space too easily. I hope to accomplish this by forcing myself to never give up space unless I have to, as a means to get more comfortable with holding space. It also covers a lot of fundamentals really well, such as spacing, as I'm focussing on interrupting approaches which requires fairly pin-point accuracy.

While I've thought up this training to help my specific problem, I suspect it could help others as well, but first you would have to understand the purpose of it to get any mileage out of it.

btw i'd love some merciless critiques of my play if anybody is willing! youtube "ssbm m2q"

I don't mind giving you a critique at some point, but I'll send you a PM. It would be better though if you were trying to get lots of feedback to start up a thread to critique your videos. Just know that the M2 forums are fairly dead so don't expect a ton of response.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

For Fox, I use the 20XX hack pack and just use the save and load states to practice up throw follow ups and stuff. The DI is random, so it's good practice as you learn the optimal thing to do at various DIs. That said, a good player will likely only DI away, as you have so much time to DI all of M2's throws. If the AI always DI's away then that would be the most common DI to expect, so it's good practice. There do seem to be some very funky DI angles that are difficult to follow up on, but since nobody knows how to fight M2 I very much doubt anyone would learn those angles.

As far as Marth goes, down throw doesn't give any guaranteed follow ups with proper DI, but I still think it's better than up throw because if they DI away they give up a lot of stage. The up throw sends him up very high even at low %, and yeah, perhaps you can get an u air off, but I doubt you could get much else, and after he lands you are back to neutral more than likely. I'd rather take the stage advantage than what the up throw would give me personally.

As far as what is optimal, well the hack pack isn't advanced enough yet to handle realistic juggle situations yet. If you are playing a CPU then they are just as mindless against basic juggles as the vanilla CPU. They are only good against throw setups, and then that only works the first few hits. I've noticed after a hit or two the AI no longer inputs any DI, as I could string together a crap load of claws and the comp is consistently sent upwards.

 

[MookieRah]

I've been working on a training regiment in order to tech chase better with M2. I will point out that I have not put this particular method into practice against human players; however, I am quite certain that this method would work fairly well, and any attempt to organize and break down a sequence of actions is likely better than winging it. If I had the time and the proper computer I would definitely try to take this on in Kadano like fashion, in which I could definitively claim/prove which method is the most optimal, but so far this is the best and most consistent way to pull off tech chases that I have come across. Feel free to critique this if you have ideas/suggestions for improvement.

The Goal / What I'm Striving For

The ideal situation is that one can follow up on tech chases a majority of the time. It's impossible for someone to keep up a perfect tech chase for too long, but to be able to rack up considerable damage as well as momentum against your opponent is something that is quite important in this particular matchup. In order to condition oneself as quickly as possible, I have developed a method that is consistent and covers every scenario. It's a mental checklist, if you will.

I'm starting with Captain Falcon, partly because the best player here has him as one of his mains, but also because his weight is ideal to tech chase from down throw. It's also less lucrative to up throw him than it is for the spacies, and without a shine it's much easier to land the grabs without being frame perfect.


Here is the run down:

Step One: Identify the DI
There are 2 things to look for here. Did they DI towards you and end up right on top of you, or did they DI away from you. If they are right on top of you, just stay put. If they DI away, wait a moment, and then dash forward. It is important to not dash too early, as it's important coming up that you are not stuck in your run animation.

Step Two: Listen for the tech
This, to me, is the hardest part, as it is an untrained reaction. In general though, it's best to learn this as an audio cue as your reaction time for sounds is better than visual stuff. So don't bother looking for the green flash, train yourself to hear the proper sound. If it's a tech, then you move onto step 3.

If it's a missed tech you can DJC a fair, perform a dtilt, or whatever is best in that specific situation.

Step Three: Follow the tech
After hearing the tech sound, you must react visually to the direction that your opponent has teched. If they attempt to roll through you, this is very easy, as long as you didn't dash so early that you get stuck in your run animation. If they tech in place, your dash forward should not have crossed up your opponent. Lastly, if they tech away you simply continue on into your run or wavedash forward.

Step Four: Grab or Attack
Congrats, if you did everything fast enough then likely you have earned a free grab and a chance to repeat. If not, then you need to judge if you should risk going for a grab, or instead going for another option. In any case, you are likely better off chasing them down, even if you know it wouldn't lead into anything guaranteed.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ihasabuket]

I was reading through some of this and read that upthrow doesnt really get you follow ups on marth and downthrow leads into a tech chase situation although he can jump out of it fairly early on. I think up throw and back throw could be useful just to give you a chance to charge up shadow ball. fully charged SB could probably be a good tech chase option. Since SB does 25% when fully charged it wont be outprioritized by any aerial (at least not one the high tiers have especially after the aerials have staled). At mid to high percents you can probably bait their jump from downthrow to get the SB off. If not at the very least you have a charged SB. Just some thoughts. itd be great if we could get a matchup thread going.

 

[MewtwoForce]

I would like to see this thread revived and hit with new fresh discussion. The 20XX hackpack is an invaluable training tool and learning to get more mileage out of it for mewtwo is very important. Deciding how we will practice with it is an important step in deciding how fast we will improve.

 

[TIN0]

does his nair or neutral b have starting lag? if they don't, can't you djc nair or neutral b then fflc and rinse and repeat?

 

[TIN0]

this is just a theoretical movement object and quick attack