Potential Specific Ban-List of Customs

[DoubleDorf]

With most tournaments allowing customs as of late due to EVOs ruleset, which customs can we safely say are game breaking? If you can also give proof (preferrably through tournament sets) that would be obliged.

 

[DMG]

Should modify thread name to something more specific. "List of unhealthy customs", "Potential specific ban-list of customs", etc

Average person glancing over thread name is gonna assume you're here to complain about some moves.

 

[Thekiller37]

Villagers explosive balloons can phase through any stage when recovering to a ledge, hitting the edgeguarder away. Villagers damaging and tripping tree sprout as well is crazy fo stage control for villager, making the only counter another villager. I can't remember, but I don't think you can actually get rid of the sapling either.

 

[p1ay6ack]

i agree. you should change the title to what the above poster said. "broken customs" is just asking for a black/white argument about customs

 

[DoubleDorf]

i agree. you should change the title to what the above poster said. "broken customs" is just asking for a black/white argument about customs

Title updated

 

[Unknownkid]

Well, Villager's Extreme Balloon Trip got nerf so we don't know if still causes the same issues. For now, Pikachu's Heavy Skull Bash is questionable.

 

[TheAnomaly]

My list would be heavy skull bash, wind cyclone(slight windbox nerf would be appreciated. It sometimes drags you downwards offstage without the DK player having meant to do it). Everything else can be played around, except possibly trip sapling. Explosive ballon trip is nothing without trip sapling protecting it.

 

[RayNoire]

Until someone besides default Diddy/Sheik wins something, I'm going to go ahead and say "none."

 

[Hippieslayer]

With most tournaments allowing customs as of late due to EVOs ruleset, which customs can we safely say are game breaking? If you can also give proof (preferrably through tournament sets) that would be obliged.

There are no customs which we can safely say are game breaking. The one which stands out is heavy skull bash. Villager can't camp like before (he has to go to the ledge quickly or he runs outta helium) and so is easier than before to dsmash due to predictable timing, as well as easier to gimp.

Are there any other customs which are even worth mentioning? I don't think so. If anyone still thinks Dong Cyclone is OP he or she should be infracted.

 

[DMG]

There are no customs which we can safely say are game breaking. The one which stands out is heavy skull bash. Villager can't camp like before (he has to go to the ledge quickly or he runs outta helium) and so is easier than before to dsmash due to predictable timing, as well as easier to gimp.

Are there any other customs which are even worth mentioning? I don't think so. If anyone still thinks Dong Cyclone is OP he or she should be infracted.

It was more clear what moves were silly or possibly silly before this patch. I don't even know the full list of character changes or custom changes at this point.

Pika stun-jolt was getting some discussion after a couple vids + ESAM showing it off. That was recently though, and right before the patch. Most complains about customs tended to revolve around general effects of warping neutral or changing some aspect of fighting in ways they didn't appreciate. It'd be nice for someone prominent in Smash 4 community to more explicitly state what moves they are talking about: discussion seems to revolve around FOTM stuff (til it gets nerfed)

 

[Doruge]

Needle Storm is more ban-worthy than any custom move.

 

[Raijinken]

We can't "safely" say any are game-breaking or ban-worthy yet. A lot of people get pretty salty over Villager's, but heck, even Little Mac handles those well since he can armor through.

 

[DunnoBro]

HSB + Para jolt can actually be argued game-breaking, it creates zero incentive for pika to do anything but camp for HSB set-ups after a certain %

Kong cyclone and villager(pre-patch) are absolutely nothing compared to HSB's full potential, they're merely easy to be used in the optimal manner and create easy decision making at worst.

Kong cyclone did not help DK's awful neutral game at all. He just got an easy return/reject from neutral. (it was not any kind of approach option like some people make it out to be. not against players with any kind of familiarity with it)
Similarly with villager, he still had to win neutral to be a threat. (and only against the fraction of characters incapable of challenging the ledge stall)

Pikachu does not have to play the neutral. And if he does, his is one of the best in the game.

When discussing past customs such as Kong Cyclone, Helicopter Kick, and Fast Fireballs/Pills/Laser bits, there were always default specials I could compare them to and assign them objective weaknesses or drawbacks.

The closest comparison that exists for heavy skull bash is rest. And that's only in the manner of it's strength and usage as a punish. But it lacks the risk/reward ratio entirely. In fact, with para jolt, and ledge grab combos, it has zero risk set-ups.

You can look all you want, you will not find any combination of customs as consistently potent on a character with an already absurd potency level.

I have doubts a banlist can go over well regardless, but for those hoping for one, I can tell you subjective labels as "broken" or "neutral-breaking" certainly won't win anyone over.

Only a label like "game-breaking design inconsistencies" to get stuff like HSB with it's smash charge ability, stun jolt with infinites, lightweight infinite, things that were likely not intended and lend themselves to degeneracy could have any hope of being upheld.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah, I don't think any customs are decisively broken to the point where they need to be banned. Yet. We'll see if Pikachu goes anywhere in particular with Heavy Skull Bash but that's the biggest threat of the month right now. There are a lot of really freaking annoying customs, but then again there are a lot of really freaking annoying default specials too. Needle Storm, Banana Peel, Monkey Flip, Spin Dash, Gravitational Pull, Quick Attack, and so forth.

 

[Dr. Bread]

honestly i think most custom moves should be banned, whether they are broken or not. most custom moves aren't broken, but many of them are questionable, and clearly very unpolished.

That said, its clear that some custom moves, such as kirby's upper-cutter or ganondorf's wizard's drop-kick help to diversify the competitive scene by helping to mitigate the weaknesses of mid-low tier characters and thus are constructive to the game overall.

Allowing characters that were already high-viability to use customs that improve their moveset even further is pretty unnecessary.

On the other hand, there are some customs out there that improve a mid-low tier character's moveset but also feel kinda outrageous...

 

[Ansou]

Both Pikachu's and Captain Falcon's paralysing infinite combos are kinda scary, but I doubt that they can really be classed as broken.

 

[Tinkerer]

Can we ban Bouncing Fish and Boost Kick? They're killing way too easily.

 

[monzer]

It seems like 75% of the cast has a custom that could be considered "broken" I would wait before banning any moves until it is certain that the move is completely overpowered and breaks the meta.

 

[WritersBlah]

I'm of the opinion that perhaps it isn't singular custom moves themselves that should be banned, but rather specific combinations that cause degenerate gameplay. Example: Sheik's Penetrating Needles and Gravity Grenade make an already ridiculous character even more absurd. However, limit Sheik to only one of those two customs, and though she's still probably best in the game, she's no longer bordering on broken tier. Similar clauses can be made for Rosalina (Luma Warp + Shooting Star Bit), Pikachu (Thunder Wave + HSB + MQA), and Villager (EBT + Counter Tree).

 

[Doruge]

I'm of the opinion that perhaps it isn't singular custom moves themselves that should be banned, but rather specific combinations that cause degenerate gameplay. Example: Sheik's Penetrating Needles and Gravity Grenade make an already ridiculous character even more absurd. However, limit Sheik to only one of those two customs, and though she's still probably best in the game, she's no longer bordering on broken tier.

Yeah, let's not ban bouncing fish, or needle storm, or any of sheik's actual good moves...let's ban gravity grenade, a side-grade of her worst special by far...I'm sure THAT'll solve the problem...

 

[TriforceOfAura]

Villagers explosive balloons can phase through any stage when recovering to a ledge, hitting the edgeguarder away. Villagers damaging and tripping tree sprout as well is crazy fo stage control for villager, making the only counter another villager. I can't remember, but I don't think you can actually get rid of the sapling either.

Actually no, the Villager who planted the tree can cut it down without getting beaten up by a tree.

 

[TriforceOfAura]

Here are some customs I think should be banned:
: Ride The Wind: This absurd recovery, at very high percents(160-190%) actually travels just as far as Villager's. I've tested it, it's broken.
Jumping Rest(I think that's what its called): After using Rest, Jiggs jumps high up into the air as so when she touches down, she wakes up, maiking it much harder to hit her while she's asleep. Rest still does the full damage.
Pocket Plus: It's name is pretty much enough said. Bigger pocketing wondow.
Power Counter: Sure, the counter window is much shorter, but during a match where my friend was Ike and I was Lucario, my countered fully chaged Fsmash(I was at 70% or so) did 58 damage! No customs!

There are others, but I can't find my 3DS, and don't own a Wii U.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I think we should just give up customs...

 

[Dr. Bread]

in my opinion most customs should be banned, even the ones that aren't broken per se, some of the customs just dont feel like real moves. Not that there aren't customs that are broken and should be banned, i can't possibly see how luma warp could do anything but harm gameplay for instance.

only a careful selection of customs should be allowed, obviously its up to tournament organizers to decide which ones, but i'd say customs like ganon's wizard dropkick or kirby's uppercutter should be the ones we should be looking at. customs that feel like they could actually be in the game, don't have any interactions that could potentially ruin a game, improve a low-tier character, and dont improve the moveset of a character who was already high-viability.

 

[Tinkerer]

So, completely based on awkward, inconsistent, subjective ideas then? "Don't feel like real moves" is going to be a damn hard thing to define.

I'm not utterly against banning some customs (like how some games ban certain characters or weapons, and Brawl has a number of ledge grabs), but it should absolutely be done from an innocent-until-proven-guilty standpoint.

 

[Zelder]

Well Dr. Bread, I didn't think it was a good argument the first time, but when you posted the same thing in almost the exact same way, it really opened my eyes that you're still making a bad argument. What does "doesn't feel like a real move" even mean?

 

[Dr. Bread]

when i say 'real move' i mean a move that isn't out of place among the standard specials. i think its safe to say that samus's slow charge beam is not a move that anyone could look at and say "uhh yeah sure i could see that being a standard special"

that said i guess certain standard specials make no sense either, but i would definitely say there's a lot of customs that are pretty outrageous within the context of anything that could be considered competitive gameplay.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

when i say 'real move' i mean a move that isn't out of place among the standard specials. i think its safe to say that samus's slow charge beam is not a move that anyone could look at and say "uhh yeah sure i could see that being a standard special"

that said i guess certain standard specials make no sense either, but i would definitely say there's a lot of customs that are pretty outrageous within the context of anything that could be considered competitive gameplay.

Yet if Samus had a bigass slow charge shot since the 64 days I'd bet the idea of a fast charge shot would be equally weird. "WTF she can kill from across the stage! Ban!"

For a better example of this, look at any of the newcomers. Their specials have no tradition/Smash history keeping them in place, so which one ended up as the default was probably arbitrary to a degree. Would everyone complain about Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit quite as much if they were Rosalina's default neutral/side specials? Then there's stuff like Boost Kick. ZSS with a deadly OOS option? Perish the thought!

 

[Dr. Bread]

Yet if Samus had a bigass slow charge shot since the 64 days I'd bet the idea of a fast charge shot would be equally weird. "WTF she can kill from across the stage! Ban!"

For a better example of this, look at any of the newcomers. Their specials have no tradition/Smash history keeping them in place, so which one ended up as the default was probably arbitrary to a degree. Would everyone complain about Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit quite as much if they were Rosalina's default neutral/side specials? Then there's stuff like Boost Kick. ZSS with a deadly OOS option? Perish the thought!

as for what you said about samus, the reaction wouldn't be as weird as you think, people are conscious of what characters need and where characters suffer, i doubt many would be outraged. People react positively to good design, despite the stereotype that players throw tantrums whenever something changes. Otherwise why would we see such positive reactions to certain customs, but negative reactions to wind kong, or the tripping sapling?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

as for what you said about samus, the reaction wouldn't be as weird as you think, people are conscious of what characters need and where characters suffer, i doubt many would be outraged. People react positively to good design, despite the stereotype that players throw tantrums whenever something changes. Otherwise why would we see such positive reactions to certain customs, but negative reactions to wind kong, or the tripping sapling?

Because DK has been less-than-stellar in every official Smash game to date and suddenly has a very reliable tool to escape disadvantage and return to neutral that must be respected properly or else you'll eat damage every time and I rather suspect some (not all, but some) people who hate Kong Cyclone hate it because now DK isn't quite so free anymore. Meanwhile, people tend to hate annoying trap/stage control characters in general so you could see the vitriol aimed at Timber Counter coming a mile away. Or so I believe somewhat cynically.

 

[Takehiko]

Until someone besides default Diddy/Sheik wins something, I'm going to go ahead and say "none."

I feel like this^. When you watch clash customs tourney matches unless the character already has proven customs that are "broken", you won't seem them used. Almost every other character used other than DK, Rosa, Villager, and Pikachu, you will see only 1111. We'll never know what might be "broken" until people dig deeper and use these other characters in a tourney environment, so we can have a holistic view of what's game breaking. That's what I'm hoping customs at evo will bring.

 

[Illuminose]

Just to make it clear: I'm in favor of having no customs at all. That said, if we were to have a ban list, this is what I'd go with.

Definite Bans

Heavy Skull Bash: Its kill power is just way too good. This combined with the fact that it can be set up out of the Thunder Wave infinite and rar uair just makes this move banworthy.

Kong Cyclone: I honestly don't care that this move 'can be dealt with'. It really does everything. Incredible horizontal recovery, windbox that pulls opponents in, autocancels easily, is strong enough that it can even kill, has super armor... Depending on how you get hit by it and caught by it, you can't just air dodge out of it. You can punish the position at which it lands, but this can be difficult especially due to the fact that the windbox can push characters in shield away from Donkey Kong.

Twisting Fox: Fox is a high tier character with multiple solid kill options. Having an Up B like this to punish a simple air dodge (it can also be comboed into) and that kills so stupidly easily is way too powerful of a tool for a character that is this good already.

Hurricane Kick: The ability of Mii Brawler to combo into this so easily and kill so early just makes this move too good. dthrow -> up b, dthrow -> fair -> up b, and flip kick -> up b are some relatively easy setups (especially the dthrow ones) of note.

Timber Counter: Tripping effect and how much stage/neutral control combined with planking potential make this move an overpowering force that encourages degenerate play. The biggest issue is that you literally can't do anything about it -- it sits there for 15 seconds and Villager has control of the neutral. You can't destroy it, you can literally only jump or roll over it.

Shooting Star Bit: For the second best character in the game, who already has a dominant neutral and solid zoning, to get this projectile that gives her so much safe pressure/zoning is really too much.

Hammer Spin Dash: Even though usmash was merged (killing like 10% later, yeah big nerf), it's still apparent imo grounding opponents is WAY too big of a reward off spin dash, especially providing that reliable kill setup into usmash for a character that has plenty of easy kill options/setups...Sonic is top tier. This is a bit too much.

Soaring Tornado: I really don't care how bad a character is, no character deserves an option like this. The massive disjoint and EXTREME power on this move (I've seen, in practice, kills as early as 30% by the ledge) is so beyond absurd that I think this move is still banworthy despite being on a rather meh character.

Quick Missile: On literally any other character, a recovery buff would be fine, but not when you're top 5 in the game and having an exploitable/linear recovery is supposed to be your weakness. Such an immense buff in horizontal recovery due to not having to charge this move is overpowered in the sense that Luigi doesn't really have that weakness with this move.

Potential Bans

Extreme Balloon Trip: The nerf really doesn't affect ledge planking with this move too much...I feel that the inability to challenge Villager's recovery and potential for stalling, though less effective without trip sapling, could potentially be banworthy. That said there is literally no data to back this up because all Villagers use trip sapling, so it's all just theory at this point.

Thunder Wave: Even without Heavy Skull Bash, the stun that gives Pikachu reliable potential setups/follow-ups could be seen as banworthy. Again, no data because all Pikachus use Heavy Skull Bash.

Dark Fists: This is another case where I don't feel that any character deserves an option such as this. In Ganon's case here, you have this decently fast move with super armor that can be used out-of-shield and kill at absurdly early percentage (like 50%) with rage. This tool is kinda silly, Ganon really being that bad is the only thing that sets me back from putting this under definite bans.

 

[Zelder]

Thank God someone is finally standing up against the meta defining, bracket ruining terror that is Soaring Tornado on Doc.

The only move I'd consider banning is Heavy Skull Bash unless a patch comes through that removes smash charging for that move, but seriously, I can't believe you're afraid of anything that Doc has.

 

[WritersBlah]

Yeah, let's not ban bouncing fish, or needle storm, or any of sheik's actual good moves...let's ban gravity grenade, a side-grade of her worst special by far...I'm sure THAT'll solve the problem...

I never said nor meant to imply that Gravity Grenade itself is broken. I meant when combined with Penetrating Needles, it sets up for some really nasty unblockable kill setups. Pulverize the shield with PN, then shield stab with the GG, instant up-smash setup. Now if you have Gravity Grenade by itself, of course it's not gonna be that useful, it's the utility it brings when combined with shield-killing needles. The needles minus GG are also nasty, but they no longer have a guaranteed kill setup. See, what I was trying to get across that you clearly didn't understand was that it's not specific special moves that require banning, e.g. most ideal result would be a setup with penetrating needles and a setup with gravity grenade, but not one with both.

If you need a more clear example, think Pikachu. Heavy Skull Bash is already a ridiculous move, but combine that with Thunder Wave, which stuns grounded opponents, and not only do they have to be blocking Pika's up close attempts, now they pretty much just can't be on the ground period because if the thunder hits their shield, you have a grab setup, and if you actually get hit by it, HSB and there's a stock. Thunder Wave also can be combined with Meteor Quick Attack to setup for an infinite against all of the cast. But Thunder Wave by itself isn't so bad. Heck, remove HSB and MQA from the equation, and Thunder Wave is arguably inferior to the default Thunder Jolt. It's the combination of certain custom moves together that are the problem. I mean, we all know how annoying it is to play Villager in customs thanks to Exploding Balloon Trip and the tripping sapling which shuts down 90% of any approach in the game, but take one or the other away, and suddenly the match-up isn't nearly as bad.

 

[AaronSMASH]

I'm not sure if it's "broken" but a grounded yoshi bomb (the 3rd custom. Can't remember the name) killed Kirby at 48% on FD in practice (ceiling blast zone). I find that absurd considering the move doesn't take all that long to come out.

 

[Doruge]

I never said nor meant to imply that Gravity Grenade itself is broken. I meant when combined with Penetrating Needles, it sets up for some really nasty unblockable kill setups. Pulverize the shield with PN, then shield stab with the GG, instant up-smash setup. Now if you have Gravity Grenade by itself, of course it's not gonna be that useful, it's the utility it brings when combined with shield-killing needles. The needles minus GG are also nasty, but they no longer have a guaranteed kill setup. See, what I was trying to get across that you clearly didn't understand was that it's not specific special moves that require banning, e.g. most ideal result would be a setup with penetrating needles and a setup with gravity grenade, but not one with both.

Unblockable kill setups? Are you actually serious? Gravity Grenade is sheik's most telegraphed move by FAR, it doesn't matter how low your shield is, there is no excuse to get hit by this move. And even if you DO get hit by it, you can easily DI and avoid the up-smash. Calling gravity grenade a "guaranteed kill setup" just shows that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

 

[WritersBlah]

Unblockable kill setups? Are you actually serious? Gravity Grenade is sheik's most telegraphed move by FAR, it doesn't matter how low your shield is, there is no excuse to get hit by this move. And even if you DO get hit by it, you can easily DI and avoid the up-smash. Calling gravity grenade a "guaranteed kill setup" just shows that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

You don't seem like the type of person to take information at face value without video proof, which admittedly I'm unable to provide (as most Sheik players on customs apparently prefer regular needles to penetrating needles), so the most I can provide is an anecdote. I had the opportunity to play some friendlies with @Master Raven a few months ago (on FIU's main campus), and he was indeed using penetrating needles and gravity grenade. Now, I'll admit to overstating gravity grenade as a sort of thing you can just pull immediately after PN (you can't), but against an aggressive Sheik player, you're bound to be shielding a lot, even at full stage distance. Penetrating Needles did their job of depleting my shield, and throwing a well-spaced grenade is quick enough where your options can be limited to run away, double jump, or shield. Needless to say, my shield already being pretty darn depleted, I couldn't react quick enough to the explosion, which naturally led into up-smash.

Now, perhaps a better question in this situation would be, "Would default grenade have killed anyway in that situation?" To which the answer is almost certainly yes, but what changes is reliability. Unless she lands a bouncing fish, Sheik is much better suited to vertical kills than horizontal ones, so if you are able to get the read, why would you risk using an attack with arguably less pay-off when you have a more reliable option in your kit? I mean, you could argue that about Sheik's side-B as a whole, but I think you're seriously underestimating the surprise factor. Like you said, if the grenade is such a telegraphed move, then surely it would never work. Therefore why would you ever expect to see it? As for DI'ing away, that sounds great in theory, but there are more punishes to GG aside from up-Smash, and a high-level player is a lot more likely to make those kinds of reads.

Also, one aside, I understand that the information I've presented for my case has been faulty, as you pointed out, but must you really be so hostile? Elaborating that a move doesn't work the way I think it does is one thing, but saying "I don't have the slightest clue what I'm talking about" is a lot more insulting. The entire reason I'm here (as I'm sure you are) is to make sure my argument is heard and considered by other members of the community. We are changing Smash 4's possible future after all, and I understand we're all going to have different perspectives, but I don't think insulting people with less knowledge than you is going to fix anything.

 

[Illuminose]

You don't seem like the type of person to take information at face value without video proof, which admittedly I'm unable to provide (as most Sheik players on customs apparently prefer regular needles to penetrating needles), so the most I can provide is an anecdote. I had the opportunity to play some friendlies with @Master Raven a few months ago (on FIU's main campus), and he was indeed using penetrating needles and gravity grenade. Now, I'll admit to overstating gravity grenade as a sort of thing you can just pull immediately after PN (you can't), but against an aggressive Sheik player, you're bound to be shielding a lot, even at full stage distance. Penetrating Needles did their job of depleting my shield, and throwing a well-spaced grenade is quick enough where your options can be limited to run away, double jump, or shield. Needless to say, my shield already being pretty darn depleted, I couldn't react quick enough to the explosion, which naturally led into up-smash.

Now, perhaps a better question in this situation would be, "Would default grenade have killed anyway in that situation?" To which the answer is almost certainly yes, but what changes is reliability. Unless she lands a bouncing fish, Sheik is much better suited to vertical kills than horizontal ones, so if you are able to get the read, why would you risk using an attack with arguably less pay-off when you have a more reliable option in your kit? I mean, you could argue that about Sheik's side-B as a whole, but I think you're seriously underestimating the surprise factor. Like you said, if the grenade is such a telegraphed move, then surely it would never work. Therefore why would you ever expect to see it? As for DI'ing away, that sounds great in theory, but there are more punishes to GG aside from up-Smash, and a high-level player is a lot more likely to make those kinds of reads.

Also, one aside, I understand that the information I've presented for my case has been faulty, as you pointed out, but must you really be so hostile? Elaborating that a move doesn't work the way I think it does is one thing, but saying "I don't have the slightest clue what I'm talking about" is a lot more insulting. The entire reason I'm here (as I'm sure you are) is to make sure my argument is heard and considered by other members of the community. We are changing Smash 4's possible future after all, and I understand we're all going to have different perspectives, but I don't think insulting people with less knowledge than you is going to fix anything.

Penetrating Needles + normal Grenade breaks shields. That in itself is infinitely more useful than the Gravity Grenade setup. Burst Grenade has utility as a ledge trap and for edgeguarding as well. Gravity Grenade isn't really something you can set up usefully or land outside of reads and very specific scenarios, which limits its overall use.

 

[Doruge]

post

Well I'm sure you know that we need more than anecdotal evidence if we're going to ban something. And it really doesn't matter if you expect gravity grenade or not, you should easily be able to avoid it on reaction because it really is THAT slow. If your shield is low, it's up to you to figure out how else to avoid the grenade. If you make the wrong decision, that doesn't mean the move needs to be banned. It means you should learn from your mistake so it doesn't happen again.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I'm not sure if it's "broken" but a grounded yoshi bomb (the 3rd custom. Can't remember the name) killed Kirby at 48% on FD in practice (ceiling blast zone). I find that absurd considering the move doesn't take all that long to come out.

Crushing Bomb is actually really slow. The first hit is frame 19 if I'm the data I use is correct, as opposed to frame 7 on the regular Yoshi Bomb.

I don't think it's even good enough to use over the standard down-B. It doesn't matter how powerful the attack is as long as it's too slow. Otherwise, Ganondorf would be top tier.