Potential Roster/Stage Leak Thread

[Novice_Brave]

do you mean in front of lucario?

Nah, "underneath Falco" would mean that character would be taking Lucario's exact current spot, pushing Lucario one slot forward so that he sits directly underneath the other Pokemon characters.

That Brawl image does make a lot more sense for sliding around characters than the current leaked CSS does if there are still characters to be unlocked, but keep in mind that it might also be different both because there are fewer missing characters there (supposedly, if we're believing that there are still 5 slots left) and that series are positioned horizontally rather than vertically. I don't think these are things that would change it too incredibly drastically, but we really don't know for sure right now.

EDIT: @greyback just saw your other post. Ignore me

 

[TheOthin]

It's hardly comparable since Brawl's roster organizes franchises vertically unlike Smash 4 and Melee which organize franchises horizontally.

Horizontal organization just means less distortions. The slide system appears to work the same way, and in fact it's even better for a horizontally organized roster.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Horizontal organization just means less distortions. The slide system appears to work the same way, and in fact it's even better for a horizontally organized roster.

I agree with the sliding, but the example still came off as much more severe than it really is.

 

[salmonofdoubt]

THE ROSTER IS INCOMPLETE. This is confirmed by either the leaker or Masterlinkx, can't remember which.

You are misinformed, the roster is almost certainly complete. The people speculating that there might be more characters don't have any more information than the rest of us, and Neo Zero just confirmed that to me in a private message.

Keep in mind that the only believable part of the leak is the images. The leaker's claims of DLC were false, and Masterlinkx has already admitted to trying to confuse people by editing and changing the leak. Trust the images, and don't let yourself get disappointed by people preying on your optimism. Any leak that is just text is probably false.

 

[cmbsfm]

You are misinformed, the roster is almost certainly complete. The people speculating that there might be more characters don't have any more information than the rest of us, and Neo Zero just confirmed that to me in a private message.

Keep in mind that the only believable part of the leak is the images. The leaker's claims of DLC were false, and Masterlinkx has already admitted to trying to confuse people by editing and changing the leak. Trust the images, and don't let yourself get disappointed by people preying on your optimism. Any leak that is just text is probably false.

I saw sal in your name and thought you were @salromano, lol.

Well that sucks if this is the full roster.

 

[Saltwater Gem]

Let's be clear: at no point did the leaker say he hadn't unlocked everyone. That was just fan speculation.

It's not just that the leak looks so good (amazing attention to detail, bulletproof renders of new characters, etc.), but it's also the incredibly improbable timing of the whole thing. Right after Brinstar, yet right before Tomodachi. It doesn't seem likely that this English speaker was the only person to get the Famitsu leak early (because it wasn't leaked anywhere else) just to put this only little piece of the puzzle in the leak. Because while it definitely adds a little extra credibility, the leak would really have not been significantly less credible if they just used old Tomodachi pics. It's not like any of us would have said, "That's the same room! FAKE!"

#teamreal

 

[MunchyMunch]

You are misinformed, the roster is almost certainly complete. The people speculating that there might be more characters don't have any more information than the rest of us, and Neo Zero just confirmed that to me in a private message.

Keep in mind that the only believable part of the leak is the images. The leaker's claims of DLC were false, and Masterlinkx has already admitted to trying to confuse people by editing and changing the leak. Trust the images, and don't let yourself get disappointed by people preying on your optimism. Any leak that is just text is probably false.

Well even with the moderators here throwing people off as well, I don't think we can trust anybody.

INCLUDING YOOOOOOU.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

To reiterate, the additional characters ARE simply fan speculation. Nobody ever confirmed they were actually in the game.

 

[BindingBlade]

To reiterate, the additional characters ARE simply fan speculation. Nobody ever confirmed they were actually in the game.

...except Masterlinkx.

 

[TheOthin]

To illustrate my point about horizontal rosters being less distorted, have a sample Brawl roster changed to horizontal organization:

Mario - Luigi - Peach - Bowser - DK - Diddy - Yoshi - Wario - Pit
Link - Zelda - Ganondorf - Toon Link - Kirby - Meta Knight - Dedede - Marth - Ike
Pikachu - Pokemon Trainer - Lucario - Jigglypuff - Fox - Falco - Wolf - Samus - Ice Climbers
Ness - Lucas - Captain Falcon - Olimar - Game & Watch - ROB - Snake - Sonic - Random

You can see that the characters are still organized by series, just differently. Now let's see how the starting version of that roster would look, according to the slide system:

Mario - Peach - Bowser - DK - Diddy - Yoshi - Wario - Pit
Link - Zelda - Kirby - Meta Knight - Dedede - Ike - Pikachu - Pokemon Trainer
Fox - Samus - Ice Climbers - Lucas - Olimar - Random

As you can see, the characters are STILL grouped by series! Perfectly, in fact. The only way a horizontally organized roster could have characters separated by a horizontal scrolling system would be if a series got caught around a scroll point at the edges, so that's a way it can go wrong (and it does with the Zelda characters in the Smash 4 demo) but it's far less severe than the original Brawl distortions.

Those are the types of CSS distortions we'd expect to see with a sliding, horizontally organized Smash 4 roster like the one in the leak: small and rare ones. Not characters getting thrown halfway across the screen or sandwiched in the middle of a series. That couldn't happen with the simple scrolling Brawl used, and the simple scrolling works so well that there's no reason to do anything more complicated.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Something I find almost compelling is simply the fact that Mother is a series with two potential veteran reps, and Starfox a series with three - and yet, less than a month before release, we've seen no Mother characters and only one Starfox character. Considering both the fact that pretty much every series so far has shown the majority or all of its returning vets, but we're still stuck with two remaining vets to be made known for both Starfox and Mother. Even if he wanted to keep one veteran from each series secret, his patterns so far would suggest we'd know at least one Mother character and at least two Starfox characters by now. Every day that ticks by without a reveal of a Mother/Starfox character makes it more likely that we're getting a cut there, IMO.

Honestly I expected IC by now also, considering they're traditionally starter characters. I know that this is in no way a science, but it does make me suspicious for sure. I still absolutely hope that - at the very least - IC are returning. I'd like Wolf and Lucas, but... I guess I can sort of understand their removal. Completely eliminating a series' fighter representation doesn't make much sense to me, but we'll see.

 

[Casey_Contra]

To reiterate, the additional characters ARE simply fan speculation. Nobody ever confirmed they were actually in the game.

Yes, but I have heard multiple sources (and mods) say that the leaded image isn't the final roster. Even if that isn't true, I like having some room for more speculation.

 

[Samuel Intrater]

Not quite. Remember, the Direct showed a shadow of Ridley. This Famitsu magazine has now confirmed that this big thing that casts the shadow IS the stage hazard.

It never even said that directly.

 

[Novice_Brave]

You are misinformed, the roster is almost certainly complete. The people speculating that there might be more characters don't have any more information than the rest of us, and Neo Zero just confirmed that to me in a private message.

Keep in mind that the only believable part of the leak is the images. The leaker's claims of DLC were false, and Masterlinkx has already admitted to trying to confuse people by editing and changing the leak. Trust the images, and don't let yourself get disappointed by people preying on your optimism. Any leak that is just text is probably false.

I don't think we can say it's "almost certainly complete" any more than we can say it's "almost certainly incomplete." Right now it could go either way, and there have been a few sources that have implied that there are still more.

 

[TheOthin]

You are misinformed, the roster is almost certainly complete. The people speculating that there might be more characters don't have any more information than the rest of us, and Neo Zero just confirmed that to me in a private message.

Keep in mind that the only believable part of the leak is the images. The leaker's claims of DLC were false, and Masterlinkx has already admitted to trying to confuse people by editing and changing the leak. Trust the images, and don't let yourself get disappointed by people preying on your optimism. Any leak that is just text is probably false.

With no word from leakers on whether or not the roster shown is final, the reasonable inference based on the images is that it is an incomplete roster.

While no one has explicitly denied or disproved the idea that the leaked CSS shows a complete roster, the odds of that being the case are low enough to not even be worth considering.

 

[A Lucky Person]

Has ANYONE had the thought that we can reorganize the CSS to our liking in this game?

 

[TheOthin]

Has ANYONE had the thought that we can reorganize the CSS to our liking in this game?

I've wondered about this. It strikes me as fairly unlikely, but it's the only way I could believe the leak's CSS is accurate with the final game.

 

[Saltwater Gem]

...except Masterlinkx.

I'm not sure why he has any credibility. There's no reason to think he has any insight and has already shown a desire to screw with people.

 

[Reila]

Honestly I expected IC by now also, considering they're traditionally starter characters. I know that this is in no way a science, but it does make me suspicious for sure. I still absolutely hope that - at the very least - IC are returning. I'd like Wolf and Lucas, but... I guess I can sort of understand their removal. Completely eliminating a series' fighter representation doesn't make much sense to me, but we'll see.

It does make more sense when you remember Sakurai said they were having trouble making the Ice Climbers work in the 3DS version.

 

[TheAnvil]

With how much quality this game oozes from every angle, I'm 99% sure that Sakurai wouldn't present such a sloppy looking/nonsensical CSS.

- Yoshi randomly interrupting the Mushroom logo Mario reps, despite always being seperate-although connected to them.
- Dr Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit being away from their respective series, but Toon Link being with the Zelda reps. It's not as if these are new clones, Toon Link has been in as many Smash games as Dr Mario has.
- Shulk randomly being allocated to the 3rd Party row. It would have made for more sense to put Shulk around the WFT/Ness area and have complete rows, and the bottom row would have been flush with all the other rows (Mii Fighters mirrors the random slot nicely).

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not sure why he has any credibility. There's no reason to think he has any insight and has already shown a desire to screw with people.

He didn't want to screw with people, he wanted to make people think the leak was fake to keep it from spreading.

 

[Ganonthegreat]

- Dr Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit being away from their respective series, but Toon Link being with the Zelda reps. It's not as if these are new clones, Toon Link has been in as many Smash games as Dr Mario has.

Ganondorf and Falco agree.

 

[A Lucky Person]

I've wondered about this. It strikes me as fairly unlikely, but it's the only way I could believe the leak's CSS is accurate with the final game.

Agreed. Characters being thrown across the screen make no sense, but that's one of very very few reasons to discredit this leak.

I believe it's valid, but I still don't know if we've seen all the characters and/or if the CSS is purposefully messed up to throw us off.

 

[Shariq]

Never thought I would say this, but I can't wait till the weekend is over.

 

[Novice_Brave]

It does make more sense when you remember Sakurai said they were having trouble making the Ice Climbers work in the 3DS version.

But would that really prevent him from showing them at all? I'm sure that even if they were having to work around issues, if they had gotten them fixed (which I'm almost certain they'd be able to do) then they've probably existed as full, playable fighters for a long time now. I don't think there's much chance he just finished them in a build a month ago, since he'd also need to get them into bug and balance testing and all of that fun stuff... all before the game's planned release in two months. I'm sure all of the playable fighters were fully playable if buggy and unbalanced quite some time ago.

The only reason I can even think of for removing them, though, would be to have DHD replace them as the main "retro" fighter. Out with the old and in with the... old?

 

[LeeYawshee]

- Dr Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit being away from their respective series, but Toon Link being with the Zelda reps. It's not as if these are new clones, Toon Link has been in as many Smash games as Dr Mario has.

Toon Link isn't a full clone. Those clones have similar proportions to their original, Toon Link doesn't. Along with that, Toon Link has more than one move that's different than the rest. Dr. Mario might have one or two (down special and down air respectively) but he is still recognize as having the same proportions as Mario.

Along with that, Toon Link has a bunch of different moves from Link. And with Link getting new moves, this only further differentiates Toon Link

 

[Saltwater Gem]

He didn't want to screw with people, he wanted to make people think the leak was fake to keep it from spreading.

He said he wanted to make people question the leak, nothing about it spreading. And I still don't see why he has any credibility.

 

[Ganonthegreat]

Toon Link isn't a full clone. Those clones have similar proportions to their original, Toon Link doesn't. Along with that, Toon Link has more than one move that's different than the rest. Dr. Mario might have one or two (down special and down air respectively) but he is still recognize as having the same proportions as Mario.

Along with that, Toon Link has a bunch of different moves from Link. And with Link getting new moves, this only further differentiates Toon Link

Good point, but that doesn't really explain Ganondorf though. According to the leaked images of gameplay it appears he is mostly unchanged.

 

[micstar615]

I believe Sakurai tried to implement IC (which is why we have/had the Polar Bear in Smash Run) but I think Sakurai and his team just stopped at some point, maybe cuz it wasn't worth the time to them. If that's the case, I'm sure there has been some effort put into them and they'd likely return as DLC.

 

[Deleted member]

He said he wanted to make people question the leak, nothing about it spreading. And I still don't see why he has any credibility.

He got early access to the Shulk portrait, and spent a lot of time editing it. Meaning he had early access for a few days before this was all posted

 

[Reila]

But would that really prevent him from showing them at all? I'm sure that even if they were having to work around issues, if they had gotten them fixed (which I'm almost certain they'd be able to do) then they've probably existed as full, playable fighters for a long time now. I don't think there's much chance he just finished them in a build a month ago, since he'd also need to get them into bug and balance testing and all of that fun stuff... all before the game's planned release in two months. I'm sure all of the playable fighters were fully playable if buggy and unbalanced quite some time ago.

The only reason I can even think of for removing them, though, would be to have DHD replace them as the main "retro" fighter. Out with the old and in with the... old?

That would prevent him from showing the Ice Climbers if they couldn't make them work. The only way to make sense of Ice Climbers being cut is assuming Sora Ltd couldn't make the character work without desync issues in the 3DS version.

Ice Climbers aren't the only retro fighters in Smash, though. Don't forget Pit. Yes, he got a new game a few years ago, but he was a retro fighter when Brawl came out. So no, I don't think Duck Hunt is replacing them.

 

[Novice_Brave]

With how much quality this game oozes from every angle, I'm 99% sure that Sakurai wouldn't present such a sloppy looking/nonsensical CSS.

- Yoshi randomly interrupting the Mushroom logo Mario reps, despite always being seperate-although connected to them.
- Dr Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit being away from their respective series, but Toon Link being with the Zelda reps. It's not as if these are new clones, Toon Link has been in as many Smash games as Dr Mario has.
- Shulk randomly being allocated to the 3rd Party row. It would have made for more sense to put Shulk around the WFT/Ness area and have complete rows, and the bottom row would have been flush with all the other rows (Mii Fighters mirrors the random slot nicely).

I agree that the CSS looks kind of sloppy, and that Yoshi and Shulk's placements are pretty strange. I do think, however, that the "clone section" is reserved for what are essentially complete, unabashed, Dr. Mario/Mario style clones. Clones that have essentially the same physical stat spread (height, weight, speed, etc.) as well as the same animations on their moveset. Their only major differences will likely lie simply in different attributes with the attacks themselves - different amounts of knockback, different angles, different damages, etc. etc. Toon Link is much shorter, much faster, and has a couple unique moves. I don't think he belongs in the ultra-clone section, not quite.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Good point, but that doesn't really explain Ganondorf though. According to the leaked images of gameplay it appears he is mostly unchanged.

There was one leaked image of gameplay and he was rolling.

If Ganondorf was unchanged then these would be his different moves: Jab, Side Special, Side Tilt, Forward Air, Down Tilt, and Final Smash. Some people say Up Smash and Up Tilt but I personally still see them as cloned moves.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Expecting this to be fake.

Or real. #Idk

 

[Novice_Brave]

That would prevent him from showing the Ice Climbers if they couldn't make them work. The only way to make sense of Ice Climbers being cut is assuming Sora Ltd couldn't make the character work without desync issues in the 3DS version.

Ice Climbers aren't the only retro fighters in Smash, though. Don't forget Pit. Yes, he got a new game a few years ago, but he was a retro fighter when Brawl came out. So no, I don't think Duck Hunt is replacing them.

I guess if they've changed a lot due to them being tweaked to make them "work," or he's saving them for a newcomer trailer, then he could be holding off on their reveal. It's always possible. And I don't think DHD is replacing them either, they don't really fulfill the same niche other than "retro." I mostly just wanted a chance to make the "out with the old and in with the... old?" joke

I do want them back, and honestly I kind of still expect them back. I'm just trying to point out some things that may add a bit to the leak's possibility of being real, because both sides of the argument should be explored.

 

[4cast]

Sakurai Does Not Count Toon Link as a clone due to the Power speed height and weight being different then Link This can also apply to Ganondorf But with Falco....I dunno Unless he has had some Very huge move set change I don't see why he is not with Doc Lucina and Dark Pit I'd assume if Lucas is DLC Then He would go on the Clone Row with The other 3

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Toon Link isn't a full clone. Those clones have similar proportions to their original, Toon Link doesn't. Along with that, Toon Link has more than one move that's different than the rest. Dr. Mario might have one or two (down special and down air respectively) but he is still recognize as having the same proportions as Mario.

Along with that, Toon Link has a bunch of different moves from Link. And with Link getting new moves, this only further differentiates Toon Link

But Toon Link has basically the same specials and FS. Kinda sucks for the Zelda series that since Brawl, they've had 5 reps, two of which are (semi-)clones and 3 FS moves between them. Assuming Ganondorf is returning, as per the leak. Then we've got KI with as many reps as games, and I foresee, Pittoo having at least a few specials different. Uncool to the highest degree.

With how much quality this game oozes from every angle, I'm 99% sure that Sakurai wouldn't present such a sloppy looking/nonsensical CSS.

- Yoshi randomly interrupting the Mushroom logo Mario reps, despite always being seperate-although connected to them.
- Dr Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit being away from their respective series, but Toon Link being with the Zelda reps. It's not as if these are new clones, Toon Link has been in as many Smash games as Dr Mario has.
- Shulk randomly being allocated to the 3rd Party row. It would have made for more sense to put Shulk around the WFT/Ness area and have complete rows, and the bottom row would have been flush with all the other rows (Mii Fighters mirrors the random slot nicely).

That is a great point. I really dislike how the CSS looks, especially compared to the other Smash games and the E3 demo. I think 'sloppy' is a great description. There's so much evidence in both directions, this is making me go nuts. I guess I'm jsut really trying to hold onto the hope that some of the West's popular characters will be getting in too.

 

[salmonofdoubt]

With no word from leakers on whether or not the roster shown is final, the reasonable inference based on the images is that it is an incomplete roster.

While no one has explicitly denied or disproved the idea that the leaked CSS shows a complete roster, the odds of that being the case are low enough to not even be worth considering.

You're entitled to believe what you want, but I'm just trying to help temper your expectations for the inevitable disappointment when the game comes out. We're looking at the final roster, and I would bet money on that if I could because I know that I would win. The leaker had images or videos the game, and showed us the most interesting one that included all the playable characters. All of the reasons you think it is incomplete are based on the logic of character order.

Sakurai always does something that seems nonsensical to us, but clearly has a weird logic to him. And the truth is, we can infer what that logic is when looking at this roster. Last minute clones are grouped at the bottom because they weren't planned in the original CSS. Yoshi is now considered part of the Mario series for some reason. Shulk is considered third party (or maybe just not a true Nintendo character made by a Nintendo studio). Everything else is in the order we would expect of a final roster based on past games.

I'm not saying it's impossible that we get more characters, but if you truly believe that you are setting yourself up for major disappointment. Feel free to ridicule my certainty if it turns out there are more characters, but I can guarantee that the people hoping for a bigger roster are falling victim to the same denial in the Brawl prerelease era.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Sakurai Does Not Count Toon Link as a clone due to the Power speed height and weight being different then Link This can also apply to Ganondorf But with Falco....I dunno Unless he has had some Very huge move set change I don't see why he is not with

Falco got changed pretty handily in Brawl.

His fsmash, jab, utilt, nair, fair, and uair are all completely different moves, and many characters have a "backwards kick" and "drill" move for their bair and dair, and Falco's are pretty different from Fox's in terms of properties.

His moveset is less cloned than TL's, so I don't see any issue with him not being considered one of the "hard" clones.

 

[4cast]

But Toon Link has basically the same specials and FS. Kinda sucks for the Zelda series that since Brawl, they've had 5 reps, two of which are (semi-)clones and 3 FS moves between them. Assuming Ganondorf is returning, as per the leak. Then we've got KI with as many reps as games, and I foresee, Pittoo having at least a few specials different. Uncool to the highest degree.



That is a great point. I really dislike how the CSS looks, especially compared to the other Smash games and the E3 demo. I think 'sloppy' is a great description. There's so much evidence in both directions, this is making me go nuts. I guess I'm jsut really trying to hold onto the hope that some of the West's popular characters will be getting in too.

I like the CSS Leak better then the e3 build