Post-EVO Customs Discussion: Brevity, Synergy, and Variety

[GeneralLedge]

This is a place to discuss the ongoing topic of Customs. If you're an anti-customs user of the forum, that's okay. You can stake a claim here and discuss how you feel customs could be handled, if you think there's a way they could be handled better. However, please do not post about how customs should be "banned", or that certain moves should be "banned". That kind of discussion will alienate a lot of people, and severely derail the topic.

EVO is currently going strong. I can't watch it right now, and that sucks, but I can certainly start the next generation of customs discussion instead.

To begin with, I'd like to discuss the topic of redundancy in the customs environment, and how it could be improved to both strengthen customs as a player option when playing, and customs as a topic of discussion when exploring ways to change the game.

Redundancy in customs, at least from my experiences, cover a large list of flaws in the customs movement, and is part of the reason why so many people are reluctant to play custom characters. An example of redundancy in customs could be taken from Pit/too's current EVO sets:

1112
1113
2111
2112
2113
3111
3112
3113

The first question many players should be having, is "What's the difference?" And lo, in writing this, I haven't a clue either. I know the first digit affects Pit's arrow, and the last digit affects his orbitars. But what purpose does each individual combination actually serve? ARE people going to prefer a specific set over another? Or do these all exist simply to fill the available slots?

To solve this problem, I have a simple three-term structure: Brevity, Synergy, and Variety.

Brevity is simply the act of reducing the number of options available. And I can hear you clicking that reply button and clacking away on your keyboards in protest, but hear me out.

It's severely unfortunate that we're limited to only 10 sets per character, as opposed to simply changing individual custom moves when selecting a character. It is a second part of the grand divide between pro- and anti- customs players. As a part of the solution to this problem, @Amazing Ampharos created his Custom Moves Project to determine which custom moves are preferred in the community, to utilize these slots to their full advantage.

However, a lot of people don't really know. They still don't know. I don't know. Is 1112 Pit better or worse than 1113 Pit? Who knows!

Brevity would be reducing these redundant sets to a minimum. The intrinsic flaws of 'don't know' are accompanied by difficulty in actually picking the one players want to use (by having to scroll through a large list), as well as the jarring list available to new players who want to dive into the customs scene. Add to this the factor of a TO actually organizing these customs on every console in their belonging, and it's... just a mess. A mess we should clean up.

The step in determining which sets should truly stay, and which should truly go, is Synergy.

Synergy, in a customs environment, comes down to which customs work best with the character's other custom moves, or the central character they're being used by. It isn't up to which customs are objectively the best by effect, but rather which customs work the best when utilized by a character that wants them or not.

Good customs Synergy, for better or worse, include Villager's Extreme Balloon Trip and Trip Sapling, and WFT's Jumbo Hoop, Weighted Header and Volatile Breathing. They outline a general plan, which the rest of the character's options can follow. They outline a unique way to play the character, and by proxy, create a new character.

Bad customs Synergy would include Donkey Kong's infamous Kong Cyclone. It's true that the move itself is exceptionally good. But does it work well with other moves in his set? Is there an intrinsic game plan that Kong Cyclone has to follow? Or does it come down to simply falling off the ledge and using Kong Cyclone over and over? (I legitimately don't know)

A result of this, is the move itself taking priority over a character, and variable other options becoming, unfortunately, redundant, and/or boring. There's very little tangible need to have multiple Kong Cyclone sets, if none of these additional moves will be utilized. If there's an argument that can be made for one or two particular sets, then that's great! But if there isn't, then it's redundant.

The final factor to this, as a result, is Variety.

We don't know how every combination of customs work, in every situation. And as a result, we don't take risks. We wind up with redundancy, because we want to play it safe. We want customs-goers to be happy, and experience the best that the mode of play has to offer. But as previously stated, this is a bad thing.

In taking the time to solve the problems of Brevity and Synergy in existing customs, we open up new options and new styles of play. By reducing the number of redundant safe-sets on the list, we make room for less ample, and much more experimental custom movesets.

In doing so, the mode can finally breathe. We can learn about new types of move Synergy we previously ignored in favor of redundancy. Gone would be the complaints about the mode being boring, or about certain moves deserving the unwieldy call for bans. The game would change, for what I feel would be the better.


So this topic has a lot to cover:

- Are there particular movesets that can be condensed to avoid redundancy?
- Should condensed movesets be given proper names for reference, instead of simply "2211"?
- Is there move Synergy that EVO's sets unfortunately avoid or ignore?
- Would a broader scope of Variety in movesets be beneficial or detrimental to the future of customs?
- Does this guy make unwieldy and long-winded posts, or what?


Also, don't be afraid to just discuss the usual custom-focused debates and whatnot, if the whole B/S/V thing isn't something you want a part in discussing. I don't intend to exclude users who'll take one look at this massive OP and head for the hills.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, they really are just there as filler. The Breezy Flight Uspecial is useless, and Striking Flight is useful in one highly uncommon matchup, VS. DDD. Quickdash/shock Arm trades power they need for distance that they really don't need, and Interception/Electrocut Arm takes away a potent recovery option and is really hard to hit with.

I get what you're saying, but Pit and Dark Pit weren't the best examples.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I think the issue that sort of comes up against this argument is that some people see customs as a way to revitalize characters to the point of relevance, where is you seek to create almost new characters with new interesting dynamics (which I think is a better idea). Take the DK cyclone for example, that move might be so much better (taking your work for it) than DKs default that people will only opt to use DK with that custom active because it'll finally make him a "comp-viable" character. Unfortunately a lot of people have this sort of mentality with customs and why they should be used. Its creates some sort of deviance in an otherwise very rigid-feeling tier list. I believe that if customs were used to counter balance each other (for a good custom to be used, it has to be balanced with a bad one), then we'd have new character design as a whole. A point system or something would be groovy.

I can't go into much detail because I'm at work, but I like the cut of your jib. It's just unfortunate people don't see it that way (which is why I'm often anti-custom).

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Super excited about the future of customs also so I like this thread but it's def gonna take some time and a lot of watching the EVO videos in particular. Like I know none of us are expecting a new setup by Monday but I'm more telling to myself the need for patience.

 

[Pazx]

I can't get behind this idea. Trying to reduce the number of custom sets seems to go against what customs are to me, they allow you to customise your character to use them how you want to use them and I think that's what we should be promoting, not "synergy".

 

[Raijinken]

I can only see a point in reducing it if we're going to fill it back up.

Yes, there are a lot of "redundant" sets, but in so far as there's no discussed (and thus, suggested and used) set that got cut in favor of a "redundant" one, there's no benefit to not using all ten slots for time-strict events, which is the point of the project.

Smaller tournaments or smashfests are where people generally should be experimenting with the sets that aren't in the project (and even some that are, i.e. sets 9 and 10 on many characters). If people decide that it's actually redundant to have, for instance, differences in Pit's arrows and orbitars (I can think of several cases where I'd want a different orbitar, but admittedly none in which I'd want anything but Guiding Arrow since I play Dark and not Normal Pit), then those sets can be replaced with new tricks.

Personally, though, unless we decide to dedicate a few slots to Doubles-Specific synergies/sets, I don't see any reason to shorten the list of those generally used. Worst-case scenario we can reorder the lists to put newly popular sets toward the top. If that eight-second of time to scroll really matters to people.

 

[smashbro29]

What is the next big event after evo? Do they even allow customs?

 

[19_]

What is the next big event after evo? Do they even allow customs?

nah no customs at any big events for a while probably. Smash con in august has no customs.

 

[smashbro29]

nah no customs at any big events for a while probably. Smash con in august has no customs.

Smash con is the next big thing. True.

 

[blackghost]

Smash con is the next big thing. True.

thats the big crime here. Evo has had a good showing with these moves and now other tournments are just gonna sit back and act like something went wrong? Thats messed up. So already dapuffster, aerolink palutena (extremely entertainmenting), and vinnie lose thier characters? thats messed up.

 

[Raijinken]

thats the big crime here. Evo has had a good showing with these moves and now other tournments are just gonna sit back and act like something went wrong? Thats messed up. So already dapuffster, aerolink palutena (extremely entertainmenting), and vinnie lose thier characters? thats messed up.

Quite honestly, as much as I love customs, the biggest loss from disabling them is that we're literally cutting three unique characters off the roster just 'cuz. There is literally no reason to refuse to run Miis when five minutes can make three (mediocre default-size 1-1-1-1) relatively unexplored characters for people to have the option to play.

Honestly can't see anyone wanting to play them at a serious level without customs, but at least the choice would be there.

 

[Pazx]

Quite honestly, as much as I love customs, the biggest loss from disabling them is that we're literally cutting three unique characters off the roster just 'cuz. There is literally no reason to refuse to run Miis when five minutes can make three (mediocre default-size 1-1-1-1) relatively unexplored characters for people to have the option to play.

Honestly can't see anyone wanting to play them at a serious level without customs, but at least the choice would be there.

Which tournaments are banning Miis entirely?

FWIW I think limiting Miis to 1111 is effectively banning them, but I'm curious to see if tournaments are outright banning them.

 

[ZarroTsu]

My two cents:

Customs need a change in how we handle them, because the current atmosphere makes it clear that it isn't working.

If we refuse to change the way we handle customs, we don't avoid making it worse, our paranoia kills us from the inside-out.

The current situation at EVO is many top-tier players losing to customs, because they didn't understand how to handle them. They thought customs presenting any sort of game-change was a joke, so they didn't care to prepare. They didn't do their homework, because none of us conveyed any form of serious reason that they should have.

So now, we're the bad guys. It's a hollow victory to use something nobody practiced to sneak a victory. Is this true? Regardless, it's the way it appears to everyone else. People will scream for bans, because we're the rogue magicians with cheap parlor tricks to swindle the competition.

I see many people claim they want to see the customs meta evolve, and yet many say they don't want to change it. It won't evolve if you keep mashing the B button...

 

[blackghost]

My two cents:

Customs need a change in how we handle them, because the current atmosphere makes it clear that it isn't working.

If we refuse to change the way we handle customs, we don't avoid making it worse, our paranoia kills us from the inside-out.

The current situation at EVO is many top-tier players losing to customs, because they didn't understand how to handle them. They thought customs presenting any sort of game-change was a joke, so they didn't care to prepare. They didn't do their homework, because none of us conveyed any form of serious reason that they should have.

So now, we're the bad guys. It's a hollow victory to use something nobody practiced to sneak a victory. Is this true? Regardless, it's the way it appears to everyone else. People will scream for bans, because we're the rogue magicians with cheap parlor tricks to swindle the competition.

I see many people claim they want to see the customs meta evolve, and yet many say they don't want to change it. It won't evolve if you keep mashing the B button...

Any "top player " that went ot evo thinking they didn't need to be ready for customs, then they deserve to get knocked out early. The ruleset has been known for MONTHS. There's no execuse IMO. Just like every top player had to prepare to fight shiek zss, and rosalina. I don't see a difference preparing for customs.
For custom pro players evo is a huge win no more jankiness than normal, EXACT same players everyone thought would be in contention are, and no DK at all in top 32.
ALso what top players lost to custom players

 

[Raijinken]

Which tournaments are banning Miis entirely?

FWIW I think limiting Miis to 1111 is effectively banning them, but I'm curious to see if tournaments are outright banning them.

I agree with that statement.

As for which tournaments, that statement was actually rather reckless on my part. I haven't actually seen those sorts of claims generally speaking from people I know to be TOs. But I have seen a lot of unfavorable discussion about "How do you think we should handle Miis in a Customs Off tournament?" A lot of people (or maybe I'm just subconsciously inflating the abundance of opposition) think they should just be left off entirely in such a case. But like you put it, limiting them to 1111 mid size is indirectly banning them, since even Brawler is basically trash in that setup.

 

[C0rvus]

Customs have always been a mixed bag, and while they make Rosalina and Pikachu among other already dominant characters better, they give a number of characters a new lease on life. Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Miis, Robin, Villager, Ike, etc. all really enjoy having them, some of them need them to even stand a chance. But then, some characters like Greninja, DLC characters, etc. don't really care about customs, and would be better off in an environment without them. I think they are what the "true" Smash 4 is, for lack of a better word. But it's such a grey area. Why are they so annoying to unlock? How do we handle Miis in a tournament setting? So, I can understand the reasoning for both sides. I personally, would love to continue use of custom moves. They are what makes this game special, in a basic sense.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Customs have always been a mixed bag, and while they make Rosalina and Pikachu among other already dominant characters better, they give a number of characters a new lease on life. Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Miis, Robin, Villager, Ike, etc. all really enjoy having them, some of them need them to even stand a chance. But then, some characters like Greninja, DLC characters, etc. don't really care about customs, and would be better off in an environment without them. I think they are what the "true" Smash 4 is, for lack of a better word. But it's such a grey area. Why are they so annoying to unlock? How do we handle Miis in a tournament setting? So, I can understand the reasoning for both sides. I personally, would love to continue use of custom moves. They are what makes this game special, in a basic sense.

Just curious (as in not trying to be aggressively argumentative), how would characters like greninja and dlcs "be better off in an environment without customs"? Is it just because as more characters get better they move down places? Can't they still hold their own in a customs on environment without necessarily getting worse?

Which tournaments are banning Miis entirely?

FWIW I think limiting Miis to 1111 is effectively banning them, but I'm curious to see if tournaments are outright banning them.

It took Xanadu about two months to allow miis at all, and that's at 1111 and before customs were even considered. Idk about anyone else banning them outright now.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Just curious (as in not trying to be aggressively argumentative), how would characters like greninja and dlcs "be better off in an environment without customs"? Is it just because as more characters get better they move down places? Can't they still hold their own in a customs on environment without necessarily getting worse?

That's basically it. They don't literally get worse, but if everyone around them gets better while they get marginal or no benefits, then they move down by comparison. And that makes some people upset.

 

[san.]

It depends. Greninja can stay the same, but actually do better since his good MUs become more common and his worse MUs become less common, even when many other characters seem to get better.

This doesn't usually happen, but it can.

 

[C0rvus]

Just curious (as in not trying to be aggressively argumentative), how would characters like greninja and dlcs "be better off in an environment without customs"? Is it just because as more characters get better they move down places? Can't they still hold their own in a customs on environment without necessarily getting worse?

The way I see it, since characters like Greninja and Meta Knight and DLC characters benefit very little from customs (or don't have them), they would likely prefer to be in an environment without customs. Other characters get better with customs, while they stay the same. They would be better off if other characters were not stronger, simply put.

Edit: I've been 'ed!

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I guess from a simple process of elimination perspective that makes sense. I'm just not sure how "worse" they'd become. Is it worse to the point of unusable in a customs on meta, or only slightly worse but still viable in a "more balanced" meta so they can shine alongside these new characters getting their due?

Edit: I guess my question is, do they get significantly worse by comparison to the point where the only way they become viable is to demand customs off? Idk if we can say that for any character so far.

 

[C0rvus]

I guess from a simple process of elimination perspective that makes sense. I'm just not sure how "worse" they'd become. Is it worse to the point of unusable in a customs on meta, or only slightly worse but still viable in a "more balanced" meta so they can shine alongside these new characters getting their due?

It's pretty much the simple fact that since they don't get better in a customs environment, but other characters do. Some MUs become harder because the opponent has stronger or different tools, but they are the same.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Quite honestly, as much as I love customs, the biggest loss from disabling them is that we're literally cutting three unique characters off the roster just 'cuz. There is literally no reason to refuse to run Miis when five minutes can make three (mediocre default-size 1-1-1-1) relatively unexplored characters for people to have the option to play.

Honestly can't see anyone wanting to play them at a serious level without customs, but at least the choice would be there.

As much as I'm pro customs this 100x. This desperately needs to be sorted out the only way it should: by mii's being allowed. Be it standard size and default movesets and no tinkering with names and clothes allowed to save time, that's of less importance.

Though the best and most sense making solution is to have them be standard size and allow them access to all their moves. Size's are weird, they create an insurmountable amount of differing frame data's and other stuff, making it very hard to learn how to play them perfectly, what can punish what etc, plus minimum is pretty much always the way to go anyway so its not like it offers much actual diversity anyway. If sizes are to be allowed adjustment they should be standardized imo.But in any case, mii's not being allowed at tourney is just such a sad and unnecessary scenario which should never occur.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is probably not the best example to use there though. While he doesn't get anything super big, he does have his two shuriken customs which are all great. We even saw aMSa set up a footstool combo with the help of Stagnant Shuriken, he definitely does benefit from customs. It's nothing amazing, but it does give him options. Being able to set up a footstool combo that easily or getting guaranteed Up-Smashes out of a transcedent projectile is still pretty great.

I think if we want a character who is probably better at the default meta, it's probably Meta Knight.

 

[blackghost]

It's pretty much the simple fact that since they don't get better in a customs environment, but other characters do. Some MUs become harder because the opponent has stronger or different tools, but they are the same.

No one custom moves give the exact same tools. Greninja gets a projectile that pulls you towards him. Thats not a weak tool tool. Everyone gets something how you implement it up to the player. Look at Zss default up b i remeber the first weeks people couldn't find a use for it then the Nairo combo happened and yeah... I used to joke that everyone gets something except zelda. Thats not true. Zelda gets blaze a trapping edge gaurd and great for forcing players to recover where you want them too and if zelda knows where you will be those dairs or fairs hurt. Some characters have moves that are obviously good (Palutena) or not so much. Duck hunt has quick fire gunman and a can that goes vertical. The can can do north of 50 percent and combo and quick fire gunman give duck hunt villager aeriels. And the last grouping of cusotm moves are situational or matchup relient. Ness down b that doesnt absorb but is a strong hit box and others.
The main point i want to make is there is no reason these options should be taken for no reason. and just because you see a bad tool/move doesn't mean I do.

 

[C0rvus]

Greninja is probably not the best example to use there though. While he doesn't get anything super big, he does have his two shuriken customs which are all great. We even saw aMSa set up a footstool combo with the help of Stagnant Shuriken, he definitely does benefit from customs. It's nothing amazing, but it does give him options. Being able to set up a footstool combo that easily or getting guaranteed Up-Smashes out of a transcedent projectile is still pretty great.

I think if we want a character who is probably better at the default meta, it's probably Meta Knight.

I realize that, at least Greninja has Shuriken and to lesser extent, Substitute customs to work with. Meta Knight doesn't really have anything (I recall hearing that Dreadful Tornado is useful for heavy matchups maybe?). And of course the obvious candidates for customs-off benefactors would be the DLC characters. So yeah, not the best example.

I would say I support customs, simply because characters like Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer get a shot for once. But the biggest challenge is still the organization of customs-on play; how will TOs handle their use? Where do they fit into counterpicking? Which sets to we use? What about players who use non-standard sets? These questions have been answered somewhat, but now that EVO isn't looming over our heads, perhaps it's time to go more in-depth with our answers. Amazing Ampharos did a great job with his collection of standard sets, but maybe we should do another round at some point? There were a couple of Pac Man players bemoaning the fact that none of the EVO sets used default Trampoline, and some of the Standard Custom Moveset threads I looked at weren't very responsive, so the sets might need an update. Perhaps with the guidance/input of top players of each character? Just a thought, I realize that may be very hard to organize.

 

[ZarroTsu]

At least one subset of the future of customs should acknowledge counter-pick scenarios. "Oh I lost with Wario/Speed Bike? Lemme change to Wario/Heavy Bike instead." This sort of thing could stand to happen more, and would better justify having single-digit set changes.

It's a shame so many customs are straight up/downgrades and not simply side-grades (between all three) like they arguably should be.


On an aside, RE: 'Brevity' - Anyone have a list of which of the EVO custom sets were and weren't actually used, these past six months? I'd be curious to see how many have only existed due to choice paranoia.

 

[Balgorxz]

having less sets makes sense 90% of the time there are 1 or 2 viable sets per character also it can avoid jank.

 

[Raijinken]

Greninja is probably not the best example to use there though. While he doesn't get anything super big, he does have his two shuriken customs which are all great. We even saw aMSa set up a footstool combo with the help of Stagnant Shuriken, he definitely does benefit from customs. It's nothing amazing, but it does give him options. Being able to set up a footstool combo that easily or getting guaranteed Up-Smashes out of a transcedent projectile is still pretty great.

I think if we want a character who is probably better at the default meta, it's probably Meta Knight.

In my experience, High-Speed Drill is pretty awesome, since most people don't end up using regular drill much anyway. Especially in the Rosalina matchup, in my limited experience, it basically guarantees a Luma kill when used toward an edge.

having less sets makes sense 90% of the time there are 1 or 2 viable sets per character also it can avoid jank.

There's extremely little in customs that's any jankier than something in defaults. It's literally a matter of willful ignorance, when the movesets have been posted for months. And we don't consider just banning crazy characters because few people play them (hard to practice against) and they have some janky properties (i.e. Shulk or WFT).

 

[Balgorxz]

In my experience, High-Speed Drill is pretty awesome, since most people don't end up using regular drill much anyway. Especially in the Rosalina matchup, in my limited experience, it basically guarantees a Luma kill when used toward an edge.


There's extremely little in customs that's any jankier than something in defaults. It's literally a matter of willful ignorance, when the movesets have been posted for months. And we don't consider just banning crazy characters because few people play them (hard to practice against) and they have some janky properties (i.e. Shulk or WFT).

with that I meant with 2 sets for example a viable set that would beat little mac on a matchup 100-0 like 4 windbox specials, no one would pick that unless the oponent wasn't mac, or 4 anti projectile specials against pacman and 4 camping specials.
movesets that are good only in certain situations instead of being a solid all around movesets.
I'd rather have 2 good alternatives than everyone knows.

 

[Raijinken]

with that I meant with 2 sets for example a viable set that would beat little mac on a matchup 100-0 like 4 windbox specials, no one would pick that unless the oponent wasn't mac, or 4 anti projectile specials against pacman and 4 camping specials.
movesets that are good only in certain situations instead of being a solid all around movesets.
I'd rather have 2 good alternatives than everyone knows.

Fortunately, no such combinations exist, since barring Palutena and Miis, everyone's customs are essentially just variants of their move without such drastically changed properties.

Either way, matchups are relevant in moveset, and I am interested to see how tournaments incorporate that limited sort of counter-picking into their rulesets. But ultimately, I've yet to see evidence that a highly specialized custom moveset will go further than a player's skill or the stage choice. DK's a great example of what you mentioned (two windboxes that typically aren't windbox moves, contrast to Mario who can have two but has one by default): Even with those two customs, his neutral game is still poor, and ultimately it boils down more to stage than to the moves. If Mac gets Final Destination, he stands a solid chance (relatively, for such a painfully polar character). If DK gets Battlefield, it's probably very close to 80-20 or worse against Mac.

Of course, increasing stage variety and revising stage selection processes can help reduce the polarity of such a matchup. But that's not related to the customs, that's just an issue with Mac and our current stage processes.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I would say I support customs, simply because characters like Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer get a shot for once. But the biggest challenge is still the organization of customs-on play; how will TOs handle their use? Where do they fit into counterpicking? Which sets to we use? What about players who use non-standard sets? These questions have been answered somewhat, but now that EVO isn't looming over our heads, perhaps it's time to go more in-depth with our answers. Amazing Ampharos did a great job with his collection of standard sets, but maybe we should do another round at some point? There were a couple of Pac Man players bemoaning the fact that none of the EVO sets used default Trampoline, and some of the Standard Custom Moveset threads I looked at weren't very responsive, so the sets might need an update. Perhaps with the guidance/input of top players of each character? Just a thought, I realize that may be very hard to organize.

Good news is it looks like it's already being done. AA's project was never meant to end with just Evo and if I'm not mistaken the plan is to discuss a new revision of about 8 sets per character, with 2 slots open for non-standard sets (the reason all 10 were filled is because Evo didn't want people importing sets/potentially cheating I guess). I also know there was already talk with some top players about other favored custom sets, and hopefully now that we've seen that customs "aren't too jank" we can keep moving forward with it.

 

[[Deuce]]

Why must we continue with the custom moveset project? Wasn't this from the beginning supposed to be a temporary solution to the problem that all wii u's should eventually have all customs unlocked? It's almost been a goddamn year since the games' been out. If people haven't unlocked practically all of them by now, especially in preparation for the largest tournament of the year, they're likely NEVER going to unlock them.

 

[warionumbah2]

In my experience, High-Speed Drill is pretty awesome, since most people don't end up using regular drill much anyway. Especially in the Rosalina matchup, in my limited experience, it basically guarantees a Luma kill when used toward an edge.

MK becomes so weak in customs its pretty demoralising, everyone gets better while he stays the same. Nothing can be done about it. Now that EVO is over there'll most likely be more default tourneys and any logical MK will go to the default scene, I don't expect to see any MKs in custom events anymore.

HSD isn't that good, you cannot control the angle, bounces off the ledge and its basically a SD button. Its only useful against custom rosa but he does well against her anyway so why does it matter? Not many people main her anyway so who cares when you got piercing needle camping sheiks and HSD sonics. Drill rush is far better than HSD, some(alot) characters cannot challenge it off stage or else they die.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Why must we continue with the custom moveset project? Wasn't this from the beginning supposed to be a temporary solution to the problem that all wii u's should eventually have all customs unlocked? It's almost been a goddamn year since the games' been out. If people haven't unlocked practically all of them by now, especially in preparation for the largest tournament of the year, they're likely NEVER going to unlock them.

TO's don't own a single copy of the game. They own dozens. Do you feel like unlocking every custom on a dozen consoles, ever?

The Custom Moveset Project isn't 'temporary', and never will be. But picking exclusively the best moves and not the best combinations is detrimental to its health.

"What are the best combinations?" I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. That's probably the biggest problem right now!

 

[Raijinken]

MK becomes so weak in customs its pretty demoralising, everyone gets better while he stays the same. Nothing can be done about it. Now that EVO is over there'll most likely be more default tourneys and any logical MK will go to the default scene, I don't expect to see any MKs in custom events anymore.

HSD isn't that good, you cannot control the angle, bounces off the ledge and its basically a SD button. Its only useful against custom rosa but he does well against her anyway so why does it matter? Not many people main her anyway so who cares when you got piercing needle camping sheiks and HSD sonics. Drill rush is far better than HSD, some(alot) characters cannot challenge it off stage or else they die.

I'd counter the "not many people main her anyway" argument with the exact same statement about Metaknight. At any rate, I rarely see Metaknights use any form of Drill Rush, period, for anything. I'd like to be wrong, and by all means please link me some vids so I can see some more Metaknight play in either environment. But supporting a scene strictly because your favorite character is less-not-top-tier-anyway is showing pretty weak support for the game in general. I guess the question is: If everyone's "best" custom loadout were coded in as default and there's nothing you could do about it, what would you do? Drop Metaknight? Drop Smash? Stick with Metaknight and complain that he's not that good? Or just keep playing and trying to develop his metagame while hoping he gets patched?

TO's don't own a single copy of the game. They own dozens. Do you feel like unlocking every custom on a dozen consoles, ever?

The Custom Moveset Project isn't 'temporary', and never will be. But picking exclusively the best moves and not the best combinations is detrimental to its health.

"What are the best combinations?" I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. That's probably the biggest problem right now!

And that's why we should keep searching instead of deliberately ignoring a ton of potential options for the entire cast.

And while I was personally fine with unlocking every custom on two and a half copies of the game, it literally only takes one copy on the 3DS to give an entire tournament access to every moveset.

Why must we continue with the custom moveset project? Wasn't this from the beginning supposed to be a temporary solution to the problem that all wii u's should eventually have all customs unlocked? It's almost been a goddamn year since the games' been out. If people haven't unlocked practically all of them by now, especially in preparation for the largest tournament of the year, they're likely NEVER going to unlock them.

The CMP is a gradual-revision solution until the day Sakurai (or a modder, perhaps) changes the character selection process to allow players to input their custom moves at the time of character selection, or until the community as a whole decides to ditch customs. Until then, it gives all TOs a reference point for implementing custom moves, just like stage selection or any other ruleset component involving picking. But see above for the unlock solution (which the project addresses).

 

[warionumbah2]

I'd counter the "not many people main her anyway" argument with the exact same statement about Metaknight.

What would you accomplish saying that? He has little representation, I can only name 2 high level MKs in the world, the rest are either good but not note worthy or straight up terrible.

At any rate, I rarely see Metaknights use any form of Drill Rush, period, for anything

Then you haven't watched a MK play, period, at any level of play.

I'd like to be wrong, and by all means please link me some vids so I can see some more Metaknight play in either environment.

Just watch any of the videos on the page http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-video-compilation-critique-thread.371317/page-7

But supporting a scene strictly because your favorite character is less-not-top-tier-anyway is showing pretty weak support for the game in general.

MK main got 17th at EVO, so its not like he isn't viable but he performs so much worse in that meta. Right now I don't care about customs anymore so im not supporting either side thank you. However its a given that MK users won't bother with the custom meta unless they have to (big event or their local scene does customs).

I guess the question is: If everyone's "best" custom loadout were coded in as default and there's nothing you could do about it, what would you do? Drop Metaknight? Drop Smash? Stick with Metaknight and complain that he's not that good? Or just keep playing and trying to develop his metagame while hoping he gets patched?

Get a secondary, her names Sheik. Problem solved. Buffs and nerfs would be waaaaaaay different in this scenario anyway.

 

[ZarroTsu]

And that's why we should keep searching instead of deliberately ignoring a ton of potential options for the entire cast.

Well, the EVO sets were part of the testing stage. If we've learned none of these, then I don't know what to tell you.

We've seen which sets are so ludicrously powerful that they could/should be avoided, unless Nintendo turns around and fixes them (coughEBTcough), but that begs the question whether or not those sets should be re-evaluated, and if every other set actually needs to exist.

Similarly, as the OP brought up, ARE there sets that need to be run alongside Kong Cyclone, or does that move work so well on its own that the other options are needless? Can someone actually list them, and why, or is the only available answer a resounding "probably?", or "I dunno, but we shouldn't limit people!"

I think we should wipe the plate clean and figure out only the needed sets, based on strategy itself. If certain moves can be swapped, they can fill the leftovers if need-be. But I don't think every character actually requires all 10 slots being filled up, since there's only a handful that work. There's a difference between "the option is there" and redundant menu clutter.

 

[Raijinken]

Well, the EVO sets were part of the testing stage. If we've learned none of these, then I don't know what to tell you.

We've seen which sets are so ludicrously powerful that they could/should be avoided, unless Nintendo turns around and fixes them (coughEBTcough), but that begs the question whether or not those sets should be re-evaluated, and if every other set actually needs to exist.

Similarly, as the OP brought up, ARE there sets that need to be run alongside Kong Cyclone, or does that move work so well on its own that the other options are needless? Can someone actually list them, and why, or is the only available answer a resounding "probably?", or "I dunno, but we shouldn't limit people!"

I think we should wipe the plate clean and figure out only the needed sets, based on strategy itself. If certain moves can be swapped, they can fill the leftovers if need-be. But I don't think every character actually requires all 10 slots being filled up, since there's only a handful that work. There's a difference between "the option is there" and redundant menu clutter.

Actually, there isn't. If an option has a usable scenario, whatever that may be, then it's not redundant menu clutter (else the majority of the cast could be considered redundant menu clutter in a highly competitive environment).

I agree that we need to "wipe the slate clean" again and re-evaluate the sets. But until (or while) that's done, there needs to be a list for logistically-impaired tournaments to resort to. Basically, I think we're too early into custom exploration to definitively say "No one should run any UpB besides Kong Cyclone on DK" or anything of that sort. But, if the DK boards' participants decided that (as they did), then I don't think it's my job, as neither a project leader nor DK player, to suggest his moves need to be wiped and reevaluated from scratch.

In the long run, I think what you're saying is right. But I don't think we know enough yet to make those claims. The only reason the project is set up the way it is is because the menu requires us to have a finite list.

 

[blackghost]

At least one subset of the future of customs should acknowledge counter-pick scenarios.
It's a shame so many customs are straight up/downgrades and not simply side-grades (between all three) like they arguably should be.

Thats not really true i'd say 60-70 percent of the moves are really based on preference and a lot of the moves require quite a bit of chaarcter knowledge on where to utilize it.

Can we get past the argument point of "I play character X and (s)he doesn't bennefit so I dont want customs legal." Its a scrubby argument. Custom moves are about the game;s longevity anf health and whether it hurts or helps. Who all of us main doesn't imediatly factor into that dicussion.
And the last have we really learned what is "toxic" or is that term being abused like "jank." Everyone hates custom villager right? but EVERYONE sure watched the heck out of those matches. Same with ESAM and pikachu. I think that esam isstill the only pikachgu that even does remotely well at this point dont think sample size is large enough.
how to fight villager-
http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink/c/6680375
http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink/c/6680915