Post-EVO Customs Discussion: Brevity, Synergy, and Variety

[Raijinken]

Then you haven't watched a MK play, period, at any level of play.

Just watch any of the videos on the page http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-video-compilation-critique-thread.371317/page-7

Thanks for the vids. I do wish we'd see more skilled Metaknight play in general, he seems pretty solid.

That said, at least in the sets I watched, I'm pretty sure I saw exactly one (failed) Drill Rush. Maybe I just picked a bad selection, though. Still, I don't see him needing one over the other outside of certain matchups perhaps. His normals seem reliable enough to hold him through with sufficient player skill.

 

[blackghost]

Thanks for the vids. I do wish we'd see more skilled Metaknight play in general, he seems pretty solid.

That said, at least in the sets I watched, I'm pretty sure I saw exactly one (failed) Drill Rush. Maybe I just picked a bad selection, though. Still, I don't see him needing one over the other outside of certain matchups perhaps. His normals seem reliable enough to hold him through with sufficient player skill.

metaknight is fine only issue is probably weight. lightweights feel even easier to kill in in this game. MK has the ZSS kill combo off the top as well. the character is good just not a god like brawl.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'll just say off-stream I saw a lot of unusual sets picked. It's hard to remember them off-hand, but I definitely left feeling that using all the space was the right call.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I'll just say off-stream I saw a lot of unusual sets picked. It's hard to remember them off-hand, but I definitely left feeling that using all the space was the right call.

Are they available to give us their thoughts on said sets? Not to undermine you or them or anything, but there's a blurry line between "I had this neat strategy in mind" and "I dunno, they looked silly."

Of course on that note I wonder how many custom sets we should deliberately set aside for "silly" sets. Not necessarily practical moves, but ones that are hilarious to use/watch.

 

[blackghost]

Are they available to give us their thoughts on said sets? Not to undermine you or them or anything, but there's a blurry line between "I had this neat strategy in mind" and "I dunno, they looked silly."

Of course on that note I wonder how many custom sets we should deliberately set aside for "silly" sets. Not necessarily practical moves, but ones that are hilarious to use/watch.

We sould leave the space open for some sets that we see as wierdnow because who knpws what could happen in the future. Nintendo is nerfing and buffing custom moves. Saymario giant fireball gets less end lag or fire fang gets a tad more range. we should have these moves aailble to players that want them. The whole idea for the moves is flexability. as pro custom players we should encourage innovation and creativity because we all know the default only meta is the kiddie pool in comparision

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

As a player I can say right now that while kong cyclone is great, it's not all it's cracked up to be. There is a reason none of us made it to top 30 at EVO
The default up B is a much better approach and is better as an offensive tool. Over all though most DK's will go with the cyclone though.

As a player I get very little in the form of customs, besides guiding arrow. But then again was blessed with a better default set than . Is it really so unfair that got a better custom set than?...

I just want a metagame where we all get to play who we want how we want... Isn't that what we all want?

 

[GeneralLedge]

I just want a metagame where we all get to play who we want how we want... Isn't that what we all want?

Ultimately yes.

But we like holding tournaments too.

They don't mesh very well. Mechanics are at fault.

 

[Sodo]

I just want a metagame where we all get to play who we want how we want... Isn't that what we all want?

Yeah it would be ideal in a "Customs ON" environment to use a customized character, even if it's one that's not on the EVO set list. "Yeah, I want to use Exploding Popgun, so what!?"

Like @ GeneralLedge said though, the community worked within the parameters set before them and did a pretty good job. It would be cool to be able to use any set you wanted on the fly, but maybe that's a time that's not so far off.

 

[Raijinken]

Yeah it would be ideal in a "Customs ON" environment to use a customized character, even if it's one that's not on the EVO set list. "Yeah, I want to use Exploding Popgun, so what!?"

Like @ GeneralLedge said though, the community worked within the parameters set before them and did a pretty good job. It would be cool to be able to use any set you wanted on the fly, but maybe that's a time that's not so far off.

It'll take a lot of fan pressure on Sakurai to get a menu overhaul, which is what that'd feasibly take.

Or just tournaments realizing Smash takes longer than most fighting games and appropriately allocate the time to implement freeform customs the slower way (create and copy from a 3DS), or for regular events, unlock the customs manually. There are plenty of inelegant solutions while Sakurai sits on his party game menu layout.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

All this talk makes me want to try and host my own tournament... With black jack, and hookers lol jk (futurama reference). But really is this THAT hard? Get a few friends with their Wii U's, find a venue (this may be the difficult part). Advertise with smashboards and word of mouth. have all participants write in the custom sets they want to use with the top 10 for each characters get made. And presto!!! Fully functional local custom tourney.

If I'm missing something inform me. Because this seems way too simple for all this hubbub about time and confusion going into tournament organization....

 

[GeneralLedge]

Actually, not a bad idea for participants to let the TO know long in advance which customs they'd potentially use.

Problem still arises if there's, say, 11 megaman users who each have a unique variant with customs. Someone's gonna be the odd man out.

Granted I don't know if this has actually occurred yet.

 

[Astrofallz]

All this talk makes me want to try and host my own tournament... With black jack, and hookers lol jk (futurama reference). But really is this THAT hard? Get a few friends with their Wii U's, find a venue (this may be the difficult part). Advertise with smashboards and word of mouth. have all participants write in the custom sets they want to use with the top 10 for each characters get made. And presto!!! Fully functional local custom tourney.

If I'm missing something inform me. Because this seems way too simple for all this hubbub about time and confusion going into tournament organization....

The problem with this is when a Ganon player comes to the event. Ganon's customs can be picked by preference but also he can counterpick with his sets as well. Maybe after a game I want WDK over WizKick, or maybe I want Flame Choke over Flame Chain now or maybe I notice that I never really connect any of my command grabs and decide to go Flame Wave so that I can potentially get the kill when I do connect. Characters that get overall better from certain customs would work great with this plan because players would have the one set that they play that benefits their character and their playstyle. However, characters that can counterpick other characters and customs using their own customs (i.e. Ganon) would definitely not work because the player would feel limited or hope that the set he is looking for is among the sets sent in by every other Ganon player in the tourney.

 

[Astrofallz]

Sorry for double post but the two aren't exactly related.

This is a reply to the op. "Redundant" custom sets are in the eye of the beholder. Look at these pre-made sets for Ganon which 2122, 2222, 2322. Now someone could say they don't see the difference but for a Ganon player it could mean a huge difference in the matchup. Default grab which allows tech chasing, Command grab that can net the kill, or a multi-hitting attack that eats certain projectiles and continue. Limiting the number of sets just because some people don't see the difference would put a cap on the potential of some characters in the custom meta (i.e. Ganon).

I personally don't see anything wrong with the way customs were handled for EVO. Do I think the current sets should remain forever? Absolutely not. Months before the next "Customs On" major, a custom move project (will now be CMP for short) should be held where players can decide what and if some sets should be removed or adjusted. Pac players who were upset that default tramp wasn't in any of the custom sets then they should be vocal about it in the next CMP and suggest a set or a couple sets that should be adjusted to have default tramp in there.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Sorry for double post but the two aren't exactly related.

This is a reply to the op. "Redundant" custom sets are in the eye of the beholder. Look at these pre-made sets for Ganon which 2122, 2222, 2322. Now someone could say they don't see the difference but for a Ganon player it could mean a huge difference in the matchup. Default grab which allows tech chasing, Command grab that can net the kill, or a multi-hitting attack that eats certain projectiles and continue. Limiting the number of sets just because some people don't see the difference would put a cap on the potential of some characters in the custom meta (i.e. Ganon).

I personally don't see anything wrong with the way customs were handled for EVO. Do I think the current sets should remain forever? Absolutely not. Months before the next "Customs On" major, a custom move project (will now be CMP for short) should be held where players can decide what and if some sets should be removed or adjusted. Pac players who were upset that default tramp wasn't in any of the custom sets then they should be vocal about it in the next CMP and suggest a set or a couple sets that should be adjusted to have default tramp in there.

I'm really glad you brought this up because it's an important issue that needs discussion. This issue is not only on the TOs to make sure all the wanted sets are in, but I feel this issue falls more on the players and their character community's (Gannon players, DK players) to make sure they vocalize their needs or the TOs won't know. The Gannon players need to collectively decide which are the best 10 sets to use for any given map or matchup. I understand that some people won't get their desired set, but really when you have 10 do you really need more?... I can't imagine a character really needing more than that, BUT idk, I'm not a Gannon player. This just means that for smash 4 more than ever, we need to come together as a community and make some decisions if we are to ever be able to make customs work and expand the meta beyond the bland defaults.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm really glad you brought this up because it's an important issue that needs discussion. This issue is not only on the TOs to make sure all the wanted sets are in, but I feel this issue falls more on the players and their character community's (Gannon players, DK players) to make sure they vocalize their needs or the TOs won't know. The Gannon players need to collectively decide which are the best 10 sets to use for any given map or matchup. I understand that some people won't get their desired set, but really when you have 10 do you really need more?... I can't imagine a character really needing more than that, BUT idk, I'm not a Gannon player. This just means that for smash 4 more than ever, we need to come together as a community and make some decisions if we are to ever be able to make customs work and expand the meta beyond the bland defaults.

Miis got more than ten in the EVO edition of the moveset project. Gunner, I hear, is exceptionally versatile in what constitutes a usable set, and fortunately Miis are able to have 100 combined sets. I hear as far as other characters go, Kirby and Ike may be up there, too.

All this talk makes me want to try and host my own tournament... With black jack, and hookers lol jk (futurama reference). But really is this THAT hard? Get a few friends with their Wii U's, find a venue (this may be the difficult part). Advertise with smashboards and word of mouth. have all participants write in the custom sets they want to use with the top 10 for each characters get made. And presto!!! Fully functional local custom tourney.

If I'm missing something inform me. Because this seems way too simple for all this hubbub about time and confusion going into tournament organization....

Heck, I hosted a small (14-entrant) tournament at college, only advertised to a handful of friends, posted the ruleset in advance, and got five full setups without even begging or offering an entry discount (since there was no fee). I had to load customs to all of them from my 3DS, but I asked players during setup what sets they used, and prioritized those sets before dropping the rest of the project onto each console. Granted, most of the participants played default (the only sets I had to load were Lucario, Palutena, Ganondorf, Lucina, Rosalina, and Captain Falcon), but I think general character popularity in most groups ensures that anything short of a massive tournament (where it may be impossible to cater to such unless you have a poll open for a large amount of time ahead of time) will not have to realistically worry about exceeding the maximum setup limit for any given character. As-is, the most popular characters to compete with benefit relatively little from customs, so "no matter" how many Sheiks you get, you will probably not run out of slots. If your region is full of Kirby and Mii players, you may have issues, but it's quite unlikely.

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually, not a bad idea for participants to let the TO know long in advance which customs they'd potentially use.

Problem still arises if there's, say, 11 megaman users who each have a unique variant with customs. Someone's gonna be the odd man out.

Granted I don't know if this has actually occurred yet.

Not everybody runs just one set an entire tournament. Most characters have moves they'll switch out depending on the situation, like the aforementioned Dorf. Some characters have so many that they don't fit in the ten slots given.

 

[GeneralLedge]

This is a reply to the op. "Redundant" custom sets are in the eye of the beholder. Look at these pre-made sets for Ganon which 2122, 2222, 2322.

If that's outside the scope of redundancy, then that's fine.

I wonder if each of those side-B's work in equal synergy with the other three moves, however; or if there's a better alternative. I can understand His sword's tipper working well in conjunction with default Side-B as a chase tool, but does it work as well with the non-grab? Are there setups for it?

Some characters are weird cases, however. Ganon wants to run Dropkick for the ability to get in effectively, and I'd probably be hard pressed to find a Ganon who wouldn't want to run the insane kill potential of that custom Up-B.

I'll try to explain true redundancy better then:

If the sets on a character included,

1111
2111
2211
1211

Is having all four at once, required? Do all four change the dynamics of the character in such a way that each set could be considered unique? Or is it a player-preference argument?

At the end of the day, 'player-preference' will probably have to come last. In fact, they should probably be set aside for the original "last two slots for personal changes" thing that went around before EVO forced us to fill all ten sets.

And for Synergy,

Can anyone list a particular custom set they use, and explain a specific strategy for every custom move, and how that strategy is utilized in unison with every considered move, where an alternative custom could not be considered instead?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Are they available to give us their thoughts on said sets? Not to undermine you or them or anything, but there's a blurry line between "I had this neat strategy in mind" and "I dunno, they looked silly."

Of course on that note I wonder how many custom sets we should deliberately set aside for "silly" sets. Not necessarily practical moves, but ones that are hilarious to use/watch.

I actually don't know who in specific or even really remember the sets. I just remember having the experience walking around the room looking at random games of "wow, I didn't really think anyone would pick THAT set" quite a few times. That's probably not that helpful, but to me, it was just a sign that casting the widest possible net was the best strategy.

 

[Raijinken]

If that's outside the scope of redundancy, then that's fine.

I wonder if each of those side-B's work in equal synergy with the other three moves, however; or if there's a better alternative. I can understand His sword's tipper working well in conjunction with default Side-B as a chase tool, but does it work as well with the non-grab? Are there setups for it?

Some characters are weird cases, however. Ganon wants to run Dropkick for the ability to get in effectively, and I'd probably be hard pressed to find a Ganon who wouldn't want to run the insane kill potential of that custom Up-B.

I'll try to explain true redundancy better then:

If the sets on a character included,

1111
2111
2211
1211

Is having all four at once, required? Do all four change the dynamics of the character in such a way that each set could be considered unique? Or is it a player-preference argument?

At the end of the day, 'player-preference' will probably have to come last. In fact, they should probably be set aside for the original "last two slots for personal changes" thing that went around before EVO forced us to fill all ten sets.

And for Synergy,

Can anyone list a particular custom set they use, and explain a specific strategy for every custom move, and how that strategy is utilized in unison with every considered move, where an alternative custom could not be considered instead?

As Marth, I run 1123. Crescent Slash is a decent pseudokill move (compared to Dolphin Slash) that doesn't really sacrifice much of Marth's already-bad recovery. Iai Counter is generally just better than Counter. There are plenty of reasons to use those two specials, and even some occasions where I run Dashing Assault, but there isn't any synergy between them because Marth is not designed thus in Smash4.

For a more synergistic example, I use Hyper Monado Arts and Power Vision. Power Vision in Smash mode will kill most characters off a weak blow at 50% or less. Power Vision is, functionally, a straight upgrade, and to achieve the same levels of kill power, not even regular Monado Arts suffice.

Not one of my characters, but there's also a ton of obvious synergy between Superspeed and Lightweight for Palutena. Designed as she is, it's literally impossible for other moves to stand in their place.

 

[Astrofallz]

I'm really glad you brought this up because it's an important issue that needs discussion. This issue is not only on the TOs to make sure all the wanted sets are in, but I feel this issue falls more on the players and their character community's (Gannon players, DK players) to make sure they vocalize their needs or the TOs won't know. The Gannon players need to collectively decide which are the best 10 sets to use for any given map or matchup. I understand that some people won't get their desired set, but really when you have 10 do you really need more?... I can't imagine a character really needing more than that, BUT idk, I'm not a

If that's outside the scope of redundancy, then that's fine.

I wonder if each of those side-B's work in equal synergy with the other three moves, however; or if there's a better alternative. I can understand His sword's tipper working well in conjunction with default Side-B as a chase tool, but does it work as well with the non-grab? Are there setups for it?

Some characters are weird cases, however. Ganon wants to run Dropkick for the ability to get in effectively, and I'd probably be hard pressed to find a Ganon who wouldn't want to run the insane kill potential of that custom Up-B.

I'll try to explain true redundancy better then:

If the sets on a character included,

1111
2111
2211
1211

Is having all four at once, required? Do all four change the dynamics of the character in such a way that each set could be considered unique? Or is it a player-preference argument?

At the end of the day, 'player-preference' will probably have to come last. In fact, they should probably be set aside for the original "last two slots for personal changes" thing that went around before EVO forced us to fill all ten sets.

And for Synergy,

Can anyone list a particular custom set they use, and explain a specific strategy for every custom move, and how that strategy is utilized in unison with every considered move, where an alternative custom could not be considered instead?

I understand your point but it all comes down to the character. Sorry to use Ganon so much as an example but he is the only character with customs I play that pertains to my point. 2122, Warlock Blade (WB) is slightly faster and has a much longer range than Warlock Punch, now you sacrifice super armor and a little bit of damage but the pros of a punish with a deceptively long range that can net you the kill in a read situation outweighs the cons. Flame Choke, a command grab that sets up a tech chase situation or on specific characters has guaranteed follow-ups. Dark Fists (DF), a powerful 2 hit up-b that has a longer recovery range than Dark Dive and is a strong OoS option. WizDropKick (WDK), assists Ganon in getting in on characters especially ones with projectiles by just hopping over them and punishing the opponent with a boot to the face and has lower lag than WizKick. This is my current general custom set. Extends Ganon punish range (WB, DF, WDK, extends horizontal recovery range from above the stage (WDK), extends horizontal and vertical recovery range from below (DF) and still gives me an option to get through shields (Flame Choke).

Another popular set I use is 2322, Flame Choke is changed to Flame Chain but it makes a big difference. I no longer have a command grab so I can't get through shields, I don't have the ability to set up an easy tech chase situation and I don't have guaranteed follow ups but I can pressure their shield with Flame Chain since it is multi-hitting and pierces the opponent and also it can eat certain projectiles without clashing which gives me another way to punish projectile users if I'm too close for WDK to hit. These sets are similar but neither Flame Choke or Flame Chain has better synergy with the rest of the set because their jobs do not overlap with each other or the other customs in set.

 

[Takehiko]

To reduce the redundancy, that's what I was suggesting the fun act of naming custom sets. If you notice with MVC2, they named teams, and it made it something fun for the announcers to name off, but also I feel like that this could actually serve a better side for customs. With my Peach sets, I like to use a set called Drunk Peach that uses sleepy toad, Flying bomber, and Light turnips. With using nicknames like these, we can allow people to easily recognize which set is which due to the funny/descriptive name.


To add Brevity to the mix, we need each of the character players to actually test these moves out. I mean like to the limits. We need people to test them in multiple matches and Matchups, and record the data (everything can't be on the pro players shoulders) to find out what things are needed in certain match ups and which moves really aren't needed at all. That's going to depend on the players cause from a non peach player's eyes light turnip doesn't look to be that good of an option.
For synergy, this also comes back to the players in question to dig deep into the character and look into what things advance their character.

When this is gathered after months of testing then that's when we should start creating sets.

 

[TastyCarcass]

Palutena should always be allowed customs because they're even more integral to her than they are to the Miis.
She feels like a totally different character than without them. She becomes capable of rushdown and gains movement options with both superspeed and lightweight.

Arguably she was designed around these moves, as her frame data is so awful and all of her moves are extremely punishable. It makes sense for a character with this much movement is given bad lag on her moves, as otherwise it would be far too easy to camp with her.

A major piece of evidence that she was designed properly with these moves is the unused voice files for Kirby's neutral B on Palutena. Kirby could have absorbed heavenly light and explosive flame. Although some believe that this was simply because they had planned on Kirby being able to absorb custom moves, it clearly isn't the case, as no files like that exist for other characters.

Palutena changes so much with customs that she becomes an entirely different character, and one of the more fun ones in the game.

 

[GeneralLedge]

While your rant is probably well warranted, I'm not sure this is the topic for it. I'm not against customs, I'm just striving for sets to be reduced to a bare minimum -- not out of malice, but out of understanding. What sets do we truly need, versus which are simply 'nice to have'? If reduced to what we truly need, do customs become more inviting to the masses? etc.

I know Palu plays nice with lightweight and superspeed, and those are probably a part of her 'really need', but a question remains whether or not jumpglide/warp/autoreticle/explosiveflame all need individual variations on the lightweight/superspeed set. The question remains if Celestial Firework plays better with a certain set, and if superspeed is really a 'requirement' or not.

And ultimately, whether these sets could be narrowed down to two or three, instead of encompassing ten slots.

Current retaliations on these questions are "we want variety more" but I've yet to get focused answers to the questions I'm asking.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I can't speak for anyone but myself when answering those questions.

However, I would say that the biggest case for having lightweight is that her default down b, counter, is not only a move she shares with many other characters, but she also has objectively the worst one, both in hitbox size, knockback and frame data.

I will be very happy if that move alone were to be replaced with Lightweight. Counter is awful. I would go as far as saying that if you were only to have 3 sets, counter shouldn't be in any of them.

I'd say her up-bs warp and jumpglide are both very viable moves and I don't think it matters as dramatically. Same with her first two neutrals. For that reason, I wouldn't care if either are used. Jumpglide has been popular as a combo extender and because it allows you to hover at a good height for spacing a fair. Explosive flame has been used more too.

In answer to your question, lightweight changes everything and is incredibly important.
I'd rank super speed below that, but still very important. It's an interesting move, but fairly balanced as Palutena is vulnerable, it's unspamable and if the opponent DIs correctly after being hit to avoid follow ups, it only does 0.5% damage. This move changes Palutena massively, as it gives her an effective and safe on shield rushdown mixup.

The other moves are personal preference. I personally would be fine if they remained default. When I play her, I use autoreticle and warp anyway.

To make this more on topic, I think M2K not being at EVO was potentially disasterous for Palutena, as he was going to play her. Aerolink also placed 9th with her, which I'm very happy with, but I haven't been able to see any vods of him there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Palutena should always be allowed customs because they're even more integral to her than they are to the Miis.
She feels like a totally different character than without them. She becomes capable of rushdown and gains movement options with both superspeed and lightweight.

Arguably she was designed around these moves, as her frame data is so awful and all of her moves are extremely punishable. It makes sense for a character with this much movement is given bad lag on her moves, as otherwise it would be far too easy to camp with her.

A major piece of evidence that she was designed properly with these moves is the unused voice files for Kirby's neutral B on Palutena. Kirby could have absorbed heavenly light and explosive flame. Although some believe that this was simply because they had planned on Kirby being able to absorb custom moves, it clearly isn't the case, as no files like that exist for other characters.

Palutena changes so much with customs that she becomes an entirely different character, and one of the more fun ones in the game.

What other characters have customs that would warrant a different callout though? Remember that Palutena is the only non-Mii fighter where her specials change completely.

(That's still an interesting tidbit of information, BTW. I just don't think it constitutes conclusive evidence.)

 

[TastyCarcass]

What other characters have customs that would warrant a different callout though? Remember that Palutena is the only non-Mii fighter where her specials change completely.

(That's still an interesting tidbit of information, BTW. I just don't think it constitutes conclusive evidence.)

Honestly I don't think there are any, no one changes as much as that. The Miis get one godly move to combo, Ganondorf gets some Battlefield shenanigans with his custom down b, Villager becomes a ledgecamper and Bowser gets more movement, but that's about it.
The thing I'm saying isn't necessarily that characters don't get better with customs. It's that Palutena's entire frame data was designed with them in mind. Almost all of her moves are slow (her fastest is 7 frames) with long lag time, yet she's tall and a super light weight. Most of her moves, including her dash attack, also put her at a set momentum. This means that if you were to use them during lightweight, you'd still be punishable because you'd be at a slow, set speed during her attacks. There's a better explanation somewhere and I'll link it when I find it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Honestly I don't think there are any, no one changes as much as that. The Miis get one godly move to combo, Ganondorf gets some Battlefield shenanigans with his custom down b, Villager becomes a ledgecamper and Bowser gets more movement, but that's about it.
The thing I'm saying isn't necessarily that characters don't get better with customs. It's that Palutena's entire frame data was designed with them in mind. Almost all of her moves are slow (her fastest is 7 frames) with long lag time, yet she's tall and a super light weight. Most of her moves, including her dash attack, also put her at a set momentum. This means that if you were to use them during lightweight, you'd still be punishable because you'd be at a slow, set speed during her attacks. There's a better explanation somewhere and I'll link it when I find it.

You misunderstand. You mention Kirby having voice lines for Explosive Flame and Heavenly Light. Does any other character have a different voice line for one of their customs vs. their default?

 

[TastyCarcass]

Oh, sorry! I can't think of any. Stops it from being conclusive evidence really but I still think it's interesting.
http://orangerob.tumblr.com/post/100877071708/kirby-saying-the-english-versions-of-copy-moves

 

[LancerStaff]

You misunderstand. You mention Kirby having voice lines for Explosive Flame and Heavenly Light. Does any other character have a different voice line for one of their customs vs. their default?

Ness's PK Freeze which apparently necessitated redoing all his voice acting.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I honestly don't have a problem with allowing Palu to use customs in non-customs, but a lot of people would fall back on menu implications, because those are exceedingly easy to fall back on. The moment you enable customs for Palutena, anyone could pick any other character and their customs and sternly disagree to playing 1111, and the whole thing falls apart because someone's acting childish about it.

The ultimate way around this is deleting other character customs, but I can't fathom this being reasonable if a TO were hosting both customs-on and customs-off tournament factions. It takes a solid two hours to manually make 10 sets for every character on the roster. (Another point towards brevity, methinks.)

Miis on the other hand hold no such menu limit, and you can make presumably an infinite number of Miis, although you probably don't need more than two or three per class (since a lot of moves are either "too good" or "don't synergize well"). So when the argument for Miis boils down to "but Palu has all customs too" it's kind of a degenerate mess of players being less civil than reasonable (and attracted to strawmen).

Of course, this is the lowest denominator. And while I'd like to assume it would never actually happen (since physically being in a location means someone can throw you out of the building if you're acting like a ****head, no johns), it's still something a lot of people have grounds to argue back and forth. And it kinda sucks for everyone, if only because the select few who would do it can argue against it on the internet via cesspools like Reddit.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I'd say anyone being a jackass with other customs can simply be DQ'd, as they would if they picked an illegal stage.

I think that the biggest potential issue is online tournaments. I stood firmly against Anther's ladder not allowing customs in ranked matches, until I realised that it is not possible to prevent people from using equipment in them. This would be obvious in a local tournament however.

 

[erico9001]

Recently:

https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/627510121711562753
https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/627510873095966720
https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/627512631054614528
https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/627689467201982464
https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/628622492463169536

Later that day:

Youtuber Omni, European TO Marc Hagen, and other people against customs argue that allowing customs hurts Smash 4 by causing a rift, and continue to state that the solution is to only have a metagame where customs are not legal. However, perhaps it is the decision to RESTRICT CUSTOMS which is causing the more harm! It is well known that ZeRo won the major tournament EVO using 1111 – no customs – the entire time. So did many other players who did well. It is clear that people who do not wish to use the custom variants of moves in custom tournaments may do so. However, in a metagame which RESTRICTS customs, the customs users cannot play with their moves! Even if they do take the plunge and play without custom moves, the muscle memory and habits they formed with custom moves can now be a hindrance on their gameplay. As we saw Sheik, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, Ness, Sonic, and etc. all still doing very well at EVO, the characters which do well in the no customs metagame still do well with customs. On the other hand, many characters that are viable in the customs metagame are no longer so when customs are restricted. It is pretty clear who is at risk here.

I remind you that The Ultimate Smash 4 Ruleset Poll showed a large majority of people wanted custom moves to be on.
This thread, created after, EVO shows, while a few people switched sides from EVO, not many opinions changed as a result of it. The poll has been taken by over 500 people. Therefore, it is still the vast majority who want customs on. And, unlike people who do not use custom moves, the people who DO use custom moves are hurt by the apposing position.

Which decision has more risk of forcing players out of competitive play? We've lost m2k. Though, I think he will come back after this pushback we are seeing has ended. Anyways, more personally, I decided several days ago I'm not participating in anything which has customs banned. I've made many contributions to the Shulk metagame, and several involve custom moves. What a shame it would be if those were worthless. Furthermore, since in my opinion Shulk is only going to make it to high levels with customs on, all my other contributions sort of weigh on customs too. I only hope the right decision is made... by whoever makes decisions around here XD.