Possible Rulesets for Smash 4

[Raijinken]

I'm sure if we were to allow walk off stages that we would probably need to implement some sort of off screen stalling rule. like if one player is staying off-screen for a specific period of time (preferably 1 minute) it should be considered an act of stalling similar to what was done with going underneath stages using glides.

While if walk off end up being banned i won't be really upset but i do feel that it will hurt some of the cast and especially hurt Little Mac's potential given that he heavily relies on walk off stages to maximize his great ground game.

As for custom moves i think they should be legal. I doubt the process of changing specials will be too complicated to the point that it becomes something that's seen as a waste of time. Many times people have to apply their own custom controls and these could take some time, then we also have people to take forever doing "hand warmers" so i see the point of "it will take too long to change specials" point one of little merit to banning them. And while some custom specials seem to be very unorthodox, many seem to given characters unique options that can be used in specific matchups that they would otherwise struggle with without using them.

Custom moves also deepen the complexity of how every match could flow. Ditto MUs no longer could always be considered a Ditto as one player could be more comfortable using mario's alternate specials vs someone who prefers mario's standard ones. The positive impact custom moves could have on the metagame imo far outweigh the negatives of their inclusion. If anything removing custom moves from competitive play could lessen the overall depth the game has.

I've always been a fan of enforcing stalling rules anyway, seeing as the only thing a time limit does is open up the option to win by taking a one-stock lead and running away for the rest of the game. But it's possible to camp stationary even on a stage with ledges, and safer for the camper in that regard as well, so it's hard to draw a line between stalling and risk-reward camping.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

well if the opponent is just standing off screen waiting for a grab or just moving back and forth off screen for an extended period of time i'd consider that stalling.

 

[Sparklepower]

I don't know why hit stun is back and I never tried to argue that lack of combos meant more depth. the ability to make a choice, a MEANINGFUL choice with trade offs in any give situation equates to depth. But... now that you mention it...

(I'm going to do a ridiculously watered down version of this)
Melee's combo system (high hit stun)
Step 1: Attack
Step 2: can I follow up? if yes attack again and repeat step one. If no end.

Brawl's "combo" system (low hit stun)
Step 1: Attack
Step 2: Can I follow up? if yes continue to step 2a. If no end
Step 2a: Attack and risk attack getting beat by a special interrupt(step 2b) or getting attack air dodged(step 2c) or bait reaction step 3).
Step2b:Attack successful repeat step 1 if not take damage
Step2c:attack successful repeat step 2, if not take damage
Step 3: Did the opponent double jump?(step 3a) air dodge(step 3b) Aerial(step3c) do nothing(step3d)
etc etc.

So yes... there IS more depth because there are more choices both the attacker and the attackie are making after each successful hit. But some times people don't want THAT MUCH depth in favor of the power fantasy of true comboing people, and THATS OKAY TOO.

Here's the problem with this 'watered down' version you've given us. Step 2a-3 all happen in melee as well under the event of being unable to follow-up, and the comboing in melee goes a lot farther than 'attack until I can't attack anymore.' This is why there's less depth by definition, because nothing was added, you're just relying more on what was already there.

I'm aware you didn't ever try to argue this, I was trying to draw a correlation to make my point.

talking to the wrong guy I'd LOVE to have big blue legal. Seriously. I'm pro items too.

That's an interesting opinion, but at least I can't call you hypocritical. Just out of curiosity, how much are you expecting the smash 4 ruleset to go? Regardless of what you think should be allowed in a tournament setting, what do you think the tournament hosters are going to decide as far as their ruleset, and why do you think they're going to make those opinions?

Unfortunately just saying something adds depth doesn't mean it adds depth. Getting a hit and then following up on that hit isn't depth by itself. But thats what your article is saying. Following up while your opponent is in hit stun is always the better option in melee. Just like L canceling is ALWAYS the best option not L canceling is a worse version of L canceling. there is no reason to ever pick that option so... it may as well not be there in depth's eyes.

Refer to TheMagicalKuja's point. I personally still don't think L-cancelling should be in smash 4, but I think that post made a good point how it does, by definition, add depth. Hit stun added depth because you had to set up the follow-up, not all moves could follow up on each other, and you had to know what was going to follow up based on your character's moveset, your opponent's character's weight and fall speed, and your opponent's ability to DI.

I'm going to drop this comparison, because there isn't a point to bringing a Melee vs Brawl argument. Here's my argument:

On a normal stage (without a walk-off), there's a horizontal threshold that you must bring your opponent over in order for a kill to be possible (excluding star KOs, but that's constant in all situations so I'm going to ignore it). The off-stage point, where there's no longer ground to be under. Normally, once your opponent is over that horizontal threshold, they are in danger because they have to come back in order to keep their stock. This is where recovery and edgeguarding comes into play, a major part of the game.

With a walk-off, this horizontal threshold is now at the blast line. Being over it is now literally defined as being dead. So before where you had to knock them off-stage, and keep them off-stage, any knock off-stage is a kill period. Edgeguarding and recovery is now gone. This is why there is, by definition, less depth.

That's gerudo valley. Even the commentators say "yeah you can stand by the edge but its a trade off" they go on to explain what I've been trying to tell you in that match and then the following one. Thats also the match that someone was point out to you where bowser was back throwing at the egde of the screen and not getting KOs. Go to 48:30 in the video.

You originally quoted me when I said that knocking someone off-stage is immediate death, where that video clip does nothing to disprove my argument.
But since this is the point you're trying to make..
.

Not at 48:30. It's actually at 55:30. Dunno how you messed that up, but that's why he was confused. A little before that, you'll also see just how much space there is off-screen before the blast zone on Gerudo Valley.

Edit: 56:43 drags the point home even further. Bowser actually gets the red lightning effect on that back throw while hanging out near the blast line and still no KO. And we see that if spaced properly, Bowser's FSmash causes enough shield-push to be safe on shield. The opponent goes for the shield-grab and does not get it.

Double Edit: Looks like Sheik's dash attack causes just enough shield-stun to be "safe" on shield if you get up really close and personal before you launch it, since she passes right through them. And by safe, I mean she can't get grabbed. But some characters could probably just FTilt or DSmash out of shield and whack her.

Triple Edit: On a completely unrelated note (except for that video), Bowser has passive armour in his idle stance! Either that or has ridiculously high weight and armour on his jab. He just keeps jabbing or rolling right out of Toon Link's grounded Spin Attack. It looks like he actually gets flinched, though, so maybe he's just so heavy that TLink's USpecial doesn't combo. That's a scary thought.

I'll actually admit, that's a fairly compelling towards the camping issue. But I still feel that the walk-off introduces too many issues through the removal of the recovery and edgeguarding aspect of the game, and giving far too much of an advantage to heavier characters.

I suppose we could develop a metagame around being able to play blindly off-screen to avoid that, but then the original problem would become too much of an issue again.

You'll love this: By this logic Items should be on because taking them away removes options.

Items being off removing options is... factually correct. However, you have to consider what options we want in this game, what kind of depth that we want to have. In the case of items, it brings too much RNG into the game to be considered. I got a legendary out of my Pokeball? Awesome, I just got a stock.

Items are a mechanic that disrupts the match. I'll say this again: The purpose of a tournament ruleset is to create an environment where all matches are fair and the players can prove who is the better player.

Seriously though, out of curiosity, have you played brawl competitively? I know some awesome guys in near you that could teach you all the ins and outs of the game. It is read heavy but there actually are a lot of true combos and stuff they are just way more technical (knowing values, move decay, etc.) and situational (You need to have certain move decays against certain opponents while they are at certain percents)
If you like combos in melee you'd probably like brawl sheik. My buddy started picking her up and I could get you guys connected if you were interested.

I honestly haven't played Brawl competitively since about 2009. I still lived in Raleigh NC and I had friends who were into it at the time, but I started to get tired of it. I personally didn't become very interested in Brawl for reasons beyond its style of competitive play.

I'm not very interested, I appreciate the offer, though. I don't agree with your opinion on this matter, but you seem like a nice person.

 

[Raijinken]

Items being off removing options is... factually correct. However, you have to consider what options we want in this game, what kind of depth that we want to have. In the case of items, it brings too much RNG into the game to be considered. I got a legendary out of my Pokeball? Awesome, I just got a stock.

I'm personally interested in limited item lists that include no summons, containers, explosives, or transformative items (invincibility etc). This reduces the RNG to strictly what items spawn, and turns that into an advantage and tradeoff of stage control instead of pure luck of the Pokeball. Furthermore, in PM/Brawl/Melee terms, it opens up Glide Tossing and variations to characters who cannot manufacture their own items, and changes the approach and defensive game, as an item in hand makes any approach riskier while limiting the holder's own options as well.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm personally interested in limited item lists that include no summons, containers, explosives, or transformative items (invincibility etc). This reduces the RNG to strictly what items spawn, and turns that into an advantage and tradeoff of stage control instead of pure luck of the Pokeball. Furthermore, in PM/Brawl/Melee terms, it opens up Glide Tossing and variations to characters who cannot manufacture their own items, and changes the approach and defensive game, as an item in hand makes any approach riskier while limiting the holder's own options as well.

The problem is that when you turn off all the gamebreaking items, the only ones that are left are the boring ones.

Oh wow, a food item spawned, time to regain 5% health! And look at this! Eat smoke ball! *Pssshhhh*


You probably still can't turn off exploding capsules anyway.

 

[pants name guy]

Since apparently depth means having more options, and custom specials adds 3 times the options, can we allow custom specials? Please?

What do you guys think we're going to do about all the FDs? If your opponent picks FD, will they be able to take you to any FD they want? Or if there happened to be enough differences between FDs that it affects the matchup significantly, should we have one or more specific FD bans? Like, let's say I ban Reset Bomb Forest and my opponent picks FD. I'm normally okay with FD, except the 3D Land FD just happens to be completely terrible for me. Should I be able to ban 3D Land FD after he counterpicks FD?


Is your buddy Player-3? I know he plays Sheik and lives close to you.

I think an ideal situation (since they are shown ro functionally vary with size, walls, shape, etc.) would only allow the original FD in starter stages, but to allow all of them as counterpicks but have it so they are all considered the same stage. That way you can never play on any FD variants for game 1, but the losing player can counterpick to any of them once, and the winning player can stage ban all of them.

 

[Terotrous]

I think an ideal situation (since they are shown ro functionally vary with size, walls, shape, etc.)

Source for this? I found this:

http://www.smashbros.com/us/images/3ds/gamemode/entry1-3.jpg

Which looks like they're all totally identical.

 

[pants name guy]

Source for this? I found this:

http://www.smashbros.com/us/images/3ds/gamemode/entry1-3.jpg

Which looks like they're all totally identical.

I wasn't sure and still can't really tell from the picture about size (this also only shows six of them), but the underside of the stage is different for all of these. It's not much (we don't have melee wall grapples or gliding anymore), but it changes quite a few things. The existence of walls, for example, or the curvature of those walls, changes possibility of wall-jumping as a form of recovery and teching out of off-stage hits. Wall-jumping isn't that common, I admit, but teching is certainly significant. Certain characters (namely jiggs) will still be able to pass under the stage with relative ease and in little time, increasing recovery options on stages without walls. We also don't know about blast lines, so I'll wait until the game is released before saying anything else. I don't think I can say yet that they are significantly different enough to not be the same stage, but there are certainly functional differences.

 

[Raijinken]

The problem is that when you turn off all the gamebreaking items, the only ones that are left are the boring ones.

Oh wow, a food item spawned, time to regain 5% health! And look at this! Eat smoke ball! *Pssshhhh*


You probably still can't turn off exploding capsules anyway.

Even if you keep only the "boring" ones set to low, that's more variety than none. Leave on things like the Beam Sword, Bat, Ray Gun, Banana (level the field against Diddy's nonsense), Fire Flower, and so on. They provide some versatility to movesets, and while not nearly as fun as a giant Deoxys beam, they're normally considered a bit more balanced and less prone to random behavior.

Alternately, for Smash4, leave on Master Balls, since they're guaranteed a legendary.

 

[Terotrous]

I wasn't sure and still can't really tell from the picture about size (this also only shows six of them), but the underside of the stage is different for all of these.

I suppose that's true. One of the stages looks like you can shark, which is significant for sure.

Even if you keep only the "boring" ones set to low, that's more variety than none. Leave on things like the Beam Sword, Bat, Ray Gun, Banana (level the field against Diddy's nonsense), Fire Flower, and so on. They provide some versatility to movesets, and while not nearly as fun as a giant Deoxys beam, they're normally considered a bit more balanced and less prone to random behavior.

Alternately, for Smash4, leave on Master Balls, since they're guaranteed a legendary.

I think Bat and Ray Gun might also have to go. Bat is ludicrously powerful as a throwing item, almost on par with a bomb. In previous games, if timed properly, Ray Gun can take off a stock in one hit because it keeps comboing into itself. Even Bananas could be a problem if they were common, since they're so amazing for pressure.

Ultimately I see almost no way the competitive community will allow items to be on, no matter which ones you allow it results in a random situation that changes the flow of the battle. If we allow any items that give the person holding them an advantage, then a lucky item spawn will always have the potential to decide a close match and most people hate that.

 

[<π]

I plan on RUNNING tournaments, so what I say will be going I guess. I'll probably run an items on tournament (for fun) and a more conservative ruleset with items off and a slimmer stage list (for glory) as well either side by side or seperately.

I want to encourage as many people to come out as possible and will be aiming it at lil babies that are my kids age(8-12) all the way up to their parents age, there will be a door fee but you will get something just for coming (a shirt, a button, something). And there will be a wider spread of prizes, and more opportunities to play.
I've watch for YEARS almost a decade as the tourney experience has become one that appeals to fewer and fewer fans of the game. I think that's a problem that can be solved and result in much larger much more supportive and involved community.

 

[<π]

Is your buddy Player-3? I know he plays Sheik and lives close to you.

Nah, I don't really know any of the smashers up here in GA. I spent most of my smash career in CFL and moved here with my wife 2 or 3 years ago after I dating my her for about year. My buddy is actually a fox main who plays a little sheik on the side. @Virgman

(though I though Player-3 played someone else, I thought knew pretty much all the brawl sheiks in the country)

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Ultimately I see almost no way the competitive community will allow items to be on, no matter which ones you allow it results in a random situation that changes the flow of the battle. If we allow any items that give the person holding them an advantage, then a lucky item spawn will always have the potential to decide a close match and most people hate that.

While traditional tourneys are too big in scope for this to work, I do believe it's been mentioned in other topics that Round Robins reduce luck screwing over people in competitions. It would work wonderfully for the 3DS version. I refer to the Extra Credits video "Randomness and E-sports".

Also exploding capsules being unable to be switched off was... melee exclusive. Brawl didn't have that issue and I doubt Smash 4 does.