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Possible changes for Link (To celebrate 3.6 being announced)

GarmWyrda

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Oh I would love a little tiny thing, maybe it's only me but it always bothered me :

when on the ledge the getup attack doesn't hit your opponent if he stands too close of the edge... It bothered way too much than it should...

maybe adding a tiny hitbox right where we stand.. idk, just hitting right in front of us wouldn't be silly...
 
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EmptySky00

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Please fix this ****ing Utilt. There have been far too many versions to not have stuff like this polished out by now.
 
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Shin_Mazinkaiser

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One thing I would like to add to all this that I forgot to include in the OP:

Link's grab should be able to grab airborne opponents who are lined up the claw-shot.

It's really annoying that the answer to grab setups a lot of the time is to simply short hop in Link's face.

Samus can do it, why not Link? Just an idea.
 
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link7

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I'd love to have the Melee tether recovery in PM. Grab anywhere, longer distance, would be awesome.
 

Thor

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One thing I would like to add to all this that I forgot to include in the OP:

Link's grab should be able to grab airborne opponents who are lined up the claw-shot.

It's really annoying that the answer to grab setups a lot of the time is to simply short hop in Link's face.

Samus can do it, why not Link? Just an idea.
I forgot to mention this. I'd love it so much if tethers could grab out of the air - it worked in 64 and we've taken other stuff from 64 [Ness dair] so why not make Link's grab suck slightly less?
 

Beorn

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I forgot to mention this. I'd love it so much if tethers could grab out of the air - it worked in 64 and we've taken other stuff from 64 [Ness dair] so why not make Link's grab suck slightly less?
I would have mentioned this but, he can already chain throw so many characters... The problem with making his grab better is that his throws are already really good. You can Dthrow Jab regrab so many characters.

I would be up for making the hand grab box bigger or using the bigger grab box that currently exists around his hand to grab airborne opponents.
 
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Thor

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I would have mentioned this but, he can already chain throw so many characters... The problem with making his grab better is that his throws are already really good. You can Dthrow Jab regrab so many characters.

I would be up for making the hand grab box bigger or using the bigger grab box that currently exists around his hand to grab airborne opponents.
He can still CG people? Was this something in Melee that was just hard to do or what?

Dthrow jab regrab works if they miss the tech, and tech-chase regrabbing is hardly broken in PM [or if it is, Sheik, Marth, Captain Falcon, fix PMBR plz].

Also Link is CG'd by others as well, and Link's penalty for whiffing a CG is far higher.

Maybe make it that you can only grab aerial opponents if they aren't in tumble? That'd fix the CG issue [though I still think it's hardly an issue] and still allow his grab to not suck as much.
 

Beorn

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He can still CG people? Was this something in Melee that was just hard to do or what?

Dthrow jab regrab works if they miss the tech, and tech-chase regrabbing is hardly broken in PM [or if it is, Sheik, Marth, Captain Falcon, fix PMBR plz].

Also Link is CG'd by others as well, and Link's penalty for whiffing a CG is far higher.

Maybe make it that you can only grab aerial opponents if they aren't in tumble? That'd fix the CG issue [though I still think it's hardly an issue] and still allow his grab to not suck as much.
The Jab takes them out of tumble so instead of teching they just hard land. Which you can regrab and d-throw again.

I would have agreed with you about links tether not grabbing airborne opponents earlier, but his grabs are really just quite good. I do, again, think that the larger grabbubble on his hand should grab airborne enemies though.
 

Thor

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The Jab takes them out of tumble so instead of teching they just hard land. Which you can regrab and d-throw again.

I would have agreed with you about links tether not grabbing airborne opponents earlier, but his grabs are really just quite good. I do, again, think that the larger grabbubble on his hand should grab airborne enemies though.
Unless that's frame perfect or your airgrabbing, they can most assuredly SDI down+buffer roll or spotdodge to escape. I know I've buffered roll/spotdodge to avoid that sort of thing.

I still think it should grab airborne opponents, since it makes grab just that little bit less awful when you and another person are shielding in each other's faces. Other characters also possess good grab games, but without the downsides of LInk's grab [see Sheik, Marth, Falcon, Ike, Fox, Ganondorf, Yoshi for starters, and I'd argue Charizard as well (not necessarily on Link's level, but I'd take 'Zard's grab game for the safety of his grab)].
 
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Beorn

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Unless that's frame perfect or your airgrabbing, they can most assuredly SDI down+buffer roll or spotdodge to escape. I know I've buffered roll/spotdodge to avoid that sort of thing.

I still think it should grab airborne opponents, since it makes grab just that little bit less awful when you and another person are shielding in each other's faces. Other characters also possess good grab games, but without the downsides of LInk's grab [see Sheik, Marth, Falcon, Ike, Fox, Ganondorf, Yoshi for starters, and I'd argue Charizard as well (not necessarily on Link's level, but I'd take 'Zard's grab game for the safety of his grab)].
There are things you can do to avoid it. It's not free, like most things in smashbros. It's heavily weight dependent, but link has options out of jab 1 to react with if they do sdi down or away. It's still very useful even if you can't get the regrab because of weight or reaction.

Hey you are preaching to the choir. I would love for Link to have a better grab, but with the changes I've already proposed and his current moveset, I don't think he absolutely needs for his tether to grab out of the air. He isn't complete trash as it is, and this would be a pretty huge buff.
 

MTGEL33T

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It doesn't affect gameplay, but I'd love to see a Fierce Deity skin added in at some point.
 

Beorn

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So... now that we've discussed what we want... anyone have any idea as to what actually is realistically likely?
Honesty, I'm not expecting him to get much of anything. There have been a couple of Links do well in big tournaments recently.

I expect something very small if he gets anything at all.
 

Shin_Mazinkaiser

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I would have mentioned this but, he can already chain throw so many characters... The problem with making his grab better is that his throws are already really good. You can Dthrow Jab regrab so many characters.

I would be up for making the hand grab box bigger or using the bigger grab box that currently exists around his hand to grab airborne opponents.
While I like the idea of make the hand box bigger ( I love the idea. ) I have never seen a chain grab with Link.

PLEASE show me footage of a chain grab with Link. I need to see this.
 

Shin_Mazinkaiser

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I'd love to have the Melee tether recovery in PM. Grab anywhere, longer distance, would be awesome.
Iirc, the ONLY reason Link/Samus don't have this is because of the inability to program the mechanic into PM.

I hope a DT guy corrects me if I'm wrong tho lol.
 

Thor

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He can chain grab fox with up throw, till like 40%.
I've seen Samus CG Meta Knight in 3.02 with dthrow, and it wasn't due to missing techs. I think Samus can grab out of the air???

Also I'm almost positive Fox can buffer roll or shine out of that so-called "chaingrab" - I can't even dsmash them until like 20% [uthrow dsmash doesn't work if read I'm doing it from what I've seen] and dsmash is faster than grab.
 

Mr.Pickle

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So from the perspective of someone that fights against link quite a bit more than actually playing him, I've come up with some stuff that I think he needs (well mostly I just agree with stuff already posted).

Fixing uair hit bubble - I thought I fixed this ages ago in like 2.6 or something, but it seems it was overlooked for a very long time. There is absolutely no reason why this should still be a thing, especially considering that all the other hitbox fixes were implemented. I've heard interpolation as a counter argument to this fix, to which I say, move your cursor from link to the right one character space, pick that character, then use uair, and notice it's the same exact move with full coverage of his sword, then try to still have that argument against it.

Faster jab - Not much to say here, it comes out on frame 6, but that part is never going to hit anyone. So really it's a frame 7 jab, which is pretty not great, frame 5 would be a reasonable fast move for him.

Faster utilt - Same as jab only not as important or as obvious, keep the damage and endlag nerf, they're pretty fair. Making it faster gives an incentive to use it over usmash.

Ftilt being useful - It's unanimous, ftilt is a terrible move, and it does absolutely nothing useful except giving you another reason to pick a better character. Making it hit at lower angle is the most sensible fix, as he has no moves that hit at low angles, except the lasting hitbox on spin attack, but be honest, you're not hitting a good player with that usually. Though I imagine they'll just add some extra kb to it and call it a day.

Nair increase in damage - It's a little underwhelming atm, I wouldn't put it in wet noodle status, but it's close. I could see a 1% increase, maybe 2%, but a 12% damage nair is the standard I believe. With 12% nair he'd actually kill things off stage instead of pretending he could.

Now that's all the stuff that most everyone agrees on, so let's begin on some stuff that might be questionable.

Added percent on up b - Debatable on how much, but giving link another chance to bomb jump or being able to use it offensively once without sacrificing his bomb jump, is pretty big imo. Currently its pretty easy to steam roll through his recovery, but with an extra bomb jump, he'll have more than one shot at cheesing his way to recovering. His recovery options should still be fairly easy to hit him out of, otherwise his recovery would be back in 3.02 status.

Usmash nerf buff - Now this is something that will probably cause some disagreements, but usmash currently, imo, is better than utilt in pretty much every regard that means something, and the only way to differentiate the two is to make usmash a kill move, instead of a combo forever move. With the added kill power though, it'd have to have a little more endlag to balance it out and give more weight to the move. The extent of which, I wouldn't be sure of, but it wouldn't be too extreme, 2 or 3 less IASA most likely. The amount of kill power is something that's debatable as well, testing would have to be done to get a reasonable value.

Bomb adjustments - (limited knowledge on bombs so keep that in mind) I've heard from mostly empty sky on here that bomb distance sucks, and Beorn tells me all the time that he likes them, so it makes me want to ask, why not both? Since the distance is shorter in this version, you could have the shorter distance on a regular toss, and then have the previous longer distance toss when you smash the control stick. I'm usually not one to advocate having the best of two in one move *cough cough mario fair cough*, but pulling a bomb has hella commitment, adding more versatility to it's throw distance doesn't sound game breaking

And now the thing that no one except maybe Beorn will agree on.

Boomerang nerf buff - Now before you jump on my case about boomerang being not over centralizing and link needing it, ask yourself this, what's been the one constant issue for balance concerning him in almost every update? Whats the reason people think he's so good? Why do people hate him?....the answer is always boomerang. It's been done over and over, and the results have shown that every time the speed he throws it increases, the cool down decreases, or the angle changes (sometimes all the above) he instantly breaks into a dumb character. Link has too many projectiles and options to cover space for boomerang to work the way it does, that's why so many people hate him and call him bullet hell the character. Notice also how toonlink's boomerang comes out on frame 27 and it's just fine, lol 19% though. So nerfing the speed it comes out and buffing the % it does would make it's usage more thought provoking, net a fat % while limiting their options, and covering your poorish movement, sounds like a win win to me.

I'd post rando buff or something I thought of at the end, but I've spent enough time on this already. I could've made it shorter by just saying I agree with beorn, but there are a couple of differences here and there, so might as well type it all out. I really hope the pmdv takes a look at some of this and takes at least half of this into consideration. If not, I'd be extremely disappointed in how they're handling this character, but that's kinda been the same song and dance it's been for most of this game's development, so I guess that wouldn't be anything new. Sorry for the huge wall of text btw, I've been kinda inactive lately and had to make up for it. Feel free to agree or disagree, I'm not a link main or anything, but I like the character.
 

Problem2

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Just make b-air appropriately like it does in Melee (but keep the autocancel it has in PM. I like that! :) )

and uh... make the trajectory, base knock back, and knock back growth of the bombs match Melee too. They were very useful combo tools in Melee, but for some reason, we have yet to see them behave like Melee in PM. PMDT seems to use that reasoning a lot for stuff that's not helping us, may as well use it for something that will.
 

Thor

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Just make b-air appropriately like it does in Melee (but keep the autocancel it has in PM. I like that! :) )

and uh... make the trajectory, base knock back, and knock back growth of the bombs match Melee too. They were very useful combo tools in Melee, but for some reason, we have yet to see them behave like Melee in PM. PMDT seems to use that reasoning a lot for stuff that's not helping us, may as well use it for something that will.
It autocancelled in Melee.

I have thoughts on Pickle's post but I'm super tired and was just checking to see if anything happened. Clearly stuff did.

Bombs are fine. I find it easiest to combo into them from z-drops or glide tossing one way while throwing them down, or else covering a tech option and going from there [I've landed bomb -> zair while fullhoping onto a platform -> dair/uair a few times, it doesn't work if they DI zair well but you still regain stage control or press positional advantage.]
 

Problem2

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The bombs as is are definitely decent and you can do some combos at certain percents, but the Melee bombs combo far more consistently. Ever since the angle change on boomerang's knock back, I feel like there is a disconnect between his projectile game and his combo game. Maybe that's what PMDT wants, but to me, Link's keep away isn't so good to warrant trying to win by bomb kills 4 times. (that last statement is an exaggeration)
 
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Thor

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At this point, I know the changelog I'd like to see [having read over most the feedback] while also being possibly realistic...:

Jab1 speed: frmaes 6-7 [or maybe it's 6-8] -> 4-5 [or 4-6]
Utilt startup decreased 2 frames, 9->7, endlag unchanged
Usmash startup increased 2 frames, 10 ->12. (Perhaps KBG change, perhaps not.
Boomerang throw speed nerfed by X frames.

I'd like grab out of the air, I'd like some of the other ideas, but really, this would be enough to leave me happy with 3.6 Link.

One other change I came up with: Uair landing lag decreased 28->25 [L--cancelled 14 -> 12]. It'd still be like -3 on shield with the strong hit, but would leave Link a little more mobile in MUs he really needs it [vs Falcon, for instance].
 

Shin_Mazinkaiser

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At this point, I know the changelog I'd like to see [having read over most the feedback] while also being possibly realistic...:

Jab1 speed: frmaes 6-7 [or maybe it's 6-8] -> 4-5 [or 4-6]
Utilt startup decreased 2 frames, 9->7, endlag unchanged
Usmash startup increased 2 frames, 10 ->12. (Perhaps KBG change, perhaps not.
Boomerang throw speed nerfed by X frames.

I'd like grab out of the air, I'd like some of the other ideas, but really, this would be enough to leave me happy with 3.6 Link.

One other change I came up with: Uair landing lag decreased 28->25 [L--cancelled 14 -> 12]. It'd still be like -3 on shield with the strong hit, but would leave Link a little more mobile in MUs he really needs it [vs Falcon, for instance].
I promise you, Link's rang is not gonna get nerfed any more.
 

TheBigChew

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So I haven't read any comments in this thread yet, but I will as soon as I'm done posting this. First off id like to talk about his tilt attacks. I find his F-tilt to be very unused in my game. I find that it's start up lag, range and speed in general all need to be buffed for his f-tilt to be useful. The only time I actually use this move is when I mess up an input on my controller lol. His u-tilt hit box needs to be fixed. I remember Empty posting a YouTube video about it and him saying that his u-tilt was like this in melee and all other previous versions. I really like his D-tilt a lot, its probably my most used tilt in link's move set.. I have no complaints. Next id like to talk about his recovery options. So obviously I think we would all like link to have a better aerial up-b, but I really want a big change to his Z-air. First off I would love his z-air to hook against walls like it did in melee. This would help prevent link from getting gimped so often by characters like C-falcon. I also would love if it had more range. Another change id like to see with the claw shot is that if they brought it back to the 3.02 Z-air. I hate the landing lag so much and I prefer the knockback that it had in 3.02. The only thing I want changed in link's projectiles is more range on the bombs. IMO all of his aerials are solid, except maybe some minor changes to his b-air. Lastly his smash attacks. This may be a stretch but I want link's first hit of the f smash to be as powerful as fox's up smash, because of how slow it is. His other smash attacks are fine. His jabs should stay where they are. Also GIVE ME THE WHITE OOT SKIN PLZ LOL
 

Beorn

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Jab is like already one of Link's best moves, y'all want to buff it??? 0_0
Link has 0 moves below 7 frames on the ground (jab has a hit bubble on frame 6 that is directly above his head and will never hit anyone in front of him) which would be fine if he had what other characters with slow ground moves had, mobility and a real grab.

Jab 6 (hits infront of him frame 7)
dtilt 10 (max range on frame 11)
ftilt 14 (hits infront of him frame 15)
utilt 9 (I don't even want to get into when this move will hit)
Usmash 10
dash attack 7
fsmash 14 (max range at frame 15)
dsmash 7
grab 11 (can only grab airborne on tiny hand box)

Consider all of this on a character with poor oos options, mobility, jump squat, and no real grab to threaten shields with. I don't even want to get into how unsafe 90% of those moves are on shield or wiff. No other character in this game is at this much of a disadvantage in a close range pressure situation.

This is why we want 1 frame off of his jab. I mean it could be worse... We could be asking for a real grab.

@ TheBigChew TheBigChew Those changes would make him an amazing character, yes, but they would also make him hella spammy and require even less smash skill. I've said it before, but if you want link to be top tier broken just make his dsmash, usmash, or fsmash kill at resonable percents. This character is very easy to break, because of his huge lasting hitbubbles\ projectiles.

Edit: Also... dtilt is very unsafe on shield and not fast to come out. You really shouldn't be using it as much as it sounds like you are. It is quite good as a mix up from a connected jab, but beware, if they play against link enough to DI his jab correctly, or they are playing a ffer, you WILL get punished hard.
 
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Mr.Pickle

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For frame of reference, a slow character like bowser, has a jab that comes out on frame 5, and it's hitboxes become useful on frame 6. The only characters I can think of that have a worse jab than link, in terms of speed, are mew2 with a frame 8 jab, mk with a frame 7 jab(starts being useful on frame 8) d3 with a frame 9 jab (useful on frame 10) and zelda with a frame 11 jab. Lucario's ties by coming out on frame 6, though it's actually useful on that frame, every other character has a faster jab.

So when one of your so called "best moves" is worse than the one the other 36 characters in the roster have, that should be a big red neon flag.
 

Beorn

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If link had at least average mobility, some way out of presser that wasn't one of the most punishable moves in the game or that also cuts your ability to recover in half, or a real grab, I wouldn't care if his jab was frame 10.

I'm not saying links jab isn't one of his best moves, it is, but this is kinda the same old story for Link as his other moves. Great move if you can actually hit with it, your opponent isn't di-ing at all, and they aren't low enough to cc.
 

DarkDeity15

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For up+b, I wouldn't mind seeing the last hit have Melee KB if it doesn't [and it certainly doesn't feel like it does, and this was actually other people who first pointed it out to me]. I do NOT want to see it as a KO move beyond what it did in Melee though [i.e. it usually didn't even KO Marth at like 160% from center of Dreamland above top platform], i.e. we're not Game and Watch, we don't need to start using up+B to finish combos [although he nairs or fairs after his up+B, the idea is the same with Link].

Actually, if they just did a bunch of cool stuff, and then were like "screw it, let's buff aerial spin attack" I honestly wouldn't care. But my GUESS would be that they'd be like "aerial spin attack KO move? Sure, but what do we nerf?" and he can't really afford to have many of his tools nerfed very much [I guess I'd accept it if they nerfed ftilt as compensation lollollol].
Um, no thanks. Link needs every kill option he can get. I'd prefer that they kept the move the same, but just sped it up.

Edit:

I've come up with a few ways Link needs to change/can or should be buffed again. Some that I've mentioned before, and others that are new. All I really want is for Link to be a good character to main, and the way he is in 3.5 just doesn't seem very good to me as well as numerous others here. So I ask of the dev team to please take these changes into consideration. Especially the last couple of changes that are suggested here.

1. Speeding up Link's aerial mobility and running speed would make up for his laggy moves and would provide better spacing of his current aerials. Also, giving his momentum jump a little boost for off stage persuits would be nice, and speeding up his Fast fall a bit would also help out with spacing/zoning with his aerials.

2. Make it possible for bombs to be planted on the ground from higher up in the air when dropped. This would allow for a lot of handy tricks to become possible with bombs while improving the ones he has already, thus making them even more useful than they already are.

3. Bring back tether canceling and speed up it's "reel-in". I can't stretch that enough. Link seriously needs the mix-ups. Hell, remove the aerial glide toss if you want. It's the jankiest **** he ever had anyways. Sure, it's good for recovering from long distances but you're likely to be gimped on your way back if you try anyhow. It's so damn linear and it would normally take like 3 or 4 AGTs to recover with them from notable distances, and with how long it takes for Link to pull out his bombs, it's simply too slow.

4. Bombslides should really be more useful. Performing them should be as similar to Brawl as possible if not easier. It would help Link quite a bit in neutral. Back throw bombslide is an amazing retreating tool in Sm4sh (and we all know that PM Link seriously needs one of those), but it's unfortunately extremely difficult to perform and is almost too difficult to perform reliably, therefore limiting it's practicality. I'd also like to mention that it's very likely for bomb sliding to get patched in the future, so I'd love for it's lagacy to be preserved in PM. Pretty please?

5. It is highly reccomended that jab 1 be less CC-able & should have more IASA frames so that it can be used much like it was in Sm4sh before the last patch. Not only would it give Link another a safe option on shield, but it would be a safe, reliable kill and grab set-up without being dumb and would be an amazing grounded spacing tool in countless situations, allowing him to get close without the risk of getting rekt, which PM Link quite frankly doesn't have.

6. It seems evident now that Link simply cannot rely on his projectiles without either being called "cheap" or being flat out mediocre. So I beleive that Link really shouldn't have to rely on them as much other than maybe his bombs in the future. I just feel that this is Link's main design flaw. He would be much better off becoming more of a rush-down, yet still a zoning type of character than he is now. Relying on his projectiles just doesn't seem to work out very well for him in Smash no matter what you do, because that's just how his projectiles are designed imo. I think I'll be posting something all about this subject later, and how Link should be changed fundementally at some point.

7. Be more creative & open minded. Enough of this "make Link a better version of Melee Link" mentality. Project Melee or not, there's so much more potential in what you can do to make him better by being creative and considering other's ideas. Replicating everything from Melee only limits what you can do with him, and I'd even say that it makes him a worse character overall.
 
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Titanium

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I doubt this will change realistically, but I wish I could wavebounce my down-b. AGTing provides a lot of extra aerial mobility, but the long startup of down-b always makes me want to mix up my movement more.
 

Reidlos Toof

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It's not gonna happen, but it would be awesome to get Mortal Draw on his up taunt. Also not gonna happen, but it would be pretty cool if while holding a bomb you started charging an arrow, it became a bomb arrow.
 
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