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Pokemon Trainer vs Snake

Steeler

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Hey all you Snakes, I come to you humbly for your help. You see, we at the Pokemon Trainer board have begun a Pokemon Type Chart of sorts to categorize PT's match ups in the game, POKEMON STYLE. And we've now begun our Pokedex Entry series, where we dedicate a thread to one character.

You guys are our sixth entry! It'd be great if any of you with experience playing decent PT's could analyze the match up? So we could get both sides of the story. My hope is that it will benefit both character discussion boards, when PT one day realizes his potential and gloriously rises from the depths of hell/bottom tier...

Finally, perhaps we could set up some 1v1s between the two boards? No better way to find out than to test it in game!

Here's our discussion on Snake:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181141

my fc's in the sig, just add me and let me know and we can spar a bit. =]

thanks for the help guys!
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
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I didn't think we'd be so completely ignored. My stance on the three:

Squirtle: Squirtle's afraid of Ftilt and Utilt. The range and priority are way too much for the turtle. Unlike the other two Pokemon, he's also completely incapable of dealing with Snake's grenades and Dsmash because of a lack of a spammable ranged attack (Lol at Water Gun). On the other hand, Squirtle doesn't mind grenades or Dsmash very much since he's always lingering around in the air, and Snake isn't the best at meeting in aerial to erial combat. You obviously have your obscenely ranged Utilt to deal with that as well as mortar, but if I recall correctly Squirtle's Nair will tie the mortar shell in priority. Squirtle also likes popping off the stage and hitting Snake with Fair and Bair when he uses the Cypher. Snake's heavy and gets juggled by Utilt, too, but I don't see any feasible way in which Squirtle will get close enough to use that. And, of course, Squirtle has difficulty killing anything near as heavy as Snake is.
Snake will have to rely on non-explosives for optimum kills on Squirtle, since he resists explosive and fire damage.

Ivysaur: Razor Leaf is nullified by Ftilt, but Grenades clank and stop when hit by Razor Leaf. Razor Leaf will also deactivate Dsmash on most of the trajectories it travels, so that won't be so effective. What I'd like to check is how Ivysaur's Bair and Ftilt fares versus Snake's Ftilt and Utilt respectively, since that' what Ivysaur will spam to keep the spacing. From what I recall, both will clank with the move? I'm not certain at this point. If Snake gets in the air he's going to either be Bair'd or Nair'd, to space or set up for Bullet Seed, respectively. In addition, Ivysaur's grab range extends far beyond the stage, so any mishaps on Snake's recovery will cost him the stock. Ivy doesn't particularly like Mortar's, though, and all explosions and fire will kill Ivysaur much sooner than normal.

Charizard: Charizard likes Snake's recovery. His grab range is enough to grab Snake out of Cypher, but he can use his Bair or Fair to swat him off the side or Dair to spike him down. Charizard never particularly likes projectiles, but Flamethrower clanks with and causes Snake's grenades to detonate far from Charizard. Shielding a grenade isn't a particularly good idea as Charizard will most likely try to grab you and let it detonate on you (Which, as far as I can tell falls under the jurisdiction of faux super armor and only Snake will suffer knockback). But honestly, I don't know much about this one.

Just something to get some discussion going, and to hopefully make Snake's give their side.
 

StoleUrCar

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Hm, I rarely face any good PTs. Maybe just one, decent PT. Here's my take for what it's worth.

Vs Squirtle:
- Light and very easy to kill. Tilts will do more than enough.
- His water gun can shove Snake while he's doing the dsmash (mine) animation. Basically he makes Snake slide across the stage, and if close enough to the edge, offstage. Doesn't remove his up+b or jump though.
- Grenade countering decimates his approach game, which is pretty easy to see from what I encountered. It was mostly double aerials. However, I would think a good squirtle uses hydroplaning to its maximum potential, mixing it with smashes, aerials, and most importantly, grabs to get past nade countering. Grabs are likely going to be Squirtle's main damage builder here.
- The withdraw can be a little bothersome since it nullifies explosives, but a squirtle spamming it is pretty predictable and I can just follow and punish him out of withdraw.
- As mentioned, It's tough for Squirtle to kill Snake. You PT's likely already know this, but I'll just suggest to save a fresh upsmash or dthrow for the kill attempt. And do it past 100% damage.

Vs. Ivysaur
- I have mixed opinions against Ivy. One thing is sure, she (yea i'll call it a she) definitely does better than Squirtle.
- The razor leaves are a good thing to spam and keep Snake at bay. However, they are easily approached with some shield-dashing. If you nail Snake with a leaf up close , I suggest going for the fsmash because it somehow miraculously hits immediately as a follow up.
- She somewhat has an easier time to land bullet seed, since Snake sucks in the air. Simply bait an airdodge as he falls and go right into bullet seed. Nair is also a nice juggler.
- Usmash is nice. Tough to land, but when it does, it easily overcomes Snake's weight.
- Bair is a very good Spacing move, I believe it keeps you out of grenade countering range too.
- Dash attack is not a bad KO move at all against Snake as well. Again I find the Ivy I faced following up with this after a leaf hits.
- Downside : Easy to gimp. Send Ivy flying with a few tilts, and edgehog the tether and that's that. Razor leaf can clear the edge, and it's never bad to try, but I've learned to wait after the leaf and immediately do a hug.

Vs Charizard
- He's got good KO moves but he's bulky and easy to hit.
- Dair that cypher. Charizard has those multi-jumps so use them.
- The rock is really what bothers me. That thing can stop mortar slides and grabs, and the super armor can protect you from what could have been a potential Snake utilt and tack on damage afterwards.
- Use ftilt to contend with Snake's range.
- Interesting thing, the Charizard I faced auto-cancels fair into other stuff. I didn't expect that so it's something to use for a surprise tactic.
- Dsmash punishes rolling pretty well. I think that's probably general charizard knowledge.
- He's heavy so he doesn't die as fast, but he doesn't really have many high priority moves besides the rock (which is punishable by rolling behind him) to really give Snake's tilts a tough time.

IMO Ivy does best.
 

Cat Fight

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I think I have a few saved replays of my Snake vs PT board's Yukiwarashi I can upload.

I'm on my Wii right now, but I'd love to contribute as soon as I can get on a keyboard.
 

Retro Gaming

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Hm, I rarely face any good PTs. Maybe just one, decent PT. Here's my take for what it's worth.

Vs Squirtle:
- Light and very easy to kill. Tilts will do more than enough.
- His water gun can shove Snake while he's doing the dsmash (mine) animation. Basically he makes Snake slide across the stage, and if close enough to the edge, offstage. Doesn't remove his up+b or jump though.
- Grenade countering decimates his approach game, which is pretty easy to see from what I encountered. It was mostly double aerials. However, I would think a good squirtle uses hydroplaning to its maximum potential, mixing it with smashes, aerials, and most importantly, grabs to get past nade countering. Grabs are likely going to be Squirtle's main damage builder here.
- The withdraw can be a little bothersome since it nullifies explosives, but a squirtle spamming it is pretty predictable and I can just follow and punish him out of withdraw.
- As mentioned, It's tough for Squirtle to kill Snake. You PT's likely already know this, but I'll just suggest to save a fresh upsmash or dthrow for the kill attempt. And do it past 100% damage.
Water Gun is almost useless, is what you're saying. I highly doubt that a Squirtle will conciously use Withdraw to clear explosions, since the recoil momentum can potentially send Squirtle off so far that he is incapable of returning with his relatively bad recovery. Squirtle's definately going to keep both attacks fresh.

Vs. Ivysaur
- I have mixed opinions against Ivy. One thing is sure, she (yea i'll call it a she) definitely does better than Squirtle.
- The razor leaves are a good thing to spam and keep Snake at bay. However, they are easily approached with some shield-dashing. If you nail Snake with a leaf up close , I suggest going for the fsmash because it somehow miraculously hits immediately as a follow up.
- She somewhat has an easier time to land bullet seed, since Snake sucks in the air. Simply bait an airdodge as he falls and go right into bullet seed. Nair is also a nice juggler.
- Usmash is nice. Tough to land, but when it does, it easily overcomes Snake's weight.
- Bair is a very good Spacing move, I believe it keeps you out of grenade countering range too.
- Dash attack is not a bad KO move at all against Snake as well. Again I find the Ivy I faced following up with this after a leaf hits.
- Downside : Easy to gimp. Send Ivy flying with a few tilts, and edgehog the tether and that's that. Razor leaf can clear the edge, and it's never bad to try, but I've learned to wait after the leaf and immediately do a hug.
Ivysaur likes to use Razor Leaf to set up for other things like grabs and what you mentioned. Dash attack will likely be used, but the percentage is significantly higher than any of the other KO moves.


Vs Charizard
- He's got good KO moves but he's bulky and easy to hit.
- Dair that cypher. Charizard has those multi-jumps so use them.
- The rock is really what bothers me. That thing can stop mortar slides and grabs, and the super armor can protect you from what could have been a potential Snake utilt and tack on damage afterwards.
- Use ftilt to contend with Snake's range.
- Interesting thing, the Charizard I faced auto-cancels fair into other stuff. I didn't expect that so it's something to use for a surprise tactic.
- Dsmash punishes rolling pretty well. I think that's probably general charizard knowledge.
- He's heavy so he doesn't die as fast, but he doesn't really have many high priority moves besides the rock (which is punishable by rolling behind him) to really give Snake's tilts a tough time.
Charizard really isn't going to auto-cancel Fair approaches. Charizard can auto-cancel all aerials besides Dair for the record, but if Charizard is going to approach, it's going to be with Bair. Fair and Nair are far too suceptible to being shield grabbed.

Anyway, the ultimate goal of this is to place disadvantaged or advantageous match-ups on all three Pokemon. What would the Snake mains say about this? Honestly, I think it's leaning more towards neutral or slightly-disadvantaged. Unless of course someone posts more things to consider.
 

Charizard92

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What made you think that, the fact that Marth, a tier below Snake, creams us or the fact that most high tier characters do (meta Knight oddly doesn't)?
 

StoleUrCar

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Oh you want it that concise?

squirtle - disadvantage

ivy - slight disadvantage

charizard - slight disadvantage (moreso than ivy)

edit: keep in mind this is all IMO.
 

Charizard92

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How to tell when one group of mainers ignores another group, when the other group's question gets answered by only one guy.
 

Cecilanius

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Er..I wouldn't play online to make statistics on a matchup. Snake is really hard to play online. All you can do is tilt, really.

I wish I could help out, but, I've NEVER played a PT. :(
 

StoleUrCar

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How to tell when one group of mainers ignores another group, when the other group's question gets answered by only one guy.
Idk lol im not Rusty and he basically wrote the how-to's and foundations for snake...Cecilanius who is also quite knowledgeable has never played a PT as he said. I think it's just lack of experience : / Cat Fight maybe...
 

Cecilanius

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Yeah. I don't want to start posting ignorant posts on a character that I've never really faced before. Not many people have experience against PT.

Thanks for the support StoleUrCar. :)
 

Cecilanius

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Idk lol im not Rusty and he basically wrote the how-to's and foundations for snake...Cecilanius who is also quite knowledgeable has never played a PT as he said. I think it's just lack of experience : / Cat Fight maybe...
Rusty is out for a month! :( That's why I've been doing the matchup thread.

So there are not many choices.
 

Cat Fight

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I was kind of procrastinating today and forgot to post when I was on a computer (Wii browser now).

Yukiwarashi (PT main) and I will be contributing some matches tomorrow when he's available and I'll attempt to write my analysis on the matchup afterwards.

Charizard92, no one is ignoring you guys. Relax.

It's obvious that few of us are familiar with the matchup. I've played a total of three PT mains in a tourney setting. I don't know how they (the PT mains I played) are perceived skill-wise in the community, suffice it to say, they gave my Snake no trouble at all.

Alas, I'll have my write-up tomorrow.
 

Steeler

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ah thanks cat fight, i appreciate it.

pt and snake are on completely opposite scales of the tier and popularity scale, so this is understandable. =]

i'd like to see how well or poorly ivysaur's attacks outrange snake and keep him at bay, i really feel ivy is pt's best bet here and may even have a slight advantage. razor leaf keeps the pressure on from afar and messes with the grenade game, and up close ivysaur could do pretty well too.

also vine whipping snake out of cypher :)

charizard is interesting...he has nice range but i think snake's tilts are just too much. he's a big target for grenades and mortars. flamethrower and rock smash definitely have their uses here but i don't think it's enough. a probably slight disadvantage around 40-60, i think.

squirtle u__________-u

outranged horrendously, snake's various explosives screw with any shellshifting. usually when i play snakes, little shellshifted shieldgrabs are my main form of offense, and thats when snake can just dodge to tilt.
 

Cat Fight

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Ivysaur

Ivysaur, without a doubt, does the best in this matchup. He's capable of preventing Snake from grenade countering because of Razor Leaf spam into Ftilt, which is a feat at long range. Yukiwarashi was able to keep pressure on me using a full hop double Razor Leaf > close range Ftilt into Dtilt.

Snake is most vulnerable in the air, that's a given. Anything can keep Snake in the air, use it. Though, Ivysaur truly does not have many options for off the stage edge guarding. As Steeler said, Ivysaur's UpB vine is something you should think about setting up as Snake is Cyphering, but a Snake player can prevent this by Cyphering vertically from the stage and FFing/air dodge quickly back on. Also, in this situation, if Snake pulls out a grenade when falling back to the stage it may discourage the Ivysaur player to vine whip or approach. Other than that, Razor Leaf can rack up damage off the stage, heh.

Against Ivysaur I encourage not to use yr C4 on the stage simply because of Ivysaur's grab range. It can reach pretty far off the stage which could be trouble for Snake. This way, if yr incapable of recovering with yr Cypher away from the stage and get grabbed, you can C4 yrself and get back on. Costs a bit of percent, but nothing Snake can't dish back out.

Unfortunately, Razor Leaf can only do so much. When Snake isn't holding a grenade he is able to Ftilt Ivysaur's Razor Leaf barrage. If an Ivysaur player spends the whole match Razor Leafing his stamina will drop extremely fast and Snake will have taken little to no damage.

I believe what works best for spacing is Bair > Fsmash/Ftilt, Fsmash > Dtilt, or any variant using those three moves. Fsmash to bait Snake in, and since both D and Ftilt are quick you can get them in before the shielding or approaching Snake has time to tilt you to death. I would suggest Ftilt unless you are getting too predictable since Dtilt may have a little less priority than Ftilt.

Ivysaur's dash attack, Tackle, has great knockback. Use it for mix up off Razor Leaf or moves with lots of end lag.

Out of shield close range, a Nair > bulletseed works wonders on Snake because of his heavy weight. Guaranteed atleast 60%. Otherwise I wouldn't be in the air all that much unless you are pressuring with Razor Leaf because it will encourage plenty of grenade shielding. If yr going to be in the air and are bent on spacing with an aerial, use bair. It's autocancelled and easy to spam and not easy to punish whereas weaving in and out with Fair can be deadly for Ivysaur. The thing is about this is that you can easily perfect shield Ivysaur's fair, but not bair because of its multihit, so keep that in mind.

For Snake, it's very easy to edgeguard Ivysaur. Ftilting Razor Leaf until you get close, or perfect shielding, can lead to you pushing Ivysaur towards the edge or off the edge. Because of Ivysaur's horrible recovery, he wants to stay as far away from the edge as possible. NEVER not UpB onto the stage. Do NOT approach the edge and think you are simply going to GRAB it. Snake can Jab > Ftilt or just Ftilt (first hit) you while you are attempting to the grab the edge and quick hug > bair you until Ivysaur's UpB vine can't reach anymore.

Ivysaur is weak to all of Snake's explosives because of his grass type. It acts as "Fire" on the super effective chart. I don't think Ivysaur should remain at long-range for too much of the match because it will encourage lots of grenade cooking and that's BAAAAD for Ivysaur.

Out of the three, I believe going into the match as Ivysaur first is the most success you'll get at the start.

I'll do Charizard and Squirtle later. Hope this helps a little. I didn't cover EVERYTHING as most has been covered or is common knowledge to keep away from. Snake's Utilt, for example. It WILL kill you. There's really not much you can do to prevent it.
 

Steeler

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very very very nice analysis cat fight.

what do you think ivy should do to kill? personally i think knocking snake away and switching to charizard to kill and then switching in squirtle to begin the next stock anew with ivy is the best strategy to use, assuming zard/squirtle stays out long enough to refresh ivy (just a minute). this way ivy is out there on the field as much as possible.

ivy is prone to fatigue with all the leaves and spacing it has to do to stay safe. not to mention the lack of reliable kill moves, fsmash is decent but its useful playing the spacing game.

usmash is pretty hard to land with but it's there, and uair is the same, although i don't see many opportunities to use it where snake won't just blatantly see ivy under him and just airdodge/dair/fair.

ivy's fair can actually kill when fresh (and not fatigued) at upwards of 150%, maybe? but at that point a fresh charizard can easily come in and finish the job so it may not be worth it to keep ivy out by then.
 

Retro Gaming

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The only way to land Uair reliably is to mind-game it. First you teach an unwary PT opponent to be afraid of the Uair by killing them at ~60%. (A little more for Snake). In future jumps at them, you just simply have to watch their response. All of Snake's aerials are laggy, and air-dodge can be predicted and waited out with a fast-fall. By the way, you can probably get a Bullet Seed in if you're placement is right, although it'll do maybe 10-15%, instead of the norm.

Anyway, Catfight's analysis sounds dead-on, and I think further illustrates either slight disadvantage or neutral for the Ivysaur fight.

The only things I would add are:

Although Ivysaur doesn't have many capabilities for-off edge edge-guarding, it's really fond of meeting any returns from the ledge with Bair, which will push you back over at moderately-high percents or maybe leave you open for another one within a very small percent-zone. Razor Leaf might be thrown out at a Snake returning from above or near the stage-line, and Snake doesn't really have to worry about the tether-hogging as much.

Razor Leaf clanks with grenades, but won't go through.
 

Elliot Gale

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Ivy really can fight off-stage just fine, it's just that the only move in his arsenal that stops the Cypher that doesn't risk putting you in mortal danger is Fair. You can try Uair, people wouldn't expect you to do that out there.
 

Retro Gaming

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Ivysaur IS safe during Snake's recovery, truth be told. Any sort of attack is easy to avoid by either fast-fall to tether or else just an air-dodge. I like to pop-out with Bair. as long as Ivysaur is between the stage and the opponent, it should be okay. The only times you have to worry about are when the opponent is between the stage and you.

The only thing is the damage out there is not realy worth noting unless you use like Fair, Bair does like 4%. I prefer Razor Leaf since it's safer and a little more spammable.

I jump out for the Uair as a surprise kill move only, and you usually have to tether immedietly or risk death.
 

Cat Fight

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Nair > Uair on Snake's recovery could work. Even if Snake FFs/airdodged after Nair, Uair should hit because of how it pushes you further down. Just be careful about getting back to the stage/edge if yr not using this to KO.

I'll probably wrap up Charizard sometime during today. Yukiwarashi and I recorded I think 5 matches yesterday, albeit online, it should still help the discussion.
 

Steeler

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as charizard, fairing a recovering snake on cypher is pretty effective too, and you could fake the fair after the first time to set up for a dair spike.
 

Steeler

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Ok so we need to wrap this up. :S

I'd say Ivysaur is neutral or slight advantage...anywhere from 45-55 to 55-45. I honestly think Ivysaur has a pretty decent handle on Snake, but I don't want to get too carried away. ;P snake is for once outranged and outprioritized, and as long as ivy plays a decent midrange game, razor leaf screws up any grenade tactics. and ivysaur can definitely rack up damage on snake, particularly with nair to bullet seed.

the thing about ivysaur, i think, is that you can safely poke at snake and hurt him from a distance.

Squirtle is outranged pretty badly. however, squirtle's jabs and ftilt have great priority and i've seen instances where snake's ftilt clanked with squirtle's jab. squirtle really really has to use its superior mobility to even touch snake. and that's what all good squirtles should do anyway so...moot point. anyway snake's aerials are fairly laggy, so squirtle can try and REALLY push the advantage once snake is airborne. snake's various grenade tactics are fairly effective at screwing squirtle up and messing with its rhythm, at the very least. squirtle has to find a way inside snake's range and stay there with good pressure every now and then...

i think snake has a decent advantage here, at least 40-60, but it's not completely hopeless for the tiny turtle. just play a smart hit and run game and take advantage of any mistakes.

charizard is interesting...i'll be brief here since i'm getting impatient but snake still outranges zard with ftilt. flamethrower and rock smash will punish snake HARD if you manage to land it after a block or whiffed attack. bair has some decent range, utilt can juggle a little bit, and that dair...great spike on snake as he recovers from below. and as he approaches horizontally, both fair and bair hit snake off the cypher.

zard's a huge target for grenades and mines though so watch for that. zard has to play in snake's face and be aggressive because grenade cooking is a huge problem for someone of zard's size.

i'd say 35-65 or 40-60 in this case...please add in anything yall can come up with!
 
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