Pokemon Trainer vs Ness

[typh]

champ DI'd my fresh squirtle fresh dthrow with falcon at 150% on the edge of smashville once

and trust me it wasn't a fatigued squirtle and it was the first time i used dthrow

****'s crazy

 

[_clinton]

Alright here are my match up ratios, assuming nothing that is said changes my mind.

Oh boy...

Squirtle- W/o chaingrabs. 60:40. In a match that will take place mostly in the air Squirtle has the better air game. His aerials are slightly quicker and he is slightly more agile. Ness' nair will hit him out of combos (ness will be hit too) but if Squirtle stays on top of him his other aerials aren't quite quick enough.

Ness has more power, and range in his aerials though which amounts to a greater priority in said moves...by a larger amount overall...Squirtle barely beats Ness in the speed/moving part...

On the ground Squirtle has slightly quicker jabs/tilts.] Ness has more power to KO but his bat is a bit slow, and PKT2 is easy to see coming (it will KO Squirtle at like 50 though).

PKT2 isn't always easy to see coming...for one thing it doesn't move with the screen for another thing the move's patterns can be used in several ways...

Ness' tilts are overall below average anyway except for maybe Utilt because of its priority (the thing can beat Link's Dair or at least trade with it because it is DJed) and really are avoidable IMO but they have their marks...Ftilt has a good amount of power and Dtilt has a lock and trip property to it...his jab is a get off me move that has a DJed hit box to give it an ok amount of range and can jab lock...but I'm aware of Squirtle's 1 frame jab...

So I'll give Squirtle the tilts and jab award...but I'm not going into the other things as easily...

If Squirtle can force Ness to recover with PKThunder (on this note Dair knocks back at a low angle too) he should be able to gimp Ness' recovery.

Squirtle (W/chaingrab)- 70:30. Squirtle's grab release isn't very hard and in the hands of a skilled player should be a stock loss. Ness has no room for error in this matchup and any mistake in spacing is devastating. Ness' projectile game isn't going to be too useful against Squirtle here.

Its not a stock loss with Marth...who doesn't have to walk to redo it...why is it a stock loss with Squirtle? Who has a lower frame rate for a regrab and seems easier to screw up with...

And Ness' projectile game is always useful IMO when it comes to PKT...but I also feel I should bring up a question of can Ness' PKF can trap Squirtle better than it should because of his lower knockback from fire?

Stuff on Ivysaur

If said view is to just switch I don't feel like talking about it that much...

Charizard- Chaingrab is useful here. In the right position its probably 25% damage at least and the chance for an edgeguard. Charizard is fast enough that Ness' projectile game won't hurt him too badly. If Zard can hit fair or Dair off the stage at moderate %Ness should be done.

Right...Ness' projectiles won't hurt...bull...Zard is a large fat target

With Zards grab range grabs shouldn't be a problem. Ness has to space his aerials very carefully to avoid shieldgrab. If Zard is good at powershielding it becomes a lot tougher. I'm not sure if anything but a properly spaced Fair is safe as an approach.

Um...getting behind Zard isn't that hard and the fact that Ness can whip out two Nair's in a short hop makes it safe a lot as well...

Rocksmash is as useful as always. Flamethrower is useful. If Ness can PsiMagnet it still leaves him a bit open.

I guess someone corrected this already...

Combine Charizards grab game, chain grab, and the difference in weight/power and charizard has a decent advantage. I'd say 60:40 Charizard.

Right...the fact that they both have moves that kill at low % and overall Ness is a lot tricker to edge guard than Zard makes me think other wise...but whatever

As for stages FD, Sville, and Pictochat should work allright. . Walkoff edges should be good too so Delfino and Siege are considerations too, although Ness throws can also be deadly on these stages so its a double edged sword. Battlefield might be good for him too. Ness will most likely want someplace like Norfair or Brinstar. RC can be a problem. He'll have plenty of oppurtunities to spike and the small boundaries make his throws and bair dangerous.

BF is one of my favorite stages as Ness actually...all three platforms are easy for Ness to cover with and make it bad for others...so the fact that others can do it as well really just depends on the character...but overall the view on what Ness players like seems to vary by some point...

Also just noticed the debate above; top Aerial maneuverability in the game goes Wario > Squirtle > Jiggs > Ness > Everyone else (might have Squirtle and Jiggs reversed).

Do you have a link for this? It is one my to look at list...

Still I can't see why anyone wouldn't list Squirtle as the hardest one for Ness to fight IMO...

Quite a few players don't have Ivysaur anywhere near the level of the other two (not saying Holy is one of them)...65:35 sounds harsh - I think Ivy can do better, but I could be wrong. As I said, I don't play Ivy vs Ness a lot.

I think Ivy is better than a 65:35 as well actually...but I'll admit that Ivysaur is my least favorite pokemon to play as...

As for PKT, I still don't see what you're saying. If you use PKT, I can just dash at you, sh-fair to cancel it out, and continue dashing at you.

My main reason for using something like PKT is when I notice you have used a move in the 1st place...I'm not just going to throw out a move that leaves me wide open unless you are in need to recover or I'm screwing around...

Interesting about Ness' b-throw... I never noticed not to DI, but I guess most of the time when I get killed by it I would have died even if I had done it properly. Squirtle gets killed by it way too early x.x As for my matchup experience, ColinJF is in my town, so I've played him quite a bit. I usually have a slight edge over him now too.

God...Colin is very good IMO...

 

[Tien2500]

To be fair I don't see Squirtle living past 115 if he is grabbed at all actually...

No probably not. Maybe if he's in the center of a stage.

Bair is always useful...it is his fastest aerial as far as cool down goes...not only that but Fair isn't the only thing Ness can retreat pretty well...

I'm pretty sure that Bair is not safe on Zard or Squirt's shield if powershielded (or just Shielded for Zard maybe). Against Squirtle in the air his aerial should come out quicker.

Yeah well he doesn't...characters like JP, Marth, and Wario don't threaten me with their air games...why should Squirtle?

Who cares about Marth, Jiggly or Wario? I main ZSS as well as PT. Jiggly, Marth, and Wario's air games don't bother me much at all. Squirtle's does. Thats not to say Squirtle's is better but it certainly is different so how much trouble you have dealing with Marth doesn't really matter.

You still haven't really explained to me how Ness fights off Squirtle in the air.

The same thing works with Ness as well...if Squirtle isn't in a position to edge guard Ness should be fine as well...and as far as time to use it takes...you can adjust said time in many ways to throw off someone...you shouldn't screw with a recovery move that will kill you at 30% if you go at it wrong...just saying...

It should be harder to get Squirtle in a position to edgeguard him. If Squirtle is close by to a PK thundering Ness he can get to him before it hits. Situations to edgeguard Squirtle will be rarer.

Ness' air moves are pretty easy to restore his 2nd jump with...and again...I don't fear a grab release...playing in the right areas lets you avoid any real issues with it...and why should Ness have to approach Squirtle or Charizard anyway as well I might add?

Well if he ever gets behind you in life/stock for one thing. Ness doesn't have the tools to camp them, especially Squirtle. I'm guessing you'd want to be somewhat aggresive against Charizard to rack up damage at low %s. And of course to get the KO you need to get close.

You miss my point about keeping him at PK Fire range...it is to punish him with said move of Fire or thunder if you screw up...

Keeping Zard in PK fire range is not going to be easy. One powershield of PK fire should be enough to get him inside. IIRC.

Oh and I don't really care about staying in the air the entire match...I just prefer it over the ground...however I should point out that Ness' ground game isn't 100% **** at least...the fact that he has far more than a few KOing options in every single part of his move set makes me ok with him being on the ground...

Squirtle's ground game is better here. Faster tilts and jab and all.

I'm not worried about getting grabbed the entire match actually...just when you are on the ground and I'm 50% away from the ledge...

Fair enough. But its still a significant concern that limits your options.

My point of bringing up some of the options with Dair was to list that he had ways of using it...but again Ness has more than that...

Looking into things like PK Flash for example the things only real use is ledge guarding...and the reason for that is the fact that the move has a faster cool down than his other special moves...but a long lasting chance to hit with the hit box...care to guess why Flash has uses in ledge guarding?

I'm not too concerned with PK Flash. Its occasionally useful but its easy to see coming.

Ness does have some combos as well...but like everyone else in this game...a lot of the other things he has are just set ups...

I don't think anyone has combos in this game O_O.

{quote]If PSI Magnet absorbs something Ness isn't at risk at all for getting grabbed if the player is good...and the only way Flamethrower will do 20% is if you hold it out for a while...because the most Ness will restore from a quick flamethrow is just over 10%...[/quote] I think PSI magnet has a bit of cooldown on it. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

Ness is a small target as well...so I don't see rock smash doing over 25% unless someone screws up...

It has the potential to do that much damage on lighter characters to. Its somewhat more difficult but not that much harder. 25% is still good though.

The chain grab will also depend on some things...like how fast the Ness is at breaking out of it...but as far as the window for Charizard's regrab...he has 6 frames to work with...Squirtle has less...but Squirtle has deadlier throws...

Assuming the PT is of a high level he should be able to consistently get the chaingrabs off.

I've never said Ness has an all in one move purpose answer to Squirtle's air game...just an answer if Squirtle wants to be aggressive...I know he can do more than that...and I also said that Nair will trade hits...

Anyway at least we seem clear about this...don't **** with Ness' air attacks am I right?

Yeah of course. Ness has a great air game and if Squirtle screws up his spacing he can be in a bit of trouble. But if Squirtle can stay on top of Ness he has an advantage here.

Public Service Announcement: 100% of Brawlers that don’t respect the Thundah! are liable to be struck by it. The moment in which you are stunned, convulsing in mid-air, just before you are sent off to your stock’s final resting place, it is a time for you to reflect upon your mistake. Respect the thunder.

Oh and the head isn't the thing most Ness users will use with PKT anyway...the tail is pretty much 100% better...the tail and PKT2 eat through shields like a hot knife through butter as well I might add sense if I'm going to compare it to Rock Smash I should bring up that (If Ness is going to break a shield...PKT is going to be a part of it being broken) said move is in general is a multi-purpose "Swiss army knife" capable of offense, and defensive spacing tool and compliments his air game to the point that makes it what it is...by far above average...

Lol. Its useful no doubt but not enough to really turn the tides in this battle. Squirtle in particular can easily hit it away with an aerial.

As for Avarice.

Of course I take my Ness experience with a grain of salt. I'm not an expert on Ness. Thats what these conversations are all about .

Ivy is in no way 65:35 against Ness. 65:35 is close to a hard counter and I just don't think that this is. What does Ness have that spefically shuts Ivy down?

 

[Tien2500]

Oh boy...



Ness has more power, and range in his aerials though which amounts to a greater priority in said moves...by a larger amount overall...Squirtle barely beats Ness in the speed/moving part...

Pretty sure Squirtle's aerials are quicker which nullifies the range and Squirtle's airs have less cooldown too.

[quotePKT2 isn't always easy to see coming...for one thing it doesn't move with the screen for another thing the move's patterns can be used in several ways...[/quote]

Yeah it is. How many frames does it take from Ness performing his move and screaming "PK Thunder" till he's actually doing it? Anything that takes that long has to be easy so see coming.

Its not a stock loss with Marth...who doesn't have to walk to redo it...why is it a stock loss with Squirtle? Who has a lower frame rate for a regrab and seems easier to screw up with...

Why isn't it a stock loss for Marth? To tell you the truth I don't actually use Squirtle's chain in this matchup. I've tried it out just to try it a few times and found it easy to do and it seems if Squirtle has enough room he should be able to rack up enough damage to KO. He doesn't have to go forward that much. I'll test it out more I guess.

And Ness' projectile game is always useful IMO when it comes to PKT...but I also feel I should bring up a question of can Ness' PKF can trap Squirtle better than it should because of his lower knockback from fire?

I dunno. I've never had much trouble DIing out of this. Squirtle can knock out PKthunder pretty easily and he shouldn't be getting hit with PK fire. Characters with aerial mobility like that are generally pretty hard to shut down with projectiles.

If said view is to just switch I don't feel like talking about it that much...

If you have knowledge of this feel free to share it. Some people legitimately like using Ivy and will use him.

Right...Ness' projectiles won't hurt...bull...Zard is a large fat target

I'm not saying his projectiles are useless. They'll do some damage and all but they're not going to shut Zard down too badly. He should do okay with them.

Um...getting behind Zard isn't that hard and the fact that Ness can whip out two Nair's in a short hop makes it safe a lot as well...

If Charizard is playing /spacing right it should be hard to get behind him. I believe Nair can be shieldgrabbed on a normal shield. I'm almost positive it can on a power shield.

Right...the fact that they both have moves that kill at low % and overall Ness is a lot tricker to edge guard than Zard makes me think other wise...but whatever.

Charizard has alot of good kill moves. Rock Smash if undiminished/Fsmash, dtilt, Usmash (very quick and powerful), bair, fair and Dair offstage. In terms of power Ness has PKT2 which I maintain is easy to see coming, Fsmash, Bair, Uair if the opponent is in the air, and dair for spikes. Combined with the weight difference I'd say Charizard has an advantage.

Charizard can be hard to edgeguard due to multiple jumps and the superarmor on his Up B.

BF is one of my favorite stages as Ness actually...all three platforms are easy for Ness to cover with and make it bad for others...so the fact that others can do it as well really just depends on the character...but overall the view on what Ness players like seems to vary by some point...

Squirtle does as well as Ness here. Ness will benefit from the stage more than Charizard, just be careful because Usmash and Utilt will work through platforms. I'd still say RC is your best bet. Does RC make it hard for Ness to recover?

Keep in mind on Smashville trainer has an instant switch, as well as on Lylat, I believe RC, and a couple of others which escape me.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

pk fire only goes a few body lengths, not nearly enough to be considered a threat against any of the pokemon, and you can usually smash DI out of it before you can get hit again. I honestly do not understand why this move keeps being brought up. It cannot be hard to see that this matchup is definately in ptrainer's favor

 

[Tien2500]

pk fire only goes a few body lengths, not nearly enough to be considered a threat against any of the pokemon, and you can usually smash DI out of it before you can get hit again. I honestly do not understand why this move keeps being brought up. It cannot be hard to see that this matchup is definately in ptrainer's favor

At low percentages I think it can keep you long enough for a follow up. Or maybe my DI is just bad.

 

[Steeler]

falcon is also surprisingly heavy and has a good fastfall speed. ness wouldn't survive a fresh no stamina dthrow at 150+.

ivysaur is 40:60 at worst and could be even.

 

[AvariceX]

falcon is also surprisingly heavy and has a good fastfall speed. ness wouldn't survive a fresh no stamina dthrow at 150+.

Captain Falcon 1.030
Link 1.030
Wolf 1.020
Lucario 1.010
Ivysaur 1.010
Mario 1
Luigi 0.995
Sonic 0.985
Ness 0.980

Falcon and Ness' weight and everyone in between...not too much difference.

Squirtle's dthrow sends you straight up, as soon as he grabs you just mash both sticks straight horizontally away from squirtle; you'll live to really high %'s, it's not hard.

 

[Tien2500]

Falcon and Ness' weight and everyone in between...not too much difference.

Squirtle's dthrow sends you straight up, as soon as he grabs you just mash both sticks straight horizontally away from squirtle; you'll live to really high %'s, it's not hard.

The knockback on Dthrow is not straight up. Way more vertical than horizontal but not exactly straight up. Also the difference in fall speeds is rather significant.

And just for the sake of clarity the difference in weight between Ness and Falcon is the same as the difference between Charizard and Bowser or between Zelda and Sonic. So its definitely a noticeable difference.

 

[_clinton]

No probably not. Maybe if he's in the center of a stage.

I don't see Squirtle living passed 115 even if he is at a bad area when thrown actually...

I'm pretty sure that Bair is not safe on Zard or Squirt's shield if powershielded (or just Shielded for Zard maybe). Against Squirtle in the air his aerial should come out quicker.

They'll come out quicker if they are coming at the same time...

Who cares about Marth, Jiggly or Wario? I main ZSS as well as PT. Jiggly, Marth, and Wario's air games don't bother me much at all. Squirtle's does. Thats not to say Squirtle's is better but it certainly is different so how much trouble you have dealing with Marth doesn't really matter.

You still haven't really explained to me how Ness fights off Squirtle in the air.

Squirtle can't get in freely with Ness because of how much range and power he has in his airs such as Fair where as the plus that Squirtle has isn't a large one...

And my point of bringing up the others was the fact that the other boards are at least willing to admit to Ness' insane air game as well...

It should be harder to get Squirtle in a position to edgeguard him. If Squirtle is close by to a PK thundering Ness he can get to him before it hits. Situations to edgeguard Squirtle will be rarer.

What does Squirtle have that will keep Ness away from him again? He doesn't have anything like Mario's cape or insane air range + speed like Marth...so what does he have?

Well if he ever gets behind you in life/stock for one thing. Ness doesn't have the tools to camp them, especially Squirtle. I'm guessing you'd want to be somewhat aggresive against Charizard to rack up damage at low %s. And of course to get the KO you need to get close.

I don't have to get to close to the point where it is risky...I just have to wait for a mess up...which is how you kill in Brawl anyway...

Keeping Zard in PK fire range is not going to be easy. One powershield of PK fire should be enough to get him inside. IIRC.

Again...why would I throw out PK Fire unless I see an opening...

Squirtle's ground game is better here. Faster tilts and jab and all.

Considering how I already gave the tilt and jab reward to Squirtle I won't disagree...but I'll argue about them being at least someone close as well...

Their Utilts are nearly the same move...
There is a difference between their Ftilt...however, I see their Dtilts as sort of different to call...

Fair enough. But its still a significant concern that limits your options.

Not by that much...considering how even if grabbed I'm not going to be just letting you pummel me freely...god its pretty easy to break out of grabs at mid range to low % you know...

I'm not too concerned with PK Flash. Its occasionally useful but its easy to see coming.

You miss my point when I said the move has Ness' fastest cool down time for specials...I mean using it as a fake out and getting you to avoid it is to my advantage...

I don't think anyone has combos in this game O_O.

Plenty of characters do...they just are limited...Ness' combos that are true though comes from Dair...although at higher % that goes away if it is fresh...so a Dair to Uair isn't going to happen...in vBrawl at least ^_^

I think PSI magnet has a bit of cooldown on it. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

A. if I absorb something there isn't much risk because I could just roll away...B. If you are trying to fake out...the magnet does push you out of the grab range overall with its wind so you do have to get closer so it isn't just a free opening...C. Charizard's Flamethrower isn't on my list of things I'll absorb anyway because the % gained from it sucks like I've said already......

It has the potential to do that much damage on lighter characters to. Its somewhat more difficult but not that much harder. 25% is still good though.

I never said it didn't have the potential to do high damage to lighter characters...it still doesn't really matter because both Ness and Charizard can both rack up damage fast if given the chance...

Assuming the PT is of a high level he should be able to consistently get the chaingrabs off.

But why does that matter if you can only get like one pummel at a time if the Ness knows how to break out fast of pummels fast? Really the only time the lock is deadly on Ness is when a character has a move they can use that will kill after the move...

Yeah of course. Ness has a great air game and if Squirtle screws up his spacing he can be in a bit of trouble. But if Squirtle can stay on top of Ness he has an advantage here.

But Ness has things that can screw with the spacing of others...

Lol. Its useful no doubt but not enough to really turn the tides in this battle. Squirtle in particular can easily hit it away with an aerial.

The tail has unlimited priority though...so how is he going to hit that away?

Yeah it is. How many frames does it take from Ness performing his move and screaming "PK Thunder" till he's actually doing it? Anything that takes that long has to be easy so see coming.

A. The move moves at an above average speed, B. you can't always see it and learning the move takes muscle memory, for that stuff, C. Actually trying to hit Ness could get you screwed...because that is what the move does at a high level of play...makes it look like Ness is 100% open...

Why isn't it a stock loss for Marth? To tell you the truth I don't actually use Squirtle's chain in this matchup. I've tried it out just to try it a few times and found it easy to do and it seems if Squirtle has enough room he should be able to rack up enough damage to KO. He doesn't have to go forward that much. I'll test it out more I guess.

So you've never tried it in a real match or what?

And it isn't a stock loss for Ness for a number of reasons...A. he will only get one pummel if even that at mid and low %, so the move will only do a very low % of damage per play...and won't last that long because of how Ness will play (making it so Marth can't just freely grab him from far away from the ledge) B. if Marth screws up on the timing Ness get out for free from a air release...

Really the only thing Ness has to worry about is a Dsmash KO at higher %...but Ness happens to have said KO out of throw option on Marth as well...how about that?

Characters with aerial mobility like that are generally pretty hard to shut down with projectiles.

Again the main thing PK Thunder is used for by me is to screw with someone's spacing...so it isn't really always trying to annoy them...as it is just trying to limit them...but whatever...I'm aware of the fact that out of the characters Squirtle is one of hardest to screw with because of his size and speed...even with PKT being 3x larger than him or so ^_^

If you have knowledge of this feel free to share it. Some people legitimately like using Ivy and will use him.

I have match exp coming from both ends of the play from using Ivy to fighting Ivy...lets just say it ranges for how well I do ^_^

I'm not saying his projectiles are useless. They'll do some damage and all but they're not going to shut Zard down too badly. He should do okay with them.

I'm not saying they are going to shut down Zard too badly...I'm just saying they are above average in use because Zard is well about as fast as Ness in the air...but he isn't mobile at all for one...and I really don't see me using it when he is one the ground unless I see some after lag because of his running speed...

If Charizard is playing /spacing right it should be hard to get behind him. I believe Nair can be shieldgrabbed on a normal shield. I'm almost positive it can on a power shield.

You are aware that Ness could just jump away as well if he shielding it? You can do two of them in one short hop...but you can also rise while doing the 2nd one...

Charizard has alot of good kill moves. Rock Smash if undiminished/Fsmash, dtilt, Usmash (very quick and powerful), bair, fair and Dair offstage. In terms of power Ness has PKT2 which I maintain is easy to see coming, Fsmash, Bair, Uair if the opponent is in the air, and dair for spikes. Combined with the weight difference I'd say Charizard has an advantage.

PKT2 (I spent like a large part of my time already pointing out that this move is by far better than other moves that have chance kills...and by chance kills I mean things like Ike's Fsmash and Falcon Punch)
Bair (Stronger than the ones from Samus, Zamus, and Fox if you want a base)
Dair (Strongest in the game as far as base power to the point where it can kill at 0%, and even the sour is able to kill)
Uair (Again this is = to Wario's speed...oh and they don't have to be in the air...I really don't see why you said that)
Fsmash
Bthrow (the fact that this kills better than Bair makes me question why you didn't list it)
PK Flash (It can kill...but I'll admit the 1st use I have for it really isn't just trying to hit you)
Nair off stage and Fair if you DI wrong as well...but I'm only going to list these as one (but again Nair is stronger than Wario's or Peach's if you want a range)

Dtilt can set up for kills, PK Fire can set up for kills, a jab can set up for kills (Ness' grab is pretty good overall if you don't look at the standing one), Dair can set up for kills, PK Thunder can set up for kills into itself ^_^

As far as midweight characters go...I'd say Ness is in the top part of it when it comes to KO power...

Charizard can be hard to edgeguard due to multiple jumps and the superarmor on his Up B.

Right I don't see the 2 jumps he has as being helpful to him but whatever...

Squirtle does as well as Ness here. Ness will benefit from the stage more than Charizard, just be careful because Usmash and Utilt will work through platforms. I'd still say RC is your best bet. Does RC make it hard for Ness to recover?

RC is 50/50 when it comes to recovery IMO...

Keep in mind on Smashville trainer has an instant switch, as well as on Lylat, I believe RC, and a couple of others which escape me.

I don't know what you mean by instant switch...well I think I know what you mean...but tell me to make sure...

pk fire only goes a few body lengths, not nearly enough to be considered a threat against any of the pokemon, and you can usually smash DI out of it before you can get hit again. I honestly do not understand why this move keeps being brought up. It cannot be hard to see that this matchup is definately in ptrainer's favor

The move keeps getting brought up because A. when we 1st talked about it people didn't know about Ness' advanced tricks with it, but now it is getting talked about because people assumed that when I say keeping Charizard in PK Fire range they though I was talking about actually using PK Fire...but really I was talking about that range being one of the good ranges Ness can play at...as well as close...

And even if the match is in Ptrainer's favor...there is no way it is a flat out counter like some people are saying...

Falcon and Ness' weight and everyone in between...not too much difference.

Squirtle's dthrow sends you straight up, as soon as he grabs you just mash both sticks straight horizontally away from squirtle; you'll live to really high %'s, it's not hard.

Ness' Dair could help him live it better than some other characters because of how is fall speed works...

However, like they said Falcon lives longer vertically than a lot of characters actually as well (to the point where in Melee he was the best at it (if you only looked at the % needed and not the fact that he could be combo'd to hell and back anyway) but still in Brawl he will live longer than Ganondorf) but yeah still...as far as kill throws/set ups to Charizard's Dtilt goes...Ness' is better...

 

[Tien2500]

I don't see Squirtle living passed 115 even if he is at a bad area when thrown actually...

From the center of FD with DI? I'm pretty sure he can live past 115.

They'll come out quicker if they are coming at the same time...

Eh... what?

Squirtle can't get in freely with Ness because of how much range and power he has in his airs such as Fair where as the plus that Squirtle has isn't a large one...

Not freely but he can get in and once he's in he can do some damage.

And my point of bringing up the others was the fact that the other boards are at least willing to admit to Ness' insane air game as well...

Ness has a great air game. Squirtle's is better though, at least in this matchup.

What does Squirtle have that will keep Ness away from him again? He doesn't have anything like Mario's cape or insane air range + speed like Marth...so what does he have?

I'm still not sure what moves Ness have which will force him to recover low. If Squirt is recovering high he should be alright with his airspeed and all. He also has withdraw (if he still has his second jump) which goes through a lot of attacks. (course he turns around so its bad to use if you only have one jump). The hitbox on waterfall also helps. Basically unless squirtle is reconvering low and how to you force him to do so?

I don't have to get to close to the point where it is risky...I just have to wait for a mess up...which is how you kill in Brawl anyway...

Well if Ness' spacing is perfect, and he's not making any errors and the PT player is making them then Ness probably would have the advantage.

Again...why would I throw out PK Fire unless I see an opening...

Ok well you said you don't have to approach. If you're not approaching, and you're not using your projectiles what exactly are you doing?

Considering how I already gave the tilt and jab reward to Squirtle I won't disagree...but I'll argue about them being at least someone close as well...

Their Utilts are nearly the same move...
There is a difference between their Ftilt...however, I see their Dtilts as sort of different to call...

Don't expect to see Dtilt. Or Utilt. Utilt is very situational and there are very few situations where Dtilt is preferable to ftilt. I think Squirtle's utilt has less knockback so it can combo a few times before you can get out.

Not by that much...considering how even if grabbed I'm not going to be just letting you pummel me freely...god its pretty easy to break out of grabs at mid range to low % you know...

Pretty sure the grab is guaranteed if Squirtle does it right. The timing to force an air break is really difficult.

You miss my point when I said the move has Ness' fastest cool down time for specials...I mean using it as a fake out and getting you to avoid it is to my advantage...

If you're using it as a fakeout you're relying on mistakes. Assuming the PT is playing correctly he'll be ok.

A. if I absorb something there isn't much risk because I could just roll away...B. If you are trying to fake out...the magnet does push you out of the grab range overall with its wind so you do have to get closer so it isn't just a free opening...C. Charizard's Flamethrower isn't on my list of things I'll absorb anyway because the % gained from it sucks like I've said already......

Ok well if you're not going to try and absorb it it isn't worth discussing.

I never said it didn't have the potential to do high damage to lighter characters...it still doesn't really matter because both Ness and Charizard can both rack up damage fast if given the chance...

Well if they're both racking up damage at equal rates that benefits the heavyweight.

But why does that matter if you can only get like one pummel at a time if the Ness knows how to break out fast of pummels fast? Really the only time the lock is deadly on Ness is when a character has a move they can use that will kill after the move...

Can Zard combo this into dilt? Dunno I'll have to check it out. Likely he can't. Charizards isn't that ridiculous because he has to dash but it leaves Ness off the stage plus the damage of the throw and pummels. Squirtle has dthrow depending on the percentages. At lower percentages fthrow off the stage and try for a gimp.

The tail has unlimited priority though...so how is he going to hit that away?

You hit the head.

A. The move moves at an above average speed, B. you can't always see it and learning the move takes muscle memory, for that stuff, C. Actually trying to hit Ness could get you screwed...because that is what the move does at a high level of play...makes it look like Ness is 100% open...

The move is clearly telegraphed. You can't argue against that. Also flamethrower will stop it. Withdraw will protect you. And if you know the range you can punish it. The only way you're hitting is if your opponent screws up.

So you've never tried it in a real match or what?

I've done it a few times. Just mainly for the sake of knowing how to do it. I practiced it, got it down but don't use it that much, especially cause I don't play against Ness that often. Charizards I use regularly.

And it isn't a stock loss for Ness for a number of reasons...A. he will only get one pummel if even that at mid and low %, so the move will only do a very low % of damage per play...and won't last that long because of how Ness will play (making it so Marth can't just freely grab him from far away from the ledge) B. if Marth screws up on the timing Ness get out for free from a air release...

I'm pretty sure Zard forces ground releases and the timing on breaking free from Squirtle's pummels is very strict.

Again the main thing PK Thunder is used for by me is to screw with someone's spacing...so it isn't really always trying to annoy them...as it is just trying to limit them...but whatever...I'm aware of the fact that out of the characters Squirtle is one of hardest to screw with because of his size and speed...even with PKT being 3x larger than him or so ^_^

Yeah Squirtle doesn't really have trouble dealing with projectiles.

I'm not saying they are going to shut down Zard too badly...I'm just saying they are above average in use because Zard is well about as fast as Ness in the air...but he isn't mobile at all for one...and I really don't see me using it when he is one the ground unless I see some after lag because of his running speed...

Charizard should be on the ground as much as possible. In the air it will be annoying. But he can hit it away with nair/fair.

You are aware that Ness could just jump away as well if he shielding it? You can do two of them in one short hop...but you can also rise while doing the 2nd one...

Someone will have to test out if its safe on the powershield. Most aerials aren't against Zard's grab range and his speed should allow him to grab it even with low cool down but someone will have to test this I guess. Charizard also has rock smash and other options against approaches.

PKT2 (I spent like a large part of my time already pointing out that this move is by far better than other moves that have chance kills...and by chance kills I mean things like Ike's Fsmash and Falcon Punch)

It still shouldn't be hitting unless someone messes up.

Bair (Stronger than the ones from Samus, Zamus, and Fox if you want a base)
Dair (Strongest in the game as far as base power to the point where it can kill at 0%, and even the sour is able to kill)
Uair (Again this is = to Wario's speed...oh and they don't have to be in the air...I really don't see why you said that)
Fsmash
Bthrow (the fact that this kills better than Bair makes me question why you didn't list it)
PK Flash (It can kill...but I'll admit the 1st use I have for it really isn't just trying to hit you)
Nair off stage and Fair if you DI wrong as well...but I'm only going to list these as one (but again Nair is stronger than Wario's or Peach's if you want a range)

I said in the air for Uair because its most useful then. Not that it can't KO otherwise. PKflash isn't practical as a kill move. I didn't list bthrow cause I forgot to. Super armor helps protect against offstage KOs.

Dtilt can set up for kills, PK Fire can set up for kills, a jab can set up for kills (Ness' grab is pretty good overall if you don't look at the standing one), Dair can set up for kills, PK Thunder can set up for kills into itself ^_^

As far as midweight characters go...I'd say Ness is in the top part of it when it comes to KO power...

Being in dtilt or jab range isn't ideal for Ness. Ness can kill decently but considering the difference in weight Charizard will definitely have an advantage.

Right I don't see the 2 jumps he has as being helpful to him but whatever...

Two jumps are better than one. Super armor on the Up B is the main thing.

I don't know what you mean by instant switch...well I think I know what you mean...but tell me to make sure...

Its a glitch thingy. If you use Down b on the edge of a moving platform there will be no lag on the end of it.j

 

[T-block]

fasdfasdf this argument is getting silly.

PKT definitely gives Squirtle more issues than it does Charizard. Tien, it's not easy to hit the head with Squirtle if they're moving the thunder correctly. You can't f-air it through the tail. It's not a huge threat though, since Squirtle has the size and manouverability to get around it. You could Water Gun it, but it doesn't really do much good... unless Ness is near the edge and you push him off too lol (no seriously...would this work?) Charizard, on the other hand, doesn't have that. It's stupid to shield or dodge the PKT, but he doesn't have to. F-air's hitbox is big enough to cancel it out (even the no knockback part will nullify the head), so unless it's heading straight back away from you, you're good. As I said, it's really only useful when Charizard is being juggled (and oh god it hurts), or when being edgeguarded. Otherwise, it's relatively unsafe to use unless you're on the other side of a pretty big stage, so I don't see how it can be used to gain control of a match unless you already have it. Rock Smash, on the other hand, works better. It limits where Ness can be, and how he can approach. It's an amazing anti-pressure move thanks to the range of the projectile shards and the fact that it explodes on frame 3, often dealing over 25%. I honestly think Rock Smash wins here. As for PKT2, it doesn't take a whole lot of matchup experience before you stop being surprised by it. I do respect it's power though, and I usually play it safe around it - I only go for the punish if I'm 100% sure it's safe. Keep in mind though if you expect it it's not hard to position yourself correctly, shield it, and then punish.

Squirtle's grab release is not a huge deal. Squirtle's pummel can't force ground breaks, so Ness can air break if he's lucky. More importantly, he doesn't have a good followup. Charizard's is much more devastating. Charizard does have a better chance of getting a grab in. He can force a ground break, and he has a guaranteed d-tilt, which is going to be fresh after all the pummels.

PK Fire can really hurt charizard if he gets hit by it...it can lead to some pretty vicious combos, and it's definitely something to watch out for. Charizard's dash speed helps a lot though. Grounded PK Fire can be power shielded and punished; aerial PK Fire is... nothing special? But whatever, we're not talking about this move ^^

This PSI Magnet thing needs to stop too. I brought it up to support short burst Flamethrower as a good spacing tool against Ness. I thought they didn't absorb because they were afraid of mispredicting. clinton claims it's because it's not worth it. Doesn't matter - point is, Flamethrower is good stuff. Yay

What does Squirtle have that will keep Ness away from him again? He doesn't have anything like Mario's cape or insane air range + speed like Marth...so what does he have?

He's definitely got the speed like Marth, and decent range too. You're underestimating Water Gun as an anti-edgeguard too.

God...Colin is very good IMO...

Is that sarcasm? xD I can't tell, but Colin does seem to know what he's doing. He places pretty high with only Ness at the tournies here.

As for stages, CP Lylat Cruise. Halberd can work too, although I'd definitely go Lylat first if they haven't banned it. Battlefield might not be as great since it hurts Charizard quite a bit in this matchup, but it's not a bad choice. If you notice you're able to get a few grabs on the Ness, you can try Delfino or Castle Siege for the walkoffs. Actually I like Castle Siege as a CP too.

But seriously, can we stop with these massive multi-quote posts? It's stupidly hard to read ._.

 

[_clinton]

From the center of FD with DI? I'm pretty sure he can live past 115.

Ah no...in training mode with DI tested a few times at the center of the stage of FD with a CPU at level 9 because I didn't want to test it by hand (so I'll admit my timing may be a bit off you are free to test it yourself though) he pretty much died at less than 115...in fact it was closer to 105...
Now keep in mind this is training mode...where BThrow is weaker overall...also keep in mind that they have to be grabbed at the half mark of FD...otherwise Bthrow will be weaker than it should be...

Eh... what?

You miss my point of it...around 10 frames for Ness' slowest main killing air isn't that much of a difference and is still quite fast...just timing it right by a bit so that Squirtle's airs being faster won't matter...

Not freely but he can get in and once he's in he can do some damage.

I'm pretty sure the same could be said about Squirtle...

Ness has a great air game. Squirtle's is better though, at least in this matchup.

How? The only plus he has is a small one overall...and Ness' main blind spot in his air game is actually covered quite well in this match up...

I'm still not sure what moves Ness have which will force him to recover low. If Squirt is recovering high he should be alright with his airspeed and all. He also has withdraw (if he still has his second jump) which goes through a lot of attacks. (course he turns around so its bad to use if you only have one jump). The hitbox on waterfall also helps. Basically unless squirtle is reconvering low and how to you force him to do so?

I think I've listed the moves that Ness has that could make Squirtle recover low already...

Ok well you said you don't have to approach. If you're not approaching, and you're not using your projectiles what exactly are you doing?

Waiting for you to make a move and judging how I can use said move so it is hard for you to make said move on me in the 1st place...

Don't expect to see Dtilt. Or Utilt. Utilt is very situational and there are very few situations where Dtilt is preferable to ftilt. I think Squirtle's utilt has less knockback so it can combo a few times before you can get out.

Ness' utilt can combo a few times as well if you are at a low % to the point where it can be hard to avoid...but I guess Squirtle could get in 12% easier than Ness could get in his 14%

Still looking into what works well with their moves...Ness' pivot grab almost links with his utilt perfectly...

Pretty sure the grab is guaranteed if Squirtle does it right. The timing to force an air break is really difficult.

I didn't bring up an air break with Squirtle...

After each break if the Ness knows how to break out of throws right it really makes it any grab release not that fun to do...you really might only get in one pummel per grab at the %s that I brought up...of course that will help keep your moves fresh I guess...if that matters with PTrainer...

Even though it is a sure thing if played right...it still will be kind of annoying to do...knowing that you really might not even add 20% total with all of the pummels and you have to keep moving in a pressured match can make it kind of hard for a person to keep it up...when they have better options...

If you're using it as a fakeout you're relying on mistakes. Assuming the PT is playing correctly he'll be ok.

My point of bringing up things like PK Flash though is to point out that Ness has far more options to make a player make a mistake than what Ptrainer has...

Ok well if you're not going to try and absorb it it isn't worth discussing.

Hell if you throw out Flame thrower I'd rather use PK Thunder and hit you with that during the move's down time instead of PSI Magnet...god PSI Magnet is a very situational move...

The things it does its job well instead of bad like normal are in matches like with Mario (stops fireball approach somewhat), Zelda (makes her approach overall), Pit (somewhat limited though), ROB (barely...if only to remove the good times to use his beam not the random times though), Pikachu (stops his best kill move, and free use of thunder jolt), and Lucario (it is too slow)...

For a lot of characters though...
Luigi I'm pretty sure a short hopped Fireball goes to high for Ness to absorb it on the ground...so canceling out Luigi's anti air move is harder than you think...
lol at absorbing Peach's toad spores
For Bowser it is the same as Charizard
Lol at absorbing Fox and Falco's blaster for 4 or so %
Wolf's would be useful if Ness' magnet was larger so he could stop a short hop blaster...but that is another reason why Lucas' magnet is better I guess...

Well if they're both racking up damage at equal rates that benefits the heavyweight.

Which one ranks up damage more in a better way? The one who's entire movepool links into itself or the one with one or two moves meant for that is my question about that though...I guess that depends on the players...personally I think it is easier for Ness...

Can Zard combo this into dilt? Dunno I'll have to check it out. Likely he can't. Charizards isn't that ridiculous because he has to dash but it leaves Ness off the stage plus the damage of the throw and pummels. Squirtle has dthrow depending on the percentages. At lower percentages fthrow off the stage and try for a gimp.

Zard has a grab release Dtilt...and I've already talked about the regrab thing...but to be fair it is worse for Ness when fighting Zard than Squirtle...but also to be fair...Bowser has worse...and the boards there still see the match as even...

You hit the head.

How is he going to hit the head when the tail is 6x bigger than the head and most Ness' love said tail? (lol at that)

The move is clearly telegraphed. You can't argue against that. Also flamethrower will stop it. Withdraw will protect you. And if you know the range you can punish it. The only way you're hitting is if your opponent screws up.

Flamethrower won't stop it...at least depending on where it is coming from (at the start no...at around the end...yes) and Withdraw can be turned around which can be bad...but if you don't think PKT2 has mind games...please check videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ss6YP6cTfg

You really shouldn't disregard the public service announcement...unless you want to be struck by it and end up like the people in said video ^_^

Yeah Squirtle doesn't really have trouble dealing with projectiles.

PKT is a god sent move though that acts on randomness...so even if he doesn't have issues with projectiles normally...PKT isn't like normal projectiles...and even though Squirtle does have the the right stuff for dealing with a lot of the craziness said move can do...you still shouldn't underestimate it ^_^

Charizard should be on the ground as much as possible. In the air it will be annoying. But he can hit it away with nair/fair.

Anyone's jab can hit the ball away though...if the move was only the ball the move would suck

It still shouldn't be hitting unless someone messes up.

Yes I know...that is why I said it was based off chance...its just better than other moves that require someone to screw up in order to die...because of the annoying part the main thing has as well...

I said in the air for Uair because its most useful then. Not that it can't KO otherwise. PKflash isn't practical as a kill move. I didn't list bthrow cause I forgot to. Super armor helps protect against offstage KOs.

Charizard can only throw out Fly though with out risk of being screwed for it in certain places...
Ness' PKT2 has special frames but I'm still at least willing to admit its large faults in recovery...but overall I think Ness' +s in his recovery do make up for it overall IMO and make his recovery at least 3/5 if I was to rate it...

Being in dtilt or jab range isn't ideal for Ness. Ness can kill decently but considering the difference in weight Charizard will definitely have an advantage.

Dtilt or jab range isn't ideal for Ness but I never said he would freely go into said range...the fact is being in said range is something you should expect to happen and listing Ness' options for it is something that I'm making sure I do...

Two jumps are better than one. Super armor on the Up B is the main thing.

Two jumps aren't better than one when they don't have much vertical distance and are just more meant for straight lined horizontal distance that goes as far as Ness' 2nd jump or so...and I know Super armor on the Up B is the main thing...that is why I didn't say it sucks ^_^

Its a glitch thingy. If you use Down b on the edge of a moving platform there will be no lag on the end of it.j

Thank you...how does he have it on Lylat though? Unless you mean by the tilting of the stage as movement...

Well I can say that I really didn't know that about Ptrainer...

fasdfasdf this argument is getting silly.

That is my fault...I like a little randomness with my serious arguments I guess ^_^

(no seriously...would this work?)

Yep it works if the Ness isn't recovering from the thing...I've been gimped by things like the wind from Link's boomerang (wind/water really can be deadly for Ness and to a point Lucas to deal with if he isn't careful)

But in all fairness...the deadliest winds come from G&W if you are going to compare...because his is vertical...

Charizard, on the other hand, doesn't have that. It's stupid to shield or dodge the PKT, but he doesn't have to. F-air's hitbox is big enough to cancel it out (even the no knockback part will nullify the head), so unless it's heading straight back away from you, you're good. As I said, it's really only useful when Charizard is being juggled (and oh god it hurts), or when being edgeguarded.

Well it is also useful in dealing with defensive game play because like it or not moves do have cool down times...in fact it is the only thing IMO that I feel gives Ness' air game a plus in the Marth match up...

And the main thing I love with PKT is making circles to annoy people...so I really don't know if Charizard's Fair range is enough to deal with that...

Otherwise, it's relatively unsafe to use unless you're on the other side of a pretty big stage, so I don't see how it can be used to gain control of a match unless you already have it. Rock Smash, on the other hand, works better. It limits where Ness can be, and how he can approach. It's an amazing anti-pressure move thanks to the range of the projectile shards and the fact that it explodes on frame 3, often dealing over 25%. I honestly think Rock Smash wins here.

Funny...its the same thing with PK Thunder...it limits where Charizard can be, and how he can approach...
Its also an amazing anti-pressure move thanks to the tail's size and the fact that it can set up well can make it deadly...
As for gaining control of a match...it isn't so much as doing that as it is making sure he doesn't lose control of the match...so I guess I should be clear on that...

As for PKT2, it doesn't take a whole lot of matchup experience before you stop being surprised by it. I do respect it's power though, and I usually play it safe around it - I only go for the punish if I'm 100% sure it's safe. Keep in mind though if you expect it it's not hard to position yourself correctly, shield it, and then punish.

The only time I hit someone who could shield is if there are one of two things going on...either they are close to the ledge...so hitting them could just knock them off and prevent them from countering so much...or their shield is weak...because like I said already...PKT2 is very deadly to shields...

Squirtle's grab release is not a huge deal. Squirtle's pummel can't force ground breaks, so Ness can air break if he's lucky. More importantly, he doesn't have a good followup. Charizard's is much more devastating. Charizard does have a better chance of getting a grab in. He can force a ground break, and he has a guaranteed d-tilt, which is going to be fresh after all the pummels.

Squirtle doesn't force a ground break? I'm pretty sure it does actually...the thing it doesn't have is an auto regrab...

Charizard has a better chance at getting the grab in and with Dtilt makes his thing worse than Marth's overall...but only because he doesn't force an air break if he screws up in the pattern...because they both have 6 frames to work with (unless Charizard's grab is a bit slower than Marth's which I'm sure it isn't) and it can be argued over what follow up is better...but to be fair...the % that Charizard needs to kill with his follow up is actually worse than what Ness needs to kill with his back throw...so adding on to the fact that good Ness' save the back throw for kills only...

Yeah just putting that out...of course with all those pummels only the 1st one in a set counts to the stale moves...

Aerial PK Fire is... nothing special? But whatever, we're not talking about this move ^^

The only reason we were talking about it is because of the moves advanced techs.

But it also has grounded ones as well (nothing like 0 lag landings for punishment though)

This PSI Magnet thing needs to stop too. I brought it up to support short burst Flamethrower as a good spacing tool against Ness. I thought they didn't absorb because they were afraid of mispredicting. clinton claims it's because it's not worth it. Doesn't matter - point is, Flamethrower is good stuff. Yay

I already talked about what I would rather do with this...

He's definitely got the speed like Marth, and decent range too. You're underestimating Water Gun as an anti-edgeguard too.

Water gun makes Ness recover in a certain area...but that said area isn't black and white for where he'll recover from...

But whatever...Squirtle's range isn't as DJed like Ness' so I don't see why his range is good...but I guess him having more speed than Marth shouldn't be something you overlook...whatever though...I already gave the edge guard points to Squirtle a while back vs. Ness and was just trying to point out that Ness' off stage game really isn't something you should overlook and thinking Ness is 100% gimpable is a mistake to make...

Is that sarcasm? xD I can't tell, but Colin does seem to know what he's doing. He places pretty high with only Ness at the tournies here.

It wasn't sarcasm...Colin's Ness is good...god he is good with PK Thunder and loves it like me...he blew me away and made my *** bleed the 1st time we played each other...

But seriously, can we stop with these massive multi-quote posts? It's stupidly hard to read ._.

Sorry...I like to adress each point personally unless I feel I already brought it up...I'll try and cut back on the multi-posts though if it bugs you...

 

[T-block]

It's not a huge deal I guess...just a lot harder to read. I can still address your points without quoting everything.

I'm fairly sure Charizard's f-air can cancel out PKT unless the tail is completely straight and the head is moving away from him, which doesn't do Ness much good. Circles shouldn't be a problem, especially since the hitboxes on f-air are out for a decent amount of time, so your PKT will have to circle back into it. I'm still not seeing your point on limiting where Charizard is. Let's take a neutral position, and you use PKT. I dash towards you. If you make it come at me from behind, I dash towards you and outspeed it. If it's in front of me, short hop f-air has no landing lag, I continue dashing towards you. Making it come from above might work, but you have to basically hit us dead on... his dash speed is amazing.

No, Squirtle's pummel doesn't force a ground break, but it's close. I'm not sure what the window for an air break is, but it can't be more than a few frames. If you're at the centre of the stage, getting grabbed by Charizard at 90% is probably going to kill you. Getting grabbed by Ness isn't going to get Charizard killed until 120% at least.

When I said Water Gun as an anti-edgeguard tool, I meant it as being something to use to avoid being edgeguarded by Ness, not to edgeguard Ness. It's pretty effective if you have height to work with. I thought that's what we were talking about >_> The range on Squirtle's aerials aren't amazing, but he does extend himself out quite a bit on his f-air, and particularly on his b-air. The range is certainly a lot better than Wario's.

 

[Tien2500]

I guess I underestimated the power of Bthrow. Why is it more powerful on certain portions of the stage?

Anyway Squirtle has way better gtfo mover in the air than Ness and his light weight makes him harder to combo in general. So Squirts airgame wins out here. If anyone has the frame data for Squirtle it'd be appreciated if you could point me to it.

Also remember with Zard don't always assume he's coming out at 0%. He may be coming out at mid or higher percentages so comboing may not be feasible.

Other than that I don't think we're cracking any new ground so thats all I have to say about that.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Squirtle vs Ness

Ness's air game can give Squirtles a run for his money, with Ness's Fair outranging everyone of Squirtles Aerial. Squirtle needs to wait and try to get in. Once he does, Ness will feel it. Watch out for his Nair. Offstage, Squirtle can gimp Ness if he is not careful. Just make sure not to get hit by PkT2 offstage. Ness can also gimp you if your not careful. Ness can kill you earlier if he gets a grab. His Bthrow can KO you at low %'s.
All in all, just try to play patiently, and do not get in over your head.

Ivysaur vs Ness, meh :/

Charizard vs Ness
Try to play a defensive game. Ness's Fair is very safe, so its can be hard to counter it.
Usmash, Rock smash, the usual Charizard stuff. Watch out for PK fire and thunder. Charizard's Fair can be really helpful to this matchup. Ness's Dair will threaten you offstage, be wary of it.

Meh, heres my sucky version of a MU summary <_<. I'll try and edit it later if I can.

Also, I feel like we should do a High tier and a mid/low tier every week.

We could do either Diddy/Marth and Bowser/Ike.

 

[_clinton]

It's not a huge deal I guess...just a lot harder to read. I can still address your points without quoting everything.

Ok then...

I'm fairly sure Charizard's f-air can cancel out PKT unless the tail is completely straight and the head is moving away from him, which doesn't do Ness much good.

Um yes it does...part of the fun with PKT is to get sneak attacks in...and you act like I'm just going to openly throw out PK Thunder near your Fair...Charizard is a large target...I can screw around with thunder pretty well...

Circles shouldn't be a problem, especially since the hitboxes on f-air are out for a decent amount of time, so your PKT will have to circle back into it. I'm still not seeing your point on limiting where Charizard is.

Circle's are a problem because you can do more than just a circle...the thing can be spun around 2.5 times or so and with that comes adjusting the position of the head...

Let's take a neutral position, and you use PKT. I dash towards you. If you make it come at me from behind, I dash towards you and outspeed it. If it's in front of me, short hop f-air has no landing lag, I continue dashing towards you. Making it come from above might work, but you have to basically hit us dead on... his dash speed is amazing.

Why would I use PKT in a neutral position?
I'm going to throw it out when A. we are far away, B. We I'm chasing you in the air/elsewhere and my other attacks can't reach you, or C. to punish a move...

No, Squirtle's pummel doesn't force a ground break, but it's close. I'm not sure what the window for an air break is, but it can't be more than a few frames. If you're at the centre of the stage, getting grabbed by Charizard at 90% is probably going to kill you. Getting grabbed by Ness isn't going to get Charizard killed until 120% at least.

Ness can DI Dtilt passed passed 120% at the center of the stage and even close to the edge he can DI it at a little under 120%...of course this is in training mode from where I saw this info...so it is a little less...but still...the point is Ness' kill option out of a grab is around the same thing Charizard has on him...so really which one is better?

When I said Water Gun as an anti-edgeguard tool, I meant it as being something to use to avoid being edgeguarded by Ness, not to edgeguard Ness. It's pretty effective if you have height to work with. I thought that's what we were talking about >_> The range on Squirtle's aerials aren't amazing, but he does extend himself out quite a bit on his f-air, and particularly on his b-air. The range is certainly a lot better than Wario's.

Ok...my mistake with the water gun thing...

However, while Squirtle has a larger aerial range than Wario...he still doesn't have as much risk to go out and try like Wario does IMO...plus he dies at 40% less than Wario as well...

I guess I underestimated the power of Bthrow. Why is it more powerful on certain portions of the stage?

Because of the angle it sends you at...45 degrees

Anyway Squirtle has way better gtfo mover in the air than Ness and his light weight makes him harder to combo in general. So Squirts airgame wins out here. If anyone has the frame data for Squirtle it'd be appreciated if you could point me to it.

Ness is semi hard to combo as well because he is just a little bit more floaty as Squirtle (it might as well be tied), is a mid weight but is the smallest of the mid weight characters in vertical size overall for this game, and has good GTFO moves as well...however, he also has KO air moves...what does Squirtle have other than Fair (which is beat in power compared to Ness')?
What does Squirtle have that are true combos?

Ness has more coverage vertically and horizontally total with his jumps (even if he is a little slower than Squirtle) and he has stall options/a ground to aerial anti approach projectile move with Firebound/PK Fire or PK Thunder again in general...

Also here is proof that Ness is the smallest midweight character...at least by vertical height (although there are errors on this list)

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs37/f/2008/249/3/5/Brawl_Height_Chart_by_drag0nscythe.jpg

Fun fact...a light weight character is the tallest vertically if you can believe it

Also remember with Zard don't always assume he's coming out at 0%. He may be coming out at mid or higher percentages so comboing may not be feasible.

Zard may not always be combo'd to death...but any running away from Ness' little boy rage when he is on him will result in THUNDER doing its job...

Other than that I don't think we're cracking any new ground so thats all I have to say about that.

Right...now we are just taking personal opinion when it comes to things like air games and putting it in the match up ratio...

I'm at least willing to accept that Squirtle's air game is about even with Ness' instead of saying it flat out will lose due to the many plus' Ness has in general...

 

[T-block]

None of us are dissing Ness' air game. He doesn't get dominated by Squirtle, but Squirtle definitely has a bit of an advantage in the air. As for PKT, I was still riding off the idea of you using it to gain control over the match. If you're using it to continue to apply pressure, I agree with you about this move for the most part.

 

[_clinton]

None of us are dissing Ness' air game. He doesn't get dominated by Squirtle, but Squirtle definitely has a bit of an advantage in the air. As for PKT, I was still riding off the idea of you using it to gain control over the match. If you're using it to continue to apply pressure, I agree with you about this move for the most part.

If we are going to argue with him having an advantage by an air game...it isn't going to be anything more than 5%, because pretty much everything Ness has links to his air game and adds to it...

 

[Tien2500]

If we are going to argue with him having an advantage by an air game...it isn't going to be anything more than 5%, because pretty much everything Ness has links to his air game and adds to it...

Yes we are taking personal opinions. This isn't an exact science and there is no way for us currently to "prove" anything. In my opinion Squirtle is better in the air in this matchup. Ness has range on him. Squirtle has speed both movement wise and attack speed and has tighter air control and comboability due to weight/floatiness difference. Ness' aerials can KO but Squirtle shouldn't be getting hit by either a sweetspotter bair or an uair. Maybe nair off the stage.