Pokemon and Chess

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I've seen, on various occasions elsewhere on the web, people mentioning that competitive pokemon has a metagame just as complex, if not more so than chess. I was wondering if any of you here knew if that argument has any significant backing to it and if so, where I might find a link to where the idea is fleshed out and explained. Ever since I saw this comparison mentioned I wanted to know more about it. Can anyone help me out here?

 

[ss118]

Roam more.
No, seriously, check the rating room. That's a good way to see how complex teams can be.
Its more than using Dialga's Roar of Time to take out the Champions pokemon 1 by 1 while switching out to something without having to suffer the charging turn.
MUCH MUCH MORE

 

[Deleted member]

in actuallity, pokemon can have well over thousands of unique pokemon with movsets and teams.
I find playing chess easier on a competitive level. im pretty good at it too

 

[MysticKenji]

That's becuase, much like chess (and the internets), Pokemon is serious business.

Seriously though, some Pokemon can have a ridiculous amount of movesets and uses, creating a MASSIVELY complex metagame.

 

[Aryman]

There is a lot of strategy behind pokemon, but the thing that ruins it is the way luck plays into it. You can;t lose a chess match because of luck. Only skill matters when it comes to chess.

Unless a freak gust of wind blows your set over I guess.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Trust me guys, I know how complex pokemon is, which is exactly why I'm trying to look into this alleged debate further. I used to do some serious netbattling so I'm fully aware of how deep pokemon is, trust I'm not ignorant, and I fully appreciate its complexity. The thing is, as I'm sure you all know, the vast majority of people out there ARE ignorant as to how complex pokemon at a highly competitive level can be, and as such, it is difficult to convince them that pokemon and chess are comparable. That's why I'm asking you guys if you know where I can find a blog, essay, thread, or whatever that really analyzes why pokemon is just as deep as if not deeper that chess.

 

[fluffy]

i think that pokemon isnt that complex. there just fictional japanese monsters that fight each other using turn based moves. it's an rpg and you can give items and train it and all the stuff just like any other rpg game. oh and theres dumb luck involved in it. the only complex part is maybe the ev training and the iv factor. but other than that, pokemon is just something created for little kids.

chess on the other hand has proven itself to be one of...if not the best and most complex game invented ever since the 16th century. now thats something to awe about. competitive chess players can think 20-50 moves in advance.

in the end pokemon is a something made for little kids. its not that complex imo

 

[chubb-o-wub]

Now that I think about it, chess is well... one of the most strategitic games EVER, and pokemon is like rock-paper-scissor.

 

[fluffy]

Now that I think about it, chess is well... one of the most strategitic games EVER, and pokemon is like rock-paper-scissor.

true, true.

theres no comparison between pokemon and chess

 

[Shiri]

Now that I think about it, chess is well... one of the most strategitic games EVER, and pokemon is like rock-paper-scissor.

WOW. I WANT TO SUE YOU FOR STEALING MY WORDS FROM ME.

SOMEBODY STOP THIS MAN.

 

[Chill]

To say that pokemon is like rock-paper-scissors couldn't be furthur from the truth. The term is used to easily explain the advantages one type has over the other (fire,grass,water) but does not fully explain the entire battle system.

As was mentioned many pokemon have mulitple movesets and beneficial nautures. With a single pokemon like Garchomp you can use a Adamant, Jolly, or Naive nature. You can equip it with leftovers, life orb, choice scarf, band or another item. To top it off you have no idea which set your opponent is using until they make thier move and even then they may use a different item or move just to throw you off.With rock-paper-scissors you have only three choices in fighting your "battle". Pokemon offers thousands of different options and available creatures. How is that the same?

No frozen, I don't have any links.

 

[Zook]

Sure, Pokemon may have been intended to be a children's game, but with how much extra stuff Game Freak put into the game (EVs, IVs, Egg Moves, Abilities, etc.), the metagame is infinately complex.

I think that most people think that chess is so much more complex than pokemon, is because it's compairing what is known to be the best strategy game of all time to a video game.

I'd like to see chess players make something as game-changing as the Tyraniboah (in the Advance Gen).

 

[Deleted member]

chess has tiers too. knights are broken

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

It's saddening how utterly full of phail and ignorance fluffy, chubb, and Shiri's posts were. If you're going to try to argue that chess is so godly and pokemon is garbage, atleast have some dignity and try to back it up.

Look at Chill, now THAT's someone who knows what he's talking about. Suck you don't have any links though. Thanks anyway.

 

[Aryman]

To say that pokemon is like rock-paper-scissors couldn't be furthur from the truth. The term is used to easily explain the advantages one type has over the other (fire,grass,water) but does not fully explain the entire battle system.

As was mentioned many pokemon have mulitple movesets and beneficial nautures. With a single pokemon like Garchomp you can use a Adamant, Jolly, or Naive nature. You can equip it with leftovers, life orb, choice scarf, band or another item. To top it off you have no idea which set your opponent is using until they make thier move and even then they may use a different item or move just to throw you off.With rock-paper-scissors you have only three choices in fighting your "battle". Pokemon offers thousands of different options and available creatures. How is that the same?

No frozen, I don't have any links.

Couldn't agree with you more. Predicting your opponent's next move (will he switch? attack? does he have some attack I don't know about? how much damage will it do? is his stat high enough? does my pokemon have enough hp? what are the weather conditions? could his attack miss? what's its probability? ) is often quite a task, much like in chess. Planning ahead is also a big factor.

Far from "rock-paper-scissors," in my opinion.

Oh and I found something, though it's about the Pokemon card game (which is close enough I think):
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sgmindmaster.html

 

[Shiri]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Nobody's saying chess > Pokémon.

They're just two totally different things. You can't compare them.

Let me try that again. YOU CAN'T COMPARE THEM.

People who try to make a comparison between chess and Pokémon fail to see the general purposes and methodologies of the games; instead, they read too much into the situations. In short (very short) chess is a game of field dominance and power positioning, where Pokémon is a game of matchups and counter-predictions. Pokémon's major competitive qualities (the two I listed) have ALMOST NO BEARING in chess. AT ALL.

Anyway, I'm not going to go into some huge argument about it. Nobody's saying Pokémon is dumb and chess is the best thing ever, but they're on two different levels and playing fields altogether. And this is not addressed to anyone in this thread (I had to say that since I know a few people here that will start crying if they think this is directed towards them), but the people who generally start the Pokémon/chess discussions (and I've seen/been in my fair share) try to equate the mental requirements of chess with Pokémon (and again, one isn't greater than the other, but they have different requirements for the different methodologies for success) to make the two look like the same dignified animal (and in turn, equate themselves, as Pokémon players, with chess players), which they certainly are not.

Pokémon is Pokémon.

Chess is chess.

I CHECKMATE YOUR SNORLAX LOL

 

[fluffy]

It's saddening how utterly full of phail and ignorance fluffy, chubb, and Shiri's posts were. If you're going to try to argue that chess is so godly and pokemon is garbage, atleast have some dignity and try to back it up.

First of all, none of us are ignorant just because we don't agree with you. I'm sorry but the world doesn't revolve around you. Not everyone has to believe what you believe in. Who the **** said that that pokemon is garbage? You did in your post.

Reread my post again and again until you get it in your hard head.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

First of all, none of us are ignorant just because we don't agree with you. I'm sorry but the world doesn't revolve around you. Not everyone has to believe what you believe in. Who the **** said that that pokemon is garbage? You did in your post.

Reread my post again and again until you get it in your hard head.

Rofl yes, you certainly are ignorant if you claim that pokemon is a game that "isn't complex at all", was "made for little kids", and "is just like rock paper scissors" like you claimed. Saying all those things asserts that YOU believe pokemon to be a garbage game competitively, which certainly isn't true GTFO out of here you moron, and try backing up your arguments next time. I never said you were ignorant because you don't agree with me, I said you were ignorant because your posts proved you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.

@ Shiri: I actually disagree that the two do not share competitive qualities. Pokemon is most certainly a game build around counter-predictions. Being able to predict your opponents next move, based on what moves their current pokemon might know, what move you might use, what moves you CAN use, what item you're holding, who you might switch to, what item you're holding, etc. is a HUGE part of the game.

Sure the two games are different, but saying they're totally incomparable is ridiculous.

 

[Shiri]

Hey, I hate to do this, but please read what I'm posting carefully.

@ Shiri: I actually disagree that the two do not share competitive qualities. Pokemon is most certainly a game build around counter-predictions. Being able to predict your opponents next move, based on what moves their current pokemon might know, what move you might use, what moves you CAN use, what item you're holding, who you might switch to, what item you're holding, etc. is a HUGE part of the game.

Pokémon is a game of matchups and counter-predictions.

I think I give up. Thanks for the discussion though, guys.

 

[fluffy]

lol

And frozenflame, I do have a clear understanding of what i was talking about. I can't say much about you though.

I don't need to back any of these because it's pretty much given. Also I DO play pokemon so there's no reason why i would call pokemon 'garbage'. I absolutely adore pokemon. Look at my sig! Don't tell me to GTFO. GG

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Yeah I screwed up shiri my bad. What I meant to say was that making counter-predictions is just a large a part of competitive chess as it is in pokemon. Chess requires that players think many ply ahead of the current game status, which in order to do so requires "foresight" on the part of the player. Based on the choices you've seen your opponent make so far in any given game, or maybe even past games, a chess player needs to predict what positions and formations their opponent will attempt to set up and counter them appropriately.

That's what I wanted to say, and THEN follow it up with the little explanation of why counter-predictions a a big part of pokemon. I was trying to draw a comparison to help people understand that the two games are in fact comparable. They aren't worlds apart at all.

And fluffy, you're a contradictory piece of ****. Look at yourself:

Now that I think about it, chess is well... one of the most strategitic games EVER, and pokemon is like rock-paper-scissor.

true, true.

theres no comparison between pokemon and chess

think that pokemon isnt that complex. there just fictional japanese monsters that fight each other using turn based moves. it's an rpg and you can give items and train it and all the stuff just like any other rpg game. oh and theres dumb luck involved in it. the only complex part is maybe the ev training and the iv factor. but other than that, pokemon is just something created for little kids.

chess on the other hand has proven itself to be one of...if not the best and most complex game invented ever since the 16th century. now thats something to awe about. competitive chess players can think 20-50 moves in advance.

in the end pokemon is a something made for little kids. its not that complex imo

First, you agree that pokemon is just like paper scissors, which it most certainly isn't. THEN you go on to say that pokemon is just a game made for little kids and isn't complex at all. That's two insulting remarks you've made toward pokemon, yet you claim to adore it? That's ****ed up.

 

[fluffy]

Yea you would say that.

Just because I'm a fan doesn't mean i have to worship it. Chill out. At least I didn't call it garbage like you :/

You need to get laid.

 

[Best101]

Chess is a really complicated game. There are many, many possible positions there are in chess. But it's pretty hard to compare Pokemon to chess though

 

[commonyoshi]

I really dont think the two of them can be compared.

But saying Rock Paper Scissors is a "simple" game is false. I've gotten 20-0'ed before by a person who could predict every single move I made.

I think that chess is superior though.

 

[Saturnight]

please Chess is an equal game... both players have the same amount of pieces with the same "powers" you can imagine every possible move... meanwhile in pokemon is the most chaotic game (relative to chess) in the world !! 500 pokemon choices, and a lot of more atacks... Critical hits, percent chances... please...

The Chess is only comparable with Starcraft ! :D

 

[fluffy]

magic the gathering is more chaotic than pokemon. 15,000+ cards. i mean it was around since 1993.

starcraft is definatley a game that shows pure skill, not luck. same with chess. this is why there is no comparison.

 

[Zook]

Actually, there is luck involved in chess. Eventually, someone will make an error that could make or break the game. That sounds like luck to me.

And, fluffy, you obviously have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Your first post in this thread was dedicated to arguing that pokemon is a 'game for little children,' then, as soon as frozenflame751 argues your opinion, your defense is: 'I play pokemon.' -_-

If you want to have even a trace of credibility in this thread, BACK UP YOUR POSTS.

 

[IC3R]

Is there a difference?

What is difference?

It is nothing...

Nothing, but an illusion...

Constant conflict over something that is truly nonexistant...

Such a waste of time and energy...

It should be common knowledge that everything is linked, like sausages...

There is no difference...



I felt like such a hippie this post...

 

[fluffy]

Actually, there is luck involved in chess. Eventually, someone will make an error that could make or break the game. That sounds like luck to me.

And, fluffy, you obviously have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Your first post in this thread was dedicated to arguing that pokemon is a 'game for little children,' then, as soon as frozenflame751 argues your opinion, your defense is: 'I play pokemon.' -_-

If you want to have even a trace of credibility in this thread, BACK UP YOUR POSTS.

I'm having a different view here. Someone making a mistake has nothing to do with luck. If the person was skillful enough, he or she wouldn't have made the mistake that costed her the game. Luck is more of a coin flip IMO.

I have a clear understanding of what I'm talking about, again. I don't need to back up anything if it is overabundant. Pokemon is a game designed for children. I play pokemon so there is no reason why I would call it garbage. Tell me what I have to back up.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Yea you would say that.

Just because I'm a fan doesn't mean i have to worship it. Chill out. At least I didn't call it garbage like you :/

You need to get laid.

I never said you had to worship it, I was just saying that it doesn;t make any sense for you to claim to be a fan of the game and then proceed to talk **** about it, and then when someone says that your claims are bogus, your defense is "no everything I say is totally valid because I'm a fan of pokemon and play it so I can't be biased therefore I can't be wrong", which is total bull****. And for the record, I never called it garbage. I said THIS:

It's saddening how utterly full of phail and ignorance fluffy, chubb, and Shiri's posts were. If you're going to try to argue that chess is so godly and pokemon is garbage, atleast have some dignity and try to back it up.

Read the bold. I never claimed pokemon was garbage, I said that if YOU were going to attempt to argue that it was you should at least try and put some strong reasoning behind it, which you've continually failed to do.

Oh and I love how you throw in that little quip at the end there. Insecure much? Sounds to me like YOU'RE the one who needs to get laid. It's really pathetic how you have to stoop so low as to not only assault me personally about something completely off topic, but something that neither person can prove nor disprove. It's laughable how sad that is really.

 

[Zook]

have a clear understanding of what I'm talking about, again. I don't need to back up anything if it is overabundant. Pokemon is a game designed for children. I play pokemon so there is no reason why I would call it garbage. Tell me what I have to back up.

So your arguement is that you know what you're talking about? I never accused you of calling it garbage, that was frozenflame. And if you really do know what you were talking about, please site some of your reasons, for crying out loud. Quotes work well.

And, frozenflame, fluffy never even came close to calling it garbage, or saying that chest is godly. All he said was that pokemon is a game design for children. Which, in fact, it is, but due to the incredible amount of extra stuff they added to the game (custom EV distrabution, Egg Moves, etc.), Gamefreak, whether unknowingly or not, created a near infinately complex game.

 

[fluffy]

Sorry but I do get laid. A lot actually. No lie.

frozenflame, I play the game but that doesn't effin mean that I can't talk **** about it fool. When i talk **** about it, it's the truth. I can't understand how you would compare the game of pokemon to chess. Saying how saddening people are for not agreeing with you (yes you said ignorance too and you did name 3 people who didn't agree with you) is lame. Just as lame as you for loving pokemon and hating people who don't necessarily adore it as much as you.

I've played competitive pokemon for only about 2 months now. I understood all of the mechanics in a week. I find how amazing it is to be able to beat people who has played the game for years. The game is easy and yet fun. I've played chess for about 10 years and I'm pretty **** sure that I can't beat professional chess players because the game is much more complex than pokemon. And I bet you're going to be like "Back it up" when i clearly did so. Don't be so ignorant at your own faults. You probably don't even play the game much. Eat a bag of *****.

Yeah I screwed up shiri my bad.

Well then, stop screwing up.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Sorry but I do get laid. A lot actually. No lie.

That absolutely screams insecurity. Why are you so compelled to convince us that you're so superior to us because you allegedly "get laid a lot"? The fact that you are even saying stuff like that is a clear indicator that you've never gotten laid and are clearly insecure about it. It's ok dude, really, I don't care about your love life, nor should I. It has nothing to do with the debate at hand, so it's probably better that we leave it out, seeing as how you spouting out meaningless lines about how much of a pimp you are isn't going to do anything but make you look like a fool.

frozenflame, I play the game but that doesn't effin mean that I can't talk **** about it fool. When i talk **** about it, it's the truth. I can't understand how you would compare the game of pokemon to chess. Saying how saddening people are for not agreeing with you (yes you said ignorance too and you did name 3 people who didn't agree with you) is lame. Just as lame as you for loving pokemon and hating people who don't necessarily adore it as much as you.

I don't think you realize WHY I called people ignorant. It wasn't because they simply disagreed with me, it was because they had absolutely NO supporting arguments at that point, and just came in and said "oh pokemon is a kiddy game and has no strategy and can't be compared to chess at all because it's so easy" etc. etc. Those type of arguments are clearly procured from ignorance, because pokemon does have a very deep competitive metagame. The situation is almost identical to the situation SSBM was in when we were initially trying to convince the people running EVO to let SSBM join the roster. Many of the hardcore players of the more classic fighting games like street fighter, guilty gear, Tekken, etc. claimed SSBM was just a kiddy game, wasn't competitive at all, and had no business being compared to other competitive fighters. Once people were enlightened to the fact that SSBM is in fact a very deep and competitive game, look at what happened; SSBM is now in the EVO tournaments. The same concept applies to pokemon and how it is a deceptively deep game with a veil of "kiddyness".

I wasn't hating on people just because they don't adore pokemon. I was hating on people for bashing on pokemon with absolutely no sound reasoning. You have every right to not like pokemon, but if you're going to come in here and bash pokemon (which basically makes you a troll, since this thread was directed at people who AGREED with me, since I was simply asking if anyone had a link or something of the like, not to debate the issue), atleast back your points up with some sound reasoning and evidence, which you still CONTINUE to fail at doing.

I've played competitive pokemon for only about 2 months now. I understood all of the mechanics in a week. I find how amazing it is to be able to beat people who has played the game for years. The game is easy and yet fun. I've played chess for about 10 years and I'm pretty **** sure that I can't beat professional chess players because the game is much more complex than pokemon. And I bet you're going to be like "Back it up" when i clearly did so. Don't be so ignorant at your own faults. You probably don't even play the game much. Eat a bag of *****.

Oh yeah? Pokemon is so easy that you can just walk all over the veterans huh? Alright then, hit me up with a link or video or something when you go win a large competitive pokemon tournament. Just because you beat a couple scrubs on net battle doesn't mean ****. I'm pretty **** sure you couldn't beat professional pokemon players. You're just talking our of your ***. The last few lines prove it too. I bolded them for you. Wtf are you saying? "Don't be so ignorant at your own faults?" That's a grammatical nightmare. What game are you even talking about in the next sentence? Eat a bag of *****? How old are you again? 10? Yeah, I'm sure you get laid ALL the time with that level of maturity.

 

[fluffy]

Very nice. How long did it take you reply to a post? Like 2 days?

The 3 people who you called arrogant happened to be the ones who disagreed with you. Coincidence?
No one was bashing on pokemon. You take it offensive when someone says something about pokemon that displeases you.

since this thread was directed at people who AGREED with me

Stop thinking too highly of yourself. People who disagree with you don't necessarily mean you can just attack them.

like street fighter, guilty gear, Tekken, etc. claimed SSBM was just a kiddy game

THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT GAMES. Stop comparing.

About playing professional gamers, I'm pretty sure I can beat SOME of the ones that play pokemon. I've had over 1,000 wifi battles from numerous sites like smogon and gamefaqs so I'm pretty experienced. I'm not saying that I'm better than "professional pokemon players", but I'm pretty good if i say so myself. If you want I can have battles with you which you will most likely refuse. Now playing professionals in chess is I guarantee...A LOT harder. It's friggin chess. Here go read about it because you don't know much of the game since you compare it with pokemon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess
Btw idk about you, but getting laid is a huge plus. Go ahead and take another week to reply.

 

[SenorPresidente]

magic the gathering is more chaotic than pokemon. 15,000+ cards. i mean it was around since 1993.

starcraft is definatley a game that shows pure skill, not luck. same with chess. this is why there is no comparison.

Well in magic the gathering there exists different metagames. i haven't play in ages but type 2 metagame only allows the 3 most recent sets extendedn only allows certain sets etc.

and yeah sadly a large portion of pokemon is luck. comparing pokemon and chess is really ba

 

[lowradiation8989]

frozenflame, you're a ****ing moron, so stfu before you piss everyone off on smashboards, myself included

fluffy is a true veteran at pokemon (i've battled him 1,000 times at least), so don't go mocking the things he's been saying.......i'm sure he's got much more experience than you

it seems to me that all of your assertions pertaining to pokemon, chess, and other video games are plain bull****, so just stop talking

ps - you seriously need to get laid

pps - you stole my old avatar, so go kill yourself

 

[fluffy]

yes we had numerous battles in the past haha. not to mention your 500+ hours in your diamond game.

i grow tired of this argument frozenflame. i guess it's fair to say that we both had our faults :/

 

[Chill]

Alright, several people have been flaming in this topic. If you want to have a debate about pokemons competitive qualities do so in a civilized and intelligent manner.

 

[lowradiation8989]

Alright, several people have been flaming in this topic. If you want to have a debate about pokemons competitive qualities do so in a civilized and intelligent manner.

you're right......i'm sorry chill......i love you, lol!

 

[Zook]

you're right......i'm sorry chill......i love you, lol!

No you don't, I do. Right, Chill?

Now that I think about it, this debate is like compairing blackberries with raspberries. ._.