PMBR: Suggestions and Feedback

[Zekersaurus]

First of all, thank you. You brought back my favorite character from melee and gave him some much needed buffs.

This thread is pretty straight forward. We will discuss Mewtwo and give you guys our feedback on the character so that he can be the best character he can be in the next release. I will be updating this thread every so often and any good ideas or major concerns will be posted on the first page. I will try to condense as much as possible.

Now, let me start this off. Personally, I think you guys did great job with Mewtwo overall but there are a few issues I have with the character.

1. Shadowball

• Yes, the move was improved overall but I would like to see more up and down movement when on his uncharged shadowballs so that you can hit opponents who are lower to the ground. I can understand if this was intentional though. You wouldn't want his spacing to be problematic.

2. SideB and DownB

• The hitbox for his SideB is kind of awkward. You have to be in just the right position in order for you to land the move. It's a little annoying. As for disable, it's more situational than useful. It's range isn't that great. Lol, Snake has that move in the form of a projectile. Also, it's not very fast and it can easily go over a short or crouching character's head. Now, I do have a few suggestions for how you could improve these two moves but why improve them when you can combine them?
• Honestly, having both moves is a little redundant. Since Confusion is the more versatile move I say remove disable and keep confusion but give it some of the properties of disable. Maybe on the ground it could stun someone like disable and using it while they are stunned would set them up for a juggle like it currently does. In the air it could function just like confusion does now. Alternatively, landing confusion could simply stun someone as disable does but holding forward during the last frames of the move would knock them back and holding up would start the juggle.
• Of course you would need think of something for His DownB. I'm trying to stay away from creative input and just focus on what I feel is necessary to change.

3. Levitate

• I think it's a great addition to the character that opens up a lot of possibilities but it's very easy to accidentally levitate when you want to simply use your second jump. Pressing down and jump is inconsequential with any other character but potentially fatal for Mewtwo. I personally can't think of way around this at this time. I don't even know if it's that big of deal. Just a minor frustration. It may be just one of those things you get the hang of over time.

Anyway, this was just my opinion on the character and a few major issues that I had. I'm sure many other players would like share their thoughts on the character. I hope you take at look at this thread and take some our feedback into consideration when making the next release of Project M.

Thank you.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

- I think something with adding articles or something has to due with the change in Shadow Ball's trajectory. I could be wrong, the old trajectory would come in handy though.

- The side-B & down-B thing is the only complaint I have. The moves are for the most part, fairly situational. If one of them was replaced/buffed that would be nice, but I also wouldn't mind if it was left the same. Meh...

- The up-B suggestion you made would be extremely broken. You'd be able to tech chase anything WITH anything. You'd be able to teleport again and again, leaving your opponent with 7 frames to punish you. This makes Mewtwo's range even wider, you could punish potentially...anything. That would also give you the ability to wavedash out of teleport (I'd really like that though ^_^), Mewtwo's mobility would be off the charts. Teleport is fine as is, it has been buffed enough.

- Hover's input isn't a problem. Incorrect input isn't a vaild reason to make a change to a character. It's your job as a player to master the inputs, in and outs of your character. That too is fine.

I think Mewtwo is fine, solid as hell to be exact. I don't want more buffs besides the Side/DownB situation and/or wavedashing out of teleport capabilites. And even that isn't needed. He got his range, mobility, and weight all buffed. And to add on top of that he was given hovering. Hovering greatly improves his shield pressure, combo ability, edguarding, and his overall metagame. People are asking for these buffs when they haven't fully explored the character in the slightest. He has just recently been introduced make use of what has been given to us already.

 

[Zekersaurus]

- I think something with adding articles or something has to due with the change in Shadow Ball's trajectory. I could be wrong, the old trajectory would come in handy though.

- The side-B & down-B thing is the only complaint I have. The moves are for the most part, fairly situational. If one of them was replaced/buffed that would be nice, but I also wouldn't mind if it was left the same. Meh...

- The up-B suggestion you made would be extremely broken. You'd be able to tech chase anything WITH anything. You'd be able to teleport again and again, leaving your opponent with 7 frames to punish you. This makes Mewtwo's range even wider, you could punish potentially...anything. That would also give you the ability to wavedash out of teleport (I'd really like that though ^_^), Mewtwo's mobility would be off the charts. Teleport is fine as is, it has been buffed enough.

- Hover's input isn't a problem. Incorrect input isn't a vaild reason to make a change to a character. It's your job as a player to master the inputs, in and outs of your character. That too is fine.

I think Mewtwo is fine, solid as hell to be exact. I don't want more buffs besides the Side/DownB situation and/or wavedashing out of teleport capabilites. And even that isn't needed. He got his range, mobility, and weight all buffed. And to add on top of that he was given hovering. Hovering greatly improves his shield pressure, combo ability, edguarding, and his overall metagame. People are asking for these buffs when they haven't fully explored the character in the slightest. He has just recently been introduced make use of what has been given to us already.

The teleport thing? I'll give you that. I made a point to mention that it could be broken but I wasn't really looking a the big picture... As for the other thing, you can "master the movement" all you want but human mistakes are still inevitable even that highest level of competitive play. That being said, if you screw up it's your fault so suck it up right? But you see the problem is if you just so happen to accidentally press down and jump at the same time with peach it's usually not a big deal. You have another jump left. If you do that with any other character it's of no consequence what so ever because they will just perform their second jump as they normally would, but if you do that with Mewtwo you could easily DIE. Do you not see a problem with that? I mean, holding down and jump for whatever reason is never really a good or bad decision unless you're playing with Mewtwo.

Now, your whole "It's your job as a player to master the inputs" still stands but I don't see why such a minor quality of life type tweak can't be implemented to ease a bit of frustration. It's not like it's specifically for me.I highly doubt I am the only one who has had this problem.

 

[G13_Flux]

in all honesty, as much as confusion and disable are sort of awkward to land and dont have particularly great hitboxes, they would be a tad broken if they were any easier to land. realistically, each of them are guarenteed set ups. Correct me if im wrong, but it seems me like confusion has set KB? if not the KB scaling is extremely small, and will literally always set up into at least an up air. disable can also be comboed into in the air which is where its better use as a semi spike comes into play imo. regardless, mewtwo has a pretty amazing WD, and a throw and tilts that pretty frequently set up for tech chases. with good tech chasing skills, its not too hard to set up into at all given the space you can cover with his WD. i will say that some characters being able to crouch under disable is a little messed up though. maybe its better for MU diversity though.

 

[Zekersaurus]

I think Mewtwo is fine, solid as hell to be exact. I don't want more buffs besides the Side/DownB situation and/or wavedashing out of teleport capabilites. And even that isn't needed. He got his range, mobility, and weight all buffed. And to add on top of that he was given hovering. Hovering greatly improves his shield pressure, combo ability, edguarding, and his overall metagame. People are asking for these buffs when they haven't fully explored the character in the slightest. He has just recently been introduced make use of what has been given to us already.

I never said he wasn't viable but he certainly isn't without flaw. I buff or two wouldn't hurt... but it's not really about buffing him at all. Honestly, it's hard to tell what Mewtwo needs, if anything. The entire game hasn't been fully explored in the slightest. What I'm saying is, the character should be made as enjoyable as it possibly can. A character should still be balanced of course, but it's moves and mechanics should act in a way that makes sense and is more or less the way player expects them to act. Something along those lines. Not saying Mewtwo isn't enjoyable but there is always room for improvement.

Anyway, regardless of my complaints I feel a thread like this is necessary for every character and for the benefit of any player.

in all honesty, as much as confusion and disable are sort of awkward to land and dont have particularly great hitboxes, they would be a tad broken if they were any easier to land. realistically, each of them are guarenteed set ups. Correct me if im wrong, but it seems me like confusion has set KB? if not the KB scaling is extremely small, and will literally always set up into at least an up air. disable can also be comboed into in the air which is where its better use as a semi spike comes into play imo. regardless, mewtwo has a pretty amazing WD, and a throw and tilts that pretty frequently set up for tech chases. with good tech chasing skills, its not too hard to set up into at all given the space you can cover with his WD. i will say that some characters being able to crouch under disable is a little messed up though. maybe its better for MU diversity though.

Broken? possibly. If you land a disable, it could lead to a guaranteed charged Up or Down smash at 70 or 80% that's definitely bad news but I think they should at least improve the hitbox that it can hit opponents who are lower to the ground. The way it functions when your opponent is in the air should remain unchanged otherwise it would be to easy to gimp people.

As, for the confusion, you have to be really delicate if you buff that one. It feels just so awkward... but on the other hand it does go through shields and sets up for a juggle.

 

[G13_Flux]

Yeah that was the one thing I said about disable that I thought could be changed, the high placed hit box.

You know, a decent change to confusion might be to modify the way it affects your momentum in the air. It seems to stop vertical momentum momentarily while awkwardly sorta preserving horizontal momentum after a split second. Regardless of the actually nature of its attributes, maybe if we just did away with the momentum modifier and made it so that the move could progress naturally without changing your momentum, it would feel much more free flowing and easy to connect with. Maybe the overall animation could be shortened a little bit too to make it look like a cleaner move

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I never said he was without flaw but after using him for a while I hardly ever SD because of Hover. The PMBR also made it possible to DJ out of Hover at the same rate you would hover cancel to compensate for hovering SDs. There isn't a reason for them to change it really. You're absolutely right, the game hasn't been explored fully and that's even more reason to wait before trying to buff the character. I agree with you though, yes community feedback is great, and important in making sure a character is brought to his/her highest level of play. My feedback is that outside of side & down b he's a complete character. That's just how I feel, but of course others will feel differently on the matter.

 

[G13_Flux]

No I agree with you I don't think they need to touch mewtwo at all aside from adjustments to those exact two moves

 

[Magma Dolphin]

Are there any concerns with Mewtwo's down-b not hitting certain characters on the ground? For example, standing Mewtwo's down-b will not hit standing Kirby. This removes Mewtwo's down-b from even being a grounded option in the match-up such that the only way Kirby will be stunned is if Mewtwo is off stage or jumping through the stage when used.

 

[CORY]

what if... disable was redone to work like a counter and would keep that character from using the countered move for so many seconds?

THINK OF THE STUPIDLY SICK EDGEGUARDS!

ok, i thought about it, it's probably just too much...

 

[MetaKnight0]

lower his weight to 97 from 90

hes got way too much survivability in my opinion

 

[G13_Flux]

^lmfao lower it from 90 to 97? Nice math haha. Although I know u really mean 87. Realistically 3 weight points isn't going to do that much. That's sheik and peach weight, which is still relatively light. don't forget mewtwo also has a pretty big size, especially for someone of a lighter weight class. I think his weight is fine.

 

[turtletank]

I don't see much use for his down/side B either, I usually find there are better options when there is an opportunity to use them.

I'm not asking for a replacement just yet however, some interesting new meta could develop from these moves and I'd feel silly.

 

[MetaKnight0]

^lmfao lower it from 90 to 97? Nice math haha. Although I know u really mean 87. Realistically 3 weight points isn't going to do that much. That's sheik and peach weight, which is still relatively light. don't forget mewtwo also has a pretty big size, especially for someone of a lighter weight class. I think his weight is fine.

no i just grammar mistake

mewtwo's current weight is 97 im saying lower it to 90

http://imgur.com/yKLmy9G

 

[G13_Flux]

Ohhhh that's actually much higher than I thought his weight was. So they raised his weight from 85 in melee to 97 in pm.. just a tad lighter than Mario. that's a pretty good buff. For his size he definitely needed the weight increase, but I guess only time will tell if it's too good. Atm I'm not sure if I'd say it's too high or not.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I find the side b much more useful than down b,like others said some characters can't really be even hit by it.

I think he should get a completely new down b that wouldn't be to op.

 

[Zekersaurus]

what if... disable was redone to work like a counter and would keep that character from using the countered move for so many seconds?

THINK OF THE STUPIDLY SICK EDGEGUARDS!

ok, i thought about it, it's probably just too much...

That thin line between useful and broken... Won't lie though. The thought of it did make me salivate.

 

[Rikana]

The zig zag movement of shadowball is actually random.

 

[PurDi]

I've got a few ideas I'd like to touch on with Mewtwo actually. I've been playing him constantly since 3.0 was released; he feels like a really solid character, like... extremely solid. He's got an insane punish game, pretty awesome zoning tools, and pokegodlike survivability to boot.

That being said, I actually don't feel like he needs much of a buff (and he might even need a few nerfs in the long run [teleport and hover together seem OP with practice]).

• Confusion is great as is, it's just situational, and there's nothing wrong with that.
• Disable, on the other hand, could use a little something. I wouldn't change the move itself, but maybe just give the player the ability to angle it like we see with a lot of ftilts and fsmashes. That would allow you to hit crouched opponents, giving Mewtwo not only the ability to hit shorter characters, but also a really viable CC counter.
• Now, what I came here to say actually is that I think there are a few hitboxes of his that could use some tweaks, namely his aerial tail attacks: bair and uair specifically. The top of his bair hits the same direction the rest of it does even though the flick at that point is going the opposite direction. It just feels off. Likewise, with uair, the top of it sends your opponent at a weirdly horizontal angle, but not even backwards... it just feels wrong taking basic physics into account. Also, my friends complain about multi-bair ledgeguards, but that may not be an actual problem, just complaining. But in lieu of them, maybe a slight reduction on bair's KBG would suffice (or is that counter-intuitive?).

And, sorry Zeke, but just don't hold down while double jumping... It's frustrating, I know, but it's not impossible to stop SD'ing because of it. It's similar to losing your jump trying to uair the ledge as one of the earthbound kids by accidentally DJC'ing...

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Firstly, I think the PM team did a fantastic job with Mewtwo. That being said, I do think there should be a few minor tweaks. Specifically to his Down and Side B moves.

I would say to only increase the verticle hitbox of Disable so it can hit lower characters. Its a great tech chase and roll prediction move.

For Confusion, the hit box feels really odd. It has a slight push when it whiffs and its rather slow to start and has a long endlag. What I would like to see is it be mostly used as a combo tool for when your in the air. For instance a combo potential if not DI'd correctly could be (at low to mid percents) Dtilt > Utilt > Short hop or full jump > Side B > Second jump > Uair or Fair.

I wouldn't mind if Confusion had a long start up but short endlag while on the ground, but I would like it alot if it had a quick start up and low endlag while in the air.

I feel like the move is very difficult to use during combos and is also difficult to set up a combo. I'm a believer that no move should go unused and I think Confusion will slowly fall into that catagory.

 

[Ryusuta]

As a tap jump user, my biggest problem with Levitate is the fact that you HAVE to use the buttons for your first jump. What i would really like is for you to be able to buffer a tap jump into levitation.

 

[U-Throw]

Well, has anyone else noticed that Mewtwo's Final Smash still deals aura damage during the rise of the move. I know it's small, but it still bugs me really bad. I was thinking they could change it to something more Mewtwo-ish, namely darkness. Also, I think Confusion is fine as it is. Just because it feels awkward doesn't mean it's not a good move. I often like to use it when my (in-experienced) brother tries to attack me head on, and then follow it up with disable the second he lands so I can use a down smash or U-Throw (hence my name). Also, I think disable is mostly fine. My only concern is that it doesn't hit Kirby. I think they should increase it's vertical range simply because it might be little hard to angle a down special, since you would probably angle it down a lot, considering you already have your hand on the down button. And, speaking of down buttons, has anyone else noticed a considerable delay before a character performs a down-move or a crouch. I find it very annoying, especially when I want to drop through platforms or use my down throw. The only move this doesn't seem to affect is his down-smash. I do remember one update, maybe it was 3.0 or the update that came right before 3.0, where this wasn't an issue, but 3.02 seems to somehow have re-instated it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

no one's noticed that the Final Smash still uses Aura because no one uses items

I imagine that it's very low on their priority list.

 

[iamanobody]

people trashing on disable? the move does not need to be changed, it's good as it is. i might agree with the idea about short/crouching characters, though.
it's
1. an air stall
2. an attack with a disjointed hitbox
3. a fantastic tech chase tool; the best option if you're fairly certain they'll tech a certain way
4. the only way to guaranteed hit with shadow ball in many situations, or set up a dair>shadow ball or dair>fair combo
5. the only move he has in midair that hits harshly to the side in the front; upair is nice but it doesn't have disable's trajectory, knockback, or a disjointed hitbox(and bair is only usable from behind). it's also usable off the edge as an edge guard tool because it stalls him in midair so you don't lose too much height
6. his best punisher, period. it's even usable out of shield.
7. a gimping tool because it has a high set knockback to the side, and again, is usable in midair
8. it may be a bug, but you can hit with disable if you read that your opponent won't tech.

disable is a great move now. it is certainly not easy to use because it's laggy, slow, and its range isn't THAT great, but considering that now you can turn around with it and also hit with it from behind, it's much easier to use than it was before. in my opinion it's a move you'll need to give time to figure out ways to use it. just having an air stall that is faster than confusion is a good thing, especially since sometimes confusion doesn't seem to give a boost.

i personally think that before changes are made to this character other than bug fixes and minor functionality fixes/tweaks, unless it becomes obvious he is broken or very underpowered you should give time for a metagame to develop. mewtwo is a very complicated character now and there is a ton of stuff that i am not seeing anyone do yet. there are game-changing techniques that i do not see anyone using yet(going to check the video thread again now, i'll edit this out if i do). especially giving buffs to a complex character who already appears to be doing well after just coming out is probably a mistake if you ask me.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

The teleport thing? I'll give you that. I made a point to mention that it could be broken but I wasn't really looking a the big picture... As for the other thing, you can "master the movement" all you want but human mistakes are still inevitable even that highest level of competitive play. That being said, if you screw up it's your fault so suck it up right? But you see the problem is if you just so happen to accidentally press down and jump at the same time with peach it's usually not a big deal. You have another jump left. If you do that with any other character it's of no consequence what so ever because they will just perform their second jump as they normally would, but if you do that with Mewtwo you could easily DIE. Do you not see a problem with that? I mean, holding down and jump for whatever reason is never really a good or bad decision unless you're playing with Mewtwo.

They have already made a safeguard in the event that you accidentally press down and jump at the same time, if you release the jump button and/or the analog stick, Mewtwo will exit his hover, and your double jump is still intact. And this definitely works, I have used it on many occasions. Sometimes it was accidental, but it also a good move to extend your recovery in a slightly unpredictable way.

 

[Zekk]

I'm pretty sure Mewtwo is good for the most part but we could accept some changes

Mew taunt he sees mew then tries to grab him and he disapears
New up throw animation make it more flashy

 

[AstraEDM]

I agree that he's a complete character aside from side/down B. My main complaint with side b is that I'd like for it to function as a useful command grab a la bowser or diddy. Easiest way to do this would be removing the little float that happens when you side b in the air, so he's falling as he uses the move. Down b i have less gripes with, but i wouldn't mind if it was changed to something less situational or just left as is. I'll agree that it's a great techchasing and gimping option, but I only really use it once per match tops unless i'm baiting somebody.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

I agree that he's a complete character aside from side/down B. My main complaint with side b is that I'd like for it to function as a useful command grab a la bowser or diddy. Easiest way to do this would be removing the little float that happens when you side b in the air, so he's falling as he uses the move. Down b i have less gripes with, but i wouldn't mind if it was changed to something less situational or just left as is. I'll agree that it's a great techchasing and gimping option, but I only really use it once per match tops unless i'm baiting somebody.

A lot of the characters in this game have moves that can only be used in specific situations, but have great merit when properly executed, so I would recommend that we stop complaining about moves unless we think that they NEED to be changed, not just to make it more convenient for the player. Mewtwo is already a really good character, and to make him any easier to use would be, in my opinion, a mistake.

 

[AstraEDM]

A lot of the characters in this game have moves that can only be used in specific situations, but have great merit when properly executed, so I would recommend that we stop complaining about moves unless we think that they NEED to be changed, not just to make it more convenient for the player. Mewtwo is already a really good character, and to make him any easier to use would be, in my opinion, a mistake.

very fair point actually. i guess it is going to come down to how all the characters are going to be balanced in the final product.

 

[Praxis]

I agree that he's a complete character aside from side/down B. My main complaint with side b is that I'd like for it to function as a useful command grab a la bowser or diddy. Easiest way to do this would be removing the little float that happens when you side b in the air, so he's falling as he uses the move. Down b i have less gripes with, but i wouldn't mind if it was changed to something less situational or just left as is. I'll agree that it's a great techchasing and gimping option, but I only really use it once per match tops unless i'm baiting somebody.

If you input float, then side-B and release float, you won't get the little pop on startup.

 

[AstraEDM]

If you input float, then side-B and release float, you won't get the little pop on startup.

Ah, i'd heard that but never really thought to implement it. I'll have to see how applicable that is.

 

[jordanm43444]

Maybe give Squirtle the glasses as a Alt, I know he can get them by pressing B during his UpTaunt but I just feel like they should be a alt instead .-. probobaly just me though

 

[victinivcreate1]

Some buffs I think should be implemented in the next update
1. In the Pokemon games. Mewtwo has a base speed stat of 130. Thats the highest of any pokemon thats been in Smash. Yet he is very when running. I know Mewtwo is supposed to be a predominantly aerial fighter, since he has Hover and can act out of Teleport if he's in mid air, but a dash speed increase would be nice. Maybe around Mario's speed?

2. Disable having more range. In turn, give it extra ending lag.

3. Confusion's grab hitbox being larger.

A glide. Cuz in da ferst pokeemahn moovy he glyded thru da skye wih hiz cloned pokeemahn.

 

[AstraEDM]

Some buffs I think should be implemented in the next update
1. In the Pokemon games. Mewtwo has a base speed stat of 130. Thats the highest of any pokemon thats been in Smash. Yet he is very when running. I know Mewtwo is supposed to be a predominantly aerial fighter, since he has Hover and can act out of Teleport if he's in mid air, but a dash speed increase would be nice. Maybe around Mario's speed?

2. Disable having more range. In turn, give it extra ending lag.

3. Confusion's grab hitbox being larger.

A glide. Cuz in da ferst pokeemahn moovy he glyded thru da skye wih hiz cloned pokeemahn.

i'm less concerned with disable's horizontal range, it's supposed to be a mad hard punish when you can get in close
vertical range, predominantly downward would be nice, though, to make the move actually useful in matchups like pika, squirtle, etc.

a higher dash speed isn't really necessary, mewtwo's mobility is ridiculously good as it is and his long wavedash more than compensates for his low running speed.