PM Kirby Video Archive + Review and Critique

[OmegaMuffin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpF7DoYULLk

Tell me how bad I am and ways to improve.

 

[Shenanigan]

I was always told by Kirby's in the skype group to fast fall the first 2 hits into grab and dtilt since it was a pretty decent option. I mean the first 2 hits and then immediately crouching is pretty underrated. I use it all the time. In case you didn't know. You can crouch samus's grab and some attacks.

Oh two hits of fair into down tilt is fine against characters who are too tall to grab ducking Kirby. And I guess by extension two hits of fair into grab is a mixup, although i wouldn't call it a good one. But against most characters you will get grabbed using either option. And yes I know you can duck Samus's grab lol

 

[bubbaking]

Well, 3 hits of fair are pretty safe too, and it generally beats CC, 'cause of the 4th landing hit. I like to use 2 hits when I'm bringing down someone from the air, like after fthrow or something.

Lolz, Duck is not the best Samus in the world. That would be Plup. Unless you're talking about PM, in which case, the best player would still not be Duck. It would be ESAM (or Plup ).

 

[Shenanigan]

'cause of the 4th landing hit.

Wait what?

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

I'm pretty sure that is a melee only thing.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh really? I never checked/noticed. Well, in any case, I've never been punished for a SHFFL'd fair, even when the opponent was fully trying to CC beforehand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpF7DoYULLk

Tell me how bad I am and ways to improve.

1:00 - Uh...why did you fair? Why DIDN'T you bair or something that actually covered you?

I only really watched the first match. It's kinda late and I'm tired, so I don't really have the usual in-depth analysis for you that I usually do, but what I noticed is that you were never really particularly threatening at any point during the match. You also kinda made bad combo choices and questionable ones at neutral (like some of those leaping Inhales and a couple hail-mary DAs).

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Oh really? I never checked/noticed. Well, in any case, I've never been punished for a SHFFL'd fair, even when the opponent was fully trying to CC beforehand.

1:00 - Uh...why did you fair? Why DIDN'T you bair or something that actually covered you?

I only really watched the first match. It's kinda late and I'm tired, so I don't really have the usual in-depth analysis for you that I usually do, but what I noticed is that you were never really particularly threatening at any point during the match. You also kinda made bad combo choices and questionable ones at neutral (like some of those leaping Inhales and a couple hail-mary DAs).

Technical flub lol I'm not sure what I was going for.

The one inhale I can think of was when he was on the left platform? If that's the one, I was reading the roll. But he didn't really have a reason to do so, now that I think about it. Randy DAs were probably off platforms for movement. I appreciate what critique you do have to offer though lol

EDIT: I just rewatched the first match. It's full of very cringe-worthy decisions on my part. Wish I could tell you what I was thinking, I kinda just threw that game away

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao-d3dV24vg

Tell me how bad my fundimentals are lol.

I'm aware that my punish game is very weak, my reads need work, I go for a lot of unsafe options and I need to exercise patience as well as playing better defense. I have gotten a bit better since this video but it's only been a month. The only things I was really happy with in this set was my movement and the marth match-up.

Oh and my edge-guarding has gotten better.

 

[Shenanigan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao-d3dV24vg

Tell me how bad my fundimentals are lol.

I'm aware that my punish game is very weak, my reads need work, I go for a lot of unsafe options and I need to exercise patience as well as playing better defense. I have gotten a bit better since this video but it's only been a month. The only things I was really happy with in this set was my movement and the marth match-up.

Oh and my edge-guarding has gotten better.

Well you covered most of it lol. I'm just gonna talk about the marth game since I know more about that matchup. You should crouch and poke with down tilt a lot more. In general I find it's better to be on the ground against marth because as soon as you're in the air he can just run at you and swat you with his sword and there's nothing you can do about it because of kirby's poor aerial mobility. Edgeguarding marth high can be difficult, but if he goes low you can just grab ledge and then drop down and bair to trade with his up b (at higher percents you may have to tech off the stage or risk getting stage spiked).

One other thing i noticed is that you're getting stuck in shield for a split second after you L cancel. Just let go of the L button slightly faster.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

Yeah that sounds about right. And I've found that wavedashing out of shield to grab marth is one of my ideal situations. I don't have much trouble with Marth as long as I'm carefull. And I suppose invincible edge drop back air is a decent way to deal with Marth or roy, just a bit more risky than on ike.

 

[Shenanigan]

Yeah that sounds about right. And I've found that wavedashing out of shield to grab marth is one of my ideal situations. I don't have much trouble with Marth as long as I'm carefull. And I suppose invincible edge drop back air is a decent way to deal with Marth or roy, just a bit more risky than on ike.

You actually don't even have to be invincible against Marth surprisingly.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

You actually don't even have to be invincible against Marth surprisingly.

You just have to trade then? Good to know. I think my best option is just to refresh invincibility and edge hog, at least that's safer.

 

[bubbaking]

I believe Kirby's dtilt hitbox is actually bigger than his hurtbox. That and WD grab OoS are pretty much your best tools in the Marth MU.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

I'm actually enjoying the marth match up a bit now! However, if I get grabbed, it's just awful.

 

[FreeGamer]

Which is why you should duck whenever you aren't moving around.

 

[bubbaking]

Also, Marth's throws are a DI mix-up, but you shouldn't be getting too messed up off of them. Remember, you need to DI down AND away to avoid all of the true follow-ups.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

I'd rather DI in to avoid f-throw to tipper f-smash though. Yeah I'll take the hit but a weak f-smash isn't as concerning.

Edit: This is in regards to low percents.

 

[Shenanigan]

Two sets from my most recent tournament. Ended up winning both but would still love any advice/critique anyone may have

 

[bubbaking]

@ Shenanigan : Only watched the first match of the first set. Here's my analysis of it:

Right off the bat, I notice you go for a lot of burst options from far away to close distance quickly. One problem with that is that it can be reacted to and punished. This Link didn't do that much, but better opponents will.

If I were you, I'd get accustomed to WDing OoS more. It's very handy for shielding projectiles and instantly moving in to close space. A lot of times, you tried to jump around them and just got hit when you could have shielded and WD'd OoS.

Also, these commentators did not know what they were talking about. Idk what kind impression you've left on your region, but they were definitely biased in favor of Kirby, saying things like Link can't get combos on Kirby and whatnot.

0:06 - Like this wasn't the best move. Link could have aerial'd, tilted, or thrown a bomb or 'rang to stuff/punish this...

0:09 - ...like he did here. That DA was from too far away.

0:26 - Good crouch.

2:33 - Not a good sideways upB. Too far away and easy to react to/cover, which is why it got stuffed.

2:35 - This one, too.

2:46 - That was actually a good side upB, and I think you should try to do more like this. Bait out a punishable action and then put yourself in the punishing position with upB. You can do that on the ground, too, with DA.

3:07 - Nice try! I think what Kirbies tend to do at this point is jump up and aim for the re-Inhale to seal the deal.

3:32 - This is NOT how side upB should be used. It's not a great approach tool, not in projectile-heavy MUs against chars with big hitboxes. I know you really want to get in so you don't have to worry about taking too much damage from camping, but at this distance, you have to patient. It's better to dash > shield > WD or jump OoS then to attempt a DA or upB sideways from this distance. Most of these attempts got blown up. Luckily for you, this Link isn't that great at capitalizing off of bomb hits or you would have been comboed hard or KO'd.

3:43 - Another really bad side upB. If you really wanted to follow the roll, DA would have been a better choice because it starts up much faster and is harder for opponents to deal with, especially if they like to jump like this Link. Again, this Link could have capitalized off that boomerang hit, but he seems more focused on pulling out more projectiles than on actually hitting you.

In short, you should shield and WD OoS more to deal with projectiles, and you need to DA and side upB much less, especially side upB. Think about how you use them; they shouldn't only be used to close space (since they're actually somewhat bad at doing that safely). DA's pretty good at catching jumps and rolls and upB sideways is good at punishing baited actions while you're in the air. I do like your crouch game, though!

I'd rather DI in to avoid f-throw to tipper f-smash though. Yeah I'll take the hit but a weak f-smash isn't as concerning.

Edit: This is in regards to low percents.

No offense, but that's a bit of a scrubby mentality. First off, even if you DI in, Marth can reposition himself to tipper you with pivot fsmash. Secondly, holding in, especially at low %'s, will get you comboed hard by Marth. Where you could have gotten away with no additional damage after the throw, or maybe a single hit with OK DI, you will end up eating two or three additional fairs plus bad positioning. Worst case scenario, you could even end up being spiked into a really bad position. The rule of thumb is that you hold away at low %'s for anti-combo DI and then you can start holding in at high %'s for survival DI.

 

[Shenanigan]

@ Shenanigan : Only watched the first match of the first set. Here's my analysis of it:

Right off the bat, I notice you go for a lot of burst options from far away to close distance quickly. One problem with that is that it can be reacted to and punished. This Link didn't do that much, but better opponents will.

If I were you, I'd get accustomed to WDing OoS more. It's very handy for shielding projectiles and instantly moving in to close space. A lot of times, you tried to jump around them and just got hit when you could have shielded and WD'd OoS.

Also, these commentators did not know what they were talking about. Idk what kind impression you've left on your region, but they were definitely biased in favor of Kirby, saying things like Link can't get combos on Kirby and whatnot.

0:06 - Like this wasn't the best move. Link could have aerial'd, tilted, or thrown a bomb or 'rang to stuff/punish this...

0:09 - ...like he did here. That DA was from too far away.

0:26 - Good crouch.

2:33 - Not a good sideways upB. Too far away and easy to react to/cover, which is why it got stuffed.

2:35 - This one, too.

2:46 - That was actually a good side upB, and I think you should try to do more like this. Bait out a punishable action and then put yourself in the punishing position with upB. You can do that on the ground, too, with DA.

3:07 - Nice try! I think what Kirbies tend to do at this point is jump up and aim for the re-Inhale to seal the deal.

3:32 - This is NOT how side upB should be used. It's not a great approach tool, not in projectile-heavy MUs against chars with big hitboxes. I know you really want to get in so you don't have to worry about taking too much damage from camping, but at this distance, you have to patient. It's better to dash > shield > WD or jump OoS then to attempt a DA or upB sideways from this distance. Most of these attempts got blown up. Luckily for you, this Link isn't that great at capitalizing off of bomb hits or you would have been comboed hard or KO'd.

3:43 - Another really bad side upB. If you really wanted to follow the roll, DA would have been a better choice because it starts up much faster and is harder for opponents to deal with, especially if they like to jump like this Link. Again, this Link could have capitalized off that boomerang hit, but he seems more focused on pulling out more projectiles than on actually hitting you.

In short, you should shield and WD OoS more to deal with projectiles, and you need to DA and side upB much less, especially side upB. Think about how you use them; they shouldn't only be used to close space (since they're actually somewhat bad at doing that safely). DA's pretty good at catching jumps and rolls and upB sideways is good at punishing baited actions while you're in the air. I do like your crouch game, though!


No offense, but that's a bit of a scrubby mentality. First off, even if you DI in, Marth can reposition himself to tipper you with pivot fsmash. Secondly, holding in, especially at low %'s, will get you comboed hard by Marth. Where you could have gotten away with no additional damage after the throw, or maybe a single hit with OK DI, you will end up eating two or three additional fairs plus bad positioning. Worst case scenario, you could even end up being spiked into a really bad position. The rule of thumb is that you hold away at low %'s for anti-combo DI and then you can start holding in at high %'s for survival DI.

Thanks for the advice! I'll be sure to keep it in mind until it becomes habitual. That failed kirbycide I actually did mean to go for the reswallow but I accidentally hit a instead of b. Regarding commentators, somehow people in my region are convinced Kirby is essentially immune to combos, among many, many misconceptions they have about him. It probably has a lot to do with my rapid improvement as a player. I try and stop misinformation where I can, but I'm only one guy.

Edit: When Marth gets a grab at low percents, there is no "correct" DI. In leads to getting faired two or three times, while down and away leads to getting regrabbed or tipper f-smashed. At mid and high percents down and away prevents any followups.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

No offense, but that's a bit of a scrubby mentality. First off, even if you DI in, Marth can reposition himself to tipper you with pivot fsmash. Secondly, holding in, especially at low %'s, will get you comboed hard by Marth. Where you could have gotten away with no additional damage after the throw, or maybe a single hit with OK DI, you will end up eating two or three additional fairs plus bad positioning. Worst case scenario, you could even end up being spiked into a really bad position. The rule of thumb is that you hold away at low %'s for anti-combo DI and then you can start holding in at high %'s for survival DI.

Edit: When Marth gets a grab at low percents, there is no "correct" DI. In leads to getting faired two or three times, while down and away leads to getting regrabbed or tipper f-smashed. At mid and high percents down and away prevents any followups.

^This.

I understand how DI works, I've also fought enough marths to know that DI in at low percents and potentially getting comboed is better than potentially dying at 40%. Thanks for explaining for me, Shenanigan.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

http://www.twitch.tv/cosmash/v/9016481 match starts at 01:29:00

Even though I lost, I was happy with this set overall. This was a match against one of our PR players, DanComboz. I made too many little mistakes but I had fun while playing this set.

 

[FreeGamer]

When you jumped up and ate an F-Smash while trying to F-Air him, I'm almost certain you could have done Inhale and secured a Kirbycide on him. Aside from that, I like what I see. ^_^

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

There were so many little mistakes, like when I went for an up-smash against his recovery when I should have f-smashed only to follow it up witha charged f-smash when I should have f-tilted or d-tilted. But it was such a fun set I kind of didn't care too much XD

 

[bubbaking]

Whipped out Kirby against Malachi's Sheik a couple weeks ago. He's one of the best players in the region, so I'm happy that I could take out his Sheik, but then he bopped me with Peach. That MU just seemed impossible... Well, in any case, if someone could please critique my play, I would greatly appreciate it.

Bubbaking vs Malachi

I brought out Kirby game 2 around 6:30.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

I really liked the patience and the crouch-dashing. You cut off his option to use needles in the nuetral and forced him to approach. The hammer kill was clean and the washdash into d-tilt is super safe. I'd like to have seen more f-smash out of crouch cancel, you had a few moments where that would have been a safe punish.

This just a quickie review, may be back with more to say

Also, where's the video of the peach? I haven't seen that MU enough to know what to do.

 

[bubbaking]

Thanks a lot! Can't wait to see what more you have to say.

The stream cut off right after the second game ended, but I think the last game was still recorded so it's up to whenever the TO decides to upload it (I ripped this one off the stream myself and uploaded it). Believe me, though, when I say that you won't learn anything from that Peach match. That was my first time ever doing that MU and it wasn't pretty. I got destroyed.

 

[dg-pilz-e]

http://www.twitch.tv/anjosmash/v/13465784

Hey guys i got into the stream setup finally and I would LOVE some critique

I'm on at 30:48 and i'm playing against a fox.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

http://www.twitch.tv/anjosmash/v/13465784

Hey guys i got into the stream setup finally and I would LOVE some critique

I'm on at 30:48 and i'm playing against a fox.

So I have a few things to say, but the most important things are that I think you rely on inhale a bit too much and you need to go for grabs and learn the tech chase out of downthrow against spacies. Inhale is a good tool but it's also a very punishable move, I'd say combo'ing into inhale is the best option. Jab reset to inhale and up tilt to inhale are both good and simple options. If you can learn to grab when appropriate and downthrow tech chase, you wont have to deal with the spacie's amazing crouch cancelling. I'd say that's more important with falco but fox also has a devistating punish game out of his crouch cancel.


The fox match up can be pretty hard and I think your stage pick made it even harder. I personally love taking fox to green hill or fountian of dreams, which he banned, but dreamland or battlefield would have also been better picks. Delfino allows fox to space you out with lasers a lot easier and run in for a grab, nair, or up-smash. Your best strategy against fox is to play defensively but up close, you don't want to charge him but you also don't want to give him breathing room because fox benefits from distance more than you do. If you play on smaller stages, he's going to be more inclined to approach which is what you want him to do. Approaching with kirby is hard, especially if you can't get in a safe dash attack or grab. Space out with shffl'd bairs or fairs, which can lead into a grab or another follow up. Only dash attack if you can go through them. As soon as they learn the spacing on dash attack, it's really easy to get grabbed so dash attacking through them makes it a lot more safe. The same can be said for aerials. Another thing to keep in mind is that kirby doesn't land too easily against a character like fox, sometimes your best option is to land away from him and reset to nuetral.

I'm sure there's more but right nows that's what's really on my mind. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them!

 

[dg-pilz-e]

Yea I went through the video and realized that, It was some nerves but I do think i go for Inhale too much in my playstyle.

Thanks for the tips i'll work on those right away!
How would you say my movement was? Is there more i should be doing?

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

I wasn't really noticing any technical errors with your movement but you did go for some unsafe options out of your dash dances. A good safe approach to try is dashing into sheild or down tilt. Down tilt will get you out of a lot of bad spots, like when you're dashing in on fox and he's closing in faster, down tilt or shield and roll or wavedash out of shield.

 

[DS27]

I would like some critique about my kirby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeEafFsiq7Q

 

[Shenanigan]

I would like some critique about my kirby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeEafFsiq7Q

You're coming down with rock way too much. GnW is one of the best characters at punishing it, as he has two very strong moves that can kill kirby pretty early and cover both drift options. The one time I think you should use rock in this matchup is as an edgeguard. It will armor through GnW's up b til very high percents, is relatively easy to place due to his linear recovery, and has the capability to kill him quite early relative to any other move kirby has:

At m1:52, if you grab the ledge he's dead.

You seem to be struggling to deal with down tilt a lot, and while I haven't had much success with that myself, fair has enough range to punish it (with proper timing).

You also let him get away with several dairs that probably weren't safe. Nair out of shield is quick enough to punish it in my experience. If GnW just runs at you and dairs, run away pivot grab is a good option because it outranges that ridiculous landing hitbox (sorry I can't find a video example right now).

You did a lot of good things (several I plan to try my next set against GnW). If you want some footage to watch for ideas, here's another set of mine (in addition to the one linked above):

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

https://youtu.be/AczJhCRwU9c
Just wanted to showcase some games with one of my favorite players to play against, DanComboz.
Just doing it for funsies and not really asking for advice. Any advice is welcome, however.

 

[Ark5712]

Something different here, hope y'all will permit it. I'm a Kirby and Ivysaur co-main, and was looking for some critique as to my Ivy play in this set. Though I really enjoy the ditto, I didn't feel like my Kirby was on point that day. Just wanted some opinions on what I did right/wrong, and what Kirby doesn't like while playing against Ivysaur. I've played the matchup form both sides, but want to hear some other people's opinions and criticisms.

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

Defensive Ivysaur can be hard to approach as Kirby. That being said, you should also try to maintain stage control. You may have been a bit to comfortable on that ledge. I also noticed that he was able to approach with cutter dash pretty consistently, in addition to playing defense, you should also have a hit box ready to stuff that approach.... Ermmmm that's all I have for the moment lol. I just know that if you play the spacing game well and set up a wall of projectiles and disjoints, Kirby can't do much to get in.

 

[Shenanigan]

Something different here, hope y'all will permit it. I'm a Kirby and Ivysaur co-main, and was looking for some critique as to my Ivy play in this set. Though I really enjoy the ditto, I didn't feel like my Kirby was on point that day. Just wanted some opinions on what I did right/wrong, and what Kirby doesn't like while playing against Ivysaur. I've played the matchup form both sides, but want to hear some other people's opinions and criticisms.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkev1HbtVtY&list=PLxLAH86IfdJu8csCA50G0LRVLGtSQ6BN7&index=6

I know we talked about it a little bit after the match, but now that I've gotten to watch it again I've noticed a couple of things:

1. You need to space your aerials better (mostly back air). You got shield grabbed a lot, and I know Ivy has the range to avoid that happening.
2. Tethering to ledge after I've had time to grab it is a death sentence. There were several times you chose to go immediately to ledge instead of double jumping back to stage. With down air and up air you can make it extremely difficult for me to punish you coming down from above me, and even if I do happen to get you it's a lot more difficult than back air from the ledge.
3. I honestly don't know if it's possible, but you really need to edgeguard Kirby. Me living to 150+ until you land a raw kill move is not a good look. Maybe when I start final cutter you could shield, then choose between up b out of shield (if I use vertical cutter) and jumping out to punish with down b or up air (if I use the horizontal one above you). Sorry I can't be of more help here, it honestly looked and felt really easy for me to get back to stage.
4. Maybe counter pick different stages? While GHZ may be a good Ivy stage, it also gives me exactly what I want with that high ceiling. Almost all my deaths were off the top, while yours were mostly off the side. I'd try somewhere like PS2, where the ceiling is super low so I die early, but still gives you lots of stage space.
5. I really had no idea what to do against your ledge options on Yoshi's Island, good stuff. Also that up b to solarbeam combo was cool.

If you want some footage to watch for ideas, here's some JZ vs. Tetraflora (she only goes Kirby game three, but I'm sure there's more videos of them somewhere):

Also if anyone watches that set and has any tip for the Kirby player (me), please share.

 

[Ark5712]

Solid input, thanks guys. Now I'm gonna take this info and wad it up and throw it away and thrash you in the ditto next time, Shenanigans.

Naw, in all seriousness, I'm really looking forward to the next time we play. Gonna lab out some stuff and do some more research, thanks for all the input.

 

[Shenanigan]

Solid input, thanks guys. Now I'm gonna take this info and wad it up and throw it away and thrash you in the ditto next time, Shenanigans.

Naw, in all seriousness, I'm really looking forward to the next time we play. Gonna lab out some stuff and do some more research, thanks for all the input.

Alright well based on how long it took us to play the first time, see you next summer!

 

[Hi I'm Urban]

Kirby dittos can be intense, you'll never see so many hammers and stones.