PM 3.6 Change ideas?

Evilzpet

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#1
Any thoughts?

Personally I think PSI Magnet should come out faster. Right now its 8 frames, while Lucas's is 5 and spacie shine is 1. Lowering it to 5 to match Lucas would be perfect imo.

Also I'd like a larger window for lagless grounded PK Fire. Right now it's a 1 frame window to execute and too hard to pull off consistently, despite being a useful tech when performed correctly. I think increasing the window to 3 or 4 frames would make it feasible to consistently pull off with practice.
 

Boiko

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#2
The only thing confirmed for Ness in 3.6 is that he'll be able to sweet spot backwards again. Beyond that, it is highly, highly, highly unlikely that anything else is changing.

I do thing his magnet being faster would be nice, but his biggest weakness is his recovery. That's where he needs the most help. EXFire isn't really THAT great that it warrants a buff.
 
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#3
Backwards sweetspot and that is it. Because every time I dip too far under Pokémon Stadium 2 and miss the ledge I die a little bit inside. I think he's totally fine otherwise, to be honest. A quicker magnet would be cool, but not really entirely necessary. I think they've done a fine job with Ness and unless the rest of the cast has some really game changing buffs/nerfs soon (unlikely) he won't really see anything aside from bug fixes, cosmetic changes, and tiny modifications and normalizations as the game goes on.
 

Hona

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#5
Thank god they're adding the backwards sweetspot back in.

I thought it would be cool if they allowed him to cancel pk thunder into a falco-like burst movement with less range, killpower, and lag. I'm not sure how realistic the idea is, but it would allow him to mix-up his recovery without completely replacing his current method. I also agree with less endlag on pkt2, I don't see what warrants it being so long.

As for other 3.6 changes (or for any future patch), I also think faster mag would be a great, like 5 frames to match Lucas. He'd also benefit from being able to alter the angle he throws aerial PK fire. I'd love to be able to choose between the standard angle, or the Brawl Lucas one where it goes straight forward, with the sacrifice of not causing the fire pillar.

Another thing that would be wonderful is a way an effecient way for Ness to refresh invincibility on the ledge. SD Remix Ness can do so with magnet (though I don't remember exactly how.) It'd help when it came to edgeguarding more efficiently.
 

Boiko

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#6
I've thought of numerous ways to buff his recovery:

Being able to shorten it, would help immensely for recovering low or just mixing up your recovery. Removing landing lag is absolutely needed. Seriously, 20 frames is actually ridiculous. How many moves comes out in 20 frames? Oh, almost every single one in the game, gotcha. PK Thunder should either be intangible or act similarly to Lucas' for the first ten frames it's out. That way projectiles don't just take it away for free. His hitbox should be moved farther in front of him, or just made bigger overall, like a large circle around him. It's absolutely tiny, and thus loses to almost every move in the game. He shouldn't go into free fall if the bolt is taken away. Armor while he's charging.

Most of these are unrealistic, but I think what's absolutely necessary are these three:
Less landing lag so he can safely mix up his recovery, not have to sweet spot the ledge always
A larger hit box complete with disjoint so he doesn't lose to every move in the game
PK Thunder intangibility on the first few frames

I think with those three components, he would go from having arguably the worst recovery in the game, to a solid mid tier recovery. He's still stupid easy to edge guard due to how long his charge time is, and how it doesn't have a hit box, like Fox. But now at least he can safely get back to stage.

@ Hona Hona LJC wavedash back grab ledge is the fastest way to do it. You can also late LJC into an edge cancelled bair to grab ledge quickly too. Not super efficient, but not the worst. I'd leave this alone if it meant his recovery was better tbh. Same with PK Fire buff. I don't mind the angle. I think it's actually pretty good. Sure, more options is always better, but it's not needed.

Basically, faster magnet, better recovery, enhanced angle on back throw, and Ness is golden. Seriously, that is NOT a kill throw.
 

MWEX

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#7
Make spinshot its old distance, and make sonic's fair a possible spike.

Oops, ness thread
 
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Hona

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#9
@ Boiko Boiko Ah, wishful thinking I suppose. I just feel like a few innovations in Ness' character design could make him a more considerable threat during a match.

I agree with your pkt changes, as long as the disjoint wouldn't be anything crazy. Now that I think about, Ness being able to pkt again if the bolt hits something else would be pretty reasonable.
 

Boiko

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#10
Yeah, he's pretty flowcharty:
Fair/Spaced Pk Fire > Grab > Down Throw > React to DI > etc. etc.

Take a look at the frame data for Fox's charge during his up b. Note the circle around him. That should be the size of Ness' during PKT2, IMO.
 
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#13
I always thought you should be able to choose the direction the PK thunder comes out from by holding the control stick before it appears, and maybe get strong armor that decays into nothing when he channels the PK-thunder.

As for his neutral b, a crazy thought would be being able to teleport to it instead of detonate it to give his recovery a mixup, but thats crazy.

and a faster magnet plz
 

QuickRat

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#14
I believe Ness is very near to be perfect. I would modify only his recovery... but just a little. Something like making the PK Thunder not fornicable by :charizard:/:bowser2: fire. Or limitating it's helpless state. I think just that. Everything else is perfect for me. Ness is freaking useful with most of the roster and his combo-abilities are marvelous... not to mention his end moves, such as BThrow, B or FSmash (man, that bat's sweetspot is hotly hot...).
 

Xcite

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#15
What do you guys think about a possible new neutral b? I mean dont get me wrong, I love PK Flash for edgeguarding, but it just feels stale
Kinda feel you on there. It'd be cool if he could use his projectiles for combo extenders/ setups. I always had this fantasy of actually using neutral B mid combo to follow up on an opponent. I've actually tried using it after a dair on falcon at high percents, but it isnt really optimal or anything.
 

Red(SP)

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#16
Ness is a gimmicky character in design. Well, not really gimmicky, but you get the idea. I think the issue remains in his character design.

The character was over-centralized on one move (PK Fire) and now that that's been adjusted, other players have been exploring alternatives of the character and improving their fundamentals as a whole.

The problem is, PK Fire was considered at a point Ness' most useful special in his utility. The move gets nerfed with little compensation to his normal game (and even less for his special game). While I'm on the topic, thank you for buffing his forward tilt. That move has become extremely useful lately, but I feel that those small tweaks won't be enough.

I'm not calling for an entire redesign for a character, but perhaps make some of his moves start up faster so that he's not getting beat out by some lame CC tactics.

For example,

Ness' fsmash in PM is the fastest its been in any Smash game ever. The hitbox comes out on frames 10-11, but honestly, it could come out on frames 9-10. It would be a small difference, but I don't really think it's necessary to implement. Just a thought.

Yoyo startup is on frame 11, but could be tweaked to come out on frame 10 or 9.

PKT2 being 20 frames of end lag is a definitely over human reaction time. I've watched some matches where players have a clear opportunity to hit him and fail to. I would like to see an adjustment. Maybe 15 frames of end lag or even 10 frames.

His special moves are boiling down to situational uses. Magnet being used for movement, PK Fire for trapping, PKT for traps and deception, and PK Flash for anti-airs (?).

As someone mentioned earlier, it would be interesting if his moves had some sort of synergy between one another. I feel that's where Ness is weakest.

Lucas' moveset has quite the synergy and perhaps working out some synergy in areas for Ness would do him some more good. Depends on if it's deemed necessary, but from understanding character limitations and all, I believe Ness will reach a peak and stay there once people figure him out.

Maybe that's for the best. Who knows.
 

Boiko

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#17
@ Red(SP) Red(SP)

Regarding his smash attacks, it's not the start up, it's the end lag. Reducing start up isn't significant. Ness loses hard to CC because his typical best approach option, fair, can be CC'd. His other mix ups, DA and PKF, can be CC'd and shielded respectively. Fortunately, I'm currently developing an interesting approach option using grounded magnets to quickly cover a great distance, which will allow you to approach with dair, snuffing CC. I completely agree that end lag on his already awful recovery is overkill. Magnet works more as a combo extender in my opinion. I think that Ness' moves flow together quite well. It's getting in that's the problem.

That and his best kill move is basically nair since you have six years to SDI bair.
 

Akhenderson

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#18
Ness's moves string together fluently and allows Ness to chain a multitude of his attacks, provided you are fast enough, and know how each moves combo into one another utilizing all his movement options.
Like what Boiko said, Ness loses horribly to CC. I didn't think it was that bad until I played against Chillin's Wolf where he basically CC'd everything to keep himself not only alive, but to stop basic combo starters from working and when Ness can't start his combos, his damage output becomes considerably weaker. It becomes even worse when the opponent has a CC move that allows them to start up THEIR combos, and because of Ness's absolutely abysmal weight and fall speed, can proceed to string various moves against him.
 
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Red(SP)

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#19
@ Boiko Boiko

You pretty much nailed what I was trying to say in the Skype group. I was making a comparison to Wario in terms of their weakness being that their options against CC getting snuffed. I would actually be very open to less end lag on smash attacks. They would be more open to use in the neutral and would more than likely help with some of his options against CC.

I think it's a really big deal because there are character who can get a ton off of a d-tilt and Ness' weight contributes to that sort of thing (i.e. Roy, GnW, etc). I played Jiggles4life last weekend and he was able to escape PK Fire immediately after the first hit. I don't think that was accountable on CC, but rather proper SDI in defense.

Originally, people didn't know how to SDI PK Fire (and still didn't know how to even after the video TheReflexWonder put up on youtube). It was assumed with the knowledge on how to get out, the move would be rendered near to useless outside of auto-pressure, traps and DPS. The idea of the meta growing and people learning how to deal with certain tactics with render those types of things useless unless used on the unknowing.

I believe that's why people argued for the auto-pressure PK Fire. I personally don't mind the new PK Fire, but for a move that can be escaped that quickly given that the person is knowledgeable enough, I don't think decreasing the end lag on the move (particularly, the grounded version) would be hurting anything at all.
EDIT: I am aware the aerial version has more frames of end lag, but he has options for the sort.

I hope you are able to perfect the movement tech and explain how it works. For whatever reason, I felt like you were talking about a mag dash into a waveland, but I don't think that's entirely the case.
 
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Boiko

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#20
On mobile so gonna make this short, but you can escape PK Fire by buffering a roll. It's stupid easy. :/
 

LovinMitts

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#21
Things that would make Ness perfect (In my opinion, at least)

-PKT2 can grab edge backwards
-The hitboxes for when up/smash charges do slightly more damage
-Reduce landing lag on PKT2 from 20 to 14-16 frames
-Change the SFX on up air to one that sounds similar to the one used in Melee (Petty, I know, but I love that smack sound it made)
-Slightly bigger hitbox all around on up tilt
-The initial hitbox around Ness during PKT1 should last slightly longer. Like 1-2 more frames would be great.
-Bigger hitboxes on Ness during PKT2
-Better angle on back throw, since as it is now, it only kills opponents with really bad DI
-Less ending lag on up throw to allow for followups on heavier characters more easily (Similar to Melee up throw)

How unnecessary is a lot of this? Very. Do I care? No, it'd be cool.
 
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robosteven
#24
Is there a thread for possible change suggestions and discussion? I've got some ideas that (probably) don't break Ness but would definitely help him, and I don't know if this would be the appropriate thread to throw them in.
 
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robosteven
#26
okay picture this

PKT1

that you could cancel

so the projectile keeps going

but Ness isn't in idle

Thoughts?

edit: While poorly phrased, this is a real idea I have for Ness, along with a few other small ones that I'll elaborate on some other time when it's not 2 in the morning and I'm exhausted good night/morning/whatever I'm going to bed
 
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robosteven
#28
I'd be a little iffy on that, what would stop someone from canceling it airdodging into it and repeating to recover
The cancel wouldn't be THAT quick.

Ideally it'd be slow enough to not have that happen, but quick enough to actually be able to use it as a long-distance projectile but without getting punished completely for free.
 

Super4ng

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#29
Here's an idea, what if PK fire was self activated sorta like Zella's din fire. Meaning, you side b and then press b again when you want it to ignite. That way, it requires timing and you could still get shield pressure from it, but it would be less guaranteed. You have to press b before it hits shield, or it won't work
 
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