Playing Wolf Intuitively. (Essay up)

[ArcPoint]

Jcav reminded me to write this... and it's late right now, so I don't want to forget, so I'm just making this topic to remind myself to write it later =D

Don't worry, I'll have it done by tomorrow (Nov 26th) sometime.

---------------

Essay time:

The keyword in this is "intuitive" And intuitive means pertaining to intuition which means:

in⋅tu⋅i⋅tion
   /ˌɪntuˈɪʃən, -tyu-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [in-too-ish-uhn, -tyoo-] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension.
2. a fact, truth, etc., perceived in this way.
3. a keen and quick insight.
4. the quality or ability of having such direct perception or quick insight.
5. Philosophy.
a. an immediate cognition of an object not inferred or determined by a previous cognition of the same object.
b. any object or truth so discerned.
c. pure, untaught, noninferential knowledge.
6. Linguistics. the ability of the native speaker to make linguistic judgments, as of the grammaticality, ambiguity, equivalence, or nonequivalence of sentences, deriving from the speaker's native-language competence.

Let's look at 5a, "An immediate cognition of an object not inferred or determined by a previous cognition of the same object" That is the basis of "playing intuitively". What I'm seeing a lot of Wolf mains do: Followups followups followups. Bair -> Fsmash, Fair -> Utilt, a bunch of crap. This is not Melee guys, followups don't exist, only a reaction to what your opponent does next.

Brawl can be broken down into situations, the first and foremost one is the neutral situation - Nothing is present, no one has the advantage or disadvantage (Depending on the matchup). In this particular situation, your playstyle is determined by how you approach, The good Wolf players often use Wolf's safe moves in order to approach (Jab, Blaster, Fair, Bair) and some do not, some have preference as to which of Wolf's safe moves they like to use more than others, this is the basis for playstyle, and since most of them are generally safe, it really doesn't matter. Now for the good stuff, when you approach, you should not have ANY pre-conceived notion as to how you're going to approach, none whatsoever. You just rush in, stop at an appropriate distance, and then let loose with whatever fits the situation. For example, if the opponent likes to roll behind you, and you decide to FF Bair, that probably isn't the safest thing in the world, you probably could be punished for that. If they like approaching with SH Aerials, usually a retreating Fair will get the job done quite well. Those are just examples, obviously, but the point is: Adapt to the situation. If you go in with a pre-conceived plan of what you're going to do, then odds are you're going to followup with that plan, and sometimes it may work, sometimes it won't.

If you're using anything else but a safe approaching move, odds are you're either punishing, killing, or taking a calculated risk. I suppose this is where people copy the "pro's" playstyle, with the punishing moves that worked for the particular scenario that worked for that situation, then they apply it to all other situations, which basically reduced its effectiveness, and makes people predictable. And believe me, I've done the exact same thing, though, I caught myself =). The entire concept of the "playing intuitively" is simply going into a match with the knowledge of the attributes of Wolf's moves, that's it, no strategy involved, your strategy, or "playstyle" should change based on the person you're playing. And people should NOT look to videos and go "Oh look, Bair to Fsmash (Or whatever random string of moves) works really well! I'm going to use it for everytime I approach" No, that's wrong, Bair to Fsmash only works when they can't shield (For example, when they miss a shieldgrab or something). If they try to shield your Bair, and continue shielding, expecting a Fsmash, you know what you should do? Grab, you have the capability X_X, you shouldn't just mindlessly do a Fsmash, this is the heart of playing intuitively (Conceptually), basically just countering their reaction.

Mixups, now, these can be good, and these can be bad. Mixups are not just doing random things, the pro's mixups may SEEM random, however each individual mixup as a calculated alternative to the situation than the normal one. Don't do random mixups for the sake of mixups. Make your mixups always calculated. Whether that be the least expected option, or just an alternative that accomplishes the same thing without taking any extra risk. I've heard a few people say that since Germ managed to get off an Up B ledge mixup against mikeHAZE makes it a viable mixup, which is untrue, while it is unexpected, anyone with a faster than normal reaction time (Expect that in higher level of play...) or even a normal one would be able to shield the Up B, however, someone who doesn't know what that is (IE, due to matchup inexperience) wouldn't be able to recognize what's happening fast enough, so it doesn't really work >_>. But yeah, an example of a mixup: You often punish with Fsmash when you're close to them for a guaranteed 15% upon punishment, however, the opponent figures this out, and takes advantage of the fact that it has two hits: and SDIs the Fsmash so you get less punishment, an example of a mixup here would be a grab, they were expecting punishment via a Fsmash but since you mixed it up you got 12% (Because they were smart and avoided your tech chase D= ) but it sure beats only 5%. That 7% difference could mean the difference between winning and losing, so, just kinda keep that in mind.

Now, this entire concept requires you as a Wolf player to observe your opponent, in order to see their reactions, right? This will help with reducing your own predictability, and being able to watch out for THEIR bad habits, and punish them for it. Pay attention to everything they do, you know where you're going to be, and you know what you're going to do based on their reaction. You should always approach in a way that you can respond to ANYTHING they do.

So yeah, that's basically the concept of playing intuitively... not based on followups or anything of the like, copying pros or anything, This only requires you to get a knowledge of Wolf's moves, and as you get higher up in skill level, know the attributes of the opponent's moves as well. And then you can respond to any situation you come across with the proper move. And don't worry about thinking about which move to do -- as you get more in-person experience, the thinking time will be reduced because you've come across the scenario before, and you know the right move to do in which situation.

 

[smasher?o.0]

ok...
FIRST POST!
i want to read this to c what wolf players are thinking

 

[ArcPoint]

Updated. Woot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Brawl can be broken down into situations, the first and foremost one is the neutral situation - Nothing is present, no one has the advantage or disadvantage (Depending on the matchup). In this particular situation, your playstyle is determined by how you approach.

I disagree. In most cases it's safer not to approach but rather force the opponent to approach himself. Since Wolf can force almost every character to approach there's no logical reason not to do so.

In fact, taking the initiative is not always a good thing as it'll often lead into an "un-neutral" situation, which isn't in Wolfs favour. This is typical for Brawl. Your not supposed to do the first step but you have to find a way to make your opponent do the first step and punish and outsmart him accordingly. That's why mindgames are so important in Brawl.

Doing the first step is almost always a bad choice in Brawl unfortunately.

The good Wolf players often use Wolf's safe moves in order to approach (Jab, Blaster, Fair, Bair) and some do not, some have preference as to which of Wolf's safe moves they like to use more than others, this is the basis for playstyle, and since most of them are generally safe, it really doesn't matter.

Ironically, all the moves you mentioned are much better used as punishing moves rather than approaches with the exception of Blaster. It's main purpose is to force the opponent to approach.

All the other moves are terrific to punish opponents actions: A away SH to bair will evade + punish virtually every move the opponent uses. This includes all of Marth's aerials as well as G&Ws turtle. The opponent can easily do the same though if you decide to approach with Wolf. If you use bair to approach G&W (for example) he can just SH away to turtle you for a guaranteed hit.

The jabs are by no means safe, especially not to approach with. The best use for them are after an AC aerial (in most cases Fair) for shield pressure.

Now for the good stuff, when you approach, you should not have ANY pre-conceived notion as to how you're going to approach, none whatsoever. You just rush in, stop at an appropriate distance, and then let loose with whatever fits the situation.

Wolf is more mobile in the air. He can evade lots of attacks and has better options. Wolfs best approaches are all based around his aerial mobility. And even then you shouldn't use it to get closer to the enemy but rather to make him come and use an attack you can punish.

For example, if the opponent likes to roll behind you, and you decide to FF Bair, that probably isn't the safest thing in the world, you probably could be punished for that.

1.) If the opponent rolls behind you he's asking you to punish him.
2.) A FF Bair is almost always safe. Idk why you say that it "probably isn't the safest thing." I can't think of many moves that are safer.

If they like approaching with SH Aerials, usually a retreating Fair will get the job done quite well.

It's not that easy. A good opponent may not even attack you but just fake an approach. Why? So you will "accidentaly" perform an attack he can punish. Just saying "He will do [A], so do " is not enough in Brawl.

Those are just examples, obviously, but the point is: Adapt to the situation. If you go in with a pre-conceived plan of what you're going to do, then odds are you're going to followup with that plan, and sometimes it may work, sometimes it won't.

This is 100% true though it rather contradicts what you said before imo.

If you're using anything else but a safe approaching move, odds are you're either punishing, killing, or taking a calculated risk.

Or you don't even approach but want the opponent to do something you can exploit? Wolf is awesome at that. I don't know why I realised it so late (I will explain closer below).

I suppose this is where people copy the "pro's" playstyle, with the punishing moves that worked for the particular scenario that worked for that situation, then they apply it to all other situations, which basically reduced its effectiveness, and makes people predictable.

If you go to tournaments yourself you will become aware of this bad habit very quickly. I can only recommend it.

And believe me, I've done the exact same thing, though, I caught myself =).

Most players did this at a certain stage of their career. I'm actually getting rid of it atm

The entire concept of the "playing intuitively" is simply going into a match with the knowledge of the attributes of Wolf's moves, that's it, no strategy involved, your strategy, or "playstyle" should change based on the person you're playing.

This is by all means true. I think if you make full use of it, you'll see that Wolf is actually a really good character - better than most Wolf players think.

And people should NOT look to videos and go "Oh look, Bair to Fsmash (Or whatever random string of moves) works really well! I'm going to use it for everytime I approach" No, that's wrong, Bair to Fsmash only works when they can't shield (For example, when they miss a shieldgrab or something). If they try to shield your Bair, and continue shielding, expecting a Fsmash, you know what you should do? Grab, you have the capability X_X, you shouldn't just mindlessly do a Fsmash, this is the heart of playing intuitively (Conceptually), basically just countering their reaction.

I suppose this happens a lot to newbies. They copy the style of pro players but they aren't aware that they have to know what's inside their head as well. They have no idea of a players mindset and their overall attitude towards a certain situation.

Mixups, now, these can be good, and these can be bad. Mixups are not just doing random things, the pro's mixups may SEEM random, however each individual mixup as a calculated alternative to the situation than the normal one. Don't do random mixups for the sake of mixups. Make your mixups always calculated. Whether that be the least expected option, or just an alternative that accomplishes the same thing without taking any extra risk. I've heard a few people say that since Germ managed to get off an Up B ledge mixup against mikeHAZE makes it a viable mixup, which is untrue, while it is unexpected, anyone with a faster than normal reaction time (Expect that in higher level of play...) or even a normal one would be able to shield the Up B, however, someone who doesn't know what that is (IE, due to matchup inexperience) wouldn't be able to recognize what's happening fast enough, so it doesn't really work >_>. But yeah, an example of a mixup: You often punish with Fsmash when you're close to them for a guaranteed 15% upon punishment, however, the opponent figures this out, and takes advantage of the fact that it has two hits: and SDIs the Fsmash so you get less punishment, an example of a mixup here would be a grab, they were expecting punishment via a Fsmash but since you mixed it up you got 12% (Because they were smart and avoided your tech chase D= ) but it sure beats only 5%. That 7% difference could mean the difference between winning and losing, so, just kinda keep that in mind.

You're propably right. I think that this applies to Wolf more than to other characters though. That's because Wolf is good on many levels: If something hits Marths shield he will either ose UpB or SideB. He'll never do a grab, since Marths grab game is terrible. King Dedede is the opposite. He'll amost always go for the grab since he's grab game is not only broken but he also lacks good options OoS.

Wolf can do both: If he grabs he'll do ~15% Dmg (3Jabs + dthrow). If he punishes with fsmash he'll do ~15% dmg too.

Now, this entire concept requires you as a Wolf player to observe your opponent, in order to see their reactions, right?

No. You have to be the one reacting if you're Wolf. Observing: yes! Find out the opponents patterns, learn to read him and learn to understand his playstyle. And react by punishing them accordingly.

This will help with reducing your own predictability, and being able to watch out for THEIR bad habits, and punish them for it. Pay attention to everything they do, you know where you're going to be, and you know what you're going to do based on their reaction. You should always approach in a way that you can respond to ANYTHING they do. [/QUOTE]

I think you're confusing things a little. On the one hand you try to explain how to approach and thus be pro active, on the other hand you say that you should punish whenever you can and thus actually be reactive.

So yeah, that's basically the concept of playing intuitively... not based on followups or anything of the like, copying pros or anything, This only requires you to get a knowledge of Wolf's moves, and as you get higher up in skill level, know the attributes of the opponent's moves as well. And then you can respond to any situation you come across with the proper move. And don't worry about thinking about which move to do -- as you get more in-person experience, the thinking time will be reduced because you've come across the scenario before, and you know the right move to do in which situation.

True, true but again: It contradicts your point about approaching.

 

[ArcPoint]

I disagree. In most cases it's safer not to approach but rather force the opponent to approach himself. Since Wolf can force almost every character to approach there's no logical reason not to do so.

In fact, taking the initiative is not always a good thing as it'll often lead into an "un-neutral" situation, which isn't in Wolfs favour. This is typical for Brawl. Your not supposed to do the first step but you have to find a way to make your opponent do the first step and punish and outsmart him accordingly. That's why mindgames are so important in Brawl.

Doing the first step is almost always a bad choice in Brawl unfortunately.

A good strategy is a dominant strategy, if camping is such a good strategy, why isn't it dominant? If camping is so good while everyone else approaches, why don't you go an win a tourney with this really good strategy? Let's also take a look at everyone who's taken Wolf to a decently high level: Do they approach, or do they camp? How can he force anyone to approach? All they have to do is powershield, it's not like the projectiles move fast or anything =/
Pressure and punish, pressure with "safe" moves so you don't get hit, make sense?

Ironically, all the moves you mentioned are much better used as punishing moves rather than approaches with the exception of Blaster. It's main purpose is to force the opponent to approach.

All the other moves are terrific to punish opponents actions: A away SH to bair will evade + punish virtually every move the opponent uses. This includes all of Marth's aerials as well as G&Ws turtle. The opponent can easily do the same though if you decide to approach with Wolf. If you use bair to approach G&W (for example) he can just SH away to turtle you for a guaranteed hit.

The jabs are by no means safe, especially not to approach with. The best use for them are after an AC aerial (in most cases Fair) for shield pressure.

All of the moves mentioned are safe on block. They're also safe on spotdodge.
I said somewhere that if you approach, you should space yourself to compensate for ANY of their reactions, if this means not hitting them, then so be it. The entire concept is approaching SAFELY. Don't take unnecessary risks. Approaching is not an unnecessary risk, it only is if you make it.

Wolf is more mobile in the air. He can evade lots of attacks and has better options. Wolfs best approaches are all based around his aerial mobility. And even then you shouldn't use it to get closer to the enemy but rather to make him come and use an attack you can punish.

Rushing in doesn't mean dashing =/ Rushing in can mean from any angle, from any plane, from any direction, whether it be from the air or ground. Rushing and dashing may have "shing" in common, but I assure you, they're not the same word. And also to your second point... what if he uses an attack you can't punish? Brickwall time. A well spaced Marth's Fair you CAN NOT punish.

1.) If the opponent rolls behind you he's asking you to punish him.
2.) A FF Bair is almost always safe. Idk why you say that it "probably isn't the safest thing." I can't think of many moves that are safer.

If you FF Bair when they roll, they can do something before you can, and this time, they can reach you. If you were to do something say... a jab while they were rolling, you can Fsmash them before they're done with the roll's lag. This is of course examples, don't get into specifics, I made them basic for a reason.

It's not that easy. A good opponent may not even attack you but just fake an approach. Why? So you will "accidentaly" perform an attack he can punish. Just saying "He will do [A], so do " is not enough in Brawl.

I'm giving you EXAMPLES of adapting, I'm not saying "Do X in scenario Y" believe it or not, there is a reason I simplify my examples down to the basics, I don't care about tiny insignificant factor ABCDEFG, I'm trying to prove the point of adapting. I am well aware that Fair does not beat some moves. And if an opponent fakes an approach, a fully retreated Fair is completely safe.

Or you don't even approach but want the opponent to do something you can exploit? Wolf is awesome at that. I don't know why I realised it so late (I will explain closer below).

What if they do something you CAN'T exploit? Do you just sit there waiting until they do something exploitable? Why should they stop using Marth's Fair if you can't punish it?

If you go to tournaments yourself you will become aware of this bad habit very quickly. I can only recommend it.

Sometimes, sometimes not ^_^ Depends on who you are.

You're propably right. I think that this applies to Wolf more than to other characters though. That's because Wolf is good on many levels: If something hits Marths shield he will either ose UpB or SideB. He'll never do a grab, since Marths grab game is terrible. King Dedede is the opposite. He'll amost always go for the grab since he's grab game is not only broken but he also lacks good options OoS.

Marth has a good grab game...

No. You have to be the one reacting if you're Wolf. Observing: yes! Find out the opponents patterns, learn to read him and learn to understand his playstyle. And react by punishing them accordingly.

You have to be both reactive and proactive, both involve observing your opponent.

I think you're confusing things a little. On the one hand you try to explain how to approach and thus be pro active, on the other hand you say that you should punish whenever you can and thus actually be reactive.

It's honestly irrelevant because this is about playing Wolf without any pre-conceieved notion as to exactly what you're going to do, be it camping or approaching. However, since the majority of Wolf players approach (as well as the good ones) I figured I'd go over approaching. The proactive part is the approaching, being READY for each scenario should it come up, take Bair for example, it's safe on pretty much any defensive option other than rolling behind you. You're already being proactive simply by being there and not necessarily attacking, however based on their reaction you have to decided whether or not the Bair you're about to use is "safe" and then act accordingly, if it is, then you proceed with Bair, if it isn't, do something else that is safe. Either way, you're being proactive, however you're adapting to the situation. Make sense?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A good strategy is a dominant strategy, if camping is such a good strategy, why isn't it dominant?

Are you kidding? It IS dominant. This is Brawl my good sir.

If camping is so good while everyone else approaches, why don't you go an win a tourney with this really good strategy?

Do you know how many people do this already?

Let's also take a look at everyone who's taken Wolf to a decently high level: Do they approach, or do they camp?

The best of these players - Candy - plays very defensive and campy. Camping =/= spam projectiles.

How can he force anyone to approach? All they have to do is powershield, it's not like the projectiles move fast or anything =/

And? If they just stand there and shield, how are they supposed to do Wolf any harm? Besides if they fail to shield once, they're already at a disadvantage.

Pressure and punish, pressure with "safe" moves so you don't get hit, make sense?

In theroy: yes. In real life: NO! There are no 100% safe moves. You can punish every move.
If there was a truly safe move you could just use it over and over until the opponents shield breakes.

That's not the way Brawl works.

All of the moves mentioned are safe on block.

Jabs aren't

They're also safe on spotdodge.

Not really. There are so many fundamentally different spotdodges in this game. It's hard to agree.

I said somewhere that if you approach, you should space yourself to compensate for ANY of their reactions, if this means not hitting them, then so be it.

Unfortunately, the only thing that works like this are projectiles, which contradicts the attitude of approaching. Everything else can be punished.

The entire concept is approaching SAFELY. Don't take unnecessary risks. Approaching is not an unnecessary risk, it only is if you make it.

No. Approaching is a risk. As long as you can make the opponent approach somehow it is.

Rushing in doesn't mean dashing =/ Rushing in can mean from any angle, from any plane, from any direction, whether it be from the air or ground. Rushing and dashing may have "shing" in common, but I assure you, they're not the same word.

kk lulz

And also to your second point... what if he uses an attack you can't punish?

There is no such move except projectile.
Just because you can't punish them OoS or out of a spotdodge doesn't mean they're impossible to punish per se.

Brickwall time. A well spaced Marth's Fair you CAN NOT punish.

Yes, you can.

If you FF Bair when they roll, they can do something before you can, and this time, they can reach you.

Why bairing a roll? If the opponent rolls behing you, just turn around and grab or do a dsmash? Why do a bair?

If you were to do something say... a jab while they were rolling, you can Fsmash them before they're done with the roll's lag. This is of course examples, don't get into specifics, I made them basic for a reason.

You can do anything you want to them if they roll behind you.

I'm giving you EXAMPLES of adapting, I'm not saying "Do X in scenario Y" believe it or not, there is a reason I simplify my examples down to the basics, I don't care about tiny insignificant factor ABCDEFG, I'm trying to prove the point of adapting. I am well aware that Fair does not beat some moves.

You should perhaps mention that before the actual essay? Not everybody is smart...

And if an opponent fakes an approach, a fully retreated Fair is completely safe.

No u.

What if they do something you CAN'T exploit?

There exists no such thing.

Do you just sit there waiting until they do something exploitable?

No. You try to make him do something exploitable.

Why should they stop using Marth's Fair if you can't punish it?

Because you can.

Marth has a good grab game...

This isn't Melee, you know.

You have to be both reactive and proactive,

Not really. Sometimes being proactive is benifitial but not often.

both involve observing your opponent.

Yes, but being reactive usually has better results.

It's honestly irrelevant because this is about playing Wolf without any pre-conceieved notion as to exactly what you're going to do, be it camping or approaching. However, since the majority of Wolf players approach (as well as the good ones) I figured I'd go over approaching.

Are you sure? As far as I know none of these Wolves have won a major tourney recently. I know two people: Candy and Gaki (but of course you don't care about him - who gives a **** about EU players?) and both are pretty defensive. They don't spam blaster but they are quite campy.

Has the GERM won a major tournament with Wolf?

The proactive part is the approaching, being READY for each scenario should it come up,

That's a contradiction. You can't approach with a move and be ready for each scenario at the
same time.

take Bair for example, it's safe on pretty much any defensive option other than rolling behind you.

This is very false. I could give you examples how every single character can punish it.

You're already being proactive simply by being there and not necessarily attacking, however based on their reaction you have to decided whether or not the Bair you're about to use is "safe" and then act accordingly, if it is, then you proceed with Bair, if it isn't, do something else that is safe. Either way, you're being proactive, however you're adapting to the situation. Make sense?

Unfortunaltely not. I completely agree with your main point: Playing without fixed patterns and habits is better.
Approaching on the other hand is a completely different stroy.

I'm sorry to disagree so much but it just not the way Brawl works.

 

[ArcPoint]

According to you, what is approaching, and what is camping?

http://www.youtube.com/user/curiousenver

That's the video channel with videos from C3, an East Coast regional, the majority of the matches there are people trying to approach.

And here is that set between CK and Candy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOJYccrkryU Show me where he is camping for more than 20 seconds, where he is simply standing there punishing everything CK tries to approach with.

And as for the "there are no unpunishable moves" thing, yes, there are, at least on Block. There are tons of things that counter Marth's forward air, however, if Marth's forward air hits your shield, and is spaced well, you will not be able to punish it.

And Bair is safe on almost all DEFENSIVE options, why would you have to list characters? All characters have the exact same defensive options =/

And I had to quote this:

That's a contradiction. You can't approach with a move and be ready for each scenario at the
same time.

True, you can't approach with a move and be ready for every scenario, however you can approach (Who says you need to have to use a move to approach? People have approached using DEFENSIVE options) with being ready for each scenario.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In that match Candy was camping the whole time. He just movd around in the air waiting for CK to attack. He always landed bair in CKs lags. He never attacked if CK didn't.

Camping at its best

 

[ArcPoint]

From dictionary.com: ap⋅proach
   /əˈproʊtʃ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-prohch] Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object)
1. to come near or nearer to: The cars slowed down as they approached the intersection.
2. to come near to in quality, character, time, or condition; to come within range for comparison: As a poet he hardly approaches Keats.
3. to present, offer, or make a proposal or request to: to approach the president with a suggestion.
4. to begin work on; set about: to approach a problem.
5. to make advances to; address.
6. to bring near to something.
–verb (used without object)
7. to come nearer; draw near: A storm is approaching.
8. to come near in character, time, amount, etc.; approximate.

Each time Candy came closer to CK, he approached. Approaching doesn't necessarily mean using a move, it simply means coming closer to your opponent.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's different to what you said b efore. Your advice included using "a safe move to approach".

 

[castorpollux]

just do whatever works. Stop arguing over what's camping and what isn't

 

[Ishiey]

Multiquotes give me seizures.

As much as I say stuff about following up, I wholeheartedly believe the best way to play any fighting game is 'intuitively', pre-judging every scenario to see what the best option is, and what the options will be out of that route depending on the opponents actions to make the best decision. Especially in something like brawl, where so few things are guaranteed. Nothing should ever be done automatically, because people catch on and punish you for it.

 

[ArcPoint]

That was the point I was trying to get out.

And @ Gheb: A safe move in order to approach, you can approach without using a move, however, if you want to be proactive, which obviously you don't, then you don't have to use a move to approach. You can just...approach lol.

 

[castorpollux]

lol gheb, lemme describe to you what it was like to play against koreandj's diddy kong.

Me- Blaster
KDJ - Powershield -> walk forward
Me- Blaster
KDJ - Powershield -> walk forward
Me- Blaster
KDJ - Powershield -> glide toss banana-> grab-> fthrow -> pulls out another banana

Then I thought to myself.....****! making them approach doesn't work!

Then i started approaching him with my bair wall and I did a whole lot better

Camping doesn't work against good players (unless they play bowser or dk or ganondorf or someone else ridiculously big)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol

Camping =/= projectile spamming

 

[castorpollux]

but if you move forward that's technically approaching ;-)

**edit**

so if projectile spamming isn't what you had in mind, what exactly are you doing to "force" the opponent to approach?

 

[koikaze]

Arc, this was a good read.

Gheb, what are you trying to accomplish exactly? lol

It's all about the spacing. Wolfs shine at controlling how far their opponents are away from them. This requires the wolf to move closer or farther from the opponent. There isn't a static range where wolf would like to stay at (aka camp). It's a good idea to be flexible, keep pressure, and punish. Blasters don't always work for pressure--sometimes they need a swift Bair to the face XD.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

but if you move forward that's technically approaching ;-)

**edit**

so if projectile spamming isn't what you had in mind, what exactly are you doing to "force" the opponent to approach?

Watch the video Arc posted and my comments on them. Maybe you'll understand. It's actually very helpful...

Arc, this was a good read.

Basically I agree. The core message - to play without fixed patterns or habits but rather adapting to your opponent - is the key to success.

The explanations on approaching are in my eyes contradictonary and in the wring place though.

Gheb, what are you trying to accomplish exactly? lol

My goal is always accuracy. I'm not trying to lie or whitwhash what I have to say. Some may call me rude but that's only because I really care, that things written are as accurate as possible.

I hope Arc knows me well enough by now to understand that

It's all about the spacing. Wolfs shine at controlling how far their opponents are away from them. This requires the wolf to move closer or farther from the opponent. There isn't a static range where wolf would like to stay at (aka camp).

Again: The b asic message "move and act with your opponent" is true.
Your comment about camping isn't. Camping isn't projectile spamming and certainly not "staying at a statinc range".

It's a good idea to be flexible, keep pressure, and punish. Blasters don't always work for pressure--sometimes they need a swift Bair to the face XD.

Yea but even the swift bair usually works best as a reaction to your opoonents action.

 

[ArcPoint]

I'm confused, are you still saying that you should force the opponent to approach or are you saying that you should be playing purely on reaction (As in no proactivity)? You said Candy was camping in the video, when really he was approaching, but then you said he was playing by reaction.

And thanks Koikaze, since when do you main Wolf? I thought you mained like... Peach?

 

[Ishiey]

Being proactive is technically a reaction to your opponent's lack of a reaction... Every action is based off of what you observe in the match, basically everything is a reaction.

 

[Xanthyr]

Being proactive is technically a reaction to your opponent's lack of a reaction... Every action is based off of what you observe in the match, basically everything is a reaction.

There's a dime philosophy for you. Of course everything is a reaction, the grass is green, sky is blue. To point out such an obvious thing is bland and useless.

The less proactive you are, the less reactive they can be, vice-versa. Everything finds it's equilibrium if it has enough stimulus.

Playing intuitively is very admirable and efficient if the player themselves are able to function at that cognitive speed. Others can't live in the moment so they devise plans, to mindgame the person into falling into a pattern that they already can exploit, so on and so forth.

Honestly, I read the essay when I was sick and during insomnia so I don't rightly know verbatim as to what was said, but I remember agreeing with him. Now Arc has botched some follow-up explanations it happens, and that's where arbitrary counter-points are made about nothing and do nothing but masturbate the person who said them. -points at quote-

So, my input is, if you can play actively reacting to what's happening on screen instead of intense flexing of insight and planning, then you have an ability that other people don't have, and those people are stuck with planning and one of the main points to playing such a way is when you observe and try to re-enforce the other player to do a pattern, you do the negative reaction to that to try and cause it. And because of the equilibrium of pro/re-activity, you go into a pattern that can be read, and thus punished, which allows for competitive playing to even happen to be fun, it changes and never ends.

Adding intuitive playing makes you a wildcard, a randomness generator. If makes your negative pattern skewed just enough for the person to still fall for the trap by acting the converse but has to have an equally skewed reaction to catch you quickly. It turns from chess to skating drunk on ice.

It's something we should all do once in a while, take a dose of crazy and just let the game flow. It can change your style of playing midgame more than once if you can let your mind go while it is effective. You change, they don't. their proactive is shot and thus your reaction is more efficient.

Basic human vs human concepts and just some people, as I said, lack the cognitive speed to even allow intuitive playing to occur. It's nothing of inferiority or obsolescence, just different strokes for different folks.

 

[koikaze]

And thanks Koikaze, since when do you main Wolf? I thought you mained like... Peach?

Wait what? You know who I am? @.@ I tried playing Peach for a month. She is SOOOO not my play style. I mained Lucario and Samus before.

I just started Wolf like a few weeks ago. He is more my play style. I really like his moves for punishment (Fsmash <3). He is also good in teams, which is my preferred format.

Again: The b asic message "move and act with your opponent" is true.
Your comment about camping isn't. Camping isn't projectile spamming and certainly not "staying at a statinc range".

Ok, can you please define what camping means to you? Candy may be "camping" by your definition. My idea of camping involves staying at a static range away so your opponent is at the disadvantage--forcing your opponent to approach.

Yea but even the swift bair usually works best as a reaction to your opoonents action.

It was just an example lol.

 

[ArcPoint]

Wait what? You know who I am? @.@ I tried playing Peach for a month. She is SOOOO not my play style. I mained Lucario and Samus before.

I just started Wolf like a few weeks ago. He is more my play style. I really like his moves for punishment (Fsmash <3). He is also good in teams, which is my preferred format.

Yeah, I'm in NorCal, so I've heard of you =P You and Peachy ran a doubles tourney in Reno semi-recently. And you've never been to any of the Grapevine tournaments D= They're fun... (And the only ones that I get to go to for now xD )

 

[koikaze]

Word, I'm internet famous XD. I will need to go to a Grapevine tournament sometime so that we can play.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm confused, are you still saying that you should force the opponent to approach or are you saying that you should be playing purely on reaction (As in no proactivity)?

As long as your opponent is too far away to punish you, you can play active in it's own way. Purely on reaction is maybe too much said although it's better in almost every case (as Wolf).

You said Candy was camping in the video, when really he was approaching, but then you said he was playing by reaction.

Camping leaves you with no other options than to play on reaction. If you play defensively, approaching is an option.

But not while using a move at the same time.

Ok, can you please define what camping means to you? Candy may be "camping" by your definition. My idea of camping involves staying at a static range away so your opponent is at the disadvantage--forcing your opponent to approach.

As you said yourself: What you described is to "force approaches". It's part of camping but not all.

Marth is considered one of the games best campers, despite not even having a projectile bat all. Yet his preferred playstyle is camping: Waiting for the opponent to hit his shield and punish with Dolphin Slash or Dancing Blade. Interferrig his opponents attempt to approach with a swift fair. This is camping.

Candy wasn't doing anything else. Everytime he used bair it was to interfere CKs attempt to attack him not to approach. In this exapmle Wolf outcamped Marth.

 

[ArcPoint]

As long as your opponent is too far away to punish you, you can play active in it's own way. Purely on reaction is maybe too much said although it's better in almost every case (as Wolf).

Staying too far away to be punished... they call this zoning, and Marth is excellent at that. And for the second sentence, what about what Ishiey said? You could "react" to anything, your opponent's lack of reaction for example, so technically, no matter how you play your match, you're ALWAYS reacting.

Camping leaves you with no other options than to play on reaction. If you play defensively, approaching is an option.

But not while using a move at the same time.

This was confusing, so while you camp you can't approach?

As you said yourself: What you described is to "force approaches". It's part of camping but not all.

Marth is considered one of the games best campers, despite not even having a projectile bat all. Yet his preferred playstyle is camping: Waiting for the opponent to hit his shield and punish with Dolphin Slash or Dancing Blade. Interferrig his opponents attempt to approach with a swift fair. This is camping.

Candy wasn't doing anything else. Everytime he used bair it was to interfere CKs attempt to attack him not to approach. In this exapmle Wolf outcamped Marth.

I think what you're referring to is playing defensively, not camping, you can approach while playing defensively, however your goal is to bait out a reaction, and then punish that reaction. That's what you say Candy did.

The opposite, playing aggressive or offensively, is simply approaching, but instead of baiting a reaction, you're forcing a reaction. I think you mean playing defensively, not camping?

 

[ZeroFox]

Regardless of the huge multiquote chain, I thought it was a good read.