Heads up guys, I'll be going through stuff in the next day or two and updating things to reflect the Roy changes for 3.5! Gonna add a stage section as well to give my thoughts on how Roy does on them.
Taytertot said:
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Ok so Ive been reading the footsies handbook and the 6th chapter goes into close range combat and eventually talks about the difference between gimmicks and tactics in regards to attack situations. gimmicks being only useful once while tactics being situations you can put an opponent in where they have to choose one option or another both of which you have a solution for where neither option can be counter the same way (thus making it so the opponent has to make a 50/50 choice of which option to cover and hope you arent doing the other one). So I was curious what options/situation roy has in that regard?
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There aren't as many "hard" 50/50s in smash where you only have two options versus two types of defense, but there are definitely situations you can use that sort of logic for with PM Roy. Lets take a situation...you dtilt someone's shield at optimal distance away, and they are have their back relatively close to the ledge, so an easy retreat isn't an option. Some of your better options afterwards; dtilt again, nair, dash JC grab, wait. Vs opponent's options; shield grab, spotdodge, jump OoS, roll, continue shielding.
Dtilt again - Beats grab clean and punishes hard, assuming that you're spacing optimally (outside of their grab, but inside sweetspot range). Likely to whiff vs spotdodge, but dtilt has less cooldown than a spotdodge, so you'll still be in an advantageous situation. Goes even with rolling; dtilt cooldown is low enough to not get punished, but you'll still be at about neutral. Jump OoS will go over a dtilt, and characters with beefy enough aerials will hit you hard enough afterwards for you to not be able to crouch cancel punish, losing you momentum at best and getting you punished hard at worst. Shielding puts them at the same situation as before, minus some of their shield's health; advantageous.
Nair - Beats grab with a light punish. Beats spot dodge with a light punish (assuming optimal timing of having the third swing around actually come out, which you should be doing in this sort of situation). Loses to long range aerials OoS (like marth fair) and some other aerials done ASAP after shielding the dtilt. Whiffs on (most?) rolls, putting you in a fairly bad situation. Vs shielding it grinds down shield health, pokes at the top of shields for easy stabs, and leaves you in a decent position afterwards.
Dash JC grab - Technically loses to an ASAP grab, since you'll have to be dashing into your opponent's range and are at a bit of a frame disadvantage. (In practice it wins vs most character's grabs, though, since Roy's grab range is above average and will be optimally spaced outside of theirs.) Loses to spotdodge, putting you in neutral at best and get you lightly punished at worst. Loses hard to jumping aerials OoS. Loses to roll, leaving you in neutral vs an opponent too far away to actively pressure. Beats shielding clean.
Wait - Beats grab, with possible dtilt punish. Beats spotdodge, with possible dtilt or hard punish fsmash. Loses hard to jumping aerials OoS. Beats roll, with possible dtilt, grab, or fsmash punishers. Goes even with continued shielding.
This may sound pretty daunting for a defending opponent, and thats because
it is. Optimal dtilt spacing is where Roy works his magic, and opponents forced to shield a dtilt at that range with their back to the ledge will be in for a rough time. Lets say that you're point blank with your opponent for whatever reason in that situation whenever they shield dtilt...your options become much less safe. Your best options; dtilt again, jab, nair, grab, wait, shield, spotdodge, roll away. Opponent's best options; shield grab, spotdodge, jump OoS, roll, continue shielding.
Dtilt again - Loses to shield grab. Same as above Vs spotdodge; roughly even, though whiffing the dtilt at this distance is a little scarier. Loses to jump OoS, and at this distance most characters will be able to punish you harder. Goes even with roll, same as above. Loses to continued shielding, where your opponent is more likely to correctly time a shield grab to punish you.
Jab - Technically loses to a frame perfect shield grab, but in practice, more often than not, it will beat the grab out. Whiffs vs spotdodge, leaving you in an advantageous position. Beats all but the fastest aerials OoS. Whiffs vs roll, leaving you in a slightly advantageous position. Loses to continued shielding via shield grab punishes.
Nair - Loses to a quick/frame perfect grab. Beats spotdodge with a light punish. Loses to jumping OoS with aerials. Goes even with rolling, same as above. Even with continued shielding, but leaves you in a rather disadvantageous situation unless your drift back outside of shield grab range.
Grab - Loses to grab due to being at a frame disadvantage. Loses to spotdodge, with a punish being more likely. Loses to quick aerials used OoS. Slightly advantageous vs roll. Beats continued shielding.
Wait - Loses to grab. Beats spotdodge, with potential dtilt or fsmash punishes. Loses to jumping aerials OoS. Beats roll with potential dtilt, grab, or fsmash punishes. Slightly advantageous vs continued shielding, as it turns a situation with poor frame advantage to the same situation with equal frame advantage.
Shield - Loses to grab. Beats spotdodge with shield grab punish. Advantaged vs jumping aerials OoS, where you can punish with shield grab at best, and have momentum at worst (with the exception of characters like the space animals who can safely pressure a shield after landing with aerials). Loses to rolling by putting you in a terrible situation where you simultaneously have your back to your opponent in shield and are backed into the corner of the stage. Goes even with an opponent's continued shielding.
Spotdodge - Beats even a frame perfect shield grab. Slightly disadvantageous vs spotdodge due to frame disadvantage. Loses to jumping aerials OoS. Slightly advantageous against roll. Loses to continued shielding.
Roll away - Technically loses to a frame perfect shield grab, but slips away more often than not in practice. Slightly disadvantageous vs spotdodging. Even vs aerials OoS, though is punished by wavedashing OoS. Slightly advantaged vs continued shielding, due to putting more distance between you and your opponent despite still being at a slight frame disadvantage.
As you can see, a lot more options at his distance are unsafe, especially if your opponent has the godlike reflexes necessary to shield grab ASAP on reaction to shielding the first dtilt. If you don't have your opponent backed into the corner of the stage, they also have the option of rolling or wavedashing OoS away ASAP, which nulifies any option besides "wait" (which it is slightly disadvantaged against), but loses to the new "good" options of "chase deep with an early wavedash/run".
(Some of the above options are obviously different depending on the character you're playing against, and there are also options that I've naturally left out, some either because they are highly unsafe/a gimmick (such as throwing hail-mary fsmashes at your opponent whenever they shield a dtilt) or just not very efficient (like poking at your opponent with a rising fair after a well spaced dtilt, which does less damage and is overall less safe than a nair). One of the challenging parts of smash is of course trying to figure out when to use what moves in various situations, though, and you'll no doubt run into opponents trying out options that I haven't listed. Don't take my examination as gospel; explore for yourself and figure out what options are best versus any options you see your opponents take!)
This is all a lot more complicated than Street Fighter's "high/low/throw/block" vs "block high/block low/DP/backdash", obviously, but the theory is the same. Smart pressure can condition your opponents to not pick certain options, and then it becomes much easier to "guess" correctly and pick the option that will beat the one that your opponent chose!
Spoiler: Taytertot quote
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Some of the elements described in the Footsies Handbook are more relevant than others. To analyze one;
Spoiler: Footsies' Handbook Element #1
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This is the entire purpose of dash dancing, in a nutshell. Opponent is sitting in shield? Dash just into their grab/attack range and dash dance back out, see if they'll take the bait and whiff (and then cash in delicious punishment). The same thing goes for dash dancing in neutral, where instead you want to be moving in and out of the range they could threaten if they try to over-extend into your zone. Marth fsmashing you every time you wavedash in for spaced dtilts? Start wavedashing a little shorter/in place to bait the fsmash, and then punish!
The Footsies Handbook is too big for me to sit down and analyze all of the elements, of course, but the main point of reading it is to get your mind into the process of studying and analyzing the effects you can have on your opponents with movement.
