Guide Playing with Ph1r3 - Gold Version

[Sethlon]

Sethlon submitted a new guide:

Playing with Ph1r3 - A PM Roy guide for the Intermediate player

So, you want to learn how to play as Roy. Or maybe you just want a better understanding of him. Maybe you just want to learn his gimmicks so you can tell your crewmates what to look out for against him.


You've come to the right place.

What do I Need to Know Ahead of Time?​

This guide is written with the intermediate player in mind. I expect you to already know what all of the standard Smash terms are (DI, "Nair", crouch cancelling, pivot,...

Read more about this guide...

 

[Oddyesy]

Duuuude, this is sooper great. I love it. But what do you mean by "inconsistent kill power"? As far as I can tell, Roy has some pretty swell kill tools. Someone said that you mean if someone lived past kill percent then it was really hard to kill, but I'd like some clarification.

Also the Roy chat misses you </3 I know that we're never on topic, but...

 

[Sethlon]

Roy has great tools to kill. Landing them consistently at lower percents, on the other hand, is rather difficult, since he needs to take a significant risk to utilize his most powerful one (fsmash). Proper DI will make an opponent survive until a decent percent (unless you get lucky and get an fsmash at/over the ledge), and once you're up to percents that fsmash will actually kill against good DI, there aren't very many set ups to combo into it. Throwing it out in situations where it doesn't actually combo is risky. (Especially against higher level opponents, ones who can weasel out of fsmash set ups and punish them extremely hard.) Unless you want to gamble, you'll have to be patient, wrack opponents up into high percent, and start looking for stuff like dair/uair -> bair, sweetspot ftilt, DED xx>, or an edgeguard (which is highly dependent on opponent's character).

 

[WinterShorts]

Damn, 37 votes and this guide's rating is at least 4.5. Just want to say congratulations!

 

[Sethlon]

Thanks! I put a good amount of work into it haha

 

[Z13k]

Great Guide,
I have a couple of questions that aren't mentioned that I was hoping you might elaborate on.

1. I've seen a few of your match's and you seemed to like to use dair as a common out of shield option, especially if the opponent is behind you. When do you find this to be the appropriate over other options like a nair.

2. You mentioned the basic idea for Roys game in the controlling space portion of your guide for characters with less reach then Roy (MK) and characters with larger reach (DK), but what about characters with safe projectiles like link or Mario. They have a larger reach then you but they kind of stuff your dash dances so playing defensively doesn't seem to work in your favor. Is it more like the original game plan where you slowly approach on their space just not as safe as in other match-ups?

Once again great guide, I'll keep rooting for you and your Roy on the Tourney Locator channel.

 

[Sethlon]

1. Dair is a decent OoS options in the situations where Marth would use Bair OoS. (Roy's Bair is a pretty subpar OoS option, since it has very little reach). Dair can set up for follow up combos, but its pretty unsafe...crouch cancelling blows it up, and it leaves Roy pretty open if you whiff it.

2. Dash dancing is indeed a pretty poor option against most projectiles. The only time its really useful is against something like Ivy's razor leaf, and you're at the edge of its range, so you can dash dance around there and look for an opening to dash in after it fades away.
DDing is actually pretty decent against Mario fireballs; if you dash dance just outside of where a full hop fireball will land, you're at a fairly safe distance from Mario's physical attacks, can intercept the start of fireball setups with fair/nair, and have enough room to back up if you Mario doesn't approach or you don't have a good feel for when to try to intercept. Outside of that, its often best IMO to stand a little further back from that and just neutralize the fire balls with jabs/aerials from a safe distance.
Against Link's rang, its better to use the more standard patient Roy movement of wavedashing around in crouch. Roy can actually fully duck a straight thrown 'rang at certain distances, which leads to easy powershields. Even a non-reflect powershield can lead to the opening Roy needs to get in on Link. Full crouch cancelling is a pretty good way to absorb the 'rang and go for an opening, as well, though it comes with taking a ton of damage. Main thing is neutralize the 'rang, and then be wary of Link intercepting any of your approaches with dash attack.

 

[PootisKonga]

I'm wondering if someone would be willing to do those threat zone charts for all of the characters. I'd do it myself, but as a newer player still learning the intricacies of P:M I doubt mine would be accurate

 

[Charmilio]

Sethlon, longtime fan of yours here. 'Ashes to Ashes' is pretty much the reason I've gotten into the smash scene at large, every time I watch you play it's like watching a combo reel. Even your set against M2K at APEX spoke volumes to me just by the fact that he had to switch to Fox in game 2 to handle your approches. So thanks for inspiring me with your amazing technical ability and being the only Roy main out there in the PM scene to keep the fire going.

How would you recommend someone who doesn't really have the opportunity to practice against human players (outside of netplay) get some work in? That little bit about taking spacies to FD and setting them to 'Evade' for chaingrab practice is a golden nugget for people like me, and I was wondering if you could think of anything else along those lines to practice by myself. Should I just stick to working on my SHFFL-fairs, JCgrabs, and general movement on Battlefield or something?

P.S. this guide is ****ing gloris, christmas came early!

 

[Sethlon]

Glad to hear that! The old DBR Melee combo videos are actually what got me into competitive smash. Thats the one of the main reasons that I put as much work into my combo video as I did; wanted to pass on some of that inspiration to other players! =)

There really isn't anything you can do solo that really beats practicing against other seasoned opponents. If you don't want/can't play on netplay, and there's no scene where you live, you might consider trying to start one yourself! TourneyLocator actually had a talk about that subject not long ago.

But as far as the things you can practice; yeah, grinding out aerial l-cancelling, jcgrabs, wavedashing, etc is one of the best things you can do training solo. Movement like that in general will take time in the lab, might as well use the time that you have to get it down pat now. I'd recommend doing so on pretty much all the stage though; its really important to be comfortable moving around everywhere. Playing against computers is actually decent training for getting a feel for different characters combo weights as well, just beware of falling into a flowchart. Another trick you can do is to use motion sensor bombs in training mode to practice wall teching; stick a bomb to the ledge, upB into it, get a feel for when the window is to wall tech.

 

[psiaf]

in your guide you mention how enough practice with ledgedashing can give you a very quick dash. until I read this, it looked like every time you ledgedashed you did it with a simple jump -> shield input as opposed to ledgehop -> shield. just to clarify how do you do you perform your ledgedashes?

 

[Sethlon]

The inputs are grab ledge, down on control stick (to let go of the ledge and fastfall a smidgen), double jump, airdodge on the stage, and then whatever you want to do then.

 

[Saaab]

Thanks a lot for this, Sethlon! Long time stalker here; and this is exactly what I've been waiting for from you!

 

[1FD]

I like Roy but I would like more diversity in the side b hits
Like one that's a FAKE hit even.
The diversity in things is what's so good about this game, and Roy's sideb is a niche that nothing else covers in the game (others than Marths but Roys is cooler already)
Would love a fake blue swing that cancels early so you could use it as a grab mixup or out-of-trouble move or something.
YES I CAME HERE TO SAY I LIKE SIDEB BUT WANT TO LIKE IT MORE

 

[Smolder]

Great guide as usual, Sethlon. You always push out grade A content!

 

[Croph]

Awesome guide, Sethlon! I love how you've not only included hitboxes, but also gifs of the moves/techs utilized in matches. I'm kinda a visual learner, so it's nice to see these things in action to get a clearer picture. Thanks!

 

[Taytertot]

Super helpful guide. I'm curious to know what changes you'd make now that 3.5 roy is out.

 

[Sethlon]

Probably won't be many changes (mention grab change [tho I say always JC grabs already], don't be stupid with dropping uairs on shield now that its -2, etc). New hitbox gifs would probably be a good idea since a lot of hitboxes got tweaked a little, but I'm probably going to hold off on working on this until a month+ when I have a better idea on how changes will effect things. Also considering adding in a section on stage analysis.

 

[Taytertot]

Fair enough. How do you feel about the changes thus far? Were you apart of the roy changes in 3.5? Also your definitely the reason that I play roy in PM cause your roy is absolutely crazy!

 

[Sethlon]

I was naturally involved in most of the changes, though many of the rest of the dev team were as well.
The changes are a mix of minor nerfs and buffs. DED x> is useful again since it matches Melee's range, though DED strings are a bit tighter as far as execution goes. Dash grab hitbox reach has been lowered, but that was silly and shouldn't have been a thing in the first place. Dair hitboxes got reworked some and end result is dair spike is a bit harder to land, it doesn't kill on grounded opponents at high percent (lulz), and the spike isn't as useful for high percent tech chases...but its better for low percent tech chases and is a legitimate kill option offstage. DACUS frame increase makes it a thing thats a bit more reliable and easy to use. Uair landing lag increase makes it less EZmode on shield, though still pretty safe.

 

[Taytertot]

Wow thanks for the info. Ive certainly found the changes interesting though I did enjoy the larger hitbox of dair, but all in all roy feels good. Are there any good combos for guaranteed dair spikes offstage? only one I can think of is dtilting next to the ledge.

 

[Smolder]

Wow thanks for the info. Ive certainly found the changes interesting though I did enjoy the larger hitbox of dair, but all in all roy feels good. Are there any good combos for guaranteed dair spikes offstage? only one I can think of is dtilting next to the ledge.

This one is Di dependent, but what you can do is get the opponent near the ledge, do any move that knocks them up, fair them, fall slightly below them, and dair. You'll see many Roys do this in 3.02, but it's a little harder to land now. I have one video reference to show you for this combo in 3.5 if you'd like to see it.

 

[Sethlon]

There aren't any guaranteed setups for dair that I know of. Dtilt can set up for it, a low fair can set up for it (the classic Ken combo, as Smolder mentions), upthrow can set up for it against spacies, and well times invulnerable dairs from the ledge can be deep enough to land it sometimes.

 

[Smolder]

There aren't any guaranteed setups for dair that I know of. Dtilt can set up for it, a low fair can set up for it (the classic Ken combo, as Smolder mentions), upthrow can set up for it against spacies, and well times invulnerable dairs from the ledge can be deep enough to land it sometimes.

Invulnerable dairs still work? I've been attempting that for a while and it just seems like the sweet spot takes over the super sweet spot every time. Guess I need more practice, haha. On an unrelated note: are you going to IaB today? I need some 3.5 Roy content badly, and you usually don't disappoint.

 

[Sethlon]

Invinci-dair spikes still work, but you will often have to dip pretty low before the ledgehop to get the spike hitbox. Fortunately Roy's double jump is rather good in PM, so he can dip deceptively low.

And yeah, I'll be as IaB today! Expect to see me at most of them now that 3.5 is out =)

 

[Hellrazor]

And yeah, I'll be as IaB today! Expect to see me at most of them now that 3.5 is out =)

I don't know what that stands for but I'll try to figure it out so I can try to find footage! Can't wait to see this version's Roy in action, and in your hands no less.

This guide has been like my PH1R3y code of honor. I plan to keep it that way.

 

[Smolder]

I don't know what that stands for but I'll try to figure it out so I can try to find footage! Can't wait to see this version's Roy in action, and in your hands no less.

This guide has been like my PH1R3y code of honor. I plan to keep it that way.

Infinity and Beyond, hosted by Tourneylocator. Here's their twitch stream if you want to watch it later tonight. http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

 

[G13_Flux]

There aren't any guaranteed setups for dair that I know of. Dtilt can set up for it, a low fair can set up for it (the classic Ken combo, as Smolder mentions), upthrow can set up for it against spacies, and well times invulnerable dairs from the ledge can be deep enough to land it sometimes.

dtilt > dair isnt guarenteed? ive tested in in debug mode and it doesnt seem like the opponent is out of hitstun by the time i hit them. i mean at least at some realistic mid range percent, say 50% on a non super floaty.

what is your overall opinion on this change though? ive actually heard some people say that they prefer the meteor since you could actually hit with the backswing hitbox of roys shoulder, and it made ledge hop dairs easier to hit with the meteor. i guess my real question is: will the fact that the spike is much harder to hit with now hurt its kill potential offstage based on the number of times you can reliably connect with it? with the ken combo for instance, if you mess it up and hit with the normal, non spike sweetspot, the opponent gets popped up, and you just put yourself in a terrible position. is it worth the risk? especially when its not even as powerful as marths spike now, and some can survive it after 70-80%

 

[Sethlon]

Dtilt -> dair isn't guaranteed, not because of the hitstun, but because opponents can DI out of it. (Proper DI will actually get rid of most follow ups on dtilt, people just don't DI it correctly.)

I think its fine that its a little harder to land. A bit bit more risk seems a fine expense for making actually worth using offstage IMO, whereas 3.02 dair meteor was useless against any of the cast that had good vertical recovery and were being controlled by a capable player. (Characters like GnW could actually meteor cancel and then punish Roy for landing the meteor!) There will still be times where it will be more worthwhile to use bair or default to fair instead, but that seems like a good thing to me. Depth!

 

[Charmilio]

I think its fine that its a little harder to land. A bit bit more risk seems a fine expense for making actually worth using offstage IMO, whereas 3.02 dair meteor was useless against any of the cast that had good vertical recovery and were being controlled by a capable player. (Characters like GnW could actually meteor cancel and then punish Roy for landing the meteor!)

I had to. Never 5get.

 

[Hellrazor]

I had to. Never 5get.

Dude. I'm trying to repress these memories, damnit. When that happened you could feel the Roy mains' rage across the internet.

Infinity and Beyond, hosted by Tourneylocator. Here's their twitch stream if you want to watch it later tonight. http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

Sweet! Looks like I'll be able to catch it in time.

 

[Taytertot]

I have one video reference to show you for this combo in 3.5 if you'd like to see it.

Thanks for the info and yes id definitely like to see it if thats convenient.

I really like the increased walk speed for roy. I feel that this well give roy a much better positioning ability. Being able to pressure someones space without making a dash commitment is sooo much better especially for small amounts of space where the opponent can easily take back the space they gave up if roy is too slow to take it.

 

[Smolder]

Thanks for the info and yes id definitely like to see it if thats convenient.

I really like the increased walk speed for roy. I feel that this well give roy a much better positioning ability. Being able to pressure someones space without making a dash commitment is sooo much better especially for small amounts of space where the opponent can easily take back the space they gave up if roy is too slow to take it.

http://www.twitch.tv/oldetobeh/b/590722300?t=1h10m26s Here you go man. Didn't take too long to find.

 

[Taytertot]

Congrats Sethlon on your win at IaB today. I'm glad to see some footage of 3.5 roy and see what you've come up with. It looks to me like dair, while not comboing the same way it used to, still has many useful combo starting capability. How do you feel the walk speed increase and other differences are working into roy's gameplan now that you've had the chance to apply it to a tourney?

http://www.twitch.tv/oldetobeh/b/590722300?t=1h10m26s Here you go man. Didn't take too long to find.

Sweet thank you. That was a nice fair to dair. Im sure its situational but maybe the spike combo is more viable then I originally thought.

 

[Sethlon]

It'll have to be more than one tournament before I can accurately say how some of the changes will effect him in the long term, hahah. Overall, I don't think his gameplan will change much.

 

[Taytertot]

fair enough. It seems that its probably just minor gameplan changes like using DED to deal with projectiles sometimes. Being able to walk to control space more often. Either way im glad your holdin it down for the roy mains out there, it was a good first tournament to stream. Also it was cool that you went lucario vs that lucario player, which I assume was to show her some of the things that lucario can do (and also since your roy was a very undisputed victory).

 

[Sethlon]

Bec is someone I've played against a good amount. Both of us enjoy Lucario dittos, so occasionally I'll bust out my Lucario for game 2 when we play.

 

[Taytertot]

oh i see. didnt realize that. I didnt even realize that you had a lucario, I guess your just a master of PM in general.

Im curious about what changes if any you think there will be to roy's MUs (im mostly curious if there are any characters that you think based on the 3.5 changes, have a good MU vs roy). I feel that I havent practiced any bad MUs for roy and dont know how id approach those since they tend to require roy to change his gameplan (i.e. Donkey Kong).

 

[Taytertot]

Ok so Ive been reading the footsies handbook and the 6th chapter goes into close range combat and eventually talks about the difference between gimmicks and tactics in regards to attack situations. gimmicks being only useful once while tactics being situations you can put an opponent in where they have to choose one option or another both of which you have a solution for where neither option can be counter the same way (thus making it so the opponent has to make a 50/50 choice of which option to cover and hope you arent doing the other one). So I was curious what options/situation roy has in that regard?

On a similar note Im having a bit of trouble applying the ideas in the footsies handbook to PM since the handbook is all referring to SF and games like it, which is a bit different. I'd really appreciate any advice if you have time as I realize that these are long questions to answer.

 

[Killablink]

Hello I had a question which isn't really much related to Roy specifically, but what does the -0 on shield in bold for the up air means? Or any number in general? Does that mean it does 0 dmg to the shield? And anyone have more trouble chaining up airs with the change to the ending lag? I feel like I always press jump to early so I end up not even jumping, but it's probably because I'm still new haha, thank you!