Guide Playing with Ph1r3 - Gold Version

[Sundark]

I think patient DD into D tilt heavy roy is best roy

Its kind of lame but I don't know how to be as read heavy as sethlon. I usually just whiff and then sethlon looks x10000 better than me

But at least there's something to be said for how when you and Sethlon start most Roy dittos by crouching right in front of each other and Dtilt back and forth for like five seconds, it never fails to crack me up

 

[Deleted member]

Its actually the optimal option. Heres a guide to the first 20 seconds of Roy Dittos:

Both roys spawn, and they both want to have center/stage control due to how important it is in the Ditto. Both Roys run to the middle of the screen and HAVE to hold down or they'll get D tilted. But since they're both holding down now, true CC eats down tilt from 0 to 60% so now its a mindgame between Down Tilt, Grab, Fsmash, etc. Sometimes we're both so scared to move that we... don't. We've also both countered before.

The Roy who wins this situation then makes the other roy suffer a very painful death. It's sad, @ Sethlon and I both know this pain too well.

 

[Sundark]

Lmao. It doesn't surprise me at all how correct that sounds. I've done the double-counter thing with another Roy at least once before too, it was pretty great. I also very much know the feeling of suffering a death-by-Roy in the ditto. There's another Roy player in my scene (though he's since switched/dualed) who I usually beat, but I definitely feel like he combos the hell out of me way more than I ever do to like, anyone else.

 

[forbidden12]

Hey Sethlon what is the optimal approach when going against a marth player?

 

[Taytertot]

Its actually the optimal option. Heres a guide to the first 20 seconds of Roy Dittos:

Both roys spawn, and they both want to have center/stage control due to how important it is in the Ditto. Both Roys run to the middle of the screen and HAVE to hold down or they'll get D tilted. But since they're both holding down now, true CC eats down tilt from 0 to 60% so now its a mindgame between Down Tilt, Grab, Fsmash, etc. Sometimes we're both so scared to move that we... don't. We've also both countered before.

The Roy who wins this situation then makes the other roy suffer a very painful death. It's sad, @ Sethlon and I both know this pain too well.

what other roy tools can be CC'd in the ditto and, if you know the percents, til when (or if its easier, which moves cant be CC'd other then the obvious Fsmash and Usmash)? I play roy dittos from time to time at the local smash club up here in WA and i generally get s*** on. (though to be entirely fair this is largely due to my completely sub-optimal tech skill, which gets me punished all to often). But nonetheless, CC knowledge would certainly help.

 

[Deleted member]

True CC basically beats all of roys moves at 0%, so your best bet is to grab OR read that they're going to grab and stuff them with an attack. Thats why its basically a guessing game lol

Usmash is multihit, multihit moves can't really be crouch cancelled. Any other scenario you to know CC info on you can test yourself.

 

[Omnifacade]

Do you plan to do anything about match-up knowledge? I struggle a lot against a good Marth because the knockback on his attacks can knock me out of CC even at very low percents, amoung other things that wreck me by him (his better recovery, longer grab, complete lack of delay on most of his attacks, his CC). Thank you

 

[Sethlon]

Unfortunately, managing a match up list against 40 characters that can change each update isn't realistically feasible.

You shouldn't be getting knocked out of true CC at low percents against Marth. He can grab you out of it, and a tip fair/dtilt/fsmash might push you too far away to actually punish, but he shouldn't actually be knocking you down until around mid percents. Dtilt is only good against our CC if he's at tip range; if you can get in deep (with either a wavedash in or a run in -> crouch), you can CC his dtilt and punish with your own, which should lead to meaty combos.

Marth and Roy are both pretty good at comboing eachother. Marth has upthrow off of grabs, but he's also the perfect weight for Roy to mix up dthrow and fthrow and get regrabs or other follow ups.

Marth can recover from farther away than Roy, but his upB isn't nearly as good for intercepting edgeguarding opponents. Don't be afraid to go offstage and hit Marth out of his sideBs / double jumps with fairs or nBs. (Just be sure you're comfortable in knowing how far out you can go, safely.)

In general, the matchup plays with Marth zoning Roy out with quick attacks, and Roy trying to find his way to get in and dish out the hurt. Marth is a little faster than Roy, so be patient when you're looking for opportunities to get into your optimal range.

 

[V]

Are there any match ups in which Marth is substantially preferable over Roy?

 

[Taytertot]

Are there any match ups in which Marth is substantially preferable over Roy?

DK?

 

[CyberZixx]

I feel like Snake could be a match up where marth does much better.

 

[handsockpuppet]

Awesome guide, great work as always Sethlon

 

[Omnifacade]

Unfortunately, managing a match up list against 40 characters that can change each update isn't realistically feasible.

You shouldn't be getting knocked out of true CC at low percents against Marth. He can grab you out of it, and a tip fair/dtilt/fsmash might push you too far away to actually punish, but he shouldn't actually be knocking you down until around mid percents. Dtilt is only good against our CC if he's at tip range; if you can get in deep (with either a wavedash in or a run in -> crouch), you can CC his dtilt and punish with your own, which should lead to meaty combos.

Marth and Roy are both pretty good at comboing each other. Marth has upthrow off of grabs, but he's also the perfect weight for Roy to mix up dthrow and fthrow and get regrabs or other follow ups.

Marth can recover from farther away than Roy, but his upB isn't nearly as good for intercepting edgeguarding opponents. Don't be afraid to go offstage and hit Marth out of his sideBs / double jumps with fairs or nBs. (Just be sure you're comfortable in knowing how far out you can go, safely.)

In general, the matchup plays with Marth zoning Roy out with quick attacks, and Roy trying to find his way to get in and dish out the hurt. Marth is a little faster than Roy, so be patient when you're looking for opportunities to get into your optimal range.

Thank you. Through much practice, I've managed to consistently beat Marths as Roy, and the same can be said for practically any matchup except for Mewtwo and Spacies, but the Mewtwo I played against was number 1 in my state, so I won't think much of that, so, thank you for this comment!

However, I struggle a lot with Spacies as shine just leads into so much often regardless of DI, and I know you can chain grab then 0 to death, but that's only on FD or FoD when platforms are down, and it still requires you to grab them which is tricky as they have persistent hitboxes into shine then they jump away before I'm able to react. If I try to CC, aerial approaching with d-air , n-air, shine, or some combination of aerial into shine makes me combo food.

I have learned about SDI which gives me approximately a snowballs chance in hell against them, but I was wondering if they had an underlying weakness I could exploit in neutral. I know their recovery is lackluster, but starting combos to lead me into an edgeguarding scenario is giving me trouble.

 

[Taytertot]

Thank you. Through much practice, I've managed to consistently beat Marths as Roy, and the same can be said for practically any matchup except for Mewtwo and Spacies, but the Mewtwo I played against was number 1 in my state, so I won't think much of that, so, thank you for this comment!

However, I struggle a lot with Spacies as shine just leads into so much often regardless of DI, and I know you can chain grab then 0 to death, but that's only on FD or FoD when platforms are down, and it still requires you to grab them which is tricky as they have persistent hitboxes into shine then they jump away before I'm able to react. If I try to CC, aerial approaching with d-air , n-air, shine, or some combination of aerial into shine makes me combo food.

I have learned about SDI which gives me approximately a snowballs chance in hell against them, but I was wondering if they had an underlying weakness I could exploit in neutral. I know their recovery is lackluster, but starting combos to lead me into an edgeguarding scenario is giving me trouble.

I dont want to sound like i am criticizing you, but the issue may be that your dash dance game needs some work because spacies love opponents that dont move around much and by not moving much (i.e. trying to CC one of their approaches) youre giving them free reign to jump around trying to screw up your defenses. one of the strongest parts of roy as a character is that he's got a great DD. he covers a lot of space in a single DD and has a lot of threatening options out of it. If you think about the spacies' movesets and options, they have great attacks but they are very much about precision. they dont have huge hitboxes on most of their moves (though bair and nair stay out pretty long) and due to the way they move it doesnt allow them to alter their aerial options much once they set themselves up for a specific one. This may help you a bit in learning to break them down during their offense and get into one of those combos that youre looking for.

not that sethlon isnt a great source of info for any roy MU but your question might be better suited in the matchup thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-do...not-strong-enough-roy-match-up-thread.343930/

I asked a similar question on this thread and was directed by a fellow roy player to ask on the MU thread. ive gotten a lot of great advice there (including advice that has helped me to feel pretty confident in the squirtle MU because there is a local squirtle that i felt i was playing poorly against, the advice broke down the match and the next time i played that squirtle i won most of the games). hopefully you will too. Im sure that my understanding of the spacies MUs could be improved upon and that you will get better advice from other players as i too struggle with them.

if you happen to have any videos of your matches against spacies you should post them on the MU thread with questions, i and others will be more then willing to help you out

 

[RamenKamen]

Only confusing part of this guide for me was. How to DACUS with Roy. You said claw or bumper button to attack. Sorry i ask this but. How exactly do you perform it the. If it cannot be c stick+ z'ed? I have 3.5 btw. Just recently got into PM just because of Roy. (Inb4 Roy is in smash 4 now too) i got pm before be was in it.

 

[Omnifacade]

I dont want to sound like i am criticizing you, but the issue may be that your dash dance game needs some work because spacies love opponents that dont move around much and by not moving much (i.e. trying to CC one of their approaches) youre giving them free reign to jump around trying to screw up your defenses. one of the strongest parts of roy as a character is that he's got a great DD. he covers a lot of space in a single DD and has a lot of threatening options out of it. If you think about the spacies' movesets and options, they have great attacks but they are very much about precision. they dont have huge hitboxes on most of their moves (though bair and nair stay out pretty long) and due to the way they move it doesnt allow them to alter their aerial options much once they set themselves up for a specific one. This may help you a bit in learning to break them down during their offense and get into one of those combos that youre looking for.

not that sethlon isnt a great source of info for any roy MU but your question might be better suited in the matchup thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-do...not-strong-enough-roy-match-up-thread.343930/

I asked a similar question on this thread and was directed by a fellow roy player to ask on the MU thread. ive gotten a lot of great advice there (including advice that has helped me to feel pretty confident in the squirtle MU because there is a local squirtle that i felt i was playing poorly against, the advice broke down the match and the next time i played that squirtle i won most of the games). hopefully you will too. Im sure that my understanding of the spacies MUs could be improved upon and that you will get better advice from other players as i too struggle with them.

if you happen to have any videos of your matches against spacies you should post them on the MU thread with questions, i and others will be more then willing to help you out

I think you're entirely right now that you mention my trying to CC their approaches. Usually if I can't CC approaches or get a grab or tilt off, I suffer horribly with landing anything. I'm new to smashboards, (this is only like my 3rd post ever) , so do you have any referances to an amazing guide just on DD or anything of the sorts? I'm sure there is more to it than can be described briefly over a reply, so yeah.
But thank you for the response, I'm looking into improving my movement right now!

 

[Taytertot]

I think you're entirely right now that you mention my trying to CC their approaches. Usually if I can't CC approaches or get a grab or tilt off, I suffer horribly with landing anything. I'm new to smashboards, (this is only like my 3rd post ever) , so do you have any referances to an amazing guide just on DD or anything of the sorts? I'm sure there is more to it than can be described briefly over a reply, so yeah.
But thank you for the response, I'm looking into improving my movement right now!

im sure theres a lot more info on dash dancing and how to use it but heres a thread that explains at least some of it. You'll have to read many of the posts as dash dancing is a simple tech but it can be difficult to describe why and what you should be doing with it and so the different posts might help to formulate a full understanding of its application.
http://smashboards.com/threads/what-makes-a-good-dash-dance.335419/

my other suggestion would be to watch matches of top melee and pm players and pay specific attention to their DDing and why its working or why it didnt work in a given situation. Marth, roy, cpt. falcon, and several others (basically any character who has a fast dash as well as a long distance dash is going to boast a really good DD game) are very DD heavy in their neutral game so that might help you narrow down your search.

 

[ShadowKing]

How do you land the spike/meteor with Roy?

 

[Taytertot]

How do you land the spike/meteor with Roy?

Its a spike.

There isnt exactly a simple way to land the spike. dtilt can combo into the spike near the edge but its dependent on your opponents DI since the spike hitbox is literally about the size of his shoulder. you might be able to combo dair (middle of the sword hitbox; it hits upward) into the spike dair but theyd have to be at a kind of specific percent id assume maybe somewhere around 70% but youd have to test that. there is a way to combo fair into dair but against its kinda DI dependent. The only other way i can think of to get the spike (offstage so that youre taking a stock) would be to catch your opponent as they are recovering and the way that you do that would depend on the character as well as how poorly your opponent recovers. If they recover somewhat high, trying to land onstage, then you could just jump up and very slightly out to ensure the spike hitbox as long as you space yourself so that they are kind of above you (with maybe their feet touching roy's shoulder ideally). If they are recovering low then you'd have to grab the ledge early and do a ledge drop double jump dair while moving back onstage, which might work.

All in all the spike hitbox is hard to use as a kill move, i dont personally find it very reliable due to where the hitbox is and more so how small it is.

Edit:Or were you talking about the third hit of DED xx^?

 

[Jink8]

How do you know you are gonna land the sweetspot Dair?

 

[Taytertot]

How do you know you are gonna land the sweetspot Dair?

unfortunately i doubt theres a better answer then that youll just get a feel for it after you hit with it enough times. as far as the actually spike hitbox goes it exists on roy's shoulder and if you hit with any part of the sword hitbox (sourspot) then youll only hit the sourspot. so basically you need to rise up to them to land the spike and catch them with only roy's shoulder which requires pretty good spacing.
one thing that can help with landing it if the situation allows for it is that roy swings his sword from down and in front of himself first and moves it back behind him so if you get your opponent to be kinda behind and slightly above you then the blade hitboxes that prevent getting the spike wont be near your opponent when roy starts his dair and that can make it easier to hit the spike but you wont always be in a situation to do that.

 

[Sethlon]

Sethlon updated Playing with Ph1r3 with a new update entry:

Playing with Ph1r3 - Gold Version

Update! (01/04/2016); Gold version is live! Added sections for Dash Dancing and Pivot Fsmash under "Fundamentals". Updated hitboxes for attacks. Minor adjustments across the board. Cleaned up some wording and formatting, and removed a bunch of information that is no longer relevant. Most likely to be the last update.

Update! (12/16/2014); Added some mentions for how some moves changed for the 3.5 update! Notes are for grab, uair, dair, DED x>, xxV, xxxV, Flareblade,...

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[Sethlon]

Sethlon updated Playing with Ph1r3 - Gold Version with a new update entry:

2023 Update - Reuploading Threat Zone images

Seems like the images for threat zones are still here in the post, but aren't being displayed for some reason?? Odd. Well, here those are again
Roy threat zones:
View attachment 373665

Metaknight threat zones:
View attachment 373666

Read the rest of this update entry...