Playing against Sheik?

[ZeroBlindDragon]

Alright! I am sure some of you remember my post on the "Playing againt Marth" thread. I was able to overcome this match-up thanks to your help. I am really thankful for that. However, there is another match-up I seem to have trouble with : Sheik. I also seem to have a lot of trouble understanding it. VanZ's thread and various others on Smash Boards seem to be fairly outdated. I also read Armada's guide and his input has been really useful. However, he does not cover some of my problems.


1) Sheik waits for me to perform a float canceled aerial from afar, then rushes in to grab me.

My plan for the neutral game is usually to pressure my opponent with float canceled aerials and to bait an approach. However, Sheik often manages to find a breach through my "defenses" to grab me. I am unsure what my following move should be after a float canceled aerial. Armada mentions it is a big mistake to use down smash, but I do not know what I should do instead. Also, I am not sure if I should pressure Sheik's shield. I am afraid to be grabbed before I do. Does Peach have guaranteed chances to grab Sheik after she performs a float canceled forward aerial on her shield?

My opponent sometimes wavedashes backward, predicting a float canceled aerial on his shield, then proceeds to rush in to grab me.


2) Sheik uses back aerials to keep me away.

Self-explanatory. Sheik loves to use back aerials to prevent any approach from me.


3) Sheik throws needles at me when I try to run away to pull turnips, effectively outcamping me.

Turnips seem quite important in the match-up. When I feel pressured or cornered (back aerials), I like to distance myself to pull turnips. However, my opponent also does the same to throw needles at me. Then, I give up and resume by baiting neutral game.


4) Sheik is playing agressive. Pressuring my shield using forward aerials with various follow-ups.

Forward aerial > Down smash
Forward aerial > Forward tilt > Forward tilt
Forward aerial > Wavedash forward > Grab

These combos seem quite effective against me and I am unsure how to punish them. My opponent spaces me appropriately when using forward aerial so that I am unable to shield-grab him.


Thank you so much for your help, guys. =)

 

[MisterCTM]

I'm at school, so I don't have time to respond to all this, but if you haven't, read Armada's guide for this matchup. http://www.meleeitonme.com/armadas-guide-to-peach-vs-sheik/

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

I also read Armada's guide and his input has been really useful. However, he does not cover some of my problems.

As stated in my main post, I already read Armada's guide. I just need more help. But thank you for your reply anyway, @ MisterCTM ! =)

 

[MisterCTM]

As stated in my main post, I already read Armada's guide. I just need more help. But thank you for your reply anyway, @ MisterCTM ! =)

Sorry, I ****ing suck! I just sorta skimmed the first paragraph, cause I didn't want to get on trouble for being on smashboards in school lol.

Okay so regarding your points:

1) Well, the main problem here is the fact that you're kinda playing the neutral wrong. For Peach, unless you're on a small stage like Yoshi's or FoD (not so much as Yoshi's though), your neutral is basically dash dance to create a safe distance/enviroment to pull a turnip, then the whole neutral changes. Once you have a turnip, you're gonna wanna mix up with a couple options, and these are only if the opponent doesn't approach. You can wave-dash dash dance trying to bait something out from your opponent, then throw turnip and follow up with an aerial or dash attack, which can lead into other stuff depending on your opponent. Or, you could go on the aggressive and throw the turnip to cover your approach, which would be either dash attack or run in with a FC nair or maybe fair or bair. This is only 2 choices, there are many different ways to play a safe neutral, however just sitting there doing FC moves from afar to bait them is not even close to safe, as you have found out. Go watch and study some Armada or MacD videos and see how they do it, watching other people is generally easier to copy then to read about it, imo.

If you can do a well spaced FC Fair on shield, they will be in hitstun long enough to be able to grab them. To pressure shield you can you FC nair or bair, I don't know if that makes them in shield stun long enough to grab however if they try and do anything oos (at least sheik, maybe not other characters) they will be hit, so it is semi-safe.

2) Dash dance, then when they bair, wavedash away and punish with a FC nair or bair. Your bair beats sheik's bair if you space it correct, i believe. At the very least, they're both stupid big hitboxes and you should be able to get in there. Or, probably the better of the two, get a turnip, dash dance wavedash to bait out bair, then throw turnip and then follow up off turnip.

3) Yeah shiek is a little ***** and has a better projectile than us. Now, in this matchup, you wanna go somewhere that has platforms, something like dreamland or battlefield. Be nimble and use the platforms to get away from shiek and pull a turnip. Additionally, you can just kinda jump over the needles, waveland on platform, pull turnip. Shiek isn't gonna be able to get to you from there, but she'll be close, so you're gonna wanna be holding the trigger as you're pulling the turnip. You should be fine though, you've just gotta experiment with it.

4) FC Nair out of shield should work after the dsmash, or wavedash oos into grab after dsmash. Shiek's dsmash has a lot of lag that you can punish for them using it as shield pressure. dmsash on shield is a free punish for you.

Wavedash away between the ftilts. I'm not sure why a shiek would be using ftilt as shield pressure, because it doesn't lead into anything. If you wanna be a cool guy and are technical enough, dsmash oos between the ftilts for the lulz. Effective if you can do it and kinda hilarious, especially if your opponent doesn't know she can dsmash oos.

FC Nair. FC Nair comes out if you do it perfect, in 7 frames. You are not able to do anything after a wavedash for 10 frames. You could also do DJC Nair if you have a hard time/can't do the FC Nair (I would recommend learning FC aerials oos, but don't use it in tourny if you can't do it fairly consistently).

I should also say that if they are pressuring your shield from behind, you can do a FC Bair OOS instead, slightly slower but not by much iirc

Hope this helps!

 

[Dreyvas]

Additionally, you can just kinda jump over the needles, waveland on platform, pull turnip.

You can actually land with none of the lag you'd get from wavelanding by using the dip in the second jump to land instantly. Just go to a stage with platforms and practice it for a bit, it's pretty easy to do consistently.

 

[MisterCTM]

You can actually land with none of the lag you'd get from wavelanding by using the dip in the second jump to land instantly. Just go to a stage with platforms and practice it for a bit, it's pretty easy to do consistently.

I would agree that this method is probably perferable, and not too difficult after a while, but I'd disagree with tech that has a 2-frame window being "pretty easy to do consistently."

 

[Dreyvas]

I had no idea it was that tight. Might have just been a fluke when I was practicing it in the lab in that case. I'll have to experiment further.

 

[MisterCTM]

I had no idea it was that tight. Might have just been a fluke when I was practicing it in the lab in that case. I'll have to experiment further.

I didn't mean to say you're wrong, modern Peaches will need to be able to do it fairly consistent, but it is pretty tight and not incredibly easy for a while, and least that is what I and a lot of Peaches I've talked to have said. Maybe it was a fluke, maybe not, I don't think it is incredibly pivitol in tournament play besides maybe at like MacD level play, so idk. The point is: Learn it OP, but don't get frustraited if you can't do it right from the start.

EDIT: Looked it up, it's 4 frames, not 2, my b. Still tight though

 

[_umbra_]

1) Sheik waits for me to perform a float canceled aerial from afar, then rushes in to grab me.
It typically isn't a good idea to float in from afar against sheik; she's got too many options to punish that. If you float in trying to fair, she can slap you first or just wait... You can shield pressure sheik successfully, but it's better to do it with quick nairs/slaps/dashdances on the ground. Having a turnip help cover your approach can be really helpful as well. Overall, I recommend staying grounded and mix a good dd game with quick fc aerials and some turnips. In particular, djc turnip throws are a good mindgame and can cover a lot of distance; might be worth a try against sheik.

2) Sheik uses back aerials to keep me away.
This one's tough to deal with. Try some shieldwd stuff and mix up your turnip game. The combination is usually enough to pressure her into ****ing up her spacing, or just gives you stage control. Don't try to beat it in the air; bair can probably trade with it, but she'll probably hit the ground first and press her advantage.

3) Sheik throws needles at me when I try to run away to pull turnips, effectively outcamping me.
Don't run away and pull turnips. Sounds asinine, but it's an honest answer. You'll have more opportunities to get turnips after she's been hit or when she ****s up her spacing; don't feel the need to run away and get one. You can also use platforms to get them and keep moving; just hit downb quickly as you dash or moonwalk over the ledge and she'll do a turnip pull while she falls. Overall, don't expect her to give you too much time to pluck turnips. You're gonna have to **** with her and get her in the air or something to get them safely.

4) Sheik is playing agressive. Pressuring my shield using forward aerials with various follow-ups.
This is really hard to deal with; a lot of old school sheiks used to love fair->duck->jab/dtilt or things like that. There are a few good solutions here, all of which involve conceding to sheik for the moment. You'll pretty much never get to shield grab her unless they **** up their spacing really hard or forget to hit buttons entirely. Lightshielding can be good if you see it coming... Most importantly, look for patterns in their shield pressure. If they always fair -> attack, then just hold your shield until after the attack. If you're not sure, or if they're goddamned unreadable, buffer a roll after the fair hits your shield and get the hell out of there. There are a few different options, but it basically boils down to this: Either hold shield and wait for a chance to punish, or buffer roll and concede for the moment.

Some other tricks that might be helpful:
-Your bair trades with almost everything sheik can do in the air. M2K showed me this a while back, and there aren't many ways to get you if you recover with a well-timed bair. It works offensively too; I'm not entirely sure why, but fc bairs seem to body sheik.
-When you get a hit on her, press your advantage. Sheik has trouble recovering from an initial hit; just avoid the grab and keep her under pressure when you can. Groundfloated bairs can be helpful for this, that hitbox is huge and covers a few different options.
-When she's offstage and has no jump, just grab the ledge. If you're under 100 and she has to upb to the stage, you can dsmash her before she can move. Some sheiks are able to cc the first hit and have the second hit them in, but it's a lot of damage and can give you stage control anyway.
-I've found that sheiks like to recover juuuuust low enough to avoid turnip throws. Try a weakthrow here and there. It works surprisingly often, and at worst keeps them honest.

Hope some of this helps! ^_^

 

[Dr. Cannon]

1) Sheik waits for me to perform a float canceled aerial from afar, then rushes in to grab me.

Try jabbing right as you land to interrupt her grabs, or doing a spotdodge before your dsmash. This also works with anybody else trying to dash dance grab you. They can respond by waiting out the jabs or dmash and then grabbing in the lag.

4) Sheik is playing agressive. Pressuring my shield using forward aerials with various follow-ups.

Forward aerial > Forward tilt > Forward tilt

Make sure you are DIing the first Ftilt away so that you don't get hit by the second ftilt. After that DI up, because you know they are going to fair. Also, if you can, instead of shielding when you see Sheik coming in with a delayed fair, interrupt her fair with a nair. Sheik has a sucky short hop, so I think this works best if they are just trying to short hop in with a delayed fair. If the Sheik is using an early fair, your response is WD back dtilt, which can lead to nair or weak bair or jump to a platform -> upsmash.

Also, I disagree with MisterCTM about wanting platforms. think that platforms in this matchup are really good for sheik. Especially the Battlefield platforms, which are basically the perfect height for Sheik. If you are on FD and want to pull a turnip in neutral, sorry. It's not totally essential to pull turnips if you are trying to camp sheik. You can set up camp with bairs and dash dancing.

The thing I hate most about Sheik (besides her guaranteed grab follow ups) is her platform needle camping. If Sheik has 3 or more needles stored, and she throws them down at you from a platform, she can fall of the platform and get a guaranteed grab. If you shield the 3 needles, she can grab you in the shield stun, and if you get hit by the needles, she can grab you in the hit stun. So watch out for that. If you are right in front of Sheik's platform at the wrong time, you're SOL.

Hope this helps.